rising gas prices

[Blue824]

Date: 8/17/2005 10:28:17 PM
Author: Matatora
This is just making me nuts. I drive a ton my four years ago I was paying 88 cents a gallon for premium gas. Now I am paying 2.38$ beh...
It will hit stores like Wal-Mart soon. Most of our good are delivers that way and trucking companies must be taking a hit everytime the number jumps.

$2.38 for premium? I''d be happy if I could get regular for $2.38 hehe. You''re in NJ though, right? NJ is supposed to have the cheapest gas in the country, I think I heard on the news. Which I could never understand since it is all full serve.

Today at work I was talking to a volunteer and he was telling me about certain things he remembered from his childhood. A lot of those "oh I remember when..." and so I told him how old I felt the first time I said "I remember when gas was 80 cents" hehe

 

[IrishEyes]

I have a ''99 honda civic. "normally" it should cost me about $18 or so to fill it up. I went to Sam''s club today to fill it up three-quarters as I already had a quarter of a tank full. Three quarters was $21!! The tank being almost empty is about $26 for me to fill it right now, with prices being $2.70/gallon right now. For crying out loud it''s a honda civic, I can''t believe I have to pay that much for my little car! I am SO GLAD I don''t have an SUV. Of course as everyone knows, the prices are still rising and rising. I''m going up to chicago tomorrow, preparing myself to see the big $3.00 mark on the signs for the first time in my life

Unreal............

 

[kenny]

ame wrote "Kenny there are waitlists of over 2 years for Hybrids. "

Not for the Honda Civic Hybrid.
I just called my dealer and they have them on the lot.

The Toyota Prius gets all the attention.
I test drove them both and preferred the Honda.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

If the gas prices go much higher, they''ll have to start giving cars away!!

 

[MissAva]

Date: 8/18/2005 7:38:41 AM
Author: kenny
ame wrote ''Kenny there are waitlists of over 2 years for Hybrids. ''

Not for the Honda Civic Hybrid.
I just called my dealer and they have them on the lot.

The Toyota Prius gets all the attention.
I test drove them both and preferred the Honda.

that also might have to do with where you live....

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 8/18/2005 7:38:41 AM
Author: kenny
ame wrote ''Kenny there are waitlists of over 2 years for Hybrids. ''

Not for the Honda Civic Hybrid.
I just called my dealer and they have them on the lot.

The Toyota Prius gets all the attention.
I test drove them both and preferred the Honda.

how much more for a hybrid? are they the same HP as gas? daughter got a 2001 Civic,i wish it had more HP.

 

[MissAva]

Well the HP varies from model to model. The thing is that any matience these cars need is more. THe parts are newer and they are still working out the kinks. So the cost to own per mile even with higher gas prices is still lower on traditonal cars. In a few years this may change but I think that hybrids wont catch on until they cost the same amount to own per mile. Hybrid is .39/mile the regualr is .36/mile. This doesnt sound major but over a few years it adds up into the thousands.
These facts were taken from Edmunds if you want to know about depreciation mateince cost and the like of these cars just click the true cost to own tab on the side bar. Though when thye do the quick compares they tend to chose more expensive cars just so ya know.

 

[kenny]

Hybrid does not mean underpowered.
THe Accord Hybrid has MORE HP than the regular Accord.

In the case of the Civic the HP is slightly less.
Plenty for me since I am going for MPG.
There is plenty of HP for me to accelerate onto the freeway and pass if needed.

BTW it is almost always smarter to slow down than speed up to change lanes.
But you didn''t ask for a lecture.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 8/18/2005 11:38:54 AM
Author: kenny
Hybrid does not mean underpowered.
THe Accord Hybrid has MORE HP than the regular Accord.

In the case of the Civic the HP is slightly less.
Plenty for me since I am going for MPG.
There is plenty of HP for me to accelerate onto the freeway and pass if needed.

BTW it is almost always smarter to slow down than speed up to change lanes.
But you didn't ask for a lecture.

you better not do that where i live

or else you'll get rear ended

. how much more for a hybrid Civic vs gas?

 

[kenny]

About $1700
But you can''t quite compare.

The hybrid and the gas models don''t have the same features.

Also I got a $2000 Federal tax deduction for 2004.
Now you get a tax CREDIT of varying amounts.
You have to include this into the price.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/18/2005 11:00:24 AM
Author: Matatora
Well the HP varies from model to model. The thing is that any matience these cars need is more. THe parts are newer and they are still working out the kinks. So the cost to own per mile even with higher gas prices is still lower on traditonal cars. In a few years this may change but I think that hybrids wont catch on until they cost the same amount to own per mile. Hybrid is .39/mile the regualr is .36/mile. This doesnt sound major but over a few years it adds up into the thousands.
These facts were taken from Edmunds if you want to know about depreciation mateince cost and the like of these cars just click the true cost to own tab on the side bar. Though when thye do the quick compares they tend to chose more expensive cars just so ya know.

how high does gas have to go before the hybrid is more economical than the gas model? if gas gets to $4-5/gallon in the next year, will commuters be wishing they had bought the hybrid?

peace, movie zombie

 

[teebee]

Date: 8/18/2005 7:57:21 AM
Author: Madam Bijoux
If the gas prices go much higher, they''ll have to start giving cars away!!

Crazy thing is... I just got a letter in the mail today from the dealership where I purchased my SUV (which I have since traded in for a car) telling me that there is such a high demand for vehicles like this that they would buy it back (not just trade in, but an outright purchase) at a premium price... I guess paying $60 to fill up isn''t hurting some people like it did me if there is still such a demand in my area for gas guzzlers...

 

[perry]

Interesting that a discussion of the total cost of ownership per mile got started.

That is in the end what is the most imporatant feature if your goal is to maximize spendable income for other things.

However, might I point out that the actual price of gas becomes rather moot if you adopt that model.

Let me give you the examples of my primary vehicle.

1995 Ford Aspire (subcompact). I purchased it used in 1995 with about 4000 miles on it (at 2/3 the cost of a new one). Car was paid off by 2000.

In fall of 2001 a deer got me, and the insurance co paid me about $2000 because it was "totaled."

There was no structural or major component damage. I bought it back for $200. purchased used corner light and headlight, had shop install them and pound out sheet metal. Purchased somewhat mismatched can of "touch up" paint.

Almost 4 years later, and a few thousand in various repairs and new tires, with an estimated 60,000 miles + it runs like a champ.

It gets 30 - 40 MPG depending on driving conditions (running arround town / highway), and weather (winter - summer).

Cost per mile (purchase, repairs, insurance, etc) probably about 7 cents per mile.
Cost per mile (30 MPG @ 3.00/gal) = 10 cents per mile.
Total = 17 cents per mile

Money left to spend on other things... Lots, Lots, and Lots.

Who cares what the gas price is when your vehicle cost is low if your goal is to maximize spendable dollars for the life of the vehicle.

My other vehicle: A used full size van: Body and interior in really great shape. $2,500.

$10,000 for a new engine, rebuilt transmission, suspension work, tires, AC work, breaks, etc, ect, ect.

I have essentially from a mechanical standpoint a new full size conversion van for $12,500 (paid cash for all of this). Comparable new ones are about $45,000. Anyone have a use for $32,500 + interest if you finance it.

I will admit that I kept my eye open for over a year before I found this one, and I have had a dozen people - including my main repair shop owner - tell me that perhaps they should let me shop for their next vehicle (there were lots out there in worse body and interior shape for 3 to 4 times the money, and they probably would have needed most of the same engine, transmission, and other work if you truely wanted a reliable vehicle you could drive out west over the mountains like I did with my "new" used van.

Who cares that I spend an extra $1000 per year on gas for it, when I saved a solid 5 figures up front on the purchase.

Perry

ps: One reason to own an idealscope is to scout "used diamonds." Someday I am convinced that I will find a real deal on a real sparkly. Usefull for all kinds of things.

 

[movie zombie]

perry, i totally agree with you....and i totally don''t.

my practical side says you''re right but my mind says that it still matters ''cause gas just isn''t going to be available...not in our life time maybe but eventually. and while i know you''re very upbeat about research and new developments for energy, i wonder if we would all be better off just consuming less of the stuff.

peace, movie zombie

 

[perry]

Movie Zombie:

Keep in mind that the van is not used that much - but where it is used the little car will not work I cannot transport a set-up for an event in my car, nor transport many people in any form of comfort - both things that I need to do at times.

There is a time and place for different vehicles. Most often I drive the car and get the great gas mileage. The difference between 40 and 45 MPG over 10,000 miles is only about 28 galons of gas.

My key point relates to the concept that you are somehow saving money buy buying new vehicles - with "better" gas milage. A new van would not get that much better gas milage, a new compact car would not get that much better gas milage.

Take my 1995 compact car: The difference between 40 and 45 MPG over 10,000 miles is only about 28 galons of gas. At $3.00 per gallon that''s $84 for 10,000 miles in driving. For that I should spend thousands extra?

People are dropping 5 - 10 - 15 thousand extra dollars to get the latest new car, that might get a little better gas milage. You can find pleanty of 1 year old used cars for substaintially less than new if you feel you must have a late model car.

You would be far better off taking those thousands of dollars and investing them in home energy improvments (I have figured that by investing an additional $3000 in a new heating system, I could save $1200 per year in heating cost by changing technology from gas fired boiler to ground based heat pump: new boiler about $3000, Ground based heat pump about $6000 - I have to drill a series of wells as I live in town and don''t have a large area to layout a conventional ground loop system). That''s and energy savings that will make a big difference. Most homes in the US could do similar things - which saves fossil fuels). So that''s a project on my list if I stay here (after the windows).

I do admit my 2 vehicles represent the extreem on what can be done for overall cost savings; and it takes someone who understands what can be wrong and what the cost are to fix, and who is patient to find that "special" deal.

Perry

 

[kenny]

For me my hybrid is not about money.
Frankly, like most hybrid buyers, I could afford just about any car I wanted.

It is about supporting a new way of thinking and living.

 

[movie zombie]

perry, we''ve discussed for several years whether or not to get a hybrid....and we keep coming back to the fact that for that kind of $$$ we could buy several used cars over the course of time and still be ahead cost wise. however, my husband is a geek and loves all things geek so the lure of buying a hybrid and supporting alternative thinking as kenny mentioned may win out over dollars and sense [not a typo!].

the people buy hybrids, the more alternative energy autos will be developed...or so one can hope.

peace, movie zombie

 

[Blue824]

Date: 8/19/2005 12:03:57 AM
Author: kenny
My hybrid is not about money.
Frankly, like most hybrid buyers, I could afford just about any car I wanted.

It is about supporting a new way of thinking and living.

Yep, most people I know that have hybrids didn''t do it to save money, although that is a perk right now. They''ve done it to support a better lifestyle. And, actually, when you factor in the true costs with the factors of pollution and clean up, everything that is "saved" with a regular car is more than spent on clean up and depletion of resources. What my friend spent on his prius was only $2k more than I spent on my current car new, minimal difference for better technology.

Anyway, hopefully this spike in gas prices will push more companies to devote their energy to developing better technology. In an environmental science class a few years ago, I remember watching a film on this woman who drove a car powered by vegitable oil. Like, she could run into a grocery store and grab a bottle of oil and just pour it in her car. I thought that was cool. I know one year the city of Chicago experimented with some hydrogen busses that released water instead of as much pollution. I wonder what ever happend with that. It can be more expensive at first, and lots of people think short term, in the long term the investment pays off.

Teebee -- I was pretty shocked to read in the paper that the gas prices haven''t really had any effect on SUV sales, I guess your dealership is in the same position and not taking a hit yet! Odd huh?

 

[perry]

Movie Zombie:

"however, my husband is a geek and loves all things geek so the lure of buying a hybrid and supporting alternative thinking as kenny mentioned may win out over dollars and sense [not a typo!].

the people buy hybrids, the more alternative energy autos will be developed...or so one can hope"


Blue824:

Yep, most people I know that have hybrids didn't do it to save money, although that is a perk right now. They've done it to support a better lifestyle. And, actually, when you factor in the true costs with the factors of pollution and clean up, everything that is "saved" with a regular car is more than spent on clean up and depletion of resources. What my friend spent on his prius was only $2k more than I spent on my current car new, minimal difference for better technology.


Depends what you think "Alternate" thinking is, and what a better lifestyle is

Take my example above. By investing in a better home heating technology I can get over a thousand dollars a year in energy savings. How much does that reduce the "true cost" of energy and help depletion.

The basic fact is that the cost and environemental effects from the use of fossil fuels is all about the same when you factor in everything. Yes, natural gas is a bit cleaner than coal; but from an absolute scale considering all the factors in their mining through use - neither of them are that environmentally freindly.

The other fact is that the average american uses 2 to 3 times the electicity of 30 years ago (including all kinds of people who claim to be supporting alternate thinking). On average the production of electricity is one of the most inefficient use of fuels we have. During the same time manufacturing has almost cut in half the amount of electricity it uses on a per item basis (because energy efficiency is really good business practice and saves money).

So if you wish to claim that you are achieveing large energy savings, and a better lifestyle by spending thousands extra to save a hundred or so dollars a year. The average american household could spend the same kind of money and make intelegent of choices in their home and save closer to thousands a year. Who hear is practicing "Alternate" thinking, and pursueing a better lifestyle? Of course, one problem is that because most americans are not really interested in energy efficient homes and appliances, they are very hard to find because none of the main manufacturers make them (there is no market).

Besides: new cars are "sexy" and something you can easily show off. Few are impressed if you tell people that you have a great new home heating and air conditioning system, even if you tell them you are saving $100 per month on your energy bills...

Perry

 

[MissAva]

The car industry knows and has known for at least ten years how to makes cars run without gas. A university in CA figured out how to make cars run on methane gas from corn, which we have a ton of and wont be running out of any time soon, with the only by product being water. How to do it is not the issue. It is how to make it economically feasible.I believe some of the public transportation (buses) in California are already run this way but I cannot remember since I read the article so long ago.
The amount of money required to redo every gas station in the country is astronomical. It would also require us changing over every car manufacturing plant. Additionally there is the issue that the United States provides grains to a number of places outside of the US. How would we be able to keep up our grain reserves, feed the country and sell to other countries when at the same time the demand would grow.
Personally I am not a fan of hybrid cars. I know three people who own one and the actual cost s to get things repaired is about 3x as much as a traditional car. At the moment I am not willing to spend that kind of money, the purchase price is also too high for what you are getting. Maybe in another 5-10 years but for now they just are not worth it. IMO not trying dissuade anyone from getting whatever car they feel best suits their needs.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/19/2005 8:32:14 AM
Author: Matatora
The car industry knows and has known for at least ten years how to makes cars run without gas. A university in CA figured out how to make cars run on methane gas from corn, which we have a ton of and wont be running out of any time soon, with the only by product being water. How to do it is not the issue. It is how to make it economically feasible.I believe some of the public transportation (buses) in California are already run this way but I cannot remember since I read the article so long ago.
The amount of money required to redo every gas station in the country is astronomical. It would also require us changing over every car manufacturing plant. Additionally there is the issue that the United States provides grains to a number of places outside of the US. How would we be able to keep up our grain reserves, feed the country and sell to other countries when at the same time the demand would grow.
Personally I am not a fan of hybrid cars. I know three people who own one and the actual cost s to get things repaired is about 3x as much as a traditional car. At the moment I am not willing to spend that kind of money, the purchase price is also too high for what you are getting. Maybe in another 5-10 years but for now they just are not worth it. IMO not trying dissuade anyone from getting whatever car they feel best suits their needs.

in the past, the auto industry has bought up patents for more efficient and alternative types of fueling transport only to shelve them because the industry didn''t want the new ways on the market.

another alternative for fuel is hemp which is not useful to use as a ''drug'' but certainly was a threat to the nylon industry....ropes used to be made of hemp. it is also useful for fuel which can be used to power autos.

perry, i hear you and thus far reason reigns in this household. also, anyone remember when cars didn''t have air conditioning and neither did houses?! people actually lived and survived without many of the appliances/gadgets we take for granted now: applicances/gadgets made of plastic and powered by electricity.

peace, movie zombie

 

[perry]

Yes it is true, the auto industry has known for decades how to run cars on things other than gasoline or diesel fuel (and some propane). Methane, vegitable oil, and other thing exist and there are a few vehicles arround with those fuels by people who really want to show what can be done.

However, none of the other fuels are really practical for a variety of reasons; and the supply of those fuels will never be enough to satisfy more than a very small fraction of vehicles.

Hemp rope is still availble, but not used much because the other rope typically works better and is more cost effective. Growing hemp in the US for use as a material or for biodegestion will never be cost effective as their are other plants that are more cost effective and work better - or the land and labor cost in the US is too great to ever compete with the third world (hemp rope, cloth, and other items are redily and economically available from third world countries where people tend to make less than $1.00 a day).

The most effective use of biodegradable waste will probably be with farmers. They can feed their waste into digesters and produce some of the gas and electricity that they need to run their farm. This limits the transportation and storag cost; and their are farmers who already do this (and it is growing).

I am aware of one recent major utility study to build a several hunders MW power plant powered by trees, and have thousands of tree farms surrounding the plant to supply the trees. Tree farming would have to start 20 years prior to construction of the power plant so that there would be sufficient trees to power the plant. I believe that this is still under consideration, but the biggest holdup is getting people to plant trees for 20 years before they would be paid for them. Last I heard there were discussion with the Public Utility Commission on what would be needed to set it up.

As far as the patents that the Auto Industry has purchased. This is more of a myth than anything. Those patents are public record and expire typically after 17 years. Anyone is free to build their own device for personal use from those patents (you just can''t sell things based on them). Once they expire anyone can build and sell them. Most of those patents do not actually produce much gain, or have expired and have been adopted by the industry, or others have come up with alternate methods to achive the same results (where do you think many of the improvements in fuel economy per HP has come from).

The energy distribution system in the world is based principally on liquid products (pipelines) or electricity (wires). The trucks you see delivering fuel to the gas station are typically getting it from a pipeline which is used to fill tanks with different products (a tankfarm).

Whatever future fuel replaces gasoline, will almost certainly be in some form of liquid. Even hydrogen can be liquified and pumped and stored in tanks. It would also be easy to modify the hydrogen with something else that easily liquidfies and combusts (methane is 4 hydrogen atoms tied to 1 carbon atom: CH4).

I personally think that the US will end up with a huge nuclear industry and a substaintial hydrogen energy transprotation system will develop (with nuclear powered hydrogen production from water). I suspect that the hydrogen will be modified to some form of room temperature liquid product that would be compatable with our typical gas station.

Alternately, some new form of small power generation units will be developed based on sub-atomic or other exotic phenomina that no one really knows about yet (yes, I believe that such things will someday be developed: Dilithiem crystals anyone?): and eveyone will have their own mini power plant in their house and car.

Perry

 

[tanuki]

We can''t say we haven''t been warned about this for years.

I, too believe it is simple supply and demand catching up with us.

By 2050 or so China will have an economy the size of the USA and I don''t know when they expect India to have as many cars per person as we do but whatever increase they have means we have to bid on the open market against them too.

Sadly, we haven''t invested in the infrastructure to be prepared for this.

As bad as it may be in Europe, the situation here will be significantly worse