Rhino''s Review: The Assessment of Fire Video

[Rhino]

Date: 8/10/2006 7:44:02 PM
Author: Pricescope
Thanks, Rhino. I''m trying to reproduce this ''dark body'' phenomena.

When you filmed diamonds in direct sunlight, was it outside under the sky or inside by a window? Where were the sun, diamonds, and camera in relation to each other?

Ok... I shot the footage a few months ago so I''m jogging the memory a bit here.

It was outside under a clear blue sky with the sun directly hitting the stones. The sun was up and to my right as I was filming. It wasn''t high noon but it was not sun down either ... ie the sun was not on the horizon (0 degree) but more around a 55-60 degree angle from the horizon. The camera was approx. 3/4 of an arms length away from the stones.

Leo ... if you''d like I could/would mail you the leaker along with one of our sig stones so you can see the very comparison I was drawing. I''d just have to check with the boss-lady first.

Peace,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/9/2006 6:07:54 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/9/2006 5:09:58 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Simple question Rhino:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

Good question! Actually I don''t look at stones in dealers offices anymore.

I have everything shipped and do my analysis here in our lab where the views are better and with more varieties.

However, if I am at a dealers office I''ll generally use whatever lighting they have realizing how the view I am seeing will translate to more normal circmstances. If you recall in my vid on the subject of brightness I cover diamond dealer lighting and the limitations of that environment (dependant on the backdrop). Also, if I know I''ll be visiting dealers I''ll generally have a pocket ASET and Ideal-Scope with me as well. Over the course of time a focus of my personal studies mate, was studying how reflector images translate to face up appearance and learning what I can and can''t determine by using them. Admittedly I had made some very expensive mistakes when I first started using a FireScope and I''m talking about any particular brand either but of diamonds in general.

Peace,

Ever thought of standing for politics Rhino?

You have a real gift mate!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/9/2006 4:52:46 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/9/2006 2:14:33 PM
Author: Rhino

To settle forever the issue of whether I am using the DD correctly or not why don''t you just contact any of the research gemologists at GIA and ask them? Point them to any of the material I''ve published (video or photography) and simply ask Garry. That is, if you are sincerely interested in the truth and my integrity in reporting what I am seeing as accurately as I know how.

Regards,

Rhino I have no need to ask your peers if you are using Diamond Dock from the correct viewing position when i can see in your photo''s and video''s that you are not.

Perhaps you have not seen the updated manual. I am not using it incorrectly. Never had.
Now lets have fun with this and continue to grow and learn.

Thanks for sending the new manual Rhino.

It shows the same graphics with the same angle, but they removed the recomended angle. They obviously watch this space .
I also noticed they beefed up the part about turning off or dimming the room lights.
You are not still using DD in your store are you?

 

[Serg]

Leonid,
Very good film with example of adaptation brightness level .For same FOV camera and Human eye adaptation are similar .Human FOV is bigger usually ( And include more dark objects), it is reason Why diamond could be more bright for Human

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/9/2006 3:13:04 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/9/2006 10:01:41 AM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 8/8/2006 4:59:04 PM
Author: Rhino

Ie. If you take a leaky diamond and place it against a black background the stone appears dark ... you can see through those leaky facets to the background behind it. If you take a leaky diamond and allow backlighting (like in tweezers or a transparent/translucent tray) the stone appears lighter.

If so, then why does the video Leonid posted show the exact opposite?

When the white paper moves into place as the background, the diamond takes on a dark look in the middle. When it''s moved away leaving a dark background, the diamond does appear whiter/lighter/brighter......as Garry suggested.

What accounts for this?

Hi Alj,

This thread is funny because different types of lighting are being discussed as well as different types of backdrops. I totally understand Leo''s graphic/video and Sergey''s as well. There are certain commonalities in what I''m showing as well. Let me illustrate and hope this helps clear things up in your mind.

Firstly ... my video was specifically showing fire as observed in spot lighting environments.

In environments where strong spot lighting exists ideal cut diamonds takes on a darker body appearance, however the flashes of light will generally always be stronger and happening at a greater frequency. You can clearly see this phenomena in each of the video scenes I''ve recorded. I''m attaching a photograph I just took in our store that is taken in spot lighting. In this photgraph you can plainly see the darker body appearance of the H&A stone. The leaky stone takes on a lighter apperance.

The reason for this doesn''t require a PHD in rocket science. It''s rather simple to understand when you understand how diamonds react/handle light.

The reason the ideal cut takes on a darker body appearance is because it is blocking back light and generally only reflecting what is in front of the stone. This same phenomena (similar) is seen in IS images becuase in an IS image, none of the backlight is seen through the crown of the diamond. The red/blacks you see in IS images are strictly reflections from above. Not below. Only in leaky diamonds will you see what is behind the diamond. In the case of IS images it will be the white backlighting ... in spot lighting environments it will be light from behind the diamond.

I''ll continue to answer in my next post with another graphic.

In this image you can plainly see the darker body appearance of the H&A and the lighter appearance of the non ideal. This is what is observed in normal viewing conditions and is generally confused with both the issues of *brightness* and/or *color*.

You with me so far?

Regards,

re:The reason the ideal cut takes on a darker body appearance is because it is blocking back light and generally only reflecting what is in front of the stone.

Rhino, It is not most important reason why Ideal diamond could be dark in DD. You have missed main my and Garry Explanations.

Just FYI .

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/10/2006 9:21:53 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/9/2006 6:07:54 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/9/2006 5:09:58 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Simple question Rhino:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

Good question! Actually I don''t look at stones in dealers offices anymore.

I have everything shipped and do my analysis here in our lab where the views are better and with more varieties.

However, if I am at a dealers office I''ll generally use whatever lighting they have realizing how the view I am seeing will translate to more normal circmstances. If you recall in my vid on the subject of brightness I cover diamond dealer lighting and the limitations of that environment (dependant on the backdrop). Also, if I know I''ll be visiting dealers I''ll generally have a pocket ASET and Ideal-Scope with me as well. Over the course of time a focus of my personal studies mate, was studying how reflector images translate to face up appearance and learning what I can and can''t determine by using them. Admittedly I had made some very expensive mistakes when I first started using a FireScope and I''m talking about any particular brand either but of diamonds in general.

Peace,

Ever thought of standing for politics Rhino?

You have a real gift mate!

LMAO... thanks!

No thanks on political front though.

I have enough on my plate as it is.

Kind regards,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/10/2006 9:41:07 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/9/2006 4:52:46 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/9/2006 2:14:33 PM
Author: Rhino

To settle forever the issue of whether I am using the DD correctly or not why don''t you just contact any of the research gemologists at GIA and ask them? Point them to any of the material I''ve published (video or photography) and simply ask Garry. That is, if you are sincerely interested in the truth and my integrity in reporting what I am seeing as accurately as I know how.

Regards,

Rhino I have no need to ask your peers if you are using Diamond Dock from the correct viewing position when i can see in your photo''s and video''s that you are not.

Perhaps you have not seen the updated manual. I am not using it incorrectly. Never had.
Now lets have fun with this and continue to grow and learn.

Thanks for sending the new manual Rhino.

It shows the same graphics with the same angle, but they removed the recomended angle. They obviously watch this space .
I also noticed they beefed up the part about turning off or dimming the room lights.
You are not still using DD in your store are you?

You''re welcome.

LOL... actually they changed the manual before this thread. The old pdf I sent you a while back had been changed when they started shipping them and I never bothered to ask or get it. Since this thread brought up the subject I thought I''d ask them for the proper pdf.

Regarding the dimming of room lights, of course it''s not practical to turn off all the lights in my store, however I do turn the DD away from the window and I have a switch where I can turn off the overhead spot lighting at the counter I keep the DD on. For experimentation reasons when I have it in our office I''ve viewed stones with the lights completely off with just the DD lighting on. A little ambient office light is no big whoop when viewing in the office, and little bits of ambient spot lighting (on the floor) doesn''t alter the viewing to any degree that would throw an assessment off.

If you''re ever out this way Garry you''re welcome to come play.

Peace,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/11/2006 3:08:37 PM
Author: Serg
re:The reason the ideal cut takes on a darker body appearance is because it is blocking back light and generally only reflecting what is in front of the stone.

Rhino, It is not most important reason why Ideal diamond could be dark in DD. You have missed main my and Garry Explanations.

Just FYI .

Just a question for clarification Serg. Do you think that ideal cut diamonds go dark under the DD in daylighting or direct spot lighting?

Regards,

 

[InsaneMembrane]

Garry,
You seem to know alot about diamonds, but you also seem very annoying. Dont try to pick every single thing apart to prove that you are the diamond master. Jonathan knows his stuff, dont be jealous, maybe with some hard work and a good personality you will have a business and following like Jonathan does. You are obviously looking to prove to Jonathan and the people on here that you are in some way "better". And its obvious to everyone that you are an insecure envious person.

later.

 

[strmrdr]

IM you owe me a new keyboard!
pepsi out of the nose is not good for em.

 

[InsaneMembrane]

Sorry
I owe you one, but that had to be done.

 

[DaniGirl]

so true insane!

 

[Rod]

And Insane, you owe me an Ichiban as I read this from my favorite Sushi Bar. But, I got to ask you. Are you a professional in the industry? With only 40 posts on PS, I wonder if you realize the value of being able to see the best of the industry disagree with each other. Personally, from what I've seen, Rhino and Garry are way more knowledgeable than most of us here on PS (myself for sure). They are both well respected as experts in the field of diamonds. From being around here long enough, I have learned that Gary runs a successful business in Australia and created one of the most useful tools in the buisness called the Holloway Cut Advisor. This tool aids us mere mortals to gain better insight into a stone's possible performance. Rhino is also part of a very successful organization, Good Old Gold. He has spent, again from what I've seen, countless hours making education tools available to us mere mortals. We have in both individuals, expert knowledge, with an interest in helping people buy better diamonds with better tools and knowledge.

What we mere mortals see though, is that Gary and Rhino, don't always share the same view and they occassionally (ok often) push each other. Sometimes they push each other in not the most polite ways, but mostly I think they manage to show some level of respect for each other.

For me, I learn from their difference of opinion. I suspect they may annoy each other a bit. But they're the experts and for any industry to progress, not everyone will always agree. It's almost like being able to watch what happens between closed doors in a board room when two parties are not in agreement, but you know they both love what they do and want us mortals to have the best facts we can.

Now, if you are an expert on these subjects, I hope you will enlighten us. Perhaps, I have no right to suggest that you shouldn't get in the middle of such an academic discussion in the way that you did, amusing as it was. But for me, I appreciate both Gary and Rhino and I sincerely hope they will continue their discussions to the benefit of those less knowledgeable. Like myself.

Nuff said. I welcome your point of view and hope you can appreciate mine.

 

[pricescope]

Thank you, Rod, for your nice words . Appreciate it very much indeed.

InsaneMembrane, sometimes people like to jump in and teach Garry good manners...

I must assure you that Garry is the least annoying person I know. He''s also the least selfish and the most generous person sharing his knowledge for free with consumers and pushing the industry to change for the better...

Being an Aussie, he might be a bit direct for Americans and have lower tolerance for nonsense than me but I wish that would be the worst quality of any member here.

You might want to check his thread in Who''s Who: his 7,400 posts on this forum, etc... I hope it will help you to know him better.

Have a nice weekend

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/11/2006 9:25:30 PM
Author: Pricescope


Being an Aussie, he might be a bit direct for Americans and have lower tolerance for nonsense....

This is one of the reasons I most love Garry......no BS.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I will just say that I have the greatest respect for Jonathan because he treats people with respect. I wish everyone could follow that example.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/11/2006 3:19:53 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/10/2006 9:21:53 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/9/2006 6:07:54 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/9/2006 5:09:58 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Simple question Rhino:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

Good question! Actually I don''t look at stones in dealers offices anymore.

I have everything shipped and do my analysis here in our lab where the views are better and with more varieties.

However, if I am at a dealers office I''ll generally use whatever lighting they have realizing how the view I am seeing will translate to more normal circmstances. If you recall in my vid on the subject of brightness I cover diamond dealer lighting and the limitations of that environment (dependant on the backdrop). Also, if I know I''ll be visiting dealers I''ll generally have a pocket ASET and Ideal-Scope with me as well. Over the course of time a focus of my personal studies mate, was studying how reflector images translate to face up appearance and learning what I can and can''t determine by using them. Admittedly I had made some very expensive mistakes when I first started using a FireScope and I''m talking about any particular brand either but of diamonds in general.

Peace,

Ever thought of standing for politics Rhino?

You have a real gift mate!

LMAO... thanks!

No thanks on political front though.

I have enough on my plate as it is.

Kind regards,

Then please answer the question Rhino. If you will come along with us you will find some interesting and educational info that will help explain consumers who are faced with this https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-cut-grade-vs-hca-on-this-stone.49305/ - a 4.16P 35C steep Deep GIA Excellent.

Here is the question again:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/11/2006 6:18:31 PM
Author: InsaneMembrane
Garry,
You seem to know alot about diamonds, but you also seem very annoying. Dont try to pick every single thing apart to prove that you are the diamond master. Jonathan knows his stuff, dont be jealous, maybe with some hard work and a good personality you will have a business and following like Jonathan does. You are obviously looking to prove to Jonathan and the people on here that you are in some way ''better''. And its obvious to everyone that you are an insecure envious person.

later.

Dear InsaneMembrane,

It is because Jonathon is very active here and has an excellent and well read tutorial on his website that it seems to be important that we help him understand issues where myself and others know he is NQR (not quite right).

I know that 8 years ago when i first joined discussion forums like this that I have (and continue to) learn a lot about diamond cut and the optics and effects we ourselves play in the game.

I appreciate you and others may find me a little hard on Rhino - but he has a very thick skin (hide?) and it often we need to hit him very hard for him to change his non-secular opinions.

He usually comes around - visa vee his opinion on Brillianscope etc.

He will be in San diego soon and I hope that before then he will have come to understand some things.

But for you info - during these debates I learn more thru trying to explain to him concepts that are hard to grasp - like "why do diamonds look dark in daylight - especially well cut ones?"

So if it is a bit rough for you - then dont read it.
don''t think I am jeleous either - I have a great life - i am blessed with great friends and a very successful business and a top loyal staff. I do this stuff to destract me and keep out of their hair. They are finalists in 3 sections of the Australian jewel Design Awards agian this Biannum.
Or hate me.
I can take it.
I guess I have a Rhino hide too

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/11/2006 3:35:22 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/11/2006 3:08:37 PM
Author: Serg
re:The reason the ideal cut takes on a darker body appearance is because it is blocking back light and generally only reflecting what is in front of the stone.

Rhino, It is not most important reason why Ideal diamond could be dark in DD. You have missed main my and Garry Explanations.

Just FYI .

Just a question for clarification Serg. Do you think that ideal cut diamonds go dark under the DD in daylighting or direct spot lighting?

Regards,

Rhino,

I did not tell what " ideal cut diamonds go dark under the DD " Please do not change my statements.
It could be dark( Darker than very bad diamonds in same time)

This phenomena depends from proportions ideal diamond( some ideal diamond go to dark, some ideal diamond do not go to dark. It is main problem DD), position diamond and viewer and position additional light. It definitely could be in DD daylight. I did not study DD direct spot light, but sure what this phenomena is possible for DD direct spot light too.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/11/2006 11:54:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/11/2006 3:19:53 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/10/2006 9:21:53 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/9/2006 6:07:54 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/9/2006 5:09:58 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Simple question Rhino:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

Good question! Actually I don''t look at stones in dealers offices anymore.

I have everything shipped and do my analysis here in our lab where the views are better and with more varieties.

However, if I am at a dealers office I''ll generally use whatever lighting they have realizing how the view I am seeing will translate to more normal circmstances. If you recall in my vid on the subject of brightness I cover diamond dealer lighting and the limitations of that environment (dependant on the backdrop). Also, if I know I''ll be visiting dealers I''ll generally have a pocket ASET and Ideal-Scope with me as well. Over the course of time a focus of my personal studies mate, was studying how reflector images translate to face up appearance and learning what I can and can''t determine by using them. Admittedly I had made some very expensive mistakes when I first started using a FireScope and I''m talking about any particular brand either but of diamonds in general.

Peace,

Ever thought of standing for politics Rhino?

You have a real gift mate!

LMAO... thanks!

No thanks on political front though.

I have enough on my plate as it is.

Kind regards,

Then please answer the question Rhino. If you will come along with us you will find some interesting and educational info that will help explain consumers who are faced with this https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-cut-grade-vs-hca-on-this-stone.49305/ - a 4.16P 35C steep Deep GIA Excellent.

Here is the question again:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

In a nutshell, when i''m looking at diamonds at a dealers office (which honestly has been quite a long time since i do it here) I bring along a master stone of mine to compare it to and examine and compare it under their standard office lighting *away* from the strong fluoro desk lamp.

Regarding the example at the above link that angle combo looks to be perhaps the max angle combo allowed in their Ex scheme. I haven''t seen one yet so I will not comment favorably or unfavorably against something I have not seen nor am familiar with. I''ll tell ya I''m skeptical, but until its in my hands, only then would I make a judgement call. BTW on a personal level, I don''t purchase or approve all GIA Ex OR AGS Ideal''s. I have my own standards which I adhere to that happen to fall within the zenith of both labs top grades. If I ever deviate from that I''d have to do some very hard thinking because it has generally been a standard I have always maintained even before GIA and AGS came out with their new systems.

Hope that helps and clarifies.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/12/2006 4:04:22 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/11/2006 11:54:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


Then please answer the question Rhino. If you will come along with us you will find some interesting and educational info that will help explain consumers who are faced with this https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-cut-grade-vs-hca-on-this-stone.49305/ - a 4.16P 35C steep Deep GIA Excellent.

Here is the question again:

When you are at a dealers office and looking at diamonds do you hold the stone you are considering under the dealers fluoro light to asses its cut performance? Or do you hold it under the lip of the desk and or turn away from the desk?

1. In a nutshell, when i''m looking at diamonds at a dealers office (which honestly has been quite a long time since i do it here) I bring along a master stone of mine to compare it to and examine and compare it under their standard office lighting *away* from the strong fluoro desk lamp.

2. Regarding the example at the above link that angle combo looks to be perhaps the max angle combo allowed in their Ex scheme. I haven''t seen one yet so I will not comment favorably or unfavorably against something I have not seen nor am familiar with. I''ll tell ya I''m skeptical, but until its in my hands, only then would I make a judgement call. BTW on a personal level, I don''t purchase or approve all GIA Ex OR AGS Ideal''s. I have my own standards which I adhere to that happen to fall within the zenith of both labs top grades. If I ever deviate from that I''d have to do some very hard thinking because it has generally been a standard I have always maintained even before GIA and AGS came out with their new systems.

Hope that helps and clarifies.

1. thank you Rhino - that is what I have observed in almost all cases of watching other buyers - it is instinctive and not something people even know they are doing. The closeness of the light and the usually white back ground of stone pads makes the stones look dark. The light also comes from a narrow feild of view. You might find the next time you are there that some cuts of diamonds look better under the desk lamp than others. This is usually true of diamnds that would show more green in their ASET images.

2. in the ''light'' of our 1. discussion - can you see why GIA would give a diamond like the one in the link an excellent cut grade - it is almost 1/2 green under ASET- since it is very clear in the Foundation article that GIA Cut Study Team studied dealer environ''s and desgined a portable consistent dealer lighting environ.

But when you stand tall, and or use it with additional shop lighting - or in your office where I can see from your photo - you have a twin fluoro light coming over each of your two shoulders - can you understand that you are getting a different result - a better result - more likely to be a good result - thn the Survey team got when they made people sit down in an otherwise dimmed room.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/12/2006 2:37:48 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 8/11/2006 3:35:22 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/11/2006 3:08:37 PM
Author: Serg
re:The reason the ideal cut takes on a darker body appearance is because it is blocking back light and generally only reflecting what is in front of the stone.

Rhino, It is not most important reason why Ideal diamond could be dark in DD. You have missed main my and Garry Explanations.

Just FYI .

Just a question for clarification Serg. Do you think that ideal cut diamonds go dark under the DD in daylighting or direct spot lighting?

Regards,

Rhino,

I did not tell what '' ideal cut diamonds go dark under the DD '' Please do not change my statements.
It could be dark( Darker than very bad diamonds in same time)

Hi Sergey,

I did not change any statement. I''m simply asking a question so I can better understand exactly what it is you''re thinking regarding DD lighting. The subject of this thread is about diamond appearance under spot lighting environments. Your graphic was introduced to the conversation and no information has been shared regarding the diamonds being photographed, the temperature of or type of lighting etc. Hence my question.

Do you think that ideal cut diamonds go dark under the DD in daylighting or direct spot lighting?

Before we proceed with our conversation I want to know what lighting environment you''re talking about. Diffuse daylight or direct spot.

This phenomena depends from proportions ideal diamond( some ideal diamond go to dark, some ideal diamond do not go to dark. It is main problem DD), position diamond and viewer and position additional light. It definitely could be in DD daylight. I did not study DD direct spot light, but sure what this phenomena is possible for DD direct spot light too.

You say in your comment above that "some ideal diamond go to dark, some ideal diamond do not go to dark. It is main problem DD". I''m going to assume you are talking about the diffuse daylight view under the DD. As one who has used and worked with this device now for the past 7-8 months on a daily basis, what is your basis for saying "it is main problem with DD"? I don''t see any problems with DiamondDock lighting whatsoever and have compared its views and have documeted these views both with photography and video. The same assessment that is drawn in DD diffuse daylight is identical to natural diffuse daylight which I graphically have shown in our video on that subject.

My question to you Sergey is ...

How many man-hours or days have you spent viewing diamonds under the DD, then comparing those same stones to natural daylight environments in order to arrive at your conclusion?

I ask this because if you are basing your conclusion on the lighting in that picture that was posted of those orange stones it is a gross and misleading representation of DD lighting which I know you would not intentionally do.

Regards,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/12/2006 4:48:43 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/12/2006 4:04:22 PM
Author: Rhino

1. In a nutshell, when i''m looking at diamonds at a dealers office (which honestly has been quite a long time since i do it here) I bring along a master stone of mine to compare it to and examine and compare it under their standard office lighting *away* from the strong fluoro desk lamp.

2. Regarding the example at the above link that angle combo looks to be perhaps the max angle combo allowed in their Ex scheme. I haven''t seen one yet so I will not comment favorably or unfavorably against something I have not seen nor am familiar with. I''ll tell ya I''m skeptical, but until its in my hands, only then would I make a judgement call. BTW on a personal level, I don''t purchase or approve all GIA Ex OR AGS Ideal''s. I have my own standards which I adhere to that happen to fall within the zenith of both labs top grades. If I ever deviate from that I''d have to do some very hard thinking because it has generally been a standard I have always maintained even before GIA and AGS came out with their new systems.

Hope that helps and clarifies.

1. thank you Rhino - that is what I have observed in almost all cases of watching other buyers - it is instinctive and not something people even know they are doing. The closeness of the light and the usually white back ground of stone pads makes the stones look dark. The light also comes from a narrow feild of view. You might find the next time you are there that some cuts of diamonds look better under the desk lamp than others. This is usually true of diamnds that would show more green in their ASET images.

I hear where you''re coming from Garry and I also think this is where we are bonking heads on this whole DD issue. I think you are perhaps perceiving the DD to mimic diamond dealer lighting. Am I right?

I totally understand what you''re saying how that stones that exhibit more green in the ASET *look better* under this dealer lighting. Garry ... if you recall I demonstrate this in my brightness video.

Based on what I''ve read from you and this graphic from Sergey it appears you are mistaking the DD lighting for what is commonly seen under dealer lighting. If this is the case, this is the reason we are not seeing eye to eye on this issue.

I have an interesting video to share you with which I''ll try to have after this weekend for ya.

2. in the ''light'' of our 1. discussion - can you see why GIA would give a diamond like the one in the link an excellent cut grade - it is almost 1/2 green under ASET- since it is very clear in the Foundation article that GIA Cut Study Team studied dealer environ''s and desgined a portable consistent dealer lighting environ.

I understand what you''re saying here Garry and I think I hit the nail on the head regarding where I think we''re bonking heads.

I have a theory (a more detailed one that extends beyond the observation testing), mate on why I believe *all* of these GIA Ex steep/deeps are getting the Ex grade, however it''s not because of the DD (although it can be observed under the DD). The DD is not the issue. It''s a basic understanding of the phenonema happening within the diamond amongst these particular GIA Ex''s and I am on the cusp of having the precise answer which I don''t mind sharing with you how I''ve arrived at the current conclusions I have drawn at this present time. I will have more definitive answers once I get my recuts which I''m having done to GIA EX steep/deeps.

But when you stand tall, and or use it with additional shop lighting - or in your office where I can see from your photo - you have a twin fluoro light coming over each of your two shoulders - can you understand that you are getting a different result - a better result - more likely to be a good result - thn the Survey team got when they made people sit down in an otherwise dimmed room.

Nope. The reason why I know this is because I have made my office pitch black with *only* the DD lighting. Would help if I did some photography/video with the office completely dark and just the DD lighting? If so, I am happy to oblige. The ambient office lighting and even the ambient lighting on my showroom floor don''t alter the views that dramatically.

I have a video file I took of your master comparison cz''s you used in your journal article that Wink sent that I''d like to share. Lord willing, I''ll have that ready over the weekend.

Regards,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

thanks for being more co-operative Rhino:

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Now let us consider your first statement:

Date: 8/12/2006 6:35:19 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/12/2006 4:48:43 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/12/2006 4:04:22 PM
Author: Rhino

1. In a nutshell, when i''m looking at diamonds at a dealers office (which honestly has been quite a long time since i do it here) I bring along a master stone of mine to compare it to and examine and compare it under their standard office lighting *away* from the strong fluoro desk lamp.

1. thank you Rhino - that is what I have observed in almost all cases of watching other buyers - it is instinctive and not something people even know they are doing. The closeness of the light and the usually white back ground of stone pads makes the stones look dark. The light also comes from a narrow feild of view. You might find the next time you are there that some cuts of diamonds look better under the desk lamp than others. This is usually true of diamnds that would show more green in their ASET images.

I hear where you''re coming from Garry and I also think this is where we are bonking heads on this whole DD issue. I think you are perhaps perceiving the DD to mimic diamond dealer lighting. Am I right?

I totally understand what you''re saying how that stones that exhibit more green in the ASET *look better* under this dealer lighting. Garry ... if you recall I demonstrate this in my brightness video.

Based on what I''ve read from you and this graphic from Sergey it appears you are mistaking the DD lighting for what is commonly seen under dealer lighting. If this is the case, this is the reason we are not seeing eye to eye on this issue.

I have an interesting video to share you with which I''ll try to have after this weekend for ya.

I guess we are bonking heads because gIA have made it abundantly clear (ie very clear) that that they did model dealer lighting. remeber most of the observations were conducted by dealers - there we less retailers and even fewer GIA secretaries (ie consumers) - this is what they say about it here Foundation G&G article :

Our observers examined diamonds in a number
of different environments, some variable and some
controlled, including:
• Their own offices and workplaces (using desktop
fluorescent lamps)
• A conference room at the GIA offices in New
York (using similar desk lamps and/or the viewing
boxes described below)
• Retail showrooms (usually consisting of a mix of
fluorescent and spot lighting)
• “Retail-equivalent” environments at GIA in
Carlsbad and New York, set up according to recommendations
by a halogen light-fixture manufacturer
(Solux)
• Standardized color-grading boxes, including two
commercially available boxes (the Graphic
Technology Inc. “Executive Show-Off” Model
PVS/M—the “GTI” environment—and the
Macbeth Judge II Viewing Booth, both with daylight-
equivalent D65 fluorescent lamps)
At least three versions of a standardized viewing
box of our own design (the common viewing
environment, or “CVE”)
• A variety of patterned hemisphere environments
(to imitate computer-modeled environments)

And they added this commentary:

with daylight-equivalent fluorescent bulbs; dealers
and brokers generally use similar desk lamps in
their offices (figure 4). However, this type of diffuse
lighting suppresses the appearance of fire (again, see
figure 3). On the other hand, retail environments
generally provide spot, or point source, lighting
(usually with some overall diffuse lighting as well),
which accentuates fire (figure 5).
Therefore, when we wanted solely to study the
effects of brightness, we used dealer-equivalent
lighting, which consisted of daylight-equivalent
fluorescent lights mounted in fairly deep, neutralgray
viewing boxes (e.g., the Macbeth Judge II, as is
used for color grading colored diamonds; see King
et al., 1994).

There is no vagueness about this Rhino - this is what they did, it is what they reported in a 27 page article - and Diamond Dock is what they did to make a repeatable lighting environment.

Can you or anyone else understand why I think your hide is thick? You have had nearly 2 years to read this!

You said: I think you are perhaps perceiving the DD to mimic diamond dealer lighting. Am I right?
Yes - I said that. about 10 times. Now can you believe that that is what GIA did and that is what DD does (to the best of GIA''s ability?)

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/12/2006 6:35:19 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 8/12/2006 4:48:43 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/12/2006 4:04:22 PM
Author: Rhino

2. Regarding the example at the above link that angle combo looks to be perhaps the max angle combo allowed in their Ex scheme. I haven''t seen one yet so I will not comment favorably or unfavorably against something I have not seen nor am familiar with. I''ll tell ya I''m skeptical, but until its in my hands, only then would I make a judgement call. BTW on a personal level, I don''t purchase or approve all GIA Ex OR AGS Ideal''s. I have my own standards which I adhere to that happen to fall within the zenith of both labs top grades. If I ever deviate from that I''d have to do some very hard thinking because it has generally been a standard I have always maintained even before GIA and AGS came out with their new systems.

Hope that helps and clarifies.

2. in the ''light'' of our 1. discussion - can you see why GIA would give a diamond like the one in the link an excellent cut grade - it is almost 1/2 green under ASET- since it is very clear in the Foundation article that GIA Cut Study Team studied dealer environ''s and desgined a portable consistent dealer lighting environ.

I understand what you''re saying here Garry and I think I hit the nail on the head regarding where I think we''re bonking heads.

I have a theory (a more detailed one that extends beyond the observation testing), mate on why I believe *all* of these GIA Ex steep/deeps are getting the Ex grade, however it''s not because of the DD (although it can be observed under the DD). The DD is not the issue. It''s a basic understanding of the phenonema happening within the diamond amongst these particular GIA Ex''s and I am on the cusp of having the precise answer which I don''t mind sharing with you how I''ve arrived at the current conclusions I have drawn at this present time. I will have more definitive answers once I get my recuts which I''m having done to GIA EX steep/deeps.

But when you stand tall, and or use it with additional shop lighting - or in your office where I can see from your photo - you have a twin fluoro light coming over each of your two shoulders - can you understand that you are getting a different result - a better result - more likely to be a good result - thn the Survey team got when they made people sit down in an otherwise dimmed room.

Nope. The reason why I know this is because I have made my office pitch black with *only* the DD lighting. Would help if I did some photography/video with the office completely dark and just the DD lighting? If so, I am happy to oblige. The ambient office lighting and even the ambient lighting on my showroom floor don''t alter the views that dramatically.

I have a video file I took of your master comparison cz''s you used in your journal article that Wink sent that I''d like to share. Lord willing, I''ll have that ready over the weekend.

Regards,

Rhino when you understand the issues to do with DD you could test it and then share your theories and video''s with us.

Sergey and I have gone out of our way to explain why GIA accept steep deep''s because of their observation stury (their earlier computer studies favoured shallower stones).

Perhaps then you will see that the reason they used domes with 46 degree obscuration to assess brightness!

When you model DD and 46 degree obscuration in DiamCalc the same stones score well. tolkowsky just scarpes in near the shallow end - which extends to C35 P41.6 steep deeps. How hard is it to understand? They made a bad job of it for the likes of us - a great job for cutters and yeilds.

 

[Serg]

re: "Your graphic was introduced to the conversation and no information has been shared regarding the diamonds being photographed, the temperature of or type of lighting etc. Hence my question"

Rhino,

Please read


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-lighting-can-influence-on-grade-appearance.38583/page-2

P: 1/16/2006 7:20:06 AM

and

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-diamond-cut-grading-problems-with-diamond-dock.41869/

3/15/2006 1:16:02 PM

re:"As one who has used and worked with this device now for the past 7-8 months on a daily basis, what is your basis for saying "it is main problem with DD"? I don't see any problems with DiamondDock lighting whatsoever and have compared its views and have documeted these views both with photography and video. The same assessment that is drawn in DD diffuse daylight is identical to natural diffuse daylight which I graphically have shown in our video on that subject.

My question to you Sergey is ...
How many man-hours or days have you spent viewing diamonds under the DD, then comparing those same stones to natural daylight environments in order to arrive at your conclusion?"


ZERO!

Firstly I received this my conclusion then check . It is better way for research than just do observation tests several months. Firstly you need build model, then predict new knowledge, then check it. It is real science way.
And I have not DD in Moscow and enough diamonds. Some ideas I can check only outside Russia( Usually in India).

And I am not GG, I have not peer review article and other signs for proof my authority (Like GIA).
Do you have other similar questions? My answers will Zero or No.
But
1)I received same questions when I was explaining main problems FS and BS. It is last question when opponent has not real arguments. My advice do not use it more. It is not helpful at all
2)You changed your mind about FS and BS and most probably you will change your mind about DD in next year.

Rhino,
My question is
How many months was you happy with:
1) FS?
2) BS?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

bump

 

[Serg]

I suggest stop discussion until Symposium due a lot of work for symposium( Posters, reports)

 

[Rhino]

Date: 8/13/2006 2:37:08 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
thanks for being more co-operative Rhino:

Ok ... made it back. Just had a little operation here and everything is a-ok again. Sorry for the delay.

No sweat man. You know I am very open about my work, studies, information and have never been stingy with the info. I hope you always see me as being cooperative. More below...

Peace,