Ruby, ruby, ruby baby!

[RedSpinel]

Yep.

Reacts to UV light...

What does that^^ mean? Is there something important about a ruby reacting to UV light?

Its got some pretty good transparency, which is pretty rare for most rubies(just look at the completely opaque rubies at most chain jewelers). Its a little shallow, but it doesnt really matter I guess because you cant see any window anyway. Besides, a shallow, but mostly transparent ruby is preferable to a deeper cut opaque ruby....

I always worry when it comes to buying rubies, because you often dont really know what you're getting til you get it, then you find it looks different than it did in the pictures! You often dont know if you might have paid too much, til you get it..... Then often you find out that you DID pay too much! But it didnt seem that way when you were ordering it based on its pics.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how lucky Uppy is to have a 2ct stone like this? They are difficult to find. You really need to move away from "cut" is king!

I also don't understand your point about the residue -v- having to disclose to a jeweller. The issue with Ruby treatments (NOT this level of residue) is that acid baths used sometimes when setting can cause the filling to turn white, crack the stone etc. Uppy doesn't need to disclose this treatment to a jeweller because her ruby is not filled. Disclosing treatments to a jeweller and finding a good setter are two completely different things.

GRS are a well respected Gem Laboratory and used commonly by people in Europe (over AGL in most cases). Please don't insinuate that because Ebay sellers use them they're no good. That's not the case at all.

No offense, but you didnt seem to understand the very sentence that you took the time to highlight. I very clearly stated that "it doesnt matter that the stone is shallow"..... So, no I dont think that "cut is king", but its its important most of the time. You seem to be saying that cut isnt hardly important at all, most of the time, and I respectfully disagree with that. But its not that important with this particular stone, as I posted.

To Jeffsdvs101: I mentioned to tell the jeweler based on her statements about the mention of possible treatment to the ruby. It does say that in the appraisal, does it not? I've read posts here where people have said its not that bad, but I'm just saying its better to be forthcoming to protect yourself. Thats my opinion based on personal experience, if you disagree with that, thats your prerogative.

To be clear though, because it seems people are reacting negatively to my post even though there wasnt anything negative in my post, I like the stone, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!

Redspinel - I haven't acted negatively to your post but I felt that it contained inaccuracies. As Jeff and I have both said there is absolutely NO reason to tell a jeweller about minimal residue. It's not the same as a filler. Not the same at all. Therefore why say anything? It makes no difference to the way the stone is handled from a heated or unheated stone.

I think your comment about the cut of Uppy's stone was uncalled for. It's a beautiful stone. You recently started a thread calling anything other than precision cut "lousy" and to point out that it's shallow is just not warranted. Having said that, I'm glad that you would buy it in a heartbeat. Most people would.

As to your comment that I am saying cut isn't important at all - I have no idea where you think I've said that! I have both precision cut and native cut stones. Each have their place BUT the rarity of a gem far outweighs cut - every single time.

Well, to put this needless argument to rest, I dont have a problem with the stone, and I made that pretty clear. I didnt insult the buyer or her stone, I simply stated that its a little shallow, which is a fact, but that IT DOESNT MATTER THOUGH. In other words, the slight shallowness doest take from the stone's beauty. Again, I would buy the stone, and its nicer than any ruby I own. Hopefully that clears it up.

Remember, when I posted pics of my mandarin garnet, I had people saying "its yellow, Its brown, its too shallow, it might now be worth the money to to get it recut" etc. I didnt get defensive about that, because my camera doesnt accurately portray the true color, as the stone isnt yellow or brown, and the stone WOULD be helped by re-cutting, which is what 4 of 6 cutters have said so far. The only reason the other disagreed was because of possible loss of size.

To Jeff; All I can say is that I was trying to be helpful I wasnt insulting anyone, and I was giving advice from my experience and the experiences of other, because MOST jewlers dont want to pay to replace an expensive stone if THEY damage it, so they WILL often make up excuses to get out of paying for it. It can be any excuse, it doesnt have to be a completely legitimate excuse. I've seen and heard it all. If a jeweler caught wind that there is the slightest mention of residue from whatever, or treatment, amd they werent informed about it, they might use that to try and get out of paying! Thats what I got with my star sapphire, and it wasnt fracture filled either!

The whole point of the post was to be helpful, and to prevent someone/anyone from going through what I went through, thats all. No harm, no foul........

 

[Upgradable]

Here is what Jeff has to say about the stone and its H(b) designation:

"The residues are from the Borax used in the heating process, the fissures are completely sealed, there are no residues in the cavities and it is 100% permanent, nothing needs to be said to the jeweler, the only way he could damage it would be neglect , no different to an unheated stone, and there are no special ways of taking care of it, it can be treated like any Ruby or Sapphire.

This is really no different to a "heat only" Ruby, it's just the GRS goes into extreme detail.

best wishes

Jeff."

GRS has a great explanation on their site about enhancement disclosures. The grade heat treatment of rubies H(a) says "Extremely small residues of glass-like materials present in cavities or as isolated, extremely small residues in fissures affecting the weight of the gemstone less than approximately 0.001 carat." The only difference in H(b) is the residue is described as "minor residue." They grade through H(d).

Uppy,
I really REALLY don't want to rain on your parade because I think you have a nice looking ruby in your hands, but please read this article from Richard Hughes to make the decision yourself.
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/flux_healing_mong_hsu_ruby.htm

Quotation
With the explosion of Mong Hsu ruby onto the market, it became obvious that traditional lab nomenclature was not equipped to deal with this treatment. Thus in 1997, while directing the colored stone identification department of the Los Angeles office of European Gem Labs (EGL), I developed terminology to honestly describe this treatment. The idea was to provide the customer with an estimate of how this treatment had impacted the gem. A number of labs (AGTA, GIA, Gübelin, SSEF, GIT, GAAJ) have now adopted elements of this nomenclature and refined its application (see Lab Manual Harmonization Committee, 2004). The author’s suggested nomenclature is as follows and it can (and should) be applied to other treatments:
•Treatment type: Indications of heating + flux healing of fractures
•Extent: Minor/moderate/significant number of flux-healed fractures
•Stability: Stable/unstable under normal wearing conditions
•Prevalence: Never/rarely/commonly/usually/always found in the market

In the case of glass infilling, the size of filled cavities is important, with larger fillings having a greater impact on the appearance and weight of the stone.

The opposite is the case with flux healing. The more perfectly the treatment is applied, the less residue that might be present in the healed fracture.

Chrono, I hope you know by now that I appreciate ALL the input I get here. I'm by no means under the illusion I have the "perfect" stone. I know it has been heated. I know, at some point it has been in the presence of additional treatments. But, beyond all, I have a document from a respected gemstone lab that tells me that what I have is a minimally altered stone from a desirable locale. HOwever, the MOST important thing for me is that I have a stone that I find amazingly beautiful and will be proud to own and wear for a very long time. I'm by no means a stone snob. I like what I like because it pleases my eye. It's only a bonus when other factors fall in line.

Thanks again for the added info. I respect Richard's knowledge base, and am glad to know that there is a significant attempt to standardize and make transparent the nature of ruby treatments.

 

[jeffdvs101]

these articles were written a long time ago as result of non disclosure of the treatment,and in those days most were certifying as heat only.....since then the GRS has come up with full disclosure grading system, which clearly states, the amounts of residue present, do not confuse this with lead-glass filling, totally different animal!

 

[chrono]

The stone might not be as minimally altered as one might think because the better the treatment is applied, the less residue is left to be detected. producing a lower/better treatment rating. Mong Hsu rubies are also from Burma, hence can be called Burmese rubies.

I am in the camp that as long as the buyer knows exactly what he/she is getting and loves the stone, all is well. Thank you for not taking offense. Enjoy your beautiful ruby and I look forward to the setting process and seeing pictures of you wearing it with happiness.

 

[chrono]

This GIA article is newer and also written by Vincent Pardieu and others, released in 2010. Just for everyone's reading pleasure to read up more about the various heating treatments done on rubies. There are 3 different varieties and it is interesting to note the differences.

FAPFH – Flux Assisted Partial Fissure Healing
GFF – Glass Fissure Filled
LGFF – Lead Glass Fissure Filled

While FAPFH, LGFF and GFF stones all result in stones that have been “clarity enhanced”, the essential difference between the three types of treatment is that the fissures in FAPFH treated material are “healed” closed by synthesis while fissures in either LGFF or GFF are not, i.e., FAPFH fissures are stable (once any surface glass has been removed by HF) whereas LGFF and GFF treated fractures unstable (they will break down and become obviously visible). In severe cases of LGFF treated rubies the LMHC laboratories developed severely worded
descriptions; these are “ruby with glass” and “ruby‐glass composite”.

There is a whole lot more to it which I highly recommend reading through the entire paper.

http://www.gia.edu/research-resources/news-from-research/Flux_heated_and_glass_filled_rubies_from_Mozambique_edu.pdf

 

[RedSpinel]

these articles were written a long time ago as result of non disclosure of the treatment,and in those days most were certifying as heat only.....since then the GRS has come up with full disclosure grading system, which clearly states, the amounts of residue present, do not confuse this with lead-glass filling, totally different animal!

Not to get too far off topic here, but with cheaper rubies that are filled and treated, what are the most common substances found these days? I've read that this kind of thing changes from time to time, so I figured someone here would have the more up-to-date knowledge.
How do they get the "filler" deep into the small cracks and fissures of a ruby in the first place?

I hope similar material to that bought by the OP is still available in a few months, because after tomorrows vacation plus all the recent spending, as well as other planned gem purchases, it's be a little while til I can afford one.......

 

[jeffdvs101]

it will vary from stone to stone, depending on cracks and fissures, some stones will therefore show more than others!

to clarify the current GRS grading for Ruby:



Important Information and Limitation of the Use of GRS Gemresearch Swiss Lab Gemstone Reports

All GRS Gemresearch Swisslab Gemstone Reports will be printed on original paper (marked with GRS) and will bear an official signature. No corrections or alternations of any form shall be accepted on the Gemstone Reports, and all Gemstone Reports are laminated for protection. The Gemstone Reports, trademarks such as H (a), E (IM), or service marks of GRS Gemresearch Swisslab may not be reproduced in whole, or in part, without the prior written authorization of GRS Gemresearch Swisslab. A GRS report (after 2001) must have two GRS holograms otherwise the report is not valid. A GRS Gemresearch Swisslab Gemstone Report contains the identification of gemstones by photographic images, descriptions, dimensions, and weight and stating an opinion on their authenticity, treatment, country of origin, quality, and rarity. This GRS Report does not constitute a guarantee for or an appraisal of the object or gemstone described there in. The physical appearance of an object or gemstone may differ from its photographic image in the Gemstone Report. Determination of the authenticity and country of origin of a gemstone is based on the testing of chemical and physical properties and internal characteristics (e.g. inclusions and growth structures) using standard gemological instruments and modem analytical instruments including spectrometers. The conclusion on the country of origin, authenticity and treatment of gemstones is an opinion of the laboratory based on the direct comparison of the findings with those obtained from the analyses of reference materials, as well as those in published literature. The laboratory to the extent reasonably possible continuously updates this knowledge.

If not expressly disagreed by the client, the enhancement of rubies and sapphires are mentioned under comments as following:

No indication of thermal treatment: No gemological constraints (for instance no altered inclusions) are present which would indicate that a heat enhancement process was applied.
E Clarity and/or color are enhanced by heat. Minor residues of foreign solid materials may be present within fissures and/or cavities. The applied type of enhancement of the ruby or sapphire under consideration is, according to the opinion of GRS Gemresearch Swisslab, considered a permanent enhancement. Detailed analyses of the residues present in the gemstone includes the following grading: (Abundance of healed fissures not graded below)
H enhanced by heat (no residues present).
E or H (a) enhanced by heat, residue insignificant(indication of very small residues within fissures only).
E or H (b) enhanced by heat, minor residues are present (within fissures only).
H (c) is a transitional grade between H(b) and H(d).
H (d) enhanced by heat, significant residues present (within fissures and cavities).
H(Be) Enhanced by heat and light elements (e.g. Beryllium). Our research code E (IM) Clarity and/or color are enhanced by heat and diffusion of light elements such as Beryllium, inducing color zoning by internal migration of trace elements (incl. Beryllium) and defects, and formation of color centers. (Not corresponding to conventional surface diffusion treatment), Treatment is permanent. Recutting requires special care if thin orange rims are confined to the surface. See Internet publication http://www.gemresearch.ch/journal/index.htm...
(LIBS = Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy)
CE(O): Grading of Clarity Enhancement of Emeralds specified as None, Insignificant, Minor, Moderate, Significant. "Dried out features" indicates that materials describecd in category (O) are removed from cracks and that the gemstone's clarity can potentially be improved in a later stage by a treatment.
Other treatments will be specified on the front page as following:
C.) Coating, D.) Dyeing, O.) Significant application of colored and/or colorless oil and/or epoxy-like resins and/or wax, R.) Irradiation, use of nuclear bombardment, U.) Surface diffusion, or any combination of the above.



taken from the back of a GRS report

 

[chrono]

Not to get too far off topic here, but with cheaper rubies that are filled and treated, what are the most common substances found these days? I've read that this kind of thing changes from time to time, so I figured someone here would have the more up-to-date knowledge. How do they get the "filler" deep into the small cracks and fissures of a ruby in the first place?

The ruby is heated to temperatures that may reach as high as 1850°C in the presence of a molten flux. At these temperatures the surfaces of the ruby (alumina) in contact with the flux will slowly dissolve into the flux. During the gradual cool down period the alumina comes out of the flux and crystallizes on the nearest available surfaces. These surfaces may be those of the crucible in which the process is taking place or on the rubies being treated. If crystallization takes place on the rubies, this may be on the outer surfaces (facets) of the stones or on the inner surfaces of any fissures that may be present. If the crystallization is on the inside of fissures, the build‐up of synthetic material will cause the fissures to gradually close or “partially heal” (Figure 2). These partially healed fissures have the appearance of intricate networks of fine tubules contained in undulating planes within the stone. The material that can be observed within these planes is mostly composed of a glass; the transparent spaces within the planes are where the fissures have been partially healed with synthetic corundum.

 

[Arkteia]

RedSpinel,
I do not know you at all. I would welcome any newbie, and your posts are intriguing. On the one hand, you are asking many questions about the stones, cutting, etc, exactly what a newbie would ask. When I joined PS, one of my threads was about precision vs native cuts. Good that you asked these questions and wanted to clarify matters for yourself. Hopefully, you learned something.
On the other hand, you are discussing a jeweler's response to non-disclosure... it seems that you have dealt with many jewelers! Plenty of jewelers, and just a few stones!
Personally I would assume that any person who is giving his stone to be set by a jeweler, does not want it to be damaged! He or she would point out a crack in an emerald, or a spinel, or discuss their ruby. If you have a certificate from the GRS, would you not want to show it to a jeweler? Upgradable is known to use great jewelers for her stones, I always admire her for it. I assume she knows how to deal with her jewelers.
I wish you good luck on this forum. And just personally, I hope that you will not recut your spessartite. They are becoming rarer and more expensive.
Among other things, a ruby with strong UV fluorescence has such a glow under strong sunlight... Once I posted pictures of my ruby in sunlight. It is amazing, and I think Upgradable's ruby which has such a strong fluorescence would be stunning under normal daytime bright light.

 

[Arkteia]

Since my tastes are slightly off center, and my pieces are usually a bit quirky, I think that having the entire thing fluoresce (red and blue) allow the classic design to satisfy my warped sense of style.

WHERE DID THAT COME FROM? YOU ARE KNOWN TO USE FANTASTIC JEWELERS!

 

[jeffdvs101]

Not sure where all this going, guess some will not be happy until the stone is thrown in the dustbin! ,I'll stick with Dr. A Peretti of the GRS assessment of the stone ie. "minor residues in fissures only" nothing in cavities, and Vivid "pigeon blood" red , which is not a color grading that is given out lightly!

@ Uppy , I am sorry it came to this , please email me!

 

[chrono]

Jeff,
I am not saying this is a bad stone or anything like that. I am only doing my best to explain what flux healing means and how it is done. When I posted the 2010 article, my intent was not in reference to Uppy's ruby at all but just to discuss ruby treatment. There are stones out there for everyone that fits their budget and treatment sensibilities.

Uppy,
I am very sorry it came down to this. This probably ruined the enjoyment of your new stone. I meant what I wrote earlier that I am very happy for you and want to see you wear the ruby with pride.

 

[LD]

Jeff - I wouldn't worry. Uppy sounds ecstatic with her Ruby and it's very lovely. She's lucky to have it and I'm pretty sure she knows it!

 

[K9]

Chrono, I hope you know by now that I appreciate ALL the input I get here. I'm by no means under the illusion I have the "perfect" stone. I know it has been heated. I know, at some point it has been in the presence of additional treatments. But, beyond all, I have a document from a respected gemstone lab that tells me that what I have is a minimally altered stone from a desirable locale. HOwever, the MOST important thing for me is that I have a stone that I find amazingly beautiful and will be proud to own and wear for a very long time. I'm by no means a stone snob. I like what I like because it pleases my eye. It's only a bonus when other factors fall in line.

Thanks again for the added info. I respect Richard's knowledge base, and am glad to know that there is a significant attempt to standardize and make transparent the nature of ruby treatments.

And that right there is ALL THAT MATTERS. Congratulations on stumbling upon such a lovely, wonderful ruby Uppy. It is absolutely gorgeous and I can't wait to see the finished masterpiece.

 

[chrono]

If Red Spinel would like to discuss ruby treatments, how about starting a new thread?

 

[jeffdvs101]

Chrono, there is a difference between giving advise and scaring people to death! , this was at one time a very controversial issue, but IMO it is no longer the case, because the GRS(and other reputable labs) has introduced a clear grading scale, what I am trying to say is that the higher grades are normally quite gemmy, while the lower grades are usually opaque and very commercial in quality, this is because of the amount cavities and fissures, hence more filling,....and to suggest that it is down to the skill level of the cooker is very misleading! Yes some do it better than others for sure, but at the end of the day, they can't turn gravel into a gemstone. I like a good debate, but let's try and be a little more sensitive toward other people, not everyone has your knowledge.This would have been better in a new thread me thinks

cheers

Jeff.

 

[Upgradable]

DING DING

This is the end of the round. Everyone back to neutral corners.

Don't anyone worry about what I'm going to enjoy or not. I am very comfortable and confident with Jeff's descriptions and his representations. And I respect Chrono for all of her knowledge and experience she's shared. I'm chalking this one up to the nature of the written forum, confusing and convoluting things in a way they wouldn't be face to face.

I'm sorry, but no matter what you say, I'm NOT going to change my respect and admiration for each of you.

And all of you JUST KEEP YOUR DIRTY HANDS OFF MY RUBY!!!

 

[minousbijoux]

First off, Uppy - so sorry, as I am the one who originally asked the question. I know you are knowledgeable enough to know what you are purchasing; it was my idle curiosity as to what minor residue meant that caused me to ask. Sorry, sweetie, never meant to have this get so...tense.

Chrono: thank you for posting the explanations and your source information. Your information, as usual, is valuable to this forum.

Jeff: As a Trade Member and the vendor in this particular instance, you are, unfortunately, treading on thin ice here. Please understand that you are clearly highly regarded here, and, since you too are quite new to the forum, you should be aware that such discussions are not uncommon.

 

[minousbijoux]

Bottom line: Uppy, you should not have to suffer one minute longer knowing your so-called "ruby" is just borax dyed red, so I'll do the noble thing and take it off your hands... I know and yes, I'm really that selfless...

 

[RedSpinel]

Not to get too far off topic here, but with cheaper rubies that are filled and treated, what are the most common substances found these days? I've read that this kind of thing changes from time to time, so I figured someone here would have the more up-to-date knowledge. How do they get the "filler" deep into the small cracks and fissures of a ruby in the first place?

The ruby is heated to temperatures that may reach as high as 1850°C in the presence of a molten flux. At these temperatures the surfaces of the ruby (alumina) in contact with the flux will slowly dissolve into the flux. During the gradual cool down period the alumina comes out of the flux and crystallizes on the nearest available surfaces. These surfaces may be those of the crucible in which the process is taking place or on the rubies being treated. If crystallization takes place on the rubies, this may be on the outer surfaces (facets) of the stones or on the inner surfaces of any fissures that may be present. If the crystallization is on the inside of fissures, the build‐up of synthetic material will cause the fissures to gradually close or “partially heal” (Figure 2). These partially healed fissures have the appearance of intricate networks of fine tubules contained in undulating planes within the stone. The material that can be observed within these planes is mostly composed of a glass; the transparent spaces within the planes are where the fissures have been partially healed with synthetic corundum.

How often do you guys and gals run into "nice" rubies like this?

To chrono, thanks, So in other words, they arent just filling the stones with glass, its basically welding the cracks closed....Therefore probably strengthening the stone to some degree.

To Arkteia: I've persoanlly had only 5 stones mounted out of the hundred or so that I own, but I have friends and clients that buy LOTS of jewelry and get lots of stones mounted or re-mounted into a new setting.

Even though I personally have only had 5 stones professionally mounted, I've had major problems 60% of those times, so I've become "aware" of the possibilities through my own "issues" with jewelers, and through the issues of friends/clients. Thats how I got my info and why I made those suggestions. But to each his/her own and up to each person to determine how they want to deal with jewelers, and people here have more experience than I do. Plus, I'd imagine that people here couldnt have possibly been as unlucky as I've been when it comes to dealing with our local jewelers! I seem to be cursed when it comes to getting stones set or mounted.... I've been pretty lucky buying loose stones though.

 

[chrono]

To Uppy,
YES MAAM!

To Red Spinel,
Please start a new thread with your questions. We have threadjacked this one enough. Plus the big boss said so. I think Arkteia started one titled Fluorescence in Ruby or something similar.

 

[autumngems]

Does Jeff have a website?

 

[ChrisA222]

Hi, I deal with Jeff often and have for a while...great guy to deal with and great gems--cutting too!

He has a store on eBay, its called Jeffdvs101.

 

[pregcurious]

Beautiful ruby! I know the feeling of looking for a stone, then seeing it pop up. Congrats Uppy! I can't wait to see hand shots of your ring.

 

[wordie89]

Uppy,

Beautiful ruby and can't wait to see it set. Wow. What a fascinating thread. Lots of good information and discussion. Thanks to everyone.

I understand what redspinel went through with jewelers. I have only had one stone set so far: red oval spinel in platinum band with channel set diamonds. Nice thick band.
1st visit: I waited for spinel to be set. The prongs were uneven. I was so thrilled with the ring I didn't notice but my sister and oao did when they saw it. So back it went to the jeweler. He admitted he wouldn't normally have let it out of the house but my excitement won over (perhaps it oughtn't have).
2nd visit: stone was chipped on surface after they had it a week to set! Again, noticed when I returned home. Jeweler fixed it.
3rd visit: the band was cracked after wearing it for about a month. I work in office but occasionally hear the band hit the desk. I was surprised this thick band had cracked. They fixed it.
4th visit: after about 8 months the stone was loose. They fixed it. It sits high on my finger sooooo, I figure that's a drawback to that type of setting.
They've fixed it all but I'm not sure I should have this much trouble setting a stone. Any thoughts? what, am I crazy? I know you ALL have thoughts!!!
apologies if this is the wrong forum. I am following up on all the discussion and didn't think it fit in the spin off.

 

[Upgradable]

Wordie, I'm so sorry about all of the issues you've had with your ring. I agree that it sounds unusual to have this many problems. Maybe it would be happier in another type of mounting?