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round brilliant purchase - idealscope?

what do the H&A achieve?

I understand it is symmetry, but what does that bring and why should I pay a premium for it? If I can get a stone with limited leakage and good light performance, fire, scintillation, why pay for H&A?
 
gmanesq said:
what do the H&A achieve?

I understand it is symmetry, but what does that bring and why should I pay a premium for it? If I can get a stone with limited leakage and good light performance, fire, scintillation, why pay for H&A?
Click to expand...

Answered before.
Yssie said:
There are many threads arguing both sides.

For an RB my opinion is no.

The precision of cutting that creates perfectly symmetric hearts (and I'm including modified hearts in this statement) requires much more time and effort than just getting the proportions "right" on target.

The high optical symmetry results in larger avg virtual facet size, and the larger the virtual facet the greater the capability for pronounced and uninterfered-with light refractions & dispersions - this is part of why princesses and rounds of the same face-up area have very different "types" of performance. If you're looking for big, bold flashes and blocks of colour, having larger virtual facets will enable this type of light return.

However, in the real world, the difference between a round with perfect optical symmetry and a round of similar proportions without is going to be far less than the difference two rounds with different lower half lengths, different crown/pavilion combos.. The price difference between a well-proportioned "near H&A" and a "true H&A" is significant, the appearance and performance will be IMO 99.9% indistinguishable.

So.. is it important? Lots of people think so, and are willing to pay the premium for it. Lots of people don't.
Click to expand...
 
I understand. basically, i will need to see everything with my own eyes and determine if having the H&A are worth the premium, if any.

Thanks for the help. Is there any other advice or just find what is aesthetically pleasing?
 
I think the majority of my confusion has come from the one jeweler that keeps pushing symmetry of H&A and "bling". He put such an emphasis on this that it scared me away from anything but the H&A.

Any suggestions or buying advice if greatly appreciated.
 
Is all his stocks H&A? Compare his none H&A stones, that scores well on the HCA with similar proportions as his H&A, with his H&A side by side in different lighting conditions and see which ones you prefer.
 
all of his are H&A basically. I am going to another jeweler that is getting me some diamonds and I am pretty certain that they will not have H&A.

I will try to see which gives a better reaction when viewing under different light conditions. It is difficult because I can't view them simultaneously.

How did everyone on this site become so knowledgeable on the subject matter? It is amazing at the knowledge and information available.
 
gmanesq said:
I think the majority of my confusion has come from the one jeweler that keeps pushing symmetry of H&A and "bling". He put such an emphasis on this that it scared me away from anything but the H&A.

Any suggestions or buying advice if greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
Hi again gmanesq.

Pardon me for saying this, but you sound really stressed out about all of this. I have a feeling it's because of this jeweler pushing H&A's.

Did he show you the stones face-up and pavilion-up through a Heart-and-Arrows viewer? If so, is he charging some wild premium? If he didn't get out an H&A viewer, I'd be suspicious of his claim.

Here is a 2.024 ct G SI-1 ACA from WF for you to compare: (I'm a happy customer and have no business affiliation with WF. I recently bought a 2.008 G VS2 ACA.)

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2275579.htm

The "hearts" image is on the right. There is a slight premium for an ACA from WF, but their ACA's and ES's can be traded in at any time, which to me is worth it. Are your H&A's jeweler's prices similar to this from WF?

Hope this helps. And RELAX - you will find a great diamond! ;))
 
Let me try and summarize what I said earlier.


IF you didn't want to do any research on diamonds, H&A is a good idea because it's a quick and easy way to guarantee a pretty stone that outperforms the masses, and so the premium is worth it. H&A branded stones are usually two things, depending on brand consistency: perfectly optically symmetric AND cut specifically to a generally crowd-pleasing set of proportions - it is this second that makes it a very good idea, because it is easy to search through a listing of thirty H&A diamonds and find one in the colour/clarity/price you're looking for without doing any more research into it, and you're guaranteed to get a nice stone.


IF you're the type who is willing to and has time to do some research (as you clearly are, or you wouldn't be on PS) though, and you're willing to hunt for a well-proportioned stone, the visible benefits of H&A (well-proportioned for excellent performance) are eliminated, so the only reason to get a H&A is if you like the mind-clean aspect of knowing you have a stone with perfectly formed hearts and you don't mind paying extra for it.

IF you're the type who prefers a different set of proportions from the general crowd-pleasing set that most H&A branded stones are cut to, such as a higher crown or larger table, you likely don't have a choice about H&A - you must put in the work to find your own stone, as these sorts of proportion combinations fall outside most H&A brand specifications..
 
Thanks for all the advice and tips. I will do my research and determine if the H&A diamonds are much more and try to determine if the cost is worth it. Basically I just want a beautiful diamond and not feel like I am overpaying. I am willing to pay extra for the H&A if I see a different in the aesthetics of the diamond.

I think I am on the right track now.

Thanks everyone!
 
The problem is being able to educate your eyes gmanesq.
This must be done away from the strong jewelry store lights.

If one shows you a well proportioned stone that happens to be HA versus a poorly proportioned stone you will likely notice the difference.

At the very least compare a GIA EX/EX/EX to the H&A stone under a table.
Even better a non branded AGS 0 to an H&A branded stone.

Don't beleive optical symmetry unless shown the hearts and arrows.
Don't beleive good proportions unless shown the Idealscope and/or ASET.

Trust your eyes once you have educated them in many different lighting environments, outside, under a table, away from the spot light etc.
 
I've been shown the H&A's and was shown the diamonds through a light path scope to show light leakage. I have noticed that his show room is extremely bright. I asked to go to the back office which had much less light.

I also try to shadow the diamond under the table, etc. The rings were stunning in all lights. I am waiting to see some new diamonds from another jeweler that did not push the H&A issue. He is much more about seeing the diamond and liking its beauty.

Hopefully I can find something from one of these two. I was just called that one of the jewelers is getting a 2.14 ct., GIA triple Ex, H, SI1 for me to see.

Once I get a chance to see all of the diamonds, I will make a decision based upon beauty, price, etc.

I think progress has been made over the last few weeks.
 
Stone-cold11 said:
Ditto.
Yssie said:
gmanesq said:
people refer to "perfect hearts & arrows", but what if there are no hearts and arrows at all?
I specified "near H&A" for exactly this reason - some people do not like the 'organized' look of arrows, and prefer a completely random pattern. GIA does not consider hearts when grading, but to get a very random pattern the physical (facet meet-point) symmetry must also be non-perfect, which will lower the symmetry grade given - which is fine, if that's the look you like!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Just wanted to add that to get no pattern, the symm grade would need to drop, probably to a G, and then GIA will down grade the cut grade to a grade above the symm grade.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what this assessment is based upon, and strongly disagree. I see no necessary connection between the lab-graded symmetry-grade (physical symmetry) and the absence of pattern. Yssie and SC, I think that you are both off.

Live long,
 
Paul-Antwerp said:
Stone-cold11 said:
Ditto.
Yssie said:
gmanesq said:
people refer to "perfect hearts & arrows", but what if there are no hearts and arrows at all?
I specified "near H&A" for exactly this reason - some people do not like the 'organized' look of arrows, and prefer a completely random pattern. GIA does not consider hearts when grading, but to get a very random pattern the physical (facet meet-point) symmetry must also be non-perfect, which will lower the symmetry grade given - which is fine, if that's the look you like!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Just wanted to add that to get no pattern, the symm grade would need to drop, probably to a G, and then GIA will down grade the cut grade to a grade above the symm grade.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what this assessment is based upon, and strongly disagree. I see no necessary connection between the lab-graded symmetry-grade (physical symmetry) and the absence of pattern. Yssie and SC, I think that you are both off.

Live long,
Click to expand...

Either its miscommunication or misconception, but Paul is right, you can have Excellent meet point and "external" symmetry, which is what GIA grades on their report and still not come close to hearts and arrows optical symmetry. (very common)

You can also have hearts and arrows optical symmetry and still get meet point symmetry of very good (much much less common).
 
Hi Paul-Antwerp -

So a triple EX cut GIA will have nice symmetry and should be a nice stone, correct?
 
gmanesq said:
Hi Paul-Antwerp -

So a triple EX cut GIA will have nice symmetry and should be a nice stone, correct?
Click to expand...
Pardon me for replying before Paul, but have you used the Holloway Cut Advisor? It can be found here:
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
You may want to check a GIA triple X using this tool. It is not a selection tool, but you will notice that some GIA triple X stones fall in a poor range for light performance.
 
I have used the HCA on the diamonds now.

I am awaiting the next few to see and I will use the HCA on them as well.

Thanks!
 
Yssie said:
gmanesq said:
My question remains, do you have to have hearts and arrows to have a beautiful diamond?
Click to expand...


There are many threads arguing both sides.

For an RB my opinion is no.


The precision of cutting that creates perfectly symmetric hearts (and I'm including modified hearts in this statement) requires much more time and effort than just getting the proportions "right" on target.

The high optical symmetry results in larger avg virtual facet size, and the larger the virtual facet the greater the capability for pronounced and uninterfered-with light refractions & dispersions - this is part of why princesses and rounds of the same face-up area have very different "types" of performance. If you're looking for big, bold flashes and blocks of colour, having larger virtual facets will enable this type of light return.

However, in the real world, the difference between a round with perfect optical symmetry and a round of similar proportions without is going to be far less than the difference two rounds with different lower half lengths, different crown/pavilion combos.. The price difference between a well-proportioned "near H&A" and a "true H&A" is significant, the appearance and performance will be IMO 99.9% indistinguishable.

So.. is it important? Lots of people think so, and are willing to pay the premium for it. Lots of people don't.
Click to expand...

Yssie,

You are mixing up two separate issues.

If we are talking about precision-cutting as to pattern and crispness of that pattern (I am not fond of the H&A-term myself), it is correct that a higher precision and optical symmetry generally leads to less and thus larger virtual facets. However, most important is the opposite: less precise and less optically symmetrical cutting leads to extra tiny virtual facets that take away from the potential crisp on/off-effect of scintillation.

This as such cannot be compared to the difference in number and size of virtual facets caused by changing lower half lengths.

Live long,
 
gmanesq said:
Hi Paul-Antwerp -

So a triple EX cut GIA will have nice symmetry and should be a nice stone, correct?
Click to expand...

To the contrary, the symmetry-grade of a lab is of almost no importance, when considering the light-performance-based 'niceness' of a diamond.

Live long,
 
Paul-Antwerp,

What do you recommend? Just looking at the diamond itself for its beauty and use the HCA to make certain the numbers are in the proper range?

Do I need to view under a light path scope to see potential leakage?
 
Paul, so you are saying to get a non-pattern round brilliant, it is possible to do so with a GIA Ex symm grade?
 
gmanesq said:
Paul-Antwerp,

What do you recommend? Just looking at the diamond itself for its beauty and use the HCA to make certain the numbers are in the proper range?

Do I need to view under a light path scope to see potential leakage?
Click to expand...
pardon me again for replying before Paul, but it sounds like you are on the right track.

Check the HCA, check the IS image, look at the diamond to see if you like it. Easy, right? ;))
 
Is the cut grade still important? Do I have to go EX or can I go VG? Or does it really depend on diamond to diamond with ratios, etc?

I am willing to go Triple Ex, i am just wondering if it is essential.
 
ChunkyCushionLover said:
The problem is being able to educate your eyes gmanesq.
This must be done away from the strong jewelry store lights.

If one shows you a well proportioned stone that happens to be HA versus a poorly proportioned stone you will likely notice the difference.

At the very least compare a GIA EX/EX/EX to the H&A stone under a table.
Even better a non branded AGS 0 to an H&A branded stone.

Don't beleive optical symmetry unless shown the hearts and arrows.
Don't beleive good proportions unless shown the Idealscope and/or ASET.

Trust your eyes once you have educated them in many different lighting environments, outside, under a table, away from the spot light etc.
Click to expand...

Relax gmanesq,

I fully agree with CCL's advice above.

The HCA is a starting-basis and a rejection-tool, not the final decision-maker.

Live long,
 
Stone-cold11 said:
Paul, so you are saying to get a non-pattern round brilliant, it is possible to do so with a GIA Ex symm grade?
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we take this into another thread, since our technical discussion might be confusing the OP? To answer your question, I do not see why not. If you want to pursue the discussion, possibly better in a separate thread?

Live long,
 
when choosing a diamond are you seeking a non-pattern? is the symmetry not good? why do you not prefer the H&A?

what are the key items to look for in a stone? Brightness, scintillation and fire? Under a scope to see light leakage, if any? and the ratios? any other issues to address?
 
To the contrary, gmanesq,

We produce precision-cut-diamonds with high optical symmetry, so I do like that.

I am not fond of the term 'H&A', because it has been used rather loosely, and its definition is not set in stone. With various definitions, various claims of H&A and various understandings about the visual benefits, it becomes very complicated to explain or defend the true benefit of precision-cutting. Generally, another person (even the best expert) has another experience-set based upon slightly different definitions, and it hinders the correct exchange of ideas. That is why I do not like the term.

Your particular case is interesting, but I do not want to confuse you. You should trust your eyes, following CCL's advice.

In your case, your retailer might be convinced that he is offering you H&A and that they are the best. However, he needs to show you this in a proper H&A-viewer, and not in an ideal-scope, light-path-scope or whatever. There, you need to be able to see the patterns immediately, and they should be symmetrical all over.

Most importantly, and very often neglected, you should check if the patterns are very crisp. To me, if not crisp, they may fit the definition of H&A for most people, but they are not a result of precision-cutting and I fear that the observable benefits could be minimal.

Live long,
 
gmanesq said:
Is the cut grade still important? Do I have to go EX or can I go VG? Or does it really depend on diamond to diamond with ratios, etc?

I am willing to go Triple Ex, i am just wondering if it is essential.
Click to expand...
Personally I don't think it's essential. I am not an expert gmanesq, but if you look at some of the HCA light performance plots, you can see the outline for GIA X cuts and the outline for AGS 0 cuts. Some of the GIA X field omits areas of the plot in the red/orange/yellow range. So you may find a GIA VG cut that scores well on HCA and that you like visually.

gmanesq, you have the benefit of seeing these diamonds in person - that's big. Do you want perfect symmetry in your diamond, or are you happy with an arrows pattern that may be slightly off? YOU have to know. Bring an IS and refer to the HCA to help you take the store lights out of the equation, but use your eyes.

If you want to further fine-tune the look of your diamond you can consider the following: Do you like a larger table, or a smaller table? Do you like LGF's around 75% or closer to 80%? Do you like the balance in a H&A stone or do you not really see a difference? This is going to take a LOT of educating.

Buying a branded H&A diamond, gives you the peace-of-mind that you are buying a beautiful stone, without having to spend all the time learning about CA, PA, LGF, VF, etc.
 
Paul-Antwerp said:
In your case, your retailer might be convinced that he is offering you H&A and that they are the best. However, he needs to show you this in a proper H&A-viewer, and not in an ideal-scope, light-path-scope or whatever. There, you need to be able to see the patterns immediately, and they should be symmetrical all over.

Most importantly, and very often neglected, you should check if the patterns are very crisp. To me, if not crisp, they may fit the definition of H&A for most people, but they are not a result of precision-cutting and I fear that the observable benefits could be minimal.

Live long,
Click to expand...
Maybe gmanesq could benefit from seeing a "bad" H&A image, one that isn't crisp or is deficient in some way? Would you have an example?
 
I am sorry, I only have pictures of our own production.

Furthermore, I am afraid that low-res-pics on a computer-screen do not really show the difference. It is obvious in-real-life in a H&A-viewer, just like HD on tv is.

Live long,
 
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