Round diamond engagement ring

[Jack123]

First time posting here..

I am looking to buy a round diamond platinum engagement ring. My budget is £3000-£3500 and I have done a fair amount of research into the various diamond classifications and I am aiming for a minimum VS2, G colour, triple ex, GIA certified diamond.

For background, it is being mounted on a 4 claw platinum diamond shoulder with a thin band and she is a size G 1/2. I’ve attached a photo of the setting I am looking to go with.

I have been offered 3 diamonds within my budget from a local jeweller and was wondering if someone could advise on the quality of what I am being offered please? Anything I need to be looking out for being a first time diamond purchaser.

Also if anyone is of a similar size and has a similar diamond I would love to see how they look.

Thanks in advance!

 

[lovedogs]

Is the local jeweler offering you both stone and setting for under 3500? Just trying to convert in my head to USD and understand pricing.

Unfortinately none of those diamonds are well cut. In general we recommend sticking w the following:

Table: 54-58
Depth: 60.5-62.4
Crown angle: 34-35 (can go up to 35.5 if pav is closer to 40.6)
Pav angle: 40.6-40.8 (can go up to 41 if crown is closer to 34).

These ranges are restrictive but will help weed out stones that arent great.

 

[gemmygemgem]

I'm new to this game myself, only just purchased my first stone recently. But looking at the 3, I'd immediately let go of the 2nd one for its poorer cut.

The first one, while nice to have D colour, I would let go because of the strong fluorescence. Also, viewing the 360, the inclusions are black, and seem too obvious. Inclusions in the 3rd one are easy to spot too, though what I saw were white.

I'm just a newbie here, so will let the pros here give their comments. Would be interested to read.

 

[sledge]

A few different thoughts. First, the setting looks nice and is a classic eloquent look. I prefer (and bought my wife) a 6 prong setting as it helps provide additional security to the stone and also keeps it looking round. Sometimes a 4 prong can make a round stone take on squarish appearance. Also I would explain to the jeweler you want the prongs very refined so they are functionally yet not overly bulky. I ended up using claw type prongs on my wife’s setting but that is a preference.

As far as cut goes, please understand the GIA excellent cut grade is very broad. There are some amazing stones in that classification and also some that aren’t so amazing. So you can’t reliably determine cut quality by that category alone. Also, you didn’t mention it but you will also want to make sure symmetry and polish are also excellent. We call this a 3X stone.

To help find the better cut stones we have to look at the proportions, pictures and videos assuming the latter two exist.

Since you are shopping locally, are all 3 stones located in-house? And what was your opinion of each?

Based on the reports alone, here are my thoughts:

Stone 1. Love the high color. A little concerned about the strong blue fluor. This can be an attribute or negative. You have to vet the stone to ensure it’s not milky or hazy looking in numerous lighting environments. Assuming it’s not then you need to consider it may emit a blueish hue when subjected to stronger amounts of UV light such as direct or indirect daylight. Some love this, others don’t. Sometimes high color stones like this with strong or very strong blue fluor is/was called “blue-whites”. Some people desire them if they don’t suffer from the potential negative effects. I might further add a good portion of stones don’t exhibit negative traits from fluor but (should) always trade for a discounted price. As fluor level increases along with certain inclusions, odds do rise a bit.

Aside from the fluor I am not thrilled with the cut. It’s similar to a 60/60 stone which means both the table and depth equal near 60%. It has a shallow crown and consequently shallow crown height. The stone will likely be very bright, but more dull & flat looking than a traditional Tolk style cut that will have more rainbow light return (fire) and overall better balanced between rainbow & white light return than a 60/60. The advantage a 60/60 stone has its very bright and because it’s shallow, it pushes the carat weight further out in the horizontal plane creating a larger spread for the dollar. So the stone will have a slightly nicer/bigger spread than a more ideal cut stone. Ultimately I would reject this stone for the cut.

To learn more about fluor:
https://www.pricescope.com/education/diamond-color/diamond-flourescence

Stone 2. My least favorite of the group with a pavilion >41. Things go wonky once a stone hits 41.2 or greater. This stone likely has translucent arrows and provides a lack of contrast. It tries to compensate with the shallow crown with an overly steep pavilion. Additionally as the 3rd (and least impactful) inclusion, it has a knot. The risk is likely very low but I personally do not prefer stones with knots. The knot is just icing on the cake. I’m rejecting this one for the cut.

To learn more about pavilions, etc:

Do the pavilion mains drive light return in the modern round brilliant?

Article by Karl K. On many websites you will see it said that the pavilion main facets drive light return. Top labs and many grading systems use the pavilion angle […]

www.pricescope.com

Stone 3. Unfortunately, I would also be rejecting this stone. The table size is good. But the steep 36.5 crown does not pair well with the somewhat steep 40.8 pavilion. While I like the 16% crown height it pushes your depth to 63% overall. So this stone is more of a steep-deep style and pushes more of the weight into the vertical plan; thereby, reducing the spread diameter and making it size smaller than average for it’s weight.

 

[sledge]

My other post was growing too long, and I came back to post some preferred proportions to help narrow the options but I see @lovedogs beat me to the punch.

Also I was going to share my wife’s stone since you asked for similar examples. The setting is very different but the size isn’t terribly far off at 0.867. The stone is from Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD) and is part of their Blue collection (stones w/ medium blue or above fluor). A vetted stone with all the positives of fluor and none of the negatives. Lastly, it is a H color, VS2 clarity.

 

[WDWDiamond]

I am still new as well so I will let the pros speak to the diamonds but I have basically that exact setting and diamond size you are looking for. I looked up a size G 1/2 in the US, which is a 3.5. I am a 6.75 US but hopefully this will still help.

.718 ACA I SI1 5.72x5.76x3.56 mm

 

[Jack123]

Is the local jeweler offering you both stone and setting for under 3500? Just trying to convert in my head to USD and understand pricing.

Unfortinately none of those diamonds are well cut. In general we recommend sticking w the following:

Table: 54-58
Depth: 60.5-62.4
Crown angle: 34-35 (can go up to 35.5 if pav is closer to 40.6)
Pav angle: 40.6-40.8 (can go up to 41 if crown is closer to 34).

These ranges are restrictive but will help weed out stones that arent great.

For clarity the price offered by the jeweller is all in, so all of the diamonds listed above in the setting described are under £3500.

Ah that is disappointing to hear, but also why I joined this forum! Thanks for the additional detail to work out the decent cuts. I was swaying towards stone 3 but now I’m thinking I should maybe go back and request that more are offered?

 

[Jack123]

A few different thoughts. First, the setting looks nice and is a classic eloquent look. I prefer (and bought my wife) a 6 prong setting as it helps provide additional security to the stone and also keeps it looking round. Sometimes a 4 prong can make a round stone take on squarish appearance. Also I would explain to the jeweler you want the prongs very refined so they are functionally yet not overly bulky. I ended up using claw type prongs on my wife’s setting but that is a preference.

As far as cut goes, please understand the GIA excellent cut grade is very broad. There are some amazing stones in that classification and also some that aren’t so amazing. So you can’t reliably determine cut quality by that category alone. Also, you didn’t mention it but you will also want to make sure symmetry and polish are also excellent. We call this a 3X stone.

To help find the better cut stones we have to look at the proportions, pictures and videos assuming the latter two exist.

Since you are shopping locally, are all 3 stones located in-house? And what was your opinion of each?

Based on the reports alone, here are my thoughts:

Stone 1. Love the high color. A little concerned about the strong blue fluor. This can be an attribute or negative. You have to vet the stone to ensure it’s not milky or hazy looking in numerous lighting environments. Assuming it’s not then you need to consider it may emit a blueish hue when subjected to stronger amounts of UV light such as direct or indirect daylight. Some love this, others don’t. Sometimes high color stones like this with strong or very strong blue fluor is/was called “blue-whites”. Some people desire them if they don’t suffer from the potential negative effects. I might further add a good portion of stones don’t exhibit negative traits from fluor but (should) always trade for a discounted price. As fluor level increases along with certain inclusions, odds do rise a bit.

Aside from the fluor I am not thrilled with the cut. It’s similar to a 60/60 stone which means both the table and depth equal near 60%. It has a shallow crown and consequently shallow crown height. The stone will likely be very bright, but more dull & flat looking than a traditional Tolk style cut that will have more rainbow light return (fire) and overall better balanced between rainbow & white light return than a 60/60. The advantage a 60/60 stone has its very bright and because it’s shallow, it pushes the carat weight further out in the horizontal plane creating a larger spread for the dollar. So the stone will have a slightly nicer/bigger spread than a more ideal cut stone. Ultimately I would reject this stone for the cut.

To learn more about fluor:
https://www.pricescope.com/education/diamond-color/diamond-flourescence

Stone 2. My least favorite of the group with a pavilion >41. Things go wonky once a stone hits 41.2 or greater. This stone likely has translucent arrows and provides a lack of contrast. It tries to compensate with the shallow crown with an overly steep pavilion. Additionally as the 3rd (and least impactful) inclusion, it has a knot. The risk is likely very low but I personally do not prefer stones with knots. The knot is just icing on the cake. I’m rejecting this one for the cut.

To learn more about pavilions, etc:

Do the pavilion mains drive light return in the modern round brilliant?

Article by Karl K. On many websites you will see it said that the pavilion main facets drive light return. Top labs and many grading systems use the pavilion angle […]

www.pricescope.com

Stone 3. Unfortunately, I would also be rejecting this stone. The table size is good. But the steep 36.5 crown does not pair well with the somewhat steep 40.8 pavilion. While I like the 16% crown height it pushes your depth to 63% overall. So this stone is more of a steep-deep style and pushes more of the weight into the vertical plan; thereby, reducing the spread diameter and making it size smaller than average for it’s weight.

Thanks for your detailed response!

With my limited experience, I was swaying towards stone 3, believing this was the best of the bunch.

This is definitely something I wanted to avoid, as I wanted to get bang for buck in terms of visual size/carat weight.

Doing my own research online and in a few jewellers, I didn’t believe I could achieve a 0.8 carat with the spec I listed within my £3500 budget. I am wondering if this is achievable because of the poor cut you described?

I was planing to view these diamonds in person Wednesday, as the jeweller had them shipped in. Any guidance you could give on actually viewing one in person please? I can imagine it’s very easy to get persuaded by a jeweller to push the sale so it would be good to sound/know what I’m talking about haha

 

[lovedogs]

For clarity the price offered by the jeweller is all in, so all of the diamonds listed above in the setting described are under £3500.

Ah that is disappointing to hear, but also why I joined this forum! Thanks for the additional detail to work out the decent cuts. I was swaying towards stone 3 but now I’m thinking I should maybe go back and request that more are offered?

Yeah, unfortunately none would be considered a truly excellent cut, so I would suggest going back and asking the jeweler to find you a stone within the ranges given above. I think most people would rather have a slightly smaller stone with a better cut, as cut = fire/brilliance vs a bigger stone with a poorer cut

 

[DejaWiz]

For clarity the price offered by the jeweller is all in, so all of the diamonds listed above in the setting described are under £3500.

Ah that is disappointing to hear, but also why I joined this forum! Thanks for the additional detail to work out the decent cuts. I was swaying towards stone 3 but now I’m thinking I should maybe go back and request that more are offered?

Yes, definitely request to see more options that fall within the "super ideal cut" proportion ranges listed earlier.

You'll get a diamond that has superior light performance in a variety of lighting conditions when all the angles play nice with one another.

F VS2 is a great jumping off point to get colorless and clarity for a very good value.

 

[Jack123]

Yeah, unfortunately none would be considered a truly excellent cut, so I would suggest going back and asking the jeweler to find you a stone within the ranges given above. I think most people would rather have a slightly smaller stone with a better cut, as cut = fire/brilliance vs a bigger stone with a poorer cut

In your experience do you think this is why he was able to offer these diamonds within my budget? As when I was looking online I was struggling to find a 0.8ct with this spec for £3000 on its alone without the setting.

I am wondering if I request it to meet all these parameters will it then be at a much higher premium? Thanks in advance

 

[lovedogs]

In your experience do you think this is why he was able to offer these diamonds within my budget? As when I was looking online I was struggling to find a 0.8ct with this spec for £3000 on its alone without the setting.

I am wondering if I request it to meet all these parameters will it then be at a much higher premium? Thanks in advance

Not sure how much more he would charge for a better cut, but IMHO it's not a good deal if the stone you're getting isnt a good one.

 

[Jack123]

Not sure how much more he would charge for a better cut, but IMHO it's not a good deal if the stone you're getting isnt a good one.

Any tips when viewing stones in person? I am looking to view them on Wednesday and it will be my first time viewing stones in detail so I would like to know what to look out for? All I've done to date is look at premade rings with my naked eye.

 

[DejaWiz]

Any tips when viewing stones in person? I am looking to view them on Wednesday and it will be my first time viewing stones in detail so I would like to know what to look out for? All I've done to date is look at premade rings with my naked eye.

Lots and lots of great info in the Glossary section.

Glossary

 

[Jack123]

Lots and lots of great info in the Glossary section.

Glossary

I just took a quick look in the glossary section and can see alot of detailed information on florescence, clarity etc.. all useful. But I couldn't see anything particularly related to viewing diamonds? Should I request that I view through a loupe?

 

[DejaWiz]

I just took a quick look in the glossary section and can see alot of detailed information on florescence, clarity etc.. all useful. But I couldn't see anything particularly related to viewing diamonds? Should I request that I view through a loupe?

Certainly. Most jewelers will have 10x loupes or magnifying glasses available for customer use.

Some further advice: ask to view the diamonds in various lighting conditions.
Direct sunlight, Indirect lighting (to gauge brilliance), and Spotlighting (to gauge fire).

...and view them in mock-up settings similar to what you plan on buying (yellow or white gold, platinum, etc).

How Light Affects a Diamond's Appearance - GIA 4Cs

Light is a major factor that affects a diamond’s appearance: diamond cut and the surrounding environment’s diamond light source play a significant role in how the round brilliant diamond looks.

4cs.gia.edu

 

[glitterata]

Most jewelry stores have dazzling lights that make all diamonds look beautiful and make it very hard to judge what they'll look like on a rainy day in your kitchen or office or garden. Ask to see them in daylight and ordinary office light, far from the dazzling store lights. Take them to a window, a doorway, a hallway. Don't buy a stone you've only seen in jewelry-store lighting.

 

[sledge]

Does your 3,000-3,500 pound budget include the setting or is that for the stone only?

 

[Jack123]

Most jewelry stores have dazzling lights that make all diamonds look beautiful and make it very hard to judge what they'll look like on a rainy day in your kitchen or office or garden. Ask to see them in daylight and ordinary office light, far from the dazzling store lights. Take them to a window, a doorway, a hallway. Don't buy a stone you've only seen in jewelry-store lighting.

I'll try and do this. So far all jeweller's I've visited have been reluctant to actually hand the ring over for me to hold and view closely myself. I can imagine they would get funny if I asked to view in daylight? Is this standard practice?

 

[Jack123]

Does your 3,000-3,500 pound budget include the setting or is that for the stone only?

Hi, the budget of £3-3.5k is all in. And the stones offered with setting described was offered by the jeweler within that budget.

 

[Jack123]

This is the latest I have been offered, albeit over budget at £3600.

 

[dk168]

Hi, the budget of £3-3.5k is all in. And the stones offered with setting described was offered by the jeweler within that budget.

Seeing you are in UK, when you said "all in", does the customs and import charges been factored in?

Be prepared to add at least 22% of the purchase price of the ring as customs and import charges.

IMHO, it still works out to be a better deal to import a stone and ring.

I found this combination via White Flash with room to spare for customs and import charges (the ring is in Platinum which is 200 USD more than the 14K WG version):



Please note that:
* I have not purchased from WF before, however, I have ready a lot of good reviews about them. They would be my vendor of choice if I were in the market for a MRB diamond.
* I am not an expert on cuts, however, WF's A Cut Above (ACA) comes highly recommended on this board.

Good luck with your search.

DK

 

[DejaWiz]

This is the latest I have been offered, albeit over budget at £3600.

Oof...I don't like some of those proportions.

13.5% crown height - I like to see 14.5% minimum, and 15-16% preferred.

41.8° PA - 40.6-40.9° preferred.

Table 57% - 55-57% preferred, but 53-58% can be acceptable.

31.5° CA - 34-35° preferred (more on this below)

62.3% depth - 59.5-62% preferred, but up to 62.5% may be OK depending on the other measurements

75% LGF - 76-80% preferred.

Clarity remark - Twinning wisp...this, for me, is an automatic disqualifier. It's a VS2, so it may or may not impact light performance.

More on the PA and CA relationship, complementing angles are important:
If PA is 40.6, try to target CA of 34.9-35.5°
If PA is 40.7, try to target CA of 34.6 to 35.2°
If PA is 40.8, try to target CA of 34.3 to 34.9°
If PA is 40.9, try to target CA of 34.0 to 34.6°

... all of that above is just "rule of thumb", so light performance can be acceptable (in some cases amazing) if the PA and CA (or any other proportions) don't fall within complementing/preferred ranges. Your eyes will tell you.

A diamond can perform much different when being viewed as a loose piece compared to it being mounted in a setting. It's crucial to see it in various lighting conditions and, if it's a loose piece, in a mock-up setting also in various lighting conditions.

 

[DejaWiz]

Seeing you are in UK, when you said "all in", does the customs and import charges been factored in?

Be prepared to add at least 22% of the purchase price of the ring as customs and import charges.

IMHO, it still works out to be a better deal to import a stone and ring.

I found this combination via White Flash with room to spare for customs and import charges (the ring is in Platinum which is 200 USD more than the 14K WG version):



Please note that:
* I have not purchased from WF before, however, I have ready a lot of good reviews about them. They would be my vendor of choice if I were in the market for a MRB diamond.
* I am not an expert on cuts, however, WF's A Cut Above (ACA) comes highly recommended on this board.

Good luck with your search.

DK

I agree with this. WF ACA diamonds are very strictly vetted to ensure the best possible light performance. Plus, they have about the best upgrade policy in the world.

 

[Jack123]

Seeing you are in UK, when you said "all in", does the customs and import charges been factored in?

Be prepared to add at least 22% of the purchase price of the ring as customs and import charges.

IMHO, it still works out to be a better deal to import a stone and ring.

I found this combination via White Flash with room to spare for customs and import charges (the ring is in Platinum which is 200 USD more than the 14K WG version):



Please note that:
* I have not purchased from WF before, however, I have ready a lot of good reviews about them. They would be my vendor of choice if I were in the market for a MRB diamond.
* I am not an expert on cuts, however, WF's A Cut Above (ACA) comes highly recommended on this board.

Good luck with your search.

DK

Apologies I wasn't clear. I am purchasing from a local jeweller so the cost quoted to me is final price, hence the term all in. So my budget is £3-3.5k for everything, setting diamond etc and these are what are being offered so far within that budget.

 

[Jack123]

Oof...I don't like some of those proportions.

13.5% crown height - I like to see 14.5% minimum, and 15-16% preferred.

41.8° PA - 40.6-40.9° preferred.

Table 57% - 55-57% preferred, but 53-58% can be acceptable.

31.5° CA - 34-35° preferred (more on this below)

62.3% depth - 59.5-62% preferred, but up to 62.5% may be OK depending on the other measurements

75% LGF - 76-80% preferred.

Clarity remark - Twinning wisp...this, for me, is an automatic disqualifier. It's a VS2, so it may or may not impact light performance.

More on the PA and CA relationship, complementing angles are important:
If PA is 40.6, try to target CA of 34.9-35.5°
If PA is 40.7, try to target CA of 34.6 to 35.2°
If PA is 40.8, try to target CA of 34.3 to 34.9°
If PA is 40.9, try to target CA of 34.0 to 34.6°

... all of that above is just "rule of thumb", so light performance can be acceptable (in some cases amazing) if the PA and CA (or any other proportions) don't fall within complementing/preferred ranges. Your eyes will tell you.

A diamond can perform much different when being viewed as a loose piece compared to it being mounted in a setting. It's crucial to see it in various lighting conditions and, if it's a loose piece, in a mock-up setting also in various lighting conditions.

Thanks for your detailed response. I have ruled this one out anyway purely on going over my budget. I have asked that he looks at slightly lower carats down to 0.7 to try and hit proportions whilst staying in budget. He is keen for me to come and view some diamonds in person and advised that its easy to get caught up in the science.

 

[sledge]

Apologies I wasn't clear. I am purchasing from a local jeweller so the cost quoted to me is final price, hence the term all in. So my budget is £3-3.5k for everything, setting diamond etc and these are what are being offered so far within that budget.

Not to keep pestering but there are 3 things to consider and I want to be clear. The jeweler price of £3,500 max includes setting, diamond AND all taxes?

In the US it’s common for jeweler to quote a price for diamond + setting but taxes are added SEPARATELY.

 

[Jack123]

Not to keep pestering but there are 3 things to consider and I want to be clear. The jeweler price of £3,500 max includes setting, diamond AND all taxes?

In the US it’s common for jeweler to quote a price for diamond + setting but taxes are added SEPARATELY.

I believe that to include all taxes also. If its not I will be disappointed as I made it very clear my budget was for everything, not to add costs later on to take it over.

 

[sledge]

Oof...I don't like some of those proportions.

13.5% crown height - I like to see 14.5% minimum, and 15-16% preferred.

41.8° PA - 40.6-40.9° preferred.

Table 57% - 55-57% preferred, but 53-58% can be acceptable.

31.5° CA - 34-35° preferred (more on this below)

62.3% depth - 59.5-62% preferred, but up to 62.5% may be OK depending on the other measurements

75% LGF - 76-80% preferred.

Clarity remark - Twinning wisp...this, for me, is an automatic disqualifier. It's a VS2, so it may or may not impact light performance.

More on the PA and CA relationship, complementing angles are important:
If PA is 40.6, try to target CA of 34.9-35.5°
If PA is 40.7, try to target CA of 34.6 to 35.2°
If PA is 40.8, try to target CA of 34.3 to 34.9°
If PA is 40.9, try to target CA of 34.0 to 34.6°

... all of that above is just "rule of thumb", so light performance can be acceptable (in some cases amazing) if the PA and CA (or any other proportions) don't fall within complementing/preferred ranges. Your eyes will tell you.

A diamond can perform much different when being viewed as a loose piece compared to it being mounted in a setting. It's crucial to see it in various lighting conditions and, if it's a loose piece, in a mock-up setting also in various lighting conditions.

62.3 depth is okay.

So are 75 LGF’s. Remember that GIA rounds LGF’s to nearest 5% so 75 or 80 is recommended. The actuals in a 75 will vary from 73-77, whereas the actuals on a 80 will vary from 78-82.

Numerically smaller LGF’s result in fatter arrows and more contrast in the stone which can be appealing to some. Also they provide a little more fire in indirect/soft lighting conditions. Numerically larger LGF’s result in more skinny arrows but provide a better balance in very bright lighting. Many super ideal vendors consider 77-78 a nice balanced range, and nearly all super ideals are 76-79. Keep in mind super ideal stones normally come with AGS reports which report LGF to the nearest 1%. In GIA speak 75 or 80 does the same but could vary a little low or high because of their gross rounding.



Ultimately you have to visually assess and consider all the other proportions as sometimes a shorter or longer LGF can balance out a stone appropriately.

Facets Explained: Understanding the Lower Halves

Within robust diamond proportion sets, the lower girdle facets have great influence on the life and character of a diamond, particularly if the diamond has good patterning (optical symmetry or ‘Hearts & Arrows’ diamonds).

www.whiteflash.com

IMO, the much bigger elephant in the room is that 32.5/41.8 combo. It does have an inverse relationship (shallow crown/steep pavilion or vice versa) but the pavilion crosses 41.2 and things go wonky when that happens.

Below is an example I used yesterday for someone shopping a 60-ish table with high pavilion. Light doesn’t strike off the pavilions properly after a certain angle and it causes translucent arrows which make for an unattractive stone that lacks contrast brilliance.



In comparison to a stone within ideal proportions:

 

[sledge]

I believe that to include all taxes also. If its not I will be disappointed as I made it very clear my budget was for everything, not to add costs later on to take it over.

Another way to consider this.

£3,500 max = $4,962 (using Google exchange rate)

$4,962 /1.25 (duties & taxes) = $3,969 max budget if you import. That leaves you 25% for duties & taxes and I believe UK is only 22% best I recall.

Im currently on my mobile but you can find a GIA 3X stone with ideal recommended proportions and 0.70-ish size for your budget. I started searching last night on my laptop and will try to throw up a few options later when I can more easily search.