Sapphire reality check: is my appraiser smoking crack?

[ohforcryingoutloud]

First, this forum has been extremely helpful in our search for a sapphire engagement ring, so thanks a million to all of you. I never had to post a thread because someone had always answered my questions, but this one's got me stumped.

Even after all the research and reading, and talking to recommended vendors and doing all of what y'all recommend... my darling impulse-purchased a sapphire and platinum ring on ebay for around $800. It was offered for sale from a traditional jewelry store located in NY and advertised as a 3.67ct genuine ceylon sapphire. So. I had my doubts. $800? It's probably made of lead and radioactive waste. Holy toledo.

It arrived and I instantly fell in love. It's so pretty! And he is soooo proud of himself. It's got a window, but it sparkles like mad and is the loveliest blue. I decide nothing matters but how happy it makes both of us and take it to my jeweler to be sized and an insurance appraisal, transcribed below:

One lady's fashion ring holding one oval shape genuine Sapphire, fairly good eye clean clarity, medium dark blue color with good saturation, measuring about 9.15 x 7.25 x 4.63 millimeters, weighing about 2.78 carats valued at $3,800.00 per carat or a valuation of $10,564.00. Also holding six round brilliant shape diamonds, SI1 clarity, near colorless (I), cut to fairly good proportions, total weight about .06 carats, valued at $1,600.00 per carat or a valuation of $96.00. The platinum mounting is valued at $2,840.00. The total valuation for this ring is $13,500.00.

Prices quoted are replacement values as of this date and do not include sales tax. All gems were graded while in their settings.

My Jeweler
Colored Stone Grading, GIA, A.J.P. and Appraiser

So... what the heck? How much do I insure this ring for? Clearly the answer is somewhere between $800 and $13,500. But. That's kind of a big difference. I tried two different ways to attach a photo but it's my first time.. hope one works.

 

[SB621]

I'm curious to know how your jeweler came up with that number. And for reference there is no way for the apprasier to know what sort of treatment is on the sapphire so I hate to say it but I think your entire appraisal is pretty worthless.

I personally wouldn't bother insuring it unless I have a lab report saying the sapphire wasn't heated or treated. Even heated you may or may not want to pay insurance for it. It is really up to you. If something happened to this ring could you replace it? I'm asking because the price of insuring this ring would probably in the long run not be worth it.

 

[colorluvr]

It would be worth it to me to send the ring to AGL in NYC and get a lab report. A gem brief for a ring including the shipping (I would ship it registered/insured for the amount you paid) will be less than $100. They can tell you if the stone has been treated beyond traditional heating. If it comes back as treated, then you can decide if you want to spend the extra $$$ to find out the extent of the treatment. Be sure to tell them that you want a call with the results before they do additional testing if it comes back treated.

If you are lucky and it comes back as traditional heat only, you got yourself a steal and then you can decide if you want to spend the extra $$$ for a full prestige report. If it comes back as treated and you choose not to spend any more money on additional testing, you have a pretty ring that is probably worth about what you paid and you can decide if you want to insure for $800.

As far as the appraisal, it is worthless without a lab report. No insurance company is going to give you replacement value on a ring just based on that appraisal.

NO appraiser can tell the extent of treatment on a sapphire without a lab report.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

I know jack-all about jewelry. Truly. So I haven't the foggiest clue how he came up with that number. I just know when I called my insurance co. to tell them about the ring they asked for an appraisal, so I got one. I think up to $2500 of jewelry coverage is included in my policy? It is something like that.

I don't really care about whether or not it's treated, on a personal level. He gave it to me, he's super-proud of himself and I like wearing it. I guess that kind of answers the question.. if it doesn't matter to me then I could replace it with heated/treated/whatever and not be losing anything.

It's just all so weird.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

colorluvr:

This part worries me: "No insurance company is going to give you replacement value on a ring just based on that appraisal."

Do you mean they won't give me $13,500? Because that's okay. That's a CrazyTown number.

Or do you mean they won't cover it at all?

If something happened to my ring I'd want the same ring back. So how do I figure out how much that would cost? Is that why I need the lab?

I'm sorry if I'm being a dunce. Thank you for helping me figure this out. I really appreciate it.

 

[SB621]

colorluvr:

This part worries me: "No insurance company is going to give you replacement value on a ring just based on that appraisal."

Do you mean they won't give me $13,500? Because that's okay. That's a CrazyTown number.

Or do you mean they won't cover it at all?

If something happened to my ring I'd want the same ring back. So how do I figure out how much that would cost? Is that why I need the lab?

I'm sorry if I'm being a dunce. Thank you for helping me figure this out. I really appreciate it.

It depends on your insurance company. Mine would not cover it at all based on the appraisal. Once again for $800 I would assume it is heated and treated so I wouldn't bother insuring it. It will cost you more to insure it then it is worth. Just my .02. However I do agree that for giggles I would send it out for a report that way you can find out exactly what the sapphire is or has in regards to treatment. With that report you can give to the appraiser who can write a more accurate report with ACTUAL replacement value.

 

[pregcurious]

The general answer to your question is that an appraiser can't possibly estimate the replacement of your stone without first knowing what it is. I would not go back to that appraiser again, and I would start by sending the stone to AGL, as suggested by the previous posters.

The good news is that the platinum mounting alone and the stones would probably cost you $800, so even if the sapphire came back as beryllium-infused, you did not get totally. ripped off.

 

[colorluvr]

I meant they will not give you an inflated amount based on just an appraisal. Insurance companies will find a ring that they can buy wholesale that "fits the description" of your appraisal. Without a lab report, they will find a hightly treated blue sapphire ring that they can buy for very little money that looks similar.

They will then offer you the replacement ring or whatever that ring would cost THEM... in this case it would probably be less than $500 because they buy at wholesale prices. It's like insuring an older car for what it would cost YOU to replace it. You get in a wreck and total your car and they find one that costs half of what it would cost you to buy another similar car (because they buy at wholesale) and offer you the other car or what it cost THEM to buy that car. You are stuck because the replacement car is probably a piece of junk, (but is still the same make and model) so you just take the cash.

Same with jewelry unless you have a lab report that states EXACTLY what the gemstone is, unheated, traditional heating, etc. In this case, if the sapphire has only been heated, you can insist that they replace it with a like stone. Without a lab report, you are stuck with what they come up with that "looks the same" and is of similar size and color OR you take the cash that they offer you.

As you can see, I've been down this road before and I received next to nothing for a beautiful tanzanite ring that was stolen. They found a cheapy ring that "fit the description" of my appraisal and gave me a few hundred dollars for a precision cut top color tanzanite.

My experience was with the company that had my homeowner's insurance and I just had a rider for my jewelry. I won't make that mistake again.

I should add that the above is just based on my experience with my old insurance company.

 

[tara3056]

Another option could be that it's a lab-created sapphire, couldn't it? It would still test as a sapphire using the usual diamond-ruby-sapphire probe test that most jewelers and appraisers have. However, if it were to be determined to be lab-created, then it is worth far, FAR less than a natural sapphire (even a treated one, in most cases). So again it would be worth sending it off to see what it really is. It won't even have to be unmounted, and the price of the lab report would bring clarity and peace of mind.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Okay, thank you. I guess I really will have to send it off again before dealing with my insurance co. Dangit. I miss it when it's gone!

I do want to avoid any tomfoolery like what happened to colorluvr, should the worst happen and I have to file a claim. I have USAA and they're generally pretty great.. but I don't know. It kind of seems impossible that jewelers could be so clueless. Why didn't he just tell me I'd have to have a lab report? GAH.

My first thought when I heard the price he paid was that it was lab-created but when reading "fairly good" clarity doesn't that mean the jeweler saw inclusions? Aren't created gems mostly perfect?

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I think he is smoking crack simply because of this:

Also holding six round brilliant shape diamonds, SI1 clarity, near colorless (I), cut to fairly good proportions, total weight about .06 carats, valued at $1,600.00 per carat or a valuation of $96.00

1 point diamonds valued at $1,600 per carat is looney town. It is more like $550/carat or lower if buying in quantity (as a large jewelry maker would). http://www.apertrading.com/prices.html

Second, as everyone else has said, what has he based his valuation of the sapphire on?

 

[pregcurious]

I used to have USAA, but I have never filed a claim. I think they do replacement, but you can call and they will tell you over the phone. I actually changed over to Jeweler's Mutual because they do a steep discount for jewelry in a safety deposit box, and there claim policies were better--I just can't remember anymore what they are because I switched over years ago.

You don't want to have an inflated appraisal because your insurance cost on it will be high.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

I called and USAA said with my appraisal they'd insure it for up to $13,500 with no deductible but I could choose a lesser amount. But it's $150 a year! I'll pay for the ring over again every 8 years. Nuts.

$5,000 worth of coverage is $55 a year. I could replace the ring for that, certainly. I think.

I mean, it's unlikely that he bought an unheated/untreated sapphire that's this pretty and this size for less than $800. Like, unicorn levels of unlikely. So it's probably highly heated/treated. And I'm guessing since it got a "fairly good" on clarity that it's not lab-created. Are these safe assumptions? I kind of want to just insure it for a lower cost and not send it away.

Sooo, Pricescope, where can I find some highly-treated sapphires in platinum settings to comparison-shop?

I feel like I just asked the Pope where to find the best Roman hookers.

 

[LD]

The value of your sapphire depends on treatment (or lack of). You probably know that from your search on here.

So, with that in mind, ask yourself these questions?

1. The "appraiser" has given you a carat weight that doesn't correspond with the stated weight when sold;
2. The "appraiser" has given you a replacement value WITHOUT knowing if treatment have been applied.

Therefore you need to absolutely 100% ignore everything he/she has told you. If I were you, I'd be furious because it's grossly misleading.

If you want to have a TRUE and accurate idea of value you need to send to AGL for a report to find out if treatments have been applied. Then we can give you a ballpark figure of $ per carat based on photos (which is never great but is the best we have).

My concern for you is that this is possibly BE diffused or filled. Think about it, why would an Ebay seller (or any seller for that matter) sell a ring for $800 if the stone was unheated or just heated? The ring by itself might be worth $400 so that tells you that "value" of the sapphire.

Now having said all that, you may have been lucky and I hope you have, but don't waste your money insuring something and paying premiums on a grossly inflated value.

Got to go ........ am off to smoke crack with your appraiser.

 

[colorluvr]

I called and USAA said with my appraisal they'd insure it for up to $13,500 with no deductible but I could choose a lesser amount. But it's $150 a year! I'll pay for the ring over again every 8 years. Nuts.

$5,000 worth of coverage is $55 a year. I could replace the ring for that, certainly. I think.

I mean, it's unlikely that he bought an unheated/untreated sapphire that's this pretty and this size for less than $800. Like, unicorn levels of unlikely. So it's probably highly heated/treated. And I'm guessing since it got a "fairly good" on clarity that it's not lab-created. Are these safe assumptions? I kind of want to just insure it for a lower cost and not send it away.

They will take your premiums for $13,500, but they didn't say they'd pay you that in cash if you lost the ring did they? They probably said they'd "replace it" with a ring up to that value. Call them back and pin them down and ask if they'd send you a check for $13,500 if you lost the ring. I'd be shocked if they said yes and if they do, get it in writing... Seriously, they get over-inflated appraisals all the time and they don't care what you insure it for. Insurance companies make money by insuring your items, not by paying out on claims.

As I said before, they will find a "replacement ring" and offer you the ring or what they would pay for the replacement ring, not the insured amount.

If you feel comfortable insuring the ring for $800 and not sending it to a lab to verify what you have, then you probably should do that and just enjoy wearing your ring.

 

[pinkjewel]

I have USAA insurance on my jewelry. They no longer send checks. that is a fairly recent change. They, like almost all other insurance companies, "replace" the piece. It is sooooo important to have detailed appraisals so they can't try to replace with an inferior item. I have not filed a claim, but if you look at people's comments on the USAA site since this change in policy- there are a lot more negative reviews. I've kept the insurance as I really haven't heard of anything better available. I will say that the agents are quite pleasant on the phone.

 

[SB621]

I have USAA insurance on my jewelry. They no longer send checks. that is a fairly recent change. They, like almost all other insurance companies, "replace" the piece. It is sooooo important to have detailed appraisals so they can't try to replace with an inferior item. I have not filed a claim, but if you look at people's comments on the USAA site since this change in policy- there are a lot more negative reviews. I've kept the insurance as I really haven't heard of anything better available. I will say that the agents are quite pleasant on the phone.

Pink- I have USAA and I just got a check from them last month for a ring I lost, but I also had receipts, a lab report and an apprisal as it was a custom piece. USAA requires all of this for a check if you don't accept a "replacement."

OP as I already stated I wouldn't bother insuring this piece. Synthetics have inclusions so yes it is highly probably the sapphire you have isn't real unfortunately. You seem to love the ring regardless of what it is or isn't so take it as that. Love it for the sentiment it was given to you and don't bother insuring. Save the money for something else.

 

[minousbijoux]

Love the title - had to come here first just for the title alone! Now I'll have to go back and actually read the thread

 

[PrecisionGem]

If the picture is at all accurate, and the stone is indeed a natural sapphire, and let's assume it's heated, and around 3 cts., then you won't be able to replace that sapphire for $800. Figure around $1000 per ct at a wholesale gem show to buy the sapphire as a starting point, with prices going up depending on the quality of the stone.

I can't comment on the ring it's self, but it seems that many of the regulars here buy rings made in China on eBay and pay $200 to $800 just for the ring.

I'd say you have a heck of a buy on the ring, assuming it is a sapphire, and those are diamonds and the metal in the ring is platinum.

Outside of a very small percentage of people, a heated sapphire compared to un-heated means nothing.

The true test I suppose would be to go to another local jeweler, and ask him to make you 3 ct. ring in a platinum setting with some diamonds. See what the quote is. I bet it's not $800!

 

[aaronl]

Another reality check: Are the vendor's other pieces priced in the "too good to be true" category?

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Okay! Just got off the phone with USAA again.. had to wait a million years while she checked the regulations in IL, but she confirmed that USAA would issue a check for the insured amount at my request and I did not have to replace the ring. And it's in writing in the policy. Sooo, yay Illinois?

I still am not insuring it for $13,500 though, and overpaying for years on the slight chance someone rips it off my finger someday.

Now, do I send it off to a lab and pay another bunch of cash to find out what it is? Or just assume it's highly treated and insure it for a lower amount? I couldn't replace it for $1000, so I need some kind of additional insurance.

Y'all are awesome, by the way. I wish I could buy you all flowers.

 

[colorluvr]

Based on your last post, I would still send it to AGL and get a gembrief on the ring. Yes, it will cost around $100, but it is also peace of mind and then you won't have to worry about what to do.... ie, if it's only heated, it's worth getting a "real" appraisal after you have the gembrief; if it's treated, then you can just look around at similar rings with treated stones and insure it for that if you choose to insure it at all.

 

[lambskin]

If the sapphire is lab created would the seller's description of "genuine" as opposed to 'natural' be false'?
I would guess if there is no mention of treatment that it is treated as seller's make much ado about "unheated" or 'no enhancement". $800 seems like a good deal even if the stone was treated based on the setting and size of the sapphire. Since it appears you got a pretty good deal as is, I would get the report to see if you really scored a super duper deal and and insure per report. I think that stone looks really pretty from the pictures.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Thank you, PrecisionGem. That's really helpful. I can tell you it's platinum, because my skin is still attached to my body and I am hideously allergic to most metals. The stones? I guess a lab would tell me but sarahbear is right in that I don't care much about treatment levels. At all. It's pretty and my beloved is proud of it and so am I.

I'll take your advice and see how much a local jeweler would charge me for a custom ring with these specs. I just feel a little weird asking someone to give me a quote that I know I won't use and wasting her time. I thought that's kind of what I was paying for with an appraisal.

If I get another CrazyTown quote maybe I'll just use the $1000 a carat price, add $1000 for a platinum setting and insure it for $4000 or $5000. That's affordable and would make me comfortable I could make myself relatively whole if it's lost or stolen.

I hear you colorluvr. If it's only $100 or so maybe I'll save up for curiosity's sake. It's just, we're kind of poor. Life in the nonprofit world has it's rewards but they're definitely not financial!

Thank you all so much!

 

[minousbijoux]

Now that I've gotten around to responding, it looks like everything has been figured out!

I agree with Precision Gem in that I, too, think you got a great deal - clearly not so much if its synthetic. Do you have a loupe? What do you see when you look at the stone under magnification?

Everyone here has given great advice and I agree with it all. You don't have to do it right away, but if, over time, you really fall deeply, madly in love with your stone, then you may want to send it off to AGL. Let's just say it turns out to be untreated - which would mean your fiance is a treasure finder - you may want that specified, if you care. Perhaps this is moot if you really do get the full $13K coverage in writing. But also know that as prices continue to increase, your insurance will stay static, and the value will eventually outstrip the coverage (but not for a while).

Now, yay to hubby to be for finding the ring on ebay! I don't have the courage to buy estate jewelry from ebay - can I borrow him?!!

 

[LD]

Hang on a minute - Gene - I'm sorry but your advice is misleading.

If the OP goes to a jeweller and says how much to make this will that matter at all if the ring goes missing? No. It's a complete waste of time. If this is a BE sapphire it won't be worth $1000 per carat AND if her crack smoking appraiser didn't even think of that when valuing the ring then I wouldn't trust his appraisal at all.

I would listen to Sarahbear - her insurance company asked her to produce a receipt, an appraisal AND a lab report. If you produce a receipt for $800 and an appraisal for $13,500 then guess how much the insurers will pay you out? $800. So, just in case this is only heated, it's worth getting the lab report.

To give you an example at how much you can pick up huge blue sapphires and very cheap, here are some comparisons for you. You'll have to change from £ to $. Clearly the clarity of the first 3 is not good but look at the last one. That's got good clarity and is set in gold.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Thank you, lambskin. It is really really pretty. I'm not even really a jewelry person.. but I just stare at it. I know part of my enamored reaction is sappy love stuff but some of it is DANG that's a gorgeous blue stone. I never thought I would own something so beautiful. I feel like a movie star. Or a princess.

Okay now I'm embarrassed.

I'll talk to my beloved about sending it off to the lab, and I'll be sure to update this thread if we get more info.

This is how I feel about Pricescope:

 

[minousbijoux]

Thank you, PrecisionGem. That's really helpful. I can tell you it's platinum, because my skin is still attached to my body and I am hideously allergic to most metals. The stones? I guess a lab would tell me but sarahbear is right in that I don't care much about treatment levels. At all. It's pretty and my beloved is proud of it and so am I.

I'll take your advice and see how much a local jeweler would charge me for a custom ring with these specs. I just feel a little weird asking someone to give me a quote that I know I won't use and wasting her time. I thought that's kind of what I was paying for with an appraisal.

If I get another CrazyTown quote maybe I'll just use the $1000 a carat price, add $1000 for a platinum setting and insure it for $4000 or $5000. That's affordable and would make me comfortable I could make myself relatively whole if it's lost or stolen.

I hear you colorluvr. If it's only $100 or so maybe I'll save up for curiosity's sake. It's just, we're kind of poor. Life in the nonprofit world has it's rewards but they're definitely not financial!

Thank you all so much!

So true, but so impressed with the commitment of those in the nonprofit world. Also, maybe, with your fiance's acumen, eye, and/or luck, you can make $$ on the side!

Others here can probably respond better to the questions regarding the seller, but my (very) limited experience with estate sellers is that they make their money in high turnover, which means they don't want to take the time to determine much about the sapphire. They probably take risks when they buy (e.g., they see a platinum setting with diamonds, they loupe the sapphire and see "stuff," perhaps they saw slight facet abrasion) and they take an educated risk that its real - likely treated, but real. They get it cheap and they sell it for more, but cheap enough so that they sell it with no representation other than its "natural" and someone buys it on faith that its not fake. Its not as easy to determine whether a stone has been invasively treated, so no estate seller would bother. Its a gamble, but many of our members - I believe Sarahbear included - have gotten some amazing pieces of jewelry second hand in this fashion.

I'm still trying to screw up my courage to dive in.

 

[minousbijoux]

Thank you, lambskin. It is really really pretty. I'm not even really a jewelry person.. but I just stare at it. I know part of my enamored reaction is sappy love stuff but some of it is DANG that's a gorgeous blue stone. I never thought I would own something so beautiful. I feel like a movie star. Or a princess.

Okay now I'm embarrassed.

I'll talk to my beloved about sending it off to the lab, and I'll be sure to update this thread if we get more info.

This is how I feel about Pricescope:

This is soooo cool!

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Hi minous! Can I tell you how weird it is to be interacting with all of you when I've been reading your words for months and months? It's like talking to your favorite television actor.

I don't have a loupe. All I know is that the jeweler he bought it from said it had very slight inclusions and my jeweler said "fairly good eye clean" clarity. I don't see anything except pretty blue (and lint) when I look at it with the naked eye.