Sad about my E-ring! Oval bow tie effect!!

[pregcurious]

Lily, I feel badly for you. I did a ring reset in 2010 without CADs through WhiteFlash. It was not a good experience. The story is here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thanks-to-quest-jewelers-for-my-reset.163316/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thanks-to-quest-jewelers-for-my-reset.163316/[/URL]

Since you are educated about jewelry and very particular (as most PSers are), it may be difficult to find something you perceive as perfect.

What I learned is, be proactive. Please return the stone, and go elsewhere for one if you must. (Disclaimer: I am currently doing a project with ERD and am concerned about your experience.)

Preg

 

[soxfan]

I would return the oval. Are you open to colored stones at all? Because I think a blue Sapphire would be absolutely KILLER in that setting.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Bow ties show up more easily in that orientation than in the NW orientation you see when worn.

How can this be?
I turned my head 90 degrees to look at her two pics and the bowtie didn't vanish.

Bowtie comes from the cut itself, not how you hold the stone.

Wrong Kenny my friend.
The bow tie comes from your head and body, so it can look worse depending on orientation.

The photo captures one particular lighting moment, and shows the bowtie. Turning it won't help But turning the actual ring in real life ... that is a whole different matter!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi Dreamer,
rocking the ring toward you and away from you (in NW) usually just shifts the bowtie up and down either side.
It is a 'nailhead' effect and the rays from your head, to the diamond go back to your head over quite a wide range of motions.

 

[Lilly2013]

1.36; 56% table, 62.2% depth, no fl, in some light it is sparkly, but u can still
see the bow tie. I am a first time diamond buyer, zero experience, i tried to find a better quality stone, but it
Is much harder than i thought. Here are more pics. To be fair, craftsman likes good to naked eyes in real life.


What are the dimensions of the stone LxW?[/quote]

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

dimensions in mmm's.
like 10mm x 7mm

 

[Lilly2013]

Thanks for the suggestion. To be fair, the setting in real
life does look delicate and good. It is my first and only ring, i want it to be diamond, i really don't want a colored stone yet. But thanks a lot for helping me with alternatives.

I would return the oval. Are you open to colored stones at all? Because I think a blue Sapphire would be absolutely KILLER in that setting.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hi, there, i really appreciate yr help but no need to get intense, i
am already pretty sad. U offered sth good advice, just not all feasible
to me. First, mark and i apparently do not agree on how bad the bow tie is yet. Secondly, if he agrees to fully refund me
for the center stone, i cannot return the setting, meaning i have to find a oval similar in size. I am in communication with
Mark, i certainly hope there is a solution. I am not rich in any way, i don't want to sell it at a deep
discount and lose money that i worked for for nothing.

I'm sorry if people are telling you to put on your big-girl panties and deal with things to find a solution! Perhaps you simply wanted some commiseration and sympathy? What were you hoping to get from this thread?

Here is my 2c, which is in line with the big-girl panties advice already offered:

Did you ask for a return and refund? If you can, then do it. Put a colored gem in the setting, or sell just the setting. Maybe ovals are not for you. Lesson learned. It does not have to be a complete loss. Its only a complete loss if you give up.

Another solution: Return the diamond and exchange for a modern round. Sell the mount, for a loss, yes. Then use the proceeds from the sale of the mount to buy a simple solitaire for your lovely stone.

I am not being intense, not sure where that came from? I was asking legitimate questions about what you hoped to achieve with this thread -- what outcome do you desire from all of this? We can only offer you the right support if we know what you want. Most people here are offering instrumental support by suggesting solutions. This seems to upset you. Iwas asking if you are solely looking for emotional support instead, like sympathy. If the latter, tell us so we can stop bugging you with solutions to a problem you may or may not want advice about.

Second, do you and mark need to agree about the size of the bowtie? Why is that relevant? The return policy does not have conditions. His opinion about the bowtie does not matter for that.

Third, selling the mount at a loss sucks. But it is far worse IMO to have it locked in a safe and unused and unworn. Then the whole amount you spent is lost. Contrary to what you may think, I am not rich either and cannot afford to lose money on bling. So my suggestions are designed to yield you a ring you like and will wear without additional cost. If you prefer to lock this ring away and always regret... that is your choice.

 

[Lilly2013]

Measurements:
7.94 *5.85 * 3.64

Do the measurements affect the bow tie? Does every oval
have bow tie or it is my bad luck to get one with large bow tie? I watched the video on yutube, it seems all three ovals in that comparison video have bow ties, some are similar to mine, some are even larger. Garry would u please offer any expertise
? Very much appreciated!

Plus, when i change angles and in different lighting, the bow tie on my stone changes too, sometime bigger, sometime seems
smaller, and in direct strong sunlight, it is the most less visible, also when face down, it looks smaller, it looks the worst in vertical position or in a slightly forward position like u r reading a book. Does it affect the value and performance a lot?

dimensions in mmm's.
like 10mm x 7mm

 

[Lilly2013]

Regardless of the outcome for my ring, i still want to be fair to ERD, they answer my emails
and phones promptly, the craftsman of the setting look good at least to me in real life. They fixed the prong in one day. Hope you have a good experience!

Lily, I feel badly for you. I did a ring reset in 2010 without CADs through WhiteFlash. It was not a good experience. The story is here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thanks-to-quest-jewelers-for-my-reset.163316/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thanks-to-quest-jewelers-for-my-reset.163316/[/URL]

Since you are educated about jewelry and very particular (as most PSers are), it may be difficult to find something you perceive as perfect.

What I learned is, be proactive. Please return the stone, and go elsewhere for one if you must. (Disclaimer: I am currently doing a project with ERD and am concerned about your experience.)

Preg

 

[Mico]

Measurements:
7.94 *5.85 * 3.64

Do the measurements affect the bow tie? Does every oval
have bow tie or it is my bad luck to get one with large bow tie? I watched the video on yutube, it seems all three ovals in that comparison video have bow ties, some are similar to mine, some are even larger. Garry would u please offer any expertise
? Very much appreciated!

Plus, when i change angles and in different lighting, the bow tie on my stone changes too, sometime bigger, sometime seems
smaller, and in direct strong sunlight, it is the most less visible, also when face down, it looks smaller, it looks the worst in vertical position or in a slightly forward position like u r reading a book. Does it affect the value and performance a lot?

dimensions in mmm's.
like 10mm x 7mm

I think he was asking this to help suggest other stones that would fit the setting.

Will you be returning the diamond?

 

[oohsparkly]

Hi Lilly,

The bow tie is created by the effect of all the little facet cuts in combination I think, rather than the length and width of the stone. Although the longer and skinnier the oval the more likely it is to have a bow tie. I bought an oval a while ago and had to look into it a lot. I was also concerned about the bow tie effect. I will just throw in some thoughts that may help you with this stone or with looking for another one.

My research, both on paper and in real life led me to the conclusion that the very best oval modern cut would have at least a bow tie 'shape' across the middle of the stone. Mine does, but it is never a pronounced black with clear lines like I saw in many ovals, and in many lights this bow tie shape is the most lit up part of the stone and I think it is very pretty. In some lights it does go a soft greyish color across the middle. If it was a pronounced black bow tie I would reject the stone.

I saw three ovals with no bow tie at all, one of them was in my price range and I was able to physically compare it and another one with the one I eventually bought. Mine was the sparkliest of the lot and looked the best in a range of lights. There was a lesser sparkle in all 3 completely bow tie-less stones.

Like you, this was a very big, once only purchase and meant a huge deal to me. I would not have bought without seeing first, but I guess I might have been swayed by a trusted jeweller like you were.

I just wonder if what you have is pretty good as far as ovals go, as Mark said.

Remember that ideal cut rounds have black arrows in them, and other cuts can have areas of darkness, especially in some lights.

From the photos I think your ring is rather lovely and looks beautiful on your hand.

But if you decide you cannot be happy with that stone you are fortunate that in that size range (about a carat??) there are a lot of ovals and you should be able to fine one you are happy with using ERD's return policy. The dimensions of your stone strike me as fairly standard as well.

Why change the setting - it is gorgeous!!

Best of luck with your decision.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Measurements:
7.94 *5.85 * 3.64

Do the measurements affect the bow tie? Does every oval
have bow tie or it is my bad luck to get one with large bow tie? I watched the video on yutube, it seems all three ovals in that comparison video have bow ties, some are similar to mine, some are even larger. Garry would u please offer any expertise
? Very much appreciated!

Plus, when i change angles and in different lighting, the bow tie on my stone changes too, sometime bigger, sometime seems
smaller, and in direct strong sunlight, it is the most less visible, also when face down, it looks smaller, it looks the worst in vertical position or in a slightly forward position like u r reading a book. Does it affect the value and performance a lot?

dimensions in mmm's.
like 10mm x 7mm

In an earlier post i showed you the difference between 2 facet types.
This makes the world of difference, but most stones on the market are cut the way your is.
Edit_ Within 0.1mm either way from the dimensions you listed:
However there are 185 ovals in VVS to SI1 and D-G color listed on Rapnet, and I am sure Mark will have access to the 97 that are listed as being in USA, and he can walk to the 49 in NYC.
I would guess 10% of those would be cut the way I prefer.
And failing that, if you are patient, I am sure he will find you "the one". But keep your color, Clarity and fluoro ranges broad to make life easier.

 

[Lilly2013]

Thank you very much for the long post. I am not sure if the bow tie on my ring is greyish shape, it can look dark in some like but not black dark like ink black, I am now confused by what is "dark" as far as diamond is concerned. i really appreciate writing the long post to help me. the setting is not returnable, and the craftsman is good to my naked eyes, i am just bothered by the bow tie, all the research i did online and here conclude that bow tie is bad and affect the stone negatively. And mine has a big bow tie as shown in the pics. I change light, angles, it is always there. i don't know what solution ERD can offer, for now it sounds like there is nothing they can do as Mark thinks this is a "beautiful" stone. the only comfort comes from my poor hubby, he is literally poor, but nice person, he just told me he will try to save more money and hope to buy me another ring in five years.

Hi Lilly,

The bow tie is created by the effect of all the little facet cuts in combination I think, rather than the length and width of the stone. Although the longer and skinnier the oval the more likely it is to have a bow tie. I bought an oval a while ago and had to look into it a lot. I was also concerned about the bow tie effect. I will just throw in some thoughts that may help you with this stone or with looking for another one.

My research, both on paper and in real life led me to the conclusion that the very best oval modern cut would have at least a bow tie 'shape' across the middle of the stone. Mine does, but it is never a pronounced black with clear lines like I saw in many ovals, and in many lights this bow tie shape is the most lit up part of the stone and I think it is very pretty. In some lights it does go a soft greyish color across the middle. If it was a pronounced black bow tie I would reject the stone.

I saw three ovals with no bow tie at all, one of them was in my price range and I was able to physically compare it and another one with the one I eventually bought. Mine was the sparkliest of the lot and looked the best in a range of lights. There was a lesser sparkle in all 3 completely bow tie-less stones.

Like you, this was a very big, once only purchase and meant a huge deal to me. I would not have bought without seeing first, but I guess I might have been swayed by a trusted jeweller like you were.

I just wonder if what you have is pretty good as far as ovals go, as Mark said.

Remember that ideal cut rounds have black arrows in them, and other cuts can have areas of darkness, especially in some lights.

From the photos I think your ring is rather lovely and looks beautiful on your hand.

But if you decide you cannot be happy with that stone you are fortunate that in that size range (about a carat??) there are a lot of ovals and you should be able to fine one you are happy with using ERD's return policy. The dimensions of your stone strike me as fairly standard as well.

Why change the setting - it is gorgeous!!

Best of luck with your decision.

 

[Lilly2013]

Garry, thanks again, I forward that pic to Mark, I guess as an expert, he can tell the difference and knows what you mean by a differently cut facet. It was after business hours in NY, I will see what Mark says tomorrow. one more question, can a stone with bow tie still be brilliant and a ideal cut stone or a bow tie like in my stone already means it is a low quality stone? thank u very much for answering my questions and help me looking for solutions! many thx!


In an earlier post i showed you the difference between 2 facet types.
This makes the world of difference, but most stones on the market are cut the way your is.
Edit_ Within 0.1mm either way from the dimensions you listed:
However there are 185 ovals in VVS to SI1 and D-G color listed on Rapnet, and I am sure Mark will have access to the 97 that are listed as being in USA, and he can walk to the 49 in NYC.
I would guess 10% of those would be cut the way I prefer.
And failing that, if you are patient, I am sure he will find you "the one". But keep your color, Clarity and fluoro ranges broad to make life easier.[/quote]

 

[oohsparkly]

Can you get out to some city jewellers and look at a bunch of ovals? This would give you a sense of what is good, bad and in between in the world of ovals, and help you judge yours effectively - removing any possible psychological barriers you may have built up.

If you find your oval unacceptable after doing this I would urge you to return it while you still can. Even if Mark thinks it is beautiful, you can explain it is not what you are looking for and ask for his help to find something you personally like.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry, thanks again, I forward that pic to Mark, I guess as an expert, he can tell the difference and knows what you mean by a differently cut facet. It was after business hours in NY, I will see what Mark says tomorrow. one more question, can a stone with bow tie still be brilliant and a ideal cut stone or a bow tie like in my stone already means it is a low quality stone? thank u very much for answering my questions and help me looking for solutions! many thx!

[/quote]

the darkness you are seeing is the contrast between bright areas behind you and the dark zone is where the diamond is redirecting your line of sight back to your head and body, blocking out the light.
in a round brilliant cut this darkness shows up as an 8 ray star all around the stone and makes a nice contrast pattern. In an oval you only see it in 2 spots and it looks bad. But the rest of the stone probably works really well. Some people like that look, but any regular oval with that facet type that does not have a bow tie usually is not as bright in the ends - they are usually way to shallow at each end and when they are dirty they look crap.
Mark is a great guy. Have not seen him for a few years, but last time I was in NYC he took my wife and I to a great jazz club and we had a wonderful night. As everyone here has said, its a no brainer that he will want to help you

So sleep soundly

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

BTW if you are a blonde scandinavian then there is very litle bow tie, and if you have big black coffuired hair and dark skin, you have more bowtie.
If you can focus from less than 6 inches (15cm) then the bow tie gets huge.

punch a hole in a sheet of copy paper and peak thru - walla! No more bow tie!

 

[Hera]

It isn't the last oval on Earth!

1. Return diamond and give ERD an amount of time to find something YOU might like.
2. If he can't then contact other vendors to see if they can find you something.
3. If they can't, then maybe consider waiting until you can find what you're looking for.

 

[LLJsmom]

GIRL, you have to rethink your definition of "wasting money". As I've learned as I've grown older, the only money wasted is in things that you buy but don't like and just sit there. This is what all the other PSers are trying to tell you. If you settle for a ring you don't like, it will just sit in the box. And that is 100% wasted. If you sell or return the stone, then you get some money back. If that is not enough for you to buy the stone and setting you like, live without one for now. Wait until you've saved up enough money to buy something you like. Then, THAT is money NOT wasted. Buying anything you don't love is. It's not about the absolute dollars spent. You spend money to buy something to get enjoyment from it. If you don't get enjoyment out of it, it is wasted money, be it .02 or $2000.

Good luck!!

 

[Lilly2013]

I have 3 days left to their 30 day fully refundable return period, i will try to get some comparison. As matter of fact, I became really concerned when i saw another bride's ring lately, hers has no bow tie, it looks much clear than mine, although it is less sparkly, but I thought that was because hers is lower color and clarity than mine, although bigger. I watched a yutube video that compares three ovals, i tried to move my ring like they did in the video, however, mine is set with the ring and the melees are e color and bright, so it is hard to tell whether the brilliant is from the center stone or the melees.

thank you so much for sharing your experience and yr advice, i will try to find some local stores to compare tomorrow. you chose a oval with bow tie, because it is more brilliant than the ones without a bow tie, right?

Can you get out to some city jewellers and look at a bunch of ovals? This would give you a sense of what is good, bad and in between in the world of ovals, and help you judge yours effectively - removing any possible psychological barriers you may have built up.

If you find your oval unacceptable after doing this I would urge you to return it while you still can. Even if Mark thinks it is beautiful, you can explain it is not what you are looking for and ask for his help to find something you personally like.

 

[oohsparkly]

I have 3 days left to their 30 day fully refundable return period, i will try to get some comparison. As matter of fact, I became really concerned when i saw another bride's ring lately, hers has no bow tie, it looks much clear than mine, although it is less sparkly, but I thought that was because hers is lower color and clarity than mine, although bigger. I watched a yutube video that compares three ovals, i tried to move my ring like they did in the video, however, mine is set with the ring and the melees are e color and bright, so it is hard to tell whether the brilliant is from the center stone or the melees.

thank you so much for sharing your experience and yr advice, i will try to find some local stores to compare tomorrow. you chose a oval with bow tie, because it is more brilliant than the ones without a bow tie, right?

Can you get out to some city jewellers and look at a bunch of ovals? This would give you a sense of what is good, bad and in between in the world of ovals, and help you judge yours effectively - removing any possible psychological barriers you may have built up.

If you find your oval unacceptable after doing this I would urge you to return it while you still can. Even if Mark thinks it is beautiful, you can explain it is not what you are looking for and ask for his help to find something you personally like.

If you have only 3 days left get your skates on!! Interesting that the other ring you saw had no bow tie but was less sparkly - that adds up with my experience and research and what Garry seems to be saying. However that does not justify a strong, big or dark bow tie. I am concerned about yours because you say it is there in all lights. The bow tie shape is there in all lights in my diamond too but in most inside lights it is a very bright part of the diamond.

if the other diamond is clearer than yours that will have nothing to do with the color, and unless her clarity is pretty low, may not have anything to do with that either. It may come down to what is called transparency, which is sometimes confused with fluorescence. You can have a stone with perfect transparency but also strong fluorescence. GIA does not grade transparency so you are left to yourself to figure that out. My diamond was graded by DCLA - the biggest Australian diamond grader and they do grade for transparency so you can see what you have in that area. In my opinion transparency matters a huge amount and a high clarity diamond with low transparency can look a bit cloudy or dull. If your diamond has bad transparency that will add to the black marks against it.

Also the color and clarity of a diamond doesn't have anything to do with the sparkle factor - that is down to cut.

To answer your question, I did consciously choose a diamond with a bow tie shape in the middle, which does darken a bit especially in sunlight, but in most indoor lights and lower outdoor light is not dark except for some tiny bits of contrast - it is often the most lit up part of an overall very sparkly stone. Sparkle was massively important to me (see my username!!) and I found that a very faint bow tie was connected to the best sparkle I could find.

That does not mean any and all bow ties are good. They are not. It has to be a faint bow tie, bright in most lights, as part of an overall sparkly stone.

I did not completely understand Garry's post though. He seemed to agree with my experience but also refer to another kind of cut that yielded a great stone and no bow tie at all - I'm afraid I don't know anything about that.

Although I think you are best to get out quicksmart and educate yourself on ovals - I also think it will be best to not miss that return window - you probably don't have enough time to come to terms with the stone you have even if that was possible.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I did not completely understand Garry's post though. He seemed to agree with my experience but also refer to another kind of cut that yielded a great stone and no bow tie at all - I'm afraid I don't know anything about that.

Go back to half way down the first page Sparkly - note the different pavilion structure on the right hand side - it removes the bow tie in stones with good overall proportions.
There other facet styles too, but most of those are for fancy colored diamonds and result in less brilliancy from pinfire like radiants and some cushions.

 

[Lilly2013]

to oohsparkly:

thx a million for eduating me on stone qualities. I do find one part true, which is when looking down at my stone in indoor light, the bow tie part somehow appears like a bright line across the middle of the stone, and it is also true in strong outdoor sunlight, when look at the stone in eye level or if you put the stone in a vertical position, the bow tie become every obvious, it is not just a line, but an area across the middle of the stone. besides the bow tie, the rest of the stone does show some brilliant as seen in the third pic i posted above.I never has the chance to compare stones side by side, maybe that will really help me to make the right judgement. thx again. very much appreciate yr help ans kindness!

 

[Lilly2013]

To oohsparkly, here is a pic face down looking at the stone in room light, does it looks like what u described?

 

[oohsparkly]

Yes this picture does look like what I see inside with my diamond, with a bright middle and slight dark contrast just above it. Actually in this picture your diamond looks lovely.

Have a look at pictures of other ovals on pricescope. I have seen many that people were delighted with their oval diamond that showed more bow tie effect than is visible in this particular photo! but it is only one photo and you have to be happy with it overall considering all lights and angles.

 

[oohsparkly]

I did not completely understand Garry's post though. He seemed to agree with my experience but also refer to another kind of cut that yielded a great stone and no bow tie at all - I'm afraid I don't know anything about that.

Go back to half way down the first page Sparkly - note the different pavilion structure on the right hand side - it removes the bow tie in stones with good overall proportions.
There other facet styles too, but most of those are for fancy colored diamonds and result in less brilliancy from pinfire like radiants and some cushions.

Thanks Garry, I do see what you mean now. I just looked up my certificate, it is more like the left hand one but a 6 main.

 

[soxfan]

i don't know what solution ERD can offer, for now it sounds like there is nothing they can do as Mark thinks this is a "beautiful" stone. the only comfort comes from my poor hubby, he is literally poor, but nice person, he just told me he will try to save more money and hope to buy me another ring in five years.

[/quote]

????????????????????????? ERD TOLD YOU you could return it. Why do you keep saying this? Return it and find another oval.

 

[Acinom]

I would contact ERD again and tell them you will send it back immediately. Please avoid that you cannot send it back. You can then pick another stone and have it set in a simple but elegant solitaire. At a later point in time you could upgrade the setting. You will lose a bit on the current setting, but the loss will be bigger if you end up with a stone you do not like!

 

[stargurl78]

Stop being so melodramatic. You said you can exchange the center diamond, right? So do it. Have Mark find you another one. Whining about it here and putting it away forever wont help you.

I'm sorry but I have to agree. There is a simple solution - you don't like the stone so return it, you are still within the return policy. If you can not get an acceptable replacement for the stone from ERD, then look elsewhere. I know that good ovals are harder to find than rounds, but if you post the dimensions in RT, I'm sure plenty of posters will be glad to help you find what you are looking for.