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Roots of Religious Intolerance in the Middle East
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The Ottoman Empire, which included modern Turkey and also much of the Middle East and North Africa was very tolerant of Christians and Jews. It was a caliphate, the ruler being the Muslim Defender of the Faith. One reason, historians have speculated, that the Ottoman Empire was so tolerant was that it heavily taxed both Christians and Jews. Nonetheless, it was extremely tolerant.
In 1492, when Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jews from Spain, they found safety in the Ottoman Empire. Many Spanish Jews settled in what is now Turkey, living together and continuing to speak their language: Spanish. Since a language which exists in a vacuum changes less than one which is affected by the outside world, the Spanish spoken by these Jews changed very little. It still exists; it is called "Ladino" and is an ancient Spanish.
These Turkish Jews found life less hospitable after World War I when the rise of nationalism worldwide affected Turkey. Kemal Ataturk, who took power, was a Turkish nationalist who wanted Turkey for the Turks. Many Jews were pressured to leave Turkey after centuries of living there in harmony with Muslims and Christians.
During the post-war Mandate Period in the Middle East, both Arab and Jewish nationalism rose. Jews were promised a homeland. Arabs were also promised autonomy. Great Britain and France, who ruled the areas under Mandate, granted neither what they had been promised.
There is, of course, more. I just thought I would get the ball rolling. I have been writing off the cuff, so if there are historical errors in what I wrote, please point them out!
Deborah
In 1492, when Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jews from Spain, they found safety in the Ottoman Empire. Many Spanish Jews settled in what is now Turkey, living together and continuing to speak their language: Spanish. Since a language which exists in a vacuum changes less than one which is affected by the outside world, the Spanish spoken by these Jews changed very little. It still exists; it is called "Ladino" and is an ancient Spanish.
These Turkish Jews found life less hospitable after World War I when the rise of nationalism worldwide affected Turkey. Kemal Ataturk, who took power, was a Turkish nationalist who wanted Turkey for the Turks. Many Jews were pressured to leave Turkey after centuries of living there in harmony with Muslims and Christians.
During the post-war Mandate Period in the Middle East, both Arab and Jewish nationalism rose. Jews were promised a homeland. Arabs were also promised autonomy. Great Britain and France, who ruled the areas under Mandate, granted neither what they had been promised.
There is, of course, more. I just thought I would get the ball rolling. I have been writing off the cuff, so if there are historical errors in what I wrote, please point them out!
Deborah
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The answer to why a "religious group" deserves a homeland lies in Jews not being a "religious group". Jews are an ethnic group. They were identified as an ethnic group throughout history, but most notably by the Nazis during World War II. They identify themselves as an ethnic group. Not all people who identify themselves as Jews practice the religion of Judaism.
Why Israel? Because many Jews had always lived there, no matter what it was called. The problem was that Arabs had lived there, too, and also wanted independence from the British. That caused a conflict between the Arabs and the Jews.
Deborah
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I am going to get myself in trouble here if I start giving you all the "facts" because I no longer remember all the fine points of the Balfour Declaration and the McMahon-Hussein Agreement, etcetera. To keep myself out of trouble let me put it simply.
Israel was not *given* to anyone. In the 1940s the Jews in "Palestine", many of whom had lived in the area that was called "the Palestine Mandate" for centuries, rebelled against the British who had ruled there since the end of World War I. The British hanged rebellious Jews; the Jews engaged in terrorist campaigns to win freedom. (See "The Stern Gang" and "the Hagganah".) In May of 1948 the Jews declared the creation of the State of Israel.
The problem-as I have said before-is that after World War I, when all people were supposed to have the right to self-determination, both the Jews *and* the Arabs who lived in the area of the British Mandate wanted their own states.
As for, "Why not a state in Europe?" My sister-in-law (who is 16 years older than my husband and lived out World War II in Nazi-occupied northern france) went to Israel to "build a new world" at 17. She had the same question you did. She has always said, "Why couldn't it have been in Switzerland?"
Deborah
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Surely religion had something to do with the decision of where to establish a Jewish state..
Weren't other places considered but always rejected because of the desire/need to be near all the holy places?
Steve's suggestion of lopping off a chunk of Germany or Italy is brilliant...but as has been said elsewhere.... water under the bridge.
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PS: Why is my prose purple?
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I tried to put the "Why not in Germany?" question in some historical context by describing the tension between the British rulers and the Jewish subjects who revolted; used terrorism; and were subject to hanging. Despite all the rhetoric about how Jews would be given a homeland and Arabs granted the right to self-determination, Great Britain gave freedom to no one. It was taken. Europe would never have given the Jews anything!
As to the correlation between where Israel was located and the religious significance of that area: you are right that the land in the Palestine Mandate was holy to Jews (and to Christians and Muslims). But also: the Jews were THERE.
Deborah
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The fighting goes back thousands of years.
To really understand the middle east you have to look at the land.
It is a large area but very few areas have enough water to support humans.
If you look at it in the context of fights over water I think you get to the root of it.
As far as the location it now stands at if you go by who "owned" it at one time or another then all the groups can claim it.
It has changed hands thousands of times as one group or another gained the power to control it then got thrown off.
To really understand the middle east you have to look at the land.
It is a large area but very few areas have enough water to support humans.
If you look at it in the context of fights over water I think you get to the root of it.
As far as the location it now stands at if you go by who "owned" it at one time or another then all the groups can claim it.
It has changed hands thousands of times as one group or another gained the power to control it then got thrown off.
tanuki
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Water has always been an issue in that region - but going back - way back.
I think Deb is on the right track about the British. I think the creation of Israel was sort of a separate but jiving thing going on at the time of WWII. In other words - it wasn''t born out of reparations - there was a whole Zioninst movement going on in that location w/ Jews moving there. And eventually kicked the Brits out which seemed to be the flavor of the day during that time.
This is off the top of my head & I welcome anyone to dispute it. So, I could be off base here.
I think Deb is on the right track about the British. I think the creation of Israel was sort of a separate but jiving thing going on at the time of WWII. In other words - it wasn''t born out of reparations - there was a whole Zioninst movement going on in that location w/ Jews moving there. And eventually kicked the Brits out which seemed to be the flavor of the day during that time.
This is off the top of my head & I welcome anyone to dispute it. So, I could be off base here.
MINE!!
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As for, ''Why not a state in Europe?'' My sister-in-law (who is 16 years older than my husband and lived out World War II in Nazi-occupied northern france) went to Israel to ''build a new world'' at 17. She had the same question you did. She has always said, ''Why couldn''t it have been in Switzerland?''
~My heart would tend to agree with your SIL... soo sad~
strmrdr
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strmrdr
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I took the thread off course by making it personal. Nonetheless, since I did, let me respond to this.
First, thank you for your generous heart, Mine. You have great generosity of spirit. It shows in everything you write, even when I disagree with it.
Second, on a *personal* note, my sister-in-law has had a very happy life. She was born in Genoa, Italy to parents who had come to Italy as teenagers from Turkey. Her family spoke Italian at home, but when her parents didn't want her to understand something, they spoke Ladino. They had a small clothing store and mingled with the working class Genoese, so they also spoke the (very, very strange) Genoese dialect still spoken by the workers.
My mother-in-law's parents and some of her siblings had emigrated to the United States, settling in California long before World War II. They actually settled in Cuba first. (Remember: Cuba was not Communist and Spanish-which was close to the ancient Spanish, Ladino, which the family spoke-was the language of Cuba).
In 1940 my mother-in-law and father-in-law tried to leave Europe for the United States where they now had family. They travelled to France from Italy, but missed the last boat out of Le Havre. The Germans had invaded France. It was 1940. My sister-in-law (who just turned 70) was 5 years old. They settled in a village in northern France and hoped they could survive. They spoke Italian, of course, and said that their passports had been burned in a fire. My sister-in-law started school in France. Two German soldiers, Nazi regalia pinned on, posed with her and a little French girl who was her friend. We have a picture of her in the arms of a beaming German soldier addorned with a swaztika.
My husband's family survived, although my father-in-law had to have surgery on his kidney, which meant that the doctor saw he was circumcized ( a sure sign that someone was a Jew). No one gave them away. My mother-in-law used to speak to my father (who was in France when it was liberated) of their joy as the American soldiers came through, giving out chocolate bars. (Never mind that she spoke no English and his French was so rusty that it creaked! I acted as interpreter!)
My husband's parents and sister returned to Genoa, Italy after the war. At age 16, my sister-in-law joined a kibbutz in Israel and went off to the Middle East by herself. If she was 16, it must have been 1951. She was married and had her first child by 17 or 18. That is why I have nieces and nephews in Israel who are almost as old as my husband and me. In fact, the children of my niece and nephew (five of them) are all older than our daughter!
When their son was around three my sister-in-law and her husband (Italian, from Venice) returned to Italy. There my niece was born. The children went to school there. But in 1967 war broke out in the Middle East and my sister-in-law and her husband could not stay away. They moved back to Israel and never left.
When I was first married, in 1977, I went to Israel for the first time. If I had not known better, I would have thought that Israelis all spoke Italian and ate pasta. They couldn't have been more Italian! My nephew, Uzi (which means "courage" in Hebrew), was then in the military.
My great-nephew, and two great-nieces have completed their military service and a third great-niece is doing her service now.
My sister-in-law, always a leftist, is one of those Israelis who do not want to oppress Arabs and who, despite wanting to be secure, always votes for the left-wing, pro-peace, labor party. She is just dear: sweet, nurturing, low-key, and kind. And she looks Italian. I remember thinking she couldn't be more Italian when I first met her and saw her fashionable sandals and painted toe-nails!
It is only coincidental that I studied a lot of history of the Middle East then married someone with family in Israel. My own political views on the Arab-Israeli conflict have not changed much since I was in college and had no connection there. I am very glad Israel exists. I do have many criticisms of its policies, however, as I do of US policies. (I am sure that surprises no one!) My sister-in-law and I usually agree on politics, too.
Deborah
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it was also my understanding that there was no western country willing to take in the numbers of jews wishing...legitimately, i might add...to immigrate elsewhere and start over. therefore the desire to create a country of their own in which they might never be expelled as had happened throughout history and/or exterminated as particularly demonstrated by germany coincided with limited immigration possibilities for a population of that number.
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This thread contains some pictures of my great-nephew two years ago when he had just finished his three years service in the IDF. Now two of my great-nieces have also finished their military service and a third great-niece has just started.
Thread From Two Years Ago
Nicrez
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AGBF, thanks for sharing your stories! I do have one questions...all this doesn''t explain to me why the borders are still being expanded.
So many of my Jewish friends say that being a Jew means you are JEWISH, and not Israeli. Being Israeli does not mean you are Jewish.
Therefore "Jew" to me is a term used for religious reasons and not ethnicity. Ethnicity would mean that anyone who is Jewish by religion, would have to be geneologically connected to their religious ancestors. Jews marrying only Jews, even if they are from Israel or Spain. That isn''t always the case, and many have converted to judaism, or many Jews have intermarried with non-jews, diluting the genes, so a child can be raised Baptist and be geneologically Jewish. Here''s the dictionary.com version of the word ethnic... doesn''t help me understand though:
Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.
Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group: ethnic restaurants; ethnic art.
Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen.
Why is it that people have to fight over their beliefs? How stupid.
Why is it you don''t see the French and Spanish fighting over who gets what side of the land marker...? What makes these stable countries now so stable, versus the countries that fight over borders?
So many of my Jewish friends say that being a Jew means you are JEWISH, and not Israeli. Being Israeli does not mean you are Jewish.
Therefore "Jew" to me is a term used for religious reasons and not ethnicity. Ethnicity would mean that anyone who is Jewish by religion, would have to be geneologically connected to their religious ancestors. Jews marrying only Jews, even if they are from Israel or Spain. That isn''t always the case, and many have converted to judaism, or many Jews have intermarried with non-jews, diluting the genes, so a child can be raised Baptist and be geneologically Jewish. Here''s the dictionary.com version of the word ethnic... doesn''t help me understand though:
Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.
Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group: ethnic restaurants; ethnic art.
Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen.
Why is it that people have to fight over their beliefs? How stupid.
Why is it you don''t see the French and Spanish fighting over who gets what side of the land marker...? What makes these stable countries now so stable, versus the countries that fight over borders?
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Nicrez,
You have said so much (and so much of interest to me) that I will not even try to answer all your points in one posting. Here I will try to address just the part of your posting I quoted above.
First, not all Jews and their supporters want to expand the Israeli borders farther than where they are now or even believe they should be where they now are (post 1967). That is a matter of much (hot) debate. I won't even go there in this thread. That could be a thread all by itself!
Being a Jew does not make one an Israeli. On the other hand, many people believe that all citizens of Israel are Jews. That means that Arabs who have lived in Israel for generations are not considered full citizens with equal rights.
"Who is a Jew?" has been debated for eons by Jews. Among Jews there is suspicion of converts. Some Jewish people (religious Jewish people) are forbidden to marry converts or the offspring of converts. That in itself, says that Jews do not believe that all who practice Judaism are Jews.
Compare this to the attitude of Christians. No one is born Christian! Christianity is conferred (in most denominations) through baptism. Christianity is a religion (or, actually, many religions), not an ethnic group. Jews are born Jews although one can also convert to Judaism.
Centuries ago the child of a Jewish man was considered a Jew. That changed (presumably because one could be sure who the mother was, but not who the father was). For centuries since then a Jew has been someone with a Jewish mother or someone who converts to Judaism.
The Law of Returns says that any Jew may go to Israel and become a citizen. Israel has had touble defining who is a Jew, however! They now allow into Israel (I think) anyone with a Jewish grandparent. Such a person (with one Jewish grandparent) is not a Jew according to Jewish law unless that one grandparent is the mother of said person's mother, because lineage is traced only through the matrilineal line.
To make matters more complicated, many religious Jews who live in Israel do not recognize it as Israel, because their Messiah has not come. They live there, but they do not recognize the State. Their children do no military service.
I won't even get into how others outside of Judaism have defined Jews! From Ferdinand and Isabella (who forced conversions of Jews and Moslems [Moors] to Catholicism) through Hitler, every anti-semite has had a different definition of who a Jew is. A Baptist will see a person baptized into the Baptist Church as a Baptist, regardless of whether the Jewish religion would say he is a Jew due to his birth. At least the Baptist Church creed would consider such a person a Baptist. Whether all the Baptists in the community would accept somone with two Jewish parents as a "real" baptist is another matter! And it goes on and on!
Calling Arabs who hate Jews anti-semitic, by the way, is a misnomer. Arabs, like Jews, are Semites.
I don't even know if I have covered everything you asked in the part of your posting I quoted above, Nicrez...and there is a lot more to answer beyond that!
Deborah
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The first question I cannot answer.
As to the second...it is interesting that you chose France and Spain because although they have no border dispute between them they both have problems with the Basque minority! Their border problems were never really with each other, however! Their problem was that if Louis XIV had ruled both France and Spain he would have overset the balance of power in the Europe of the time! The idea of a united France and Spain threatened England, Holland, and Austria which caused the war of the Spanish Succession!
What makes the western European borders stable? Time. Border disputes were resolved.
There were border disputes, however! The Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 finally consolidated the borders of France and Spain (following the War of the Spanish Succession). Without going into great detail, the Spanish Empire was taken apart and the ambitions of France thwarted. When the grandson of Louis XIV (of France) became Philip V of Spain it was with the understanding that no one would ever rule both Spain and France.
The Spanish Netherlands (Belgium) went to Austria. Other Spanish territories went to other allies of the British, Dutch, and Austrians who had fought with them.
Nicrez
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I asked my friend (a history and political science major back in college) the same question of why do some countries have no border disputes like others do. Her response to the Spain France thing was that they were a siliar group of people that had monarchy that interbred between eachother to combact exactly that. Border disputes. Monarchy from both countries married to unify, and after all, you can''t kill your own cousin...
i guess what the people in the Middle East need to do is start marrying people from the opposite side. That way their children will have no quarrels and everyone can basically abide by the "you can''t kill your cousin" theory... In my world, this works.
i guess what the people in the Middle East need to do is start marrying people from the opposite side. That way their children will have no quarrels and everyone can basically abide by the "you can''t kill your cousin" theory... In my world, this works.
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Your friend said, more simply, what I said above vis a vis the French and Spanish. As I said, it was their unity which caused war in the early 18th century. That''s the fly in the ointment with your theory. When some groups become cozy and friendly they often threaten others because they are so powerful as a coalition.
World War I started with the same problem. Serbia and Russia were close. Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire were close. When the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia came to blows, each country dragged in its friends...and soon everyone was at war.
Deborah
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Date: 6/19/2005 6:01:54 PM
Author: fire&ice
But, not in the converted sense that she converted to Judism - just the opposite - she is a Jew - converted to Catholicism.Yet, I have been told by many that it is the position she was BORN into.
According to Jewish law you can claim to be a Jew by birth as can your mother. According to the Catholic Church she is Catholic if she was baptized and confimed in the Catholic Church (unless she gets excommunicated, of course.) Jewishness can be conferred by birth or conversion. Catholicism is through baptism.
One of my husband's cousins in Italy is half Jewish : an Italian Catholic father and a Jewish mother. He identifies far more with his mother's family and considers himself a Jew. He married a nice Italian, Catholic girl. It turned out she had one Jewish grandparent...but it was her mother's mother. She did not have to convert to Judaism. "All" she had to do (to please her husband) was to give up acting like a Catholic. For most Italians (since most do not go to church), the only sacrifice that entailed was giving up the holidays and allowing her children to be brought up as Jews. She did that for her husband. I feel it was a great sacrifice. Her sons both had bar mitzvahs and consider themselves Jews. In reality, they have far more Italian, Catholic heritage!!!
I do not believe in any religious laws, personally. I just try to understand them.
Deb
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