Royal Jewels

[prince.of.preslav]

Hey, Bobby, didn't mean to imply ANY criticism. You're right far more often than I am, that's for sure. I assumed you had several books because you often dig up stuff I haven't found online. The previous incarnation of gems in these pieces is interesting & it's possible what you read about the Diamond Loop was right.

Love the 4 bracelets, always wished I had at least 2 of them whenever I saw them. I'd settle for one!

--- Laurie

But Dearest Laurie, I didn't see any criticism in you post. I just explained the situation with my books on royalty and said that I'm sorry for my error. If you've felt that my post was in some way critical to you, then I apologize siscerely.

Bobby, you are most welcome and I do most sincerely apologize for my comments that caused your discomfort. I will endeavor not to take make any more similar comments in the future. Thank you for your list of the Queen Mother's tiaras. To be honest, many of these tiaras are unknown to me and I'd like to see as many pictures as you have.

Thank you for the unferstanding, Danny. Of course this appeal was to other posters too. Would you, please, tell me which tiaras you're unfamiliar with so that I can post photos? Thanks again.

Hi Bobby,

I was thinking that ornament & earrings were the same that Grace used in this event of Iran Family Royal:

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/imperia ... polis.html

I'm very NOT sure about this, MAYBE Grace used ornament & earring in another event of Iran Family Royal.

I'd disagree with you, Diana. The earrings and hair ornament (known as Serre-Chignon tiara), which Princess Grace used at the Persepolis look quite different than the ones from your photo.
Here's a photo from the Persepolis:

Bobby

 

[Imdanny]

For everyone that is awaiting the list of tiaras owned and worn by the Queen Mother:

The tiaras she's worn in public:
1. Boucheron Honeycomb tiata
2. the Orintal Circlet
3. the Papyrus tiara - later worn by Princess Margaret
4. the Teck Circle tiara/necklace
5. Turquoise tiara (part of a parure)
6. the Strathmore Rose tiara
7. Queen Mary's fringe tiara
8. Princess Victoria (aunt of GVI)'s fringe tiara
9. the Scroll tiara
10. Delhi Durbar dideme
11. Aquamarine tiara (now with Princess Anne)
12. the Teck Crescnt tiara
13. the bracelets bandeau*
14. the Regal Circlet/Crown

Tiaras she's suposingly owned:
15. a double meander tiara, probably worn by Princess Anne
16. the sold amethyst tiara (part of a parure)

If some tiaras are unknow to you, please let me know so that I can post photos.

Bobby, the only ones I remember seeing are 1 (if in fact this is the one we see Camilla wear today although I could be wrong) and 13 (which you just posted, thank you). Edit, no I do remember 10. I think I've seen Princess Anne wearing 9, but I'm not sure.

 

[JewelFreak]

TL, the chain on Thos. More is beautiful, painting too. My early British jewels book says those are called Livery Collars & had been in use by that time for at least a couple hundred years. The "S" stands for [Ma] Souverayne (My Sovereign) & they usually had other symbols hanging from them -- in the case of your pic, the Tudor Rose. Depending on your rank, you got gold, silver or some baser metal. They were also given as an honor or gesture of friendship to foreigners who helped the king in some way.

Here's a painting by Memling from the time of Edward IV, c. 1468 (though collars are recorded in the will of John of Gaunt in 1399 with S's like the one on T. More). This one is a Yorkist collar. Edward IV adopted 2 of his badges for it -- a sun & the rose (White Rose of York), plus there's a third badge hanging from it, the White Lion of March, in silver.

-- Laurie

P.S. Glad you liked the swan, Danny. I could just steal that little guy away & keep him. Post pics of your Cartier goodies when they come!!

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Ok, here are photos of Queen Elizabeth's tiaras. They are ordered as in the list:

 

[JewelFreak]

Bobby, no need to apologize to me! I thought I had offended you. Let's agree we're buddies!

I'd like to see photos of Queen Mary's and Princess Victoria's fringe tiaras. Takes close examination to tell one fringe tiara from another, seems to me.

I don't know where I got the idea (erroneous, obviously) that the Oriental one was part of the Greville inheritance. But in looking it up, I found a fascinating article about Maggie Greville -- what a character, to say the least! http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.com/2010/05/portrait-of-lady-margaret-helen.html

So you found QEQM's will, Bobby? In my ramblings I also happened on some articles from '08 recounting a kerfuffle about the sealing of royal wills -- also really interesting. The practice started in 1910, before that I suppose they were public as everyone else's. When Queen Mary's brother died & left the Cambridge emeralds to his mistress & QM got them back, she was afraid of a scandal on the subject just at the time of George V's coronation, so worked it out that his will would be sealed. Buck House followed this precedent when Princess Margaret &the Queen Mother died -- but some nutjob claiming to be Margaret's illegitimate son sued & the arrangement came to light. Didn't find anything on the court's decision but guess it must have forced them to make the wills public.

It also confirmed that the Queen Mum left the Greville jewels to Queen Elizabeth (they are private property, not crown jewels),taking advantage of a tax-free provision for anything passed from sovereign to sovereign.

Would love to see the will myself, if you can remember where you found it.

--- Laurie

 

[prince.of.preslav]

#2

 

[prince.of.preslav]

#3

 

[prince.of.preslav]

#4

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Bobby, no need to apologize to me! I thought I had offended you. Let's agree we're buddies!
...
--- Laurie

Yes, Laurie, we're buddies And honestly I didn't feel offended, not even for a minute. But where did I state that I've found QEQM's last will? I've only seen a scanned page from Mrs Greville's but I'm quite certain that I've not mentioned it here...

A photo of both fringe tiaras you can see just right after your post.

Regards,
Bobby

 

[Imdanny]

-- Laurie

P.S. Glad you liked the swan, Danny. I could just steal that little guy away & keep him. Post pics of your Cartier goodies when they come!!

Laurie, yes, of course, it's a swan! My bad.

Yes, I will post pictures. Thanks for asking.

Bobby, so as not to take up any more space than necessary, I'll thank you here and now for these magnificent pictures! Wow!

 

[dianab]

Princess Grace

 

[alexander1917]

#3

no 4, the Dehli Durbar Tiara, was worn by HM the Queen Elizabeth during State opening of Parliament in South Africa, 1947. It was at this point on loan from Queen Mary.

 

[laurensmama]

So except for the tiara which was sold by the Queen Mother, am I safe in assuming that all of these lovely tiaras now belong to the Queen? The ones that were loaned to other members of the family, ie Margret and Anne, are they still in the family? Which begs the question how many does Queen Elizabeth II own? I have only seen a small list of the usual pieces.

 

[T L]

TL, the chain on Thos. More is beautiful, painting too. My early British jewels book says those are called Livery Collars & had been in use by that time for at least a couple hundred years. The "S" stands for [Ma] Souverayne (My Sovereign) & they usually had other symbols hanging from them -- in the case of your pic, the Tudor Rose. Depending on your rank, you got gold, silver or some baser metal. They were also given as an honor or gesture of friendship to foreigners who helped the king in some way.

Here's a painting by Memling from the time of Edward IV, c. 1468 (though collars are recorded in the will of John of Gaunt in 1399 with S's like the one on T. More). This one is a Yorkist collar. Edward IV adopted 2 of his badges for it -- a sun & the rose (White Rose of York), plus there's a third badge hanging from it, the White Lion of March, in silver.

-- Laurie

P.S. Glad you liked the swan, Danny. I could just steal that little guy away & keep him. Post pics of your Cartier goodies when they come!!

Thanks Laurie for the information on the "S" in the collar and thank you for the painting. I'm glad someone appreciates my love of medieval jewelry. It's difficult because so little of it survives today and most of what we have to look at are in paintings.

 

[alexander1917]

So except for the tiara which was sold by the Queen Mother, am I safe in assuming that all of these lovely tiaras now belong to the Queen? The ones that were loaned to other members of the family, ie Margret and Anne, are they still in the family? I have only seen a small list of the usual pieces.

some tiaras were sold, so also the Paltimore Tiara of Princess Margret, because as it was stated, it has no connection with the RF.

Which begs the question how many does Queen Elizabeth II own?

this is a bit difficult to say. because you have to part the items belonging to the Royal Collection (like the Oriental Circlet) or
handed over from Sovereign to Sovereign ( like Queen Victoria's bow brooches, the collet necklace, Queen Alexandras Kokoshnik Tiara (wedding gifts from foreign countries -Burmese Ruby, Aquamarin Parure, or gifts from "women of..." - Girls of Great Britain)) and private acquired pieces, like the Queen's sapphire Tiara.

I think there is a total of about 30 different tiaras, were HM got access to wear.

corrections are welcomed


some infos could be found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Person ... izabeth_II

 

[JewelFreak]

That's the sad part, TL, so little medieval jewelry has survived. I always mourn the Savoy Palace -- where John of Gaunt lived (son of Edward III, uncle of Richard II & father of Henry IV). It was reputed to be just crammed with magnificent treasures he'd acquired in his travels; it was legendary all over Europe. In 1381 there was a great uprising of the peasants & one of the first places they burned was the Savoy Palace, looted, vandalized & burned it to the ground. Heartbreaking to think of what was lost there alone.

Saw a documentary on the Anglo-Saxon Hoard last week, have you seen this stuff? Found in a farm field just a few years ago, the largest group of Anglo-Saxon gold ever discovered. Dates from about 700 AD. The craftsmanship is superb, besides the fact that everything is solid gold. Most of it is pieces from battle gear, obviously worn by royalty or high nobility. They surmise somebody must have stored it & never come back for it. Here are some photos & if this doesn't count as jewelry, nothing does!

Much of it is tiny tiny -- how did they manage it without magnifying lenses, let alone eyeglasses?

 

[JewelFreak]

Here are a few more. These two pieces are inlaid with garnets -- so is the pic above. On top of the garnets were laid thin thin thin pieces of glass shaped exactly to each piece of stone with 1/100th of an inch separating them. Astounding.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

some tiaras were sold, so also the Paltimore Tiara of Princess Margret, because as it was stated, it has no connection with the RF.

Which begs the question how many does Queen Elizabeth II own?

this is a bit difficult to say. because you have to part the items belonging to the Royal Collection (like the Oriental Circlet) or
handed over from Sovereign to Sovereign ( like Queen Victoria's bow brooches, the collet necklace, Queen Alexandras Kokoshnik Tiara (wedding gifts from foreign countries -Burmese Ruby, Aquamarin Parure, or gifts from "women of..." - Girls of Great Britain)) and private acquired pieces, like the Queen's sapphire Tiara.

I think there is a total of about 30 different tiaras, were HM got access to wear.

corrections are welcomed


some infos could be found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Person ... izabeth_II

Alexander, are you sure there are about 30 tiaras the Queen " got access to wear"? I just made a list and it shows 14 tiaras HM has worn in the past 63 years. Out of them 2 were left to the Crown by Queen Victoria (the Oriental Circlet and George IV's Diademe), 3 were dismantled for the creation of 2 new tiaras, one was given to Princess Diana and one was on loan from the Duke of Norfolk. In addition to these tiaras, Elizabeth II owns 6 or 7 more from her mother's estate, 4 or 5 from Queen Mary and suposingly Queen Alexandra's Rundell tiara. That makes between 20 and 23 tiaras in HM's possesion. My list may not be complete, though. I can post it, if you (or others) want.

PS: Isn't Queen Alexandra's Kokoshnik Elizabeth II's private property and an inhertance from her grandmother. Also the GGB&I tiara was a wedding present from Queen Mary, why do you say that it's one of the jewels passed from Queen to Queen? I also belive that the ruby tiara is HM's private property.

Bobby

 

[alexander1917]

some tiaras were sold, so also the Paltimore Tiara of Princess Margret, because as it was stated, it has no connection with the RF.

Which begs the question how many does Queen Elizabeth II own?

this is a bit difficult to say. because you have to part the items belonging to the Royal Collection (like the Oriental Circlet) or
handed over from Sovereign to Sovereign ( like Queen Victoria's bow brooches, the collet necklace, Queen Alexandras Kokoshnik Tiara (wedding gifts from foreign countries -Burmese Ruby, Aquamarin Parure, or gifts from "women of..." - Girls of Great Britain)) and private acquired pieces, like the Queen's sapphire Tiara.

I think there is a total of about 30 different tiaras, were HM got access to wear.

corrections are welcomed


some infos could be found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Person ... izabeth_II

Alexander, are you sure there are about 30 tiaras the Queen " got access to wear"? I just made a list and it shows 14 tiaras HM has worn in the past 63 years. Out of them 2 were left to the Crown by Queen Victoria (the Oriental Circlet and George IV's Diademe), 3 were dismantled for the creation of 2 new tiaras, one was given to Princess Diana and one was on loan from the Duke of Norfolk. In addition to these tiaras, Elizabeth II owns 6 or 7 more from her mother's estate, 4 or 5 from Queen Mary and suposingly Queen Alexandra's Rundell tiara. That makes between 20 and 23 tiaras in HM's possesion. My list may not be complete, though. I can post it, if you (or others) want.

PS: Isn't Queen Alexandra's Kokoshnik Elizabeth II's private property and an inhertance from her grandmother. Also the GGB&I tiara was a wedding present from Queen Mary, why do you say that it's one of the jewels passed from Queen to Queen? I also belive that the ruby tiara is HM's private property.

Bobby

of course we can post a list.

I think (!) that HM's private property is a collection of art, land and homes which passed from Sovereign to Soveriegn. They are not property of the State or the Crown.
And although it's private property they are some gifts - like the rubies of the Burmese Tiara, or the GoGBaITiara which from official fonds, people and so one, which should go from Sovereign to Sovereign.
I further think, that QM with her well-grounded knowledge of history and of royal anastors, she left a detailed "wish"list what items will be left to the next King or Queen.


and of course some other items are property of HM, but you really can think of an action or private selling of Cullinan chips???

 

[alexander1917]

Tiaras in HM's collection

 

[alexander1917]

part2

 

[alexander1917]

part3

 

[alexander1917]

part4

 

[alexander1917]

part5

 

[prince.of.preslav]

of course we can post a list.

I think (!) that HM's private property is a collection of art, land and homes which passed from Sovereign to Soveriegn. They are not property of the State or the Crown.
And although it's private property they are some gifts - like the rubies of the Burmese Tiara, or the GoGBaITiara which from official fonds, people and so one, which should go from Sovereign to Sovereign.
I further think, that QM with her well-grounded knowledge of history and of royal anastors, she left a detailed "wish"list what items will be left to the next King or Queen.


and of course some other items are property of HM, but you really can think of an action or private selling of Cullinan chips???

Hi Alexander!

By private property we should understand the real estate, works of art, furniture, etc that HM owns as a private individual and that she can pass to her descendants and friends. Private property also includes the jewels that have been presented to The Queen, that she has aquaired privateley or has inherited from family members, friends and other people. The jewels that automatically pass from one Sovereign to another (such as QV's collet necklace, Prince Albert's sapphire brooch, the Hannoverian pearls and others) aren't Elizabeth's private property.
Yes, the Burmese rubies (now set in a tiara), the fringe necklace, the GGB&I tiara and other jewels were bought by fund raising, but so were other jewels like the Kent fringe tiara and a sautoir for Princess Royal Mary among others and these jewels are/were defiantly the private property of these families. Do you think that they should also pass from a King to a King? I'd also like to see the Burmese tiara the Girls of GB&I, the kokoshnik, the chips and many other jewels worn by the next Queens of GB, but there's nothing that prevents HM to will these pieces to other members of her family, even you and me.

Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Re your photos - First - Thanks for posting. Some of them were new to me. But Alexander, are you sure that Queen Elizabeth II owns the Teck Circle tiara/necklace and the Turquoise parure that her sister once wore? Also, the State Diademe and the Oriental Circlet aren't HM's property. They are among the jewels that Queen Victoria left to the Crown. The Greek Key tiara was a wedding present from Princess Alice, the mother of Prince Philip and was later presented to Princess Anne, The Princess Royal, thus it's not part of HM's collection anymore.

Bobby

 

[laurensmama]

Thank you so much for the discussion, I am truly enjoying it. Bobby could you possibly make a list of QEII's tiaras, divided by personal property, sovereign to sovereign, etc since I dont know all of the names of QEIIs tiaras? Also does the strathmore tiara belong to QEII or did it go back to the Strathmore family? Maybe QEII has it since it was a wedding present to the Queen Mother? Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks so much.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Here's the list of tiaras worn in public by Queen Elizabeth II that I made today:

1. Grand Duchess Vladimir tiara - with pearl or emerald pendants or empty
2. the 1957 Brazilian gift (dismantled)
3. the 1968 Brazilian gift aquamarines (dismantled)
4. the 1971 aquamarine tiara (made with stones from #2 and 3)
5. the Girls of Great Britain and Ireland tiara
6. Queen Alexandra's Kokoshnik
7. the Oriental Circlet (left to the Crown by QV)
8. the Burmese ruby tiara
9. the Sapphire tiara
10. the Nizam of Hyderabad (dismanted to crate #
11. Queen Mary's Lover's Knot (wedding present to Lady Diana)
12. Queen Mary's fringe
13. George IV's Diademe (left to the Crown by QV)
14. a tiara from the Dukes of Norfolk (on loan)

From her mother she must've inherited:
1. the Boucheron Honeycomb
2. the Rose tiara
3. Pss Victoria's fringe tiara
4. the Scroll tiara
5. the Delhi Durbar diademe
6. the Teck Crescent
7. the double meander

From Queen Mary, not worn:
1. a filigree diamond tiara
2. a sapphire bandeau/tiara (also worn by Pss Margaret)
3. a diamond lozenge tiara
4. the Surrey tiara
5. an unidentified diamond tiara
6. Queen Alexandra's Rundell tiara

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Thank you so much for the discussion, I am truly enjoying it. Bobby could you possibly make a list of QEII's tiaras, divided by personal property, sovereign to sovereign, etc since I dont know all of the names of QEIIs tiaras? Also does the strathmore tiara belong to QEII or did it go back to the Strathmore family? Maybe QEII has it since it was a wedding present to the Queen Mother? Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks so much.

The list is posted. The tiaras that pass from Sovereign to Sovereign are the ones that Queen Victoria left to the Crown.

As you say, laurensmama, the Rose tiara was a wedding present to Lady Elizabeth from her father, the 14th Earl of Strathmore. I've so far never heard of a wedding present that reverts to the presenter's family after the presented person's death. That's why I'd say that the said tiara is still in the vaults in BP

Bobby

 

[JewelFreak]

Thanks for the photos, Alexander. I don't recall seeing the necklace the Queen is wearing in the last photo -- do you have any info about it? Actually it might be 2 necklaces, but I mean the one with rubies.

In modern days, the term "sovereign to sovereign" can be confusing. Crown property is owned & maintained by the Nation for the use of the sovereign. Now that the RF pays taxes, they're liable for estate duty, don't know to what extent. Privately-owned items left by one sovereign (includes consorts) to the current one are apparently exempt. That, I've read, is why the QM left her jewels to Elizabeth -- anything she willed directly to Princess Anne or Prince Charles, for instance, would be eligible for death tax. Crown (e.g. owned by the country) jewelry would not figure in this, since it legally does not belong to the RF, but to the nation. The things Victoria left to the Crown fall in this category.

An article written during one period of republican fervor speculated on the nightmare that would entail abolishing a royal family in the UK. Figuring out what is Crown property & what private would be impossible in so many cases!

I mentioned earlier that the QM's and Margaret's wills were sealed due to a deal made law by the Queen's reps & a judge, without anyone else's knowledge, including said judge's successor. When some crackpot claiming to be Princess Margaret's secret son sued to open her will, the courts found against him. He has appealed & a decision is expected from the Court of Appeals late this year.

--- Laurie