Sapphire reality check: is my appraiser smoking crack?

[minousbijoux]

Hah, hah! I know what you mean - when I first came here, I couldn't believe it when all these fabulous (and in their case, knowledgable) gemlovers started talking to me!!

My point about louping the stone is that often that can tell someone in the trade a lot about the stone and its treatment. Of course, there are examples where determined and sophisticated entrepreneurs have created synthetic sapphires with inclusions to fool others. But some people (I'm not one of them) can tell by the inclusions themselves whether they're natural or not. There are also inclusions that I can identify (and most here can too) which can give you a probability of unheated status. Really, as you know, from a consumer perspective, all we really care about is eye clean. But from the perspective of helping in the investigation ( ) of what you've got, by louping the stone you might get some clues. That's what I was trying to say!

 

[LD]

Hi minous! Can I tell you how weird it is to be interacting with all of you when I've been reading your words for months and months? It's like talking to your favorite television actor.

I don't have a loupe. All I know is that the jeweler he bought it from said it had very slight inclusions and my jeweler said "fairly good eye clean" clarity. I don't see anything except pretty blue (and lint) when I look at it with the naked eye.

That's another indicator that may point to diffusion. I REALLY hope I'm wrong You seem so sweet and the ring looks lovely on your hand. Actually I think I'd just be tempted to insure it for $800 and enjoy wearing it!

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I understand you are poor and the 100.00 is a lot to send it to a lab. But, if the ring is genuine, you won't really be so poor. Here is my story.

I was new , didn't know much, and found a thai dealer on ebay that auctioned rubies. I was so excited to get these nice rubies for so little, I went overboard and bought at least 10 of them. Then I found PS. and learned these rubies could be all sorts of bad things.
I decided to send 2 of them to AGL to see what they were , to satisfy myself that they were junk. Only one was not junk. It tested out as a heated red ruby--the other one was a composite(new term for glass filled rubies). So I was happy. It is possible that your sapphire, which looks wonderful, could turn out the same. I am an optimist by nature, so I would get it tested.

There are other stones I have purchased that were inexpensive --an 81 pt yellow diamond for $300.00 that turned out to be very good. Do send it the lab. It may worth the 100.00. Don't over insure.

Your ring looks lovely.,

Annette

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Thank you, LD. I agree it seems too good to be true. But, sometimes good things happen!

I think that my plan will be to insure it now for $5,000ish and trust that USAA would replace it with a natural stone, whether or not it's untreated, since that is what was represented by the seller and it was confirmed by the appraiser, even if he is a bit of a crack-smoker.

I'll send it off to the lab sometime soonish, too. (My dumb car needs new struts. Why can't cars understand there are important things to spend our money on? Like sapphires! And weddings! Sheesh.) I'll adjust my insurance parameters up or down based on those findings. I guess more documentation is better, considering our very low purchase price. I don't want to end up in a fight with my insurance company. Mostly because I'm pretty sure they always win!

 

[SB621]

Thank you, PrecisionGem. That's really helpful. I can tell you it's platinum, because my skin is still attached to my body and I am hideously allergic to most metals. The stones? I guess a lab would tell me but sarahbear is right in that I don't care much about treatment levels. At all. It's pretty and my beloved is proud of it and so am I.

I'll take your advice and see how much a local jeweler would charge me for a custom ring with these specs. I just feel a little weird asking someone to give me a quote that I know I won't use and wasting her time. I thought that's kind of what I was paying for with an appraisal.

If I get another CrazyTown quote maybe I'll just use the $1000 a carat price, add $1000 for a platinum setting and insure it for $4000 or $5000. That's affordable and would make me comfortable I could make myself relatively whole if it's lost or stolen.

I hear you colorluvr. If it's only $100 or so maybe I'll save up for curiosity's sake. It's just, we're kind of poor. Life in the nonprofit world has it's rewards but they're definitely not financial!

Thank you all so much!

So true, but so impressed with the commitment of those in the nonprofit world. Also, maybe, with your fiance's acumen, eye, and/or luck, you can make $$ on the side!

Others here can probably respond better to the questions regarding the seller, but my (very) limited experience with estate sellers is that they make their money in high turnover, which means they don't want to take the time to determine much about the sapphire. They probably take risks when they buy (e.g., they see a platinum setting with diamonds, they loupe the sapphire and see "stuff," perhaps they saw slight facet abrasion) and they take an educated risk that its real - likely treated, but real. They get it cheap and they sell it for more, but cheap enough so that they sell it with no representation other than its "natural" and someone buys it on faith that its not fake. Its not as easy to determine whether a stone has been invasively treated, so no estate seller would bother. Its a gamble, but many of our members - I believe Sarahbear included - have gotten some amazing pieces of jewelry second hand in this fashion.

I'm still trying to screw up my courage to dive in.

Perhaps I'm looking too far into this, but I never said there was anything with buying off ebay or the second hand market. I'm a big fan of it, but I think you should know what you are buying and not just hope for the best. Meaning reports and a good return window. And I wouldn't go so far as to say I have found awesome deals. From my experience estate and almost all jewelry stores know exactly what they are selling you. Don't think that because the price is low is because they aren't taking the time to determine the actual value of the item- that is just crazy and bad business all around.

 

[JewelFreak]

I hate to be a downer, but in my experience with insurance co's, if you have a receipt for $800 & no other evidence such as a lab report that the ring is worth more, they won't give you $5 grand for it. They'll take your premium money but if it's lost or stolen, as others said, they'll price out a cheapy ring that looks similar & give you that, maybe up to $800 or a little more, but not $5 thou.

The setting should be worth at least the $800 -- if it's platinum, it should have a mark of PT or PLAT somewhere on its inside. Good idea to take photos of it -- including the platinum marking -- and keep them with the receipt.

It's a really lovely ring. And neat that you love it so much! When you can, send it to AGL for peace of mind one way or the other, and just keep on feeling like a princess. Maybe he'll find a fantastic used royal tiara for you next time!

--- Laurie

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Hi Annette,

Thank you for your stories. You are so sweet to share them with me and I am glad you've had such good luck!

xo

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Thank you, Laurie and Sarahbear.

Laurie, since I've followed my insurer's instructions and had an appraisal (and questioned everything twice because of colorluvr's similar bad experience), if they still don't treat me fairly I will be so surprised and disappointed. They haven't asked for a lab report and seem perfectly satisfied with my CrazyTown appraisal. I just don't know what else I can do so I'll just be really careful until I have it looked at by the AGL. Then I'll know if I can drop insurance or I have to raise my limits!

It is marked platinum on the inside of the ring, so I will take a photo of that. Thank you!

xo

 

[LD]

The reality with insurance companies is that they do EVERYTHING to get out of paying you. Trust me, they will ignore the appraisal because they will look at the dates you bought it, look at the appraisal and then (just like you thought) will send the crack pipe around to the appraiser. I love your faith in them but unfortunately it's likely to bite you in the bum.

Can you share the name of the vendor on Ebay - sometimes looking at their inventory sends warning or reassuring signals?

Lastly, just because something has a hallmark doesn't mean it's so! Ebay sellers are now commonly marking silver rings with hallmarks and all sorts of other shennanigans. Did your appraisal test the setting? It's simple and easy to do and would tell you either way.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Sure! I don't mind sharing that. If it's a great deal then it's good advertising, and if they sold something as "genuine" when it's not then I don't mind embarrassing them, either. I will say their pictures were very very purple in the listing. I was very surprised and pleased when I saw the actual ring. It's much bluer than their photos showed, which I like.

It's rsnpdiamondexchange on ebay. My amateur internet stalking showed a normal-looking store in NY somewhere. But maybe it's a front for the mob! Or maybe the ring was a murder weapon and that's why they sold it for cheap!

I don't know if this link will work: http://myworld.ebay.com/rsnpdiamondexchange/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Also, re: a fake hallmark, the appraisal did mention the setting is platinum but I'm not sure about the testing or if he took the hallmark at its word. I would guess he tested, and he did size the ring down approximately 1.25 sizes so my feeling is he'd have been able to tell the difference between working with platinum vs. silver. I don't know.

It's annoying that everything is guesses and feelings and you can't really take people/businesses at their word.

 

[LD]

If the jeweller resized the ring then it's most probably what it says - platinum! That's good news.

Ok, looking at the Ebay vendor I have some serious doubts. They've only been on Ebay since June 2012 and have got 39 feedback. 1 feedback (the negative) states that the vendor lied about the quality of the diamonds.

Looking at what they have for sale now, some of the items (mainly the coloured gemstones) are woefully scant. For example, this is a Ruby that he says is AAA quality (there's no such thing with a Ruby and even if there was, this wouldn't even get one A). I strongly suspect that this is a dyed/filled Ruby. Basically it's crud and what you're paying for is the setting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-1-89tcw-Genuine-Natural-Ruby-14KW-Gold-Genuine-Diamond-Halo-Ring-/221190036408?pt=US_Fine_Rings&hash=item337ff41bb8

With this one, on the face of it you'd think you were getting a steal of a deal but look at the light flooding the ring. If you look closely you can also see that there are diagonal lines running across the Ruby. I suspect this will be very apparent and the stone much darker as well. As for treatments? Like the one above it's highly suspect. Having said that, IF those are diamonds then it's worth getting just for the setting and throwing away the Ruby!!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wonderful-14KYG-Vintage-Lady-Di-Style-1-50ctw-Genuine-Ruby-and-Diamond-Ring-/221192196195?pt=US_Fine_Rings&hash=item3380151063


I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to have found either an unheated or heated sapphire without any other treatments so I'll keep my fingers crossed - you never know, you could be lucky!

 

[minousbijoux]

Others here can probably respond better to the questions regarding the seller, but my (very) limited experience with estate sellers is that they make their money in high turnover, which means they don't want to take the time to determine much about the sapphire. They probably take risks when they buy (e.g., they see a platinum setting with diamonds, they loupe the sapphire and see "stuff," perhaps they saw slight facet abrasion) and they take an educated risk that its real - likely treated, but real. They get it cheap and they sell it for more, but cheap enough so that they sell it with no representation other than its "natural" and someone buys it on faith that its not fake. Its not as easy to determine whether a stone has been invasively treated, so no estate seller would bother. Its a gamble, but many of our members - I believe Sarahbear included - have gotten some amazing pieces of jewelry second hand in this fashion.

Perhaps I'm looking too far into this, but I never said there was anything with buying off ebay or the second hand market. I'm a big fan of it, but I think you should know what you are buying and not just hope for the best. Meaning reports and a good return window. And I wouldn't go so far as to say I have found awesome deals. From my experience estate and almost all jewelry stores know exactly what they are selling you. Don't think that because the price is low is because they aren't taking the time to determine the actual value of the item- that is just crazy and bad business all around.

I disagree with this for high volume estate jewelers and corundum - how can they possibly without a lab report, or do you think they have one and just aren't sharing?

Sorry for the overstatement - just LOVE your emerald bracelet and realize you probably paid market rate for it! I guess the awesome deals are more on the diamond side of things than with colored stones, and for those who pretty much know what they are looking for.

 

[JewelFreak]

But maybe it's a front for the mob! Or maybe the ring was a murder weapon and that's why they sold it for cheap!

It is depressing that we need to second-guess everything. And new ways to fake stuff coming out every 15 minutes, sigh. The internet's wonderful gifts & opportunities are just as good for crooks, as with technology.

--- Laurie

 

[FrekeChild]

Tee hee. I love this thread.

First, I've gotten some really good (some great) deals on ebay, but they've all been diamond bands. I won't go there with the sapphires or rubies, because it's just too scary for me to venture in there, but also, because I already have a lot of colored stones. A lot of times on ebay, you can get something great for cheap - especially right now. There are a lot of people who sell their items for peanuts to estate jewelers because they need money badly, and the jewelers/pawnshops can smell it. Plus, the average person likely knows next to nothing about jewelry. This ring could have a very interesting history. We don't know.

Second, I would get a lab report. Period. It's likely that the setting alone is worth what he paid, likely more. Even if the stone is synthetic corundum, it still has some value. Plus, it's beautiful!

Third, having just gone through an insurance dealio with Jeweler's Mutual/A Perfect Circle insurance, they will only go off a replacement appraisal and lab reports. If I gave them an appraisal that said $13,500, but wanted to insure it for $5,000, they would only insure it for $13,500. They don't have any paperwork stating that it's worth $5k, they just have paperwork stating that it's worth $13.5k. I would be surprised if any insurer would agree to insure it for less than the $13,500.

Great ring. Either way, I think he did very well! (And get a lab report!)

 

[chrono]

Looking at the other gemstone listing, I expect the stones to be treated up the wazoo (looking at price and quality).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Can you link the ebay page of THIS ring? You should still have it accessible if it was recently purchased. I think the stone looks too good. My bet is lab sapphire especially if they used the word "genuine". But even a lab sapphire in a platinum setting is a good buy at $800.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Yes, "genuine" was the word. Let me find the listing...

Here you are: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PLATINUM-3-...2v%2B4ZmTbIn2nRpWy79o%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Like I said, these photos look very purple and the ring is much more blue, even indoors. I guess that points even more strongly toward it being lab-created, right?

I was a little suspicious of it being synthetic at such an amazing price.. but was somewhat comforted that it appears to be a normal jewelry store http://www.rsnpdiamondexchange.com/ and that it wasn't flawless. I wrongly assumed that lab gems wouldn't have inclusions. But it is waaay prettier than it should be and I can't see a single flaw. But, gosh. If two different jewelers were fooled then how would I even stand a chance?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The cut and color just look too perfect to me. I think it is beautiful even if it is a lab sapphire! I just don't want you to waste insurance money on insuring it at all if it is lab created. I don't think I can post a link here of lab created, but a 7x9mm oval costs about $176.00. That kind of works with the setting to get you to the $800. I think you should enjoy the ring! But I really am not sure I'd send it to a lab.

 

[ohforcryingoutloud]

Yes, that seems right. Why spend more money on an AGL if it's going to come back synthetic? Or lab-created I guess is the proper term? But my jeweler says it's legit and they're good people.

I'm not sending it back no matter what because I looooove it even if it's from a box of cracker jack.. but on the other hand, I haven't yet left feedback and I wouldn't hesitate to fuss at the seller if it turned out to be something different than what was represented.

Huh.

$100 to satisfy our curiosity and *maybe* find out we hit the mini-lottery? Or have the satisfaction of "outing" a dishonest ebayer? Or save the $100 and just enjoy the lottery win of finding a sweet man to share my life with?

This is a pickle!

 

[minousbijoux]

Yes, that seems right. Why spend more money on an AGL if it's going to come back synthetic? Or lab-created I guess is the proper term? But my jeweler says it's legit and they're good people.

I'm not sending it back no matter what because I looooove it even if it's from a box of cracker jack.. but on the other hand, I haven't yet left feedback and I wouldn't hesitate to fuss at the seller if it turned out to be something different than what was represented.

Huh.

$100 to satisfy our curiosity and *maybe* find out we hit the mini-lottery? Or have the satisfaction of "outing" a dishonest ebayer? Or save the $100 and just enjoy the lottery win of finding a sweet man to share my life with?

This is a pickle!

Please become a regular poster - you have such a positive attitude!

It seems that the word "genuine" has connotations to some. Can someone explain? Is that commonly used to circumvent the truth?

 

[emmmme]

You can still leave positive feedback but maybe note in the comments that while you are in love with the ring, for the price you paid you won't be sure it's a real sapphire without a lab report.

And then you can still keep your $100 and enjoy your sweet-man lottery win!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Hang on a minute - Gene - I'm sorry but your advice is misleading.

If the OP goes to a jeweller and says how much to make this will that matter at all if the ring goes missing?

I can't understand why you think my advice is misleading. I would think the purpose of insuring something is so that if it is lost or stolen, you can replace it. Wouldn't you want to know what it would really cost to replace it?

Also, you can't compare the price of a 1 ct sapphire to a 3 ct sapphire. I doubt the jeweler she went to originally is a total idiot. Certainly he could see that the stone wasn't the very very low grade material you pictured. After all, he is in this business. I think she got a great deal, and is happy with the ring.

 

[SB621]

Yes, that seems right. Why spend more money on an AGL if it's going to come back synthetic? Or lab-created I guess is the proper term? But my jeweler says it's legit and they're good people.
I'm not sending it back no matter what because I looooove it even if it's from a box of cracker jack.. but on the other hand, I haven't yet left feedback and I wouldn't hesitate to fuss at the seller if it turned out to be something different than what was represented.

Huh.

$100 to satisfy our curiosity and *maybe* find out we hit the mini-lottery? Or have the satisfaction of "outing" a dishonest ebayer? Or save the $100 and just enjoy the lottery win of finding a sweet man to share my life with?

This is a pickle!

The bolded part- your jeweler can't tell you anything about this sapphire without a lab report...period- end of story. It doesn't matter what kind of people they are or how wonderful. Without a lab report their opinion is worthless.

MB- I think the majority of ebay finds are for diamonds....Colored Stones are a whole different ball game. I think you will find that PSers hardly ever purchase stones online without reports. Tan and most vendors offer a form of report for $30 extra which is well worth it. My emerald bracelet I purchased for the actual bracelet- the emerald was a bonus. If the emerald was a fake it wouldn't have mattered to me. i would have chucked it and added in something else.

 

[chrono]

It is a misconception that a synthetic stone is inclusion free. Some types, the better ones, have inclusions to make it look natural. Under magnification and with experience, the gemmologist can tell that the synthetic inclusions are different. A synthetic stone has the same chemical properties and characteristics as a natural stone, so the usual RI and SG testing will tell you it is a sapphire but not whether it is synthetic or natural.

 

[pinkjewel]

I have USAA insurance on my jewelry. They no longer send checks. that is a fairly recent change. They, like almost all other insurance companies, "replace" the piece. It is sooooo important to have detailed appraisals so they can't try to replace with an inferior item. I have not filed a claim, but if you look at people's comments on the USAA site since this change in policy- there are a lot more negative reviews. I've kept the insurance as I really haven't heard of anything better available. I will say that the agents are quite pleasant on the phone.

Pink- I have USAA and I just got a check from them last month for a ring I lost, but I also had receipts, a lab report and an apprisal as it was a custom piece. USAA requires all of this for a check if you don't accept a "replacement."

OP as I already stated I wouldn't bother insuring this piece. Synthetics have inclusions so yes it is highly probably the sapphire you have isn't real unfortunately. You seem to love the ring regardless of what it is or isn't so take it as that. Love it for the sentiment it was given to you and don't bother insuring. Save the money for something else.

Oh, wow- that is GREAT news Sarahbear!!!! Good to know in case anything happens in the future.

 

[pinkjewel]

Okay! Just got off the phone with USAA again.. had to wait a million years while she checked the regulations in IL, but she confirmed that USAA would issue a check for the insured amount at my request and I did not have to replace the ring. And it's in writing in the policy. Sooo, yay Illinois?

I still am not insuring it for $13,500 though, and overpaying for years on the slight chance someone rips it off my finger someday.

Now, do I send it off to a lab and pay another bunch of cash to find out what it is? Or just assume it's highly treated and insure it for a lower amount? I couldn't replace it for $1000, so I need some kind of additional insurance.

Y'all are awesome, by the way. I wish I could buy you all flowers.

Oh bummer, so does that mean it depends on the state you live in??

 

[LD]

Hang on a minute - Gene - I'm sorry but your advice is misleading.

If the OP goes to a jeweller and says how much to make this will that matter at all if the ring goes missing?

I can't understand why you think my advice is misleading. I would think the purpose of insuring something is so that if it is lost or stolen, you can replace it. Wouldn't you want to know what it would really cost to replace it?

Also, you can't compare the price of a 1 ct sapphire to a 3 ct sapphire. I doubt the jeweler she went to originally is a total idiot. Certainly he could see that the stone wasn't the very very low grade material you pictured. After all, he is in this business. I think she got a great deal, and is happy with the ring.

Gene I wish I had your faith. You know because you'll have seen the posts of here where "jewellers" have told people that they have X and it turns out to be Y. You can easily find out how much it would be to replace the setting BUT how can you price up the stone unless you know what it is? That's what I meant!

The jeweller that the OP used is clearly deficient if he has had the gaul to write an appraisal for a stone without knowing whether its natural, heated, or treated to any degree. An honest appraiser would get that information first (or ask you to). A GOOD jeweller will know this. A poor one will just write an appraisal.

Here are listings for synthetic sapphires. As you'll see despite being set in gold they are priced accordingly.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-10k-Yellow-Gold-Synthetic-Sapphire-Seed-Pearl-Cocktail-Ring-Fine-Jewelry-/360597969412?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53f5505a04

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-14K-GOLD-EARRINGS-w-SYNTHETIC-SAPPHIRE-NATURAL-BRILLIANTS-1920s-/160974104146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257acde652

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ladies-10k-white-gold-synthetic-blue-sapphire-halo-ring-size-6-1-2-122837-/360472804685?pt=Gemstone_Rings&hash=item53edda7d4d

These sellers are honest and have declared what the sapphires are but not all do. Compare it to this one that clearly is not honest about the "sapphire":

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jewellery-New-sapphire-ladys-10KT-white-Gold-Filled-Ring-size10-free-gift-/390545133294?pt=UK_JewelleryWatches_WomensJewellery_Rings_SR&hash=item5aee4dceee

 

[FrekeChild]

LD, you are acting as though it's impossible for this sapphire to be anything but synthetic. Being the owner of a ring that retails for roughly $4k, and having bought it for $450, I can tell you first hand that sometimes people sell stuff for much less than it's worth.

So I'm saying that it's possible that some poor desperate soul went to this jewelry store, sold it to them for the cost of scrap (that's what a lot of places buy things at, unless it has a large diamond in it) and they didn't care enough to send it to a lab so they could get top dollar, instead listing it as an auction on ebay, figuring that they were making a profit over the price of scrap, and that was good enough.

Or there are items that have been left in safety deposit boxes, and the owner has died. Or it could have been someone just trying to get rid of jewelry that was gifted to them, or or or or or!! There is an unlimited number of explanations for a natural sapphire to end up on ebay and be bought for a bargain price!

It very well could be synthetic, but it may not be just as easily!!!!!

 

[minousbijoux]

Freke: I'm an optimist too! I *think* Sarahbear provided her perspective earlier that sounds similar to LD's if that is any help.

Its a question of odds, really, with such factors as how shady the seller appears, how they describe it and what clues there are about the setting and stone. I know I'm preaching to the choir, because this is nothing that we all don't already know - it just makes me realize there are different perspectives and they all have merit.