Sapphire connoisseurs, please help!

[cm366]

I'm looking for a sapphire to make a pendant for my fiancee, it'll be a wedding gift. I'm thinking a diamond ~.5 carat with a single sapphire set below, like an abbreviated version of a 3-stone drop. I'm torn, however, between two lovely sapphires, one very much lighter (or so it seems). Any tips on determining color from a picture, or flaws/windows that I'm not seeing? Lighter stone is about 2.1 carats, the darker's 2.44, but the price is so good on both that I'm a little suspicious...

Thanks so much!

cm366

 

[Aoife]

Assuming the photos are semi-accurate, the top stone is, in my opinion, too grey. The bottom stone, although better color, appears to have a window. If you are seriously interested in these stones I'd ask for more photos so you can get a better read on color and the window situation.

 

[Arkteia]

Can the vendors provide certificates?

 

[gongli]

if the price is very good sometimes thats an indication the stone may be more treated than usual. most sapphires are heated and that is considered stable, but there's other treatments that may not be, and which lower the price.

if they're certed untreated then they might fairly priced at $750-1500+, if they're be-diffused or fracture filled they might be expensive at $300. the darker one seems to have a different color in the center, which i don't think is good. you could check prices and quality against multicolour.com, or simplysapphires.com if you want cert untreated, or post more info here.

-Neal

 

[Pandora II]

Honestly, those photos are not the best when it comes to judging anything.

The top one it's very hard to see the true colour as there is so much light reflecting straight back from the facets.

The second one, I'd also want more photos. The area in the centre looks darker because it is held between two fingers and so less light is entering that part and it looks darker.

I don't see anything that would make me reject either yet.

Are they eBay stones or from an online site? What other info is there on them? How good is a good price?

 

[cm366]

Thanks gang! I asked the owner for more pictures and got these, but the darker stone's are still hand shots and the lighting seems to be the same as in the previous... Hope they help!

The darker stone is allegedly completely untreated, the lighter is supposed to be low heat only, and they're both around $1,000 US. The seller doesn't provide certs but would be willing to send them via the Asian Institute for Gemological Sciences (reliable?) for a report at roughly $30 my cost, with promises of a refund in full if they're misrepresented but a 15% restocking fee if I return for any other reason.

Thanks again!

cm366

 

[cm366]

The owner also offered this stone if I liked the color on the oval but was concerned about it... I like the shape and color but am concerned it might go too dark in a setting, and can't really see the center of the stone straight-on. It's heated and would cost about $150 more than either of the others...

 

[gongli]

ive seen more expensive gems bought on aigs cert... if youre buying untreated, then i think the cert has to be part of the deal. the lighter untreated one looks a little bit montana to me.

id suggest deciding whether you need it to be untreated or not first. if heat is ok, then you get a bigger range of sapphires to pick from. if untreated is a must, then its somewhat unfair comparing untreated with heated stones. also if untreated is a must, then a lab cert is also something id suggest making a condition of transaction.

another thing to think about is where the gem prices come from. about halfway down the page is the GIA color description and grading system photos of gem models:

http://www.bwsmigel.info/Lesson4/DE.Optical.Properties.html

hue tone and saturation can affect the price of the sapphire alot. the first 2 stones you're considering have different colors and different prices, and you're throwing heat/no heat into the mix also.

-neal

 

[Justin_Cutter]

cm366: Welcome to the forum!!!

I am 99% sure I know who you are considering buying these from. If it is indeed who I think it is let me calm any worries you may have about the price. The seller is legit! I can say this because I recently purchase a sapphire from him for my fiance's engagement ring. Here is the thread for it if you would like to look it over. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/5-58-ct-blue-sapphire-gemsthailand.163440/

Don't be afraid to ask him to send you some pictures of the stone in hand with indoor and outdoor light. I ask for this several times with different stones that I was looking at and he was happy to provide them. May take a couple days but I always got them.

Here is my thoughts

As gongli said you really need to decide if you are ok with heat treatment in sapphires. This will definitely affect how many are available and the pricing of the stones. It took me about 6 months to find the right unheated stone for my fiance's ring. You will definitely need to have a report ran on the stone to confirm that it is unheated. Never take a sellers word on this! Sometimes sellers don't even know the stones have been heated.

I recommend http://www.aglgemlab.com/ they are the best in the business for colored stones. A brief report is about $55 last time I checked. When I bought my stone I told him that I wanted to have it certified by AGL and if it was actually heated then I would want a full refund. He agreed to this arrangement!

The 1st oval is to light for my taste but the clarity looks amazing! I do fear that the stone will be windowed tho.

The 2nd oval has the color and I am confident it would lighten up a little once set. Unless you are planning on doing a bezel setting. There is a noticeable inclusion however and that would probably be enough to push me away from buying it. However if I had to pick one I would definitely go with the 2nd oval with the better color!

As for the Pear I really like the color! I can see some silk in it and that is probably why you don't feel you can see the bottom of the stone like you can on the other stones. I personally don't mind silk sometimes. It really depends on how the silk effects the stones ability to gather light. Sometimes silk can make a stone have a "glow" to it.

Hope this helps some! Keep us posted.
~Justin

 

[minousbijoux]

I would say keep looking. I will admit I am biased, as I don't care for the Thai sapphires I have seen because they seem to have a slight greenish tint to them that I don't care for. I would agree that the first one you showed is too grey (in other words, not saturated enough) and the other one, besides looking like a Thai sapphire to me, looks like the cutting has a negative impact on the center of the stone, where there is a fair amount of extinction. I think you can do better for your money. As an example of what's available, here is one that Master Cut gems has on their website. I realize its too small for your needs, but I think Dana is a bit of a packrat (Dana, I mean it in the best way possible hee hee) and seems to have pretty blues frequently.

http://www.mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=view&cat=291 [second row down]

All that said, from a distance, on a pendant with a beautiful diamond, even ones of lesser quality can look good. So this is just my way of caveating that I may be being hyper picky and that you need to go with your gut as well as our advice...

Good luck!

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh, and I see what looks like color zoning in the the pear, which means the sapphire IRL may have uneven color in various spots. That might bother me also, though from a distance, it might not bother you...

 

[cm366]

Wow, thanks so much for all the help! Gongli, that's a really good point about the differences between the two originals. After some thinking and a little bit of research, I've decided I'm okay with heated (seems stable and widely accepted, a manipulation of the natural stone that's comparable to cutting or polishing it) but not beryllium or other coatings. Thanks for the link!

Justin, good eye! It is indeed the same seller and your stone (not to mention your fiancee!) is downright gorgeous... congratulations, and thanks for the points about the inclusion on the 2nd oval. I'm going to message the seller about AGL and assuming he's okay with it go for the pear... I'll keep you posted!

cm366

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Thank you very much! No problem, glad I could help.

Since you don't care if the stone is heated the AGL certification isn't as necessary unless you simply want to be sure that it is a sapphire and to know exactly what treatment has been done. I totally understand wanting to know that! And for $55 its a pretty small price to pay for peace of mind.

I am excited for you.
~Justin

 

[SB621]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of either of them. I think the sapphres from that seller typically have zoning and are on the darker side. If you are going to make a pendant out of a sapphire I would probably go lighter as a bezel or similar style will naturally make it go darker. I like the one Minx pointed out.

What exactly is your budget? Is there a certain mm size you are looking for?

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of either of them. I think the sapphres from that seller typically have zoning and are on the darker side. If you are going to make a pendant out of a sapphire I would probably go lighter as a bezel or similar style will naturally make it go darker. I like the one Minx pointed out.

What exactly is your budget? Is there a certain mm size you are looking for?

I was going to leave this alone....but I have to say something.
Not trying to start a fight here at all but just want to bring something to your attention Sarahbear & minousbijoux.

The stone minousbijoux posted has even worse color zoning. Look at the depth of color in both ends of the oval, and then slowly move to the center you will see it gets so light in color that it windows completely through the stone.

Please lets make sure we are judging all these stones at a equal level for the sake of cm366. I simply think you both prefer that color which is fine. But in terms of windowing and color zoning the oval minousbijoux recommended is probably worse than the stones cm366 posted.

Also the stone minousbijoux posted is 1.13ct while the stones cm366 posted are in the 2.1ct-2.4ct range so lets keep that in mind. From what I see it looks like cm366's budget is $1000-$1500.

I will agree that based on the pictures that were posted the pear and the darker oval have color zoning. Only cm366 can decide if it is going to bother him.

Please if you are going to discourage a person from buying stones they have posted, and then recommend a different stone to them at least recommend a stone that doesn't show the same problems you had issue with in first place. The only thing that the stone minousbijoux posted has on the other stones is its cut, and possible better color in certain parts of the stone.

Please don't take offense I am just trying to be fair for cm366 sake. This has nothing to do with the fact that I bought from the same seller. I would have said this regardless of who was selling the stones.
~Justin

 

[minousbijoux]

Thanks for the clarification, though I wasn't suggesting that he consider that sapphire because, as I pointed out in my comments, it is too small for his needs. Instead, I was pointing out alternatives from well known vendors to give him an idea of price range and color. As I said, I personally don't care for sapphires with color modifiers like the ones above and was giving him a starting point for other options. If he is going for heated, he can do better for the price - but he should get an AGL or GIA cert, because many stones listed as heat only have also been diffused or otherwise treated, which, as you know, is not immediately evident.

But that's only my opinion, which is what I believe the OP was asking for...

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh, and SB, "minx" tee hee