School Pledge Is Ruled Unconstitutional

[ame]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050914/ap_on_re_us/pledge_of_allegiance

Frankly, I think this is a good judgement, though Im sure it will eventually be overturned. I am an atheist and have no desire to utter "under god" in such a phrase considering god has no place in government.

SUre, Ill get flamed for that, but not everyone believes in god, religions, etc., and we have separation of church and state (which is usually ignored) for a reason.

 

[rubydick]

Ame,

No flame from my direction. It''s a slam dunk for anyone with an open mind. If we have religious freedom in this country, that means that we have freedom from the government promoting one religion at the expense of another.

Much has been made about the thoughts of the founding fathers. To peer into their minds, we need look no further than the Treaty of Tripoli, a document signed off on by virtually everybody who was anybody in the founding of this nation. It says clearly:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

For those who believe the founding fathers based their decisions on some sort of Christian dogma, read the above and weep. That says it all.

But let me go further. Let us assume that the founding fathers were all devout Christians. Just where does that leave the other citizens of this nation? Let''s talk Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis, Aetheists, etc. Buddhist believe in no god, Hindus believe in many gods, just two as an example. Perhaps we should change the slogan on our coinage to "In Gods (or no Gods) We Trust." Would that suit you? Go ahead, discuss.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 9/15/2005 1:23:50 AM
Author: Richard Hughes

Perhaps we should change the slogan on our coinage to ''In Gods (or no Gods) We Trust.'' Would that suit you? Go ahead, discuss.

It took me a while (and some amount of chat with a prient too!) to get used with modern ecumenism moving out of a one-religion country. After a couple of years, hearing any reference to religion in public institutions (school included) just feels odd. Just a matter of habit rather than theology, apparently.

Now, ''in gods we trust'' has been applied successfully on the ground... [I read this on BBC online, but could not find the story right away] The astute diplomats turned out to be the board of some natural history museum in the US forced by the community to report religious ontology along with their evolutionary exhibit. The museum board solved the problem by agreeing to set up an exhibit of Christian creationism along with the ontological myths of various other religions. I still have some trouble holding back a smile just thinking of what the militant community might have had to say seeing their beloved beliefs threatened to be ranked along with all sorts of paganism - probably worse than good old science anyway

 

[ame]

Date: 9/15/2005 1:23:50 AM
Author: Richard Hughes
harmony existing between the two countries.''
Perhaps we should change the slogan on our coinage to ''In Gods (or no Gods) We Trust.'' Would that suit you? Go ahead, discuss.

How about not having that line at all, with or without mention of deity.

 

[yellowfan]

not to change the subj, whats happening in our schools?

My daughter's class cannot celebrate their american holidays due to offending any other children who have different customs and beliefs. So, I should ship my kid out of country to have a Halloween or Thanksgiving party??? I am fed up with my kid not having her traditions and doing what a american child should celebrating any holiday if they want to.....

When I went to school we had Thanksgiving plays and musicals, traditions and customs, not anymore.


edited to add: The children that were different religious beliefs did not have to be involved with any bit of the hour party for any holiday. One girls mom made the biggest deal over halloween and then I seen her child trick o treating as a witch..... Give me a break. this was 2nd grade.

 

[ame]

I think ALL holidays should be celebrated. Christmas, Chanukah (sp)...etc and ALL kids should celebrate ALL of them. A lot of American kids aren''t properly exposed to all other cultures, etc, and should be accepting of ALL religions, ALL races, ALL everything. It''s very frustrating how bigoted and blind a lot of kids are because some folks cannot handle their kid learning about anything other than their own particular viewpoint.

 

[Blue824]

I have always thought "in god" should be taken out of the pledge. I guess these cases have sort of confused me though, do schools really FORCE children to say the pledge? Like to children get in trouble for skipping it or for not saying in god!? When I was in k-8 no one was ever forced to say the pledge. I was part of a group that never said the "in god" line. Many of our international students sat the pledge out, since it wasn''t their country.. Btw, this was public school, not private.

Date: 9/15/2005 12:26:30 PM
Author: yellowfan
not to change the subj, whats happening in our schools?

My daughter''s class cannot celebrate their american holidays due to offending any other children who have different customs and beliefs. So, I should ship my kid out of country to have a Halloween or Thanksgiving party??? I am fed up with my kid not having her traditions and doing what a american child should celebrating any holiday if they want to.....

When I went to school we had Thanksgiving plays and musicals, traditions and customs, not anymore.

edited to add: The children that were different religious beliefs did not have to be involved with any bit of the hour party for any holiday. One girls mom made the biggest deal over halloween and then I seen her child trick o treating as a witch..... Give me a break. this was 2nd grade.

Yellowfan, that''s just messed up! It seems like the school is shying away from teaching children about the other rich cultures around the world. Its really too bad.

Makes me feel lucky for the school system I ended up in, guess I take it forgranted. Not only did we have the typical holidays off, we had Jewish holidays. Everything was celebrated or talked about. It wasnt Christmas break, but winter vacation to not show preference for one holiday over the other. Instead of closing off all holidays and traditions, they incorporated as many as possible. I guess I can''t imagine an education otherwise.

 

[strmrdr]

I believe that forcing anyone to say any kind of pledge is wrong.
Children or adults.
Is it wonder that children learn nothing of honor these days?
Not that my generation or myself have any room to talk but atleast we were taught it.

 

[MrBleeker]

Date: 9/16/2005 12:04:36 AM
Author: strmrdr
I believe that forcing anyone to say any kind of pledge is wrong.
Children or adults.
Is it wonder that children learn nothing of honor these days?
Not that my generation or myself have any room to talk but atleast we were taught it.

I see the whole ruling as a loss of honor. I took great honor in reciting this pledge throughout my life. It had nothing to do with God, I was too young throughout school to realize the implications of a God in my life. I did it because I was taught it was patriotic, and it meant I understood who had fought and died for my to have the rights I enjoy today.

''Tis a sad day when schools are no longer allowed to say the Pledge of Allegiance. In my opinion, which will differ from several here, it should be required. But it is even more sad when those who opt to do it, do so unconstiutionally?

Keep in mind, it is not unconstitutional yet; and the US Supreme court won''t outlaw it just as they declined to pass on ruling on it previously.

 

[MrBleeker]

Date: 9/15/2005 1:23:50 AM
Author: Richard Hughes
Ame,

No flame from my direction. It's a slam dunk for anyone with an open mind. If we have religious freedom in this country, that means that we have freedom from the government promoting one religion at the expense of another.

Much has been made about the thoughts of the founding fathers. To peer into their minds, we need look no further than the Treaty of Tripoli, a document signed off on by virtually everybody who was anybody in the founding of this nation. It says clearly:

'As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.'

For those who believe the founding fathers based their decisions on some sort of Christian dogma, read the above and weep. That says it all.

But let me go further. Let us assume that the founding fathers were all devout Christians. Just where does that leave the other citizens of this nation? Let's talk Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis, Aetheists, etc. Buddhist believe in no god, Hindus believe in many gods, just two as an example. Perhaps we should change the slogan on our coinage to 'In Gods (or no Gods) We Trust.' Would that suit you? Go ahead, discuss.

Richard,

More posts that aren't backed. Take a look at this copied link ( ) You'll see each fact is supported by research. Get back to me with some counterpoint and we can debate!



Click for original link



Treaty of Tripoli

by David Barton - excerpt taken from his book... entirely published about the misconceptions about the Treaty of Tripoli.

The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, specifically article XI, is commonly misused in editorial columns, articles, as well as in other areas of the media, both Christian and secular. We have received numerous questions from people who have been misled by the claims that are being made, namely, that America was not founded as a Christian nation. Advocates of this idea use the Treaty of Tripoli as the foundation of their entire argument, and we believe you deserve to know the truth regarding this often misused document.

 

[MrBleeker]

Date: 9/15/2005 1:23:50 AM
Author: Richard Hughes
Ame,

No flame from my direction. It''s a slam dunk for anyone with an open mind. If we have religious freedom in this country, that means that we have freedom from the government promoting one religion at the expense of another.

Much has been made about the thoughts of the founding fathers. To peer into their minds, we need look no further than the Treaty of Tripoli, a document signed off on by virtually everybody who was anybody in the founding of this nation. It says clearly:

''As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.''

For those who believe the founding fathers based their decisions on some sort of Christian dogma, read the above and weep. That says it all.

.

Bold words. Let me just say, read this link and articles associated with it, and you can''t argue your point anymoer. I am not an expert on this subject, but I could refute everything you are typing by my own accord. But to have validity, check out my links. These people have used their lives researching this document among others, and are experts on the subject.


Original Link

Yale Law School research into this subject.

3. The Treaty with Tripoli says the US is not a Christian nation
We set this straight on our homepage about 5 years ago but here it is again:

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli opens with the statement "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." and continues with a slavish declaration of America''s support for Islam.

But none of this appears in the original treaty, and how it got there is one of the strangest hoaxes in history. The treaty was negotiated by Captain Richard O''Brien and originally written in Arabic. O''Brien sent it for signature to Joel Barlow, the American Consul at Algiers, who had an English translation prepared. Article 11 of the actual treaty contains a letter written in poor Arabic that does not say anything like what was inserted.

Barlow signed the treaty in 1796 and sent it to Washington. But six months later, James Leander Cathcart, dispatched as Consul to Tripoli, discovered the error. Cathcart had a corrected copy of the treaty sent to the State Department - in Italian! But nobody at State bothered to translate the Italian and compare it to the original until 1930, and it is the Barlow translation, with the erroneous Article 11, that appears in our statute books.

All of this is documented at the Avalon Project of Yale Law School.

Bottom line, don''t let the atheists tell you any official American document actually renounces Christianity. But go read Barlow''s Article 11, as Muslims flood into the West, this error will have consequences. Cathcart''s corrected translation is here.

You may know that we have never gotten a religious liberty bill passed. Every one that has been proposed - and there have been six or seven - has said that America has no founding religious philosophy. That''s simply not true, and God won''t let such a bill be made law. The Declaration of Independence stakes our claim to freedom on "the Laws of Nature and of Nature''s God," an 18th Century term of art in English Law that means "the eternal immutable principles of right and wrong" to which God Himself conforms, found only in the Holy Bible. Don''t believe it? Here''s the source - the book Jefferson studied as a law student.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/16/2005 5:00:53 AM
Author: MrBleeker
I took great honor in reciting this pledge throughout my life. It had nothing to do with God, I was too young throughout school to realize the implications of a God in my life. I did it because I was taught it was patriotic, and it meant I understood who had fought and died for my to have the rights I enjoy today.

This is how you felt. That does not mean it is the only way anyone should feel. My parents are Quakers. Although my father is a veteran of World War II (he became a Quaker later in life), he and my mother do not believe that people should pledge allegiance to the flag of any one country. They believe that all people in the world should be respected equally because God is in all people.

You do not have to agree with them. I am not a Quaker myself. What I am suggesting is that their point of view is as valid as yours, yet you feel that because you like the Pledge of Allegiance that it should be said by everyone regardless of what he believes.

Deborah

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/16/2005 5:00:53 AM
Author: MrBleeker

Date: 9/16/2005 12:04:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

I believe that forcing anyone to say any kind of pledge is wrong.

Children or adults.

Is it wonder that children learn nothing of honor these days?

Not that my generation or myself have any room to talk but atleast we were taught it.

I see the whole ruling as a loss of honor. I took great honor in reciting this pledge throughout my life. It had nothing to do with God, I was too young throughout school to realize the implications of a God in my life. I did it because I was taught it was patriotic, and it meant I understood who had fought and died for my to have the rights I enjoy today.


'Tis a sad day when schools are no longer allowed to say the Pledge of Allegiance. In my opinion, which will differ from several here, it should be required. But it is even more sad when those who opt to do it, do so unconstiutionally?


Keep in mind, it is not unconstitutional yet; and the US Supreme court won't outlaw it just as they declined to pass on ruling on it previously.

I agree with you that the ruling that it cant be said because it has God in it is bogus.
But:
When a pledge is said by force it loses all meaning.
A pledge should be on ones honor.
I say it with pride and meaning and of my free will.
To force someone to say it is wrong.

For all its faults the US is the greatest country that ever existed.
The leadership may take a wrong turn from time to time and she may get a black eye because of it but I wouldnt trade her for anywhere else.

I pledge allegance because of the freedoms I have and to honor those that have faught and died for those freedoms.
I firmly believe that real Americans will say it because they mean it and that the youngsters need to be taught what it means and why it is said. Not forced to say it.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/16/2005 7:54:41 AM
Author: strmrdr
When a pledge is said by force it loses all meaning.

A pledge should be on ones honor.

I say it with pride and meaning and of my free will.

To force someone to say it is wrong.

I agree completely. My daughter had a pre-school teacher when she was 3 and 4 who did not make the children apologize for their wrongdoing. She said that, at that age, they never were sorry for having done something wrong (although they might be sorry they had been caught). She dealt with the behavior, but didn't force the child to say words he didn't mean. (As far as I recall, apologies were not forbidden if the child wanted to utter one of his own free will!)

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

O.K. maybe I misunderstood the argument. I thought that the child wasn''t forced to recite the Pledge (specifically "under God"). I thought that the child was forced (by being in the classroom) to LISTEN to the Pledge.

Clarification?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/16/2005 10:01:48 AM
Author: fire&ice
Clarification?

Don't look at me! I doubt the teachers can see who is actually saying it. I got in trouble in nursery school (age 4) for mouthing the words when the "violets" were singing and I was a "daffodil". (I do not recall the names of the flowers, just that I truly hadn't been singing.) I was enchanted to have learned that I could mouth words and appear to be speaking when I wasn't. So I did it while another group of flowers sang and was yelled at. I guess it stuck with me all these years because it was unjust. Like when I was fined 3 cents for failing to return a library book when I had returned it. I found it on the shelf, but the librarian thought I had put it there to avoid the fine. That was either fifth or sixth grade.

Deborah

 

[cinnabar]

Date: 9/16/2005 7:54:41 AM
Author: strmrdr

For all its faults the US is the greatest country that ever existed.

The leadership may take a wrong turn from time to time and she may get a black eye because of it but I wouldnt trade her for anywhere else.


I pledge allegance because of the freedoms I have and to honor those that have faught and died for those freedoms.

I firmly believe that real Americans will say it because they mean it and that the youngsters need to be taught what it means and why it is said. Not forced to say it.

With respect, I disagree that the US is the greatest country that ever existed. I admire your patriotism, however.

The rest of the world would like the US a great deal better if we heard less of this constant "we''re the greatest". Is it a testosterone thing? Women don''t seeem to do it nearly as much as men.

[steps back behind Kevlar partition]

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/16/2005 5:27:38 PM
Author: cinnabar

Date: 9/16/2005 7:54:41 AM

Author: strmrdr


For all its faults the US is the greatest country that ever existed.


The leadership may take a wrong turn from time to time and she may get a black eye because of it but I wouldnt trade her for anywhere else.



I pledge allegance because of the freedoms I have and to honor those that have faught and died for those freedoms.


I firmly believe that real Americans will say it because they mean it and that the youngsters need to be taught what it means and why it is said. Not forced to say it.

With respect, I disagree that the US is the greatest country that ever existed. I admire your patriotism, however.


The rest of the world would like the US a great deal better if we heard less of this constant 'we're the greatest'. Is it a testosterone thing? Women don't seeem to do it nearly as much as men.


[steps back behind Kevlar partition]

the rest of the world can kiss my #$%
hehehehe

The rest of the world sure does talk bad about the US but they sure do want our money.
re: Germany: politician bad mouthing the US then whining like babies when we were going to move our bases to Poland.
The US needs to end all aid and say the feed trough has ran dry we have our own to take care of.

 

[Rank Amateur]

"the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature''s God entitle them"

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,"


I mean, it''s no Treaty of Tripoli, but it sure reads like the USA was founded under God. One God.


That being said, let''s not make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/16/2005 11:22:57 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
That being said, let''s not make a mountain out of a molehill.

For once we agree. While part of me wants God out of the Pledge, I have to admit that I miss the Christmas Pageant we used to have in public school and singing, "Silent Night" with candles in an Independent (read: private) girls school. (It was not a religious school and the administration now chooses not to sing anything Christian.) Although I wasn''t even being brought up a Christian, I enjoyed it. So I know how people feel when they feel "new" people are coming in and upsetting some perfectly innocent things that they used to do.

I believe that having a Christian pageant in a public school was wrong, despite my nostagia. Still, there are other things that are more urgent than whether, "under God" is in the Pledge. At least in my opinion. Helping hurricane victims who need help now is just one of those things.

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/15/2005 12:26:30 PM
Author: yellowfan
My daughter's class cannot celebrate their american holidays due to offending any other children who have different customs and beliefs. So, I should ship my kid out of country to have a Halloween or Thanksgiving party??? I am fed up with my kid not having her traditions and doing what a american child should celebrating any holiday if they want to.....

This was not my experience in Connecticut (and my daughter was in elementary school just a few years ago). American holidays were all celebrated. Thanksgiving, Flag Day, and Veterans' Day all were celebrated: turkeys came home on Thanksgiving and feasts were enacted. Veterans in uniform came for the other holidays. There was a parade of kindergartners in costume through the entire school on Hallowe'en. It was only religious holidays that were not celebrated.

Although religious holidays were not celebrated, mothers came in to show classes the customs they observed in their homes. Religious customs were explained and children got to see traditional costumes and taste traditional foods from people of various religions and cultures. I remember specifically a Jewish mom making Chanukah a huge amount of fun and a Swedish family presenting Saint Lucia in a crown of candles one year.

I missed the Christmas pageant we used to have when I was in school (see other posting), but I do think that having that in a public school was wrong.

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 9/17/2005 12:03:36 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 9/16/2005 11:22:57 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
That being said, let''s not make a mountain out of a molehill.

For once we agree. While part of me wants God out of the Pledge, I have to admit that I miss the Christmas Pageant we used to have in public school and singing, ''Silent Night'' with candles in an Independent (read: private) girls school. (It was not a religious school and the administration now chooses not to sing anything Christian.) Although I wasn''t even being brought up a Christian, I enjoyed it. So I know how people feel when they feel ''new'' people are coming in and upsetting some perfectly innocent things that they used to do.

I believe that having a Christian pageant in a public school was wrong, despite my nostagia. Still, there are other things that are more urgent than whether, ''under God'' is in the Pledge. At least in my opinion. Helping hurricane victims who need help now is just one of those things.

Deborah

Well lets all sing kumbya!

The stars have aligned in some odd cosmic form.

Why is this such a big deal? The child is not forced to say it. If one has convictions, one should stand up to those. He/she can opt out of the words. How is this any different than someone saying a silent or out loud prayer if that is their conviction.

 

[MINE!!]

I think that it was passed that someone cannot be FORCED to say the pledge.. not that the pledge could not and should not be said. I find it a matter of respect. Repect for ones country, repect for a way of life... and a blantant excuse not to teach respect..

No one is forcing children to say 'under God' you can easily optout of saying it. Yet, I do believe that one should participate or stand for the pledge. Although Iam not canadian or french, should an anthem be played, I will stand in respect.. just as children should do in repsect for the country that provides them with the school that they attend.

 

[cinnabar]

Date: 9/17/2005 12:33:56 PM
Author: fire&ice

Why is this such a big deal? The child is not forced to say it. If one has convictions, one should stand up to those. He/she can opt out of the words. How is this any different than someone saying a silent or out loud prayer if that is their conviction.

It depends on how you define "force". We had school assemblies with prayers at my school, and as an athiest I felt very uncomfortable silently mouthing the prayers, but peer pressure (from the whole of society) made me attend the assemblies rather than go sit in the principal''s office as a "conscientious objecter". A child is not in a position to stand up for their - or more often their parents'' - convictions, in the face of a society that expects conformity.

I would have much preferred my school to have had secular assemblies, and for the children who wanted to pray to do so at their church.

One can choose to take an oath on the Bible in court (or on whatever book one considers holy), but there is also the choice to affirm if one has no religious beliefs. I would like more choices like that, with less pressure to select the religious option.

 

[MINE!!]

Cinnabar.. this was a public school in the United States in the past 10 years?

 

[cinnabar]

Date: 9/17/2005 1:21:50 PM
Author: MINE!!
Cinnabar.. this was a public school in the United States in the past 10 years?

No. I grew up in England, in the 1970s. What we call a "public school", you call a "private school", which confuses matters a little. I attended what you would call a public school.

However, the principle of not having to say "under God" applies equally well for American schoolchildren if they feel uncomfortable about it, IMO. Religion should not be part of education, unless the child attends a religion-run private school.

But that moves us into the whole creationism vs evolution in Science debate, which isn''t what this thread is about.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/17/2005 1:07:36 PM
Author: cinnabar
It depends on how you define 'force'. We had school assemblies with prayers at my school, and as an athiest I felt very uncomfortable silently mouthing the prayers, but peer pressure (from the whole of society) made me attend the assemblies rather than go sit in the principal's office as a 'conscientious objecter'. A child is not in a position to stand up for their - or more often their parents' - convictions, in the face of a society that expects conformity.

It is for this reason that I would prefer not to have "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Of course, I would also prefer not to have the Pledge of Allegiance said in school at all. As I have said before, my parents are Quakers. I am not a Quaker, but I, like them, do not want to pledge allegiance to a FLAG. My father, when he testifies in court, takes an "alternative" oath. Quakers do not believe it is right to swear on the Bible. My father says, "I will not swear, but I will affirm". (To the best of my knowledge, my mother has never testified in court!)

I love having people's right to religious freedom protected, as it is in the United States, but I do not like having it forced on anyone. As Storm said, a pledge (and, in my opinion, a prayer) should come from one's heart. Naturally, like Mine, I stand for the national anthems of other countries and when anyone asks the congregation to stand at a religious service at which I am in attendance.

Deborah

 

[Rank Amateur]

I had maybe 120 kids in my grade when I was a kid. I can remember specifically just one kid, Jennifer, who did not recite the pledge.

She was not an athiest. She was a Jehova''s Witness and there is some irony in the fact that she would not recite the pledge for religious reasons, i.e. her family would not pledge their allegiance to anything other than God. The Pledge was not religious enough for their tastes.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/17/2005 11:54:43 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
She was not an athiest. She was a Jehova's Witness and there is some irony in the fact that she would not recite the pledge for religious reasons, i.e. her family would not pledge their allegiance to anything other than God. The Pledge was not religious enough for their tastes.

I do not think it is accurate to say that the Pledge of Allegiance, "was not religious enough" for them. They did not want to swear allegiance to a flag; their allegiance was only to God. In other words, the Pledge asked them to "worship" someone or something other than God. Reciting the Pledge ran counter to the teachings of their religion ( as opposed to not being enough).

I mentioned that my father, a Quaker, takes an altenative oath when testifying in court. Jehovah's Witnesses also take that oath.

Some Jews and Protestants feel that the Catholic custom of asking for the intervention of saints is praying to false gods. Protestants and Jews pray directly to God; they do not ask for the intercession of saints. The refusal to pray to saints is based on their interpretation of the Ten Commandments which warns against (commands against) the worship of false idols.

Religious Jews do not wear religious symbols on their bodies or keep them in their homes for the same reason. They feel that one should not revere a sculpture or a statue. To Catholics (and especially to the Eastern Orthodox Catholics) statues and crosses are a reminder. They are appalled at the thought that others feel they "worship" these statues and pictures. My mother's former Greek Orthodox church is always filled with icons of every sort glittering everywhere while candle flames dance.

A Quaker meeting house, in contrast to a Greek Orthodox Church, is spare. There is no area higher than any other. The benches face each other because the Quakers believe that there is an Inner Light (which is God) in all people and that God speaks through people. The idea that all people are equal in God's presence is taken seriously. No one is dressed as a priest. No one stands in a higher area. Meetings are silent unless someone feels moved to speak. There is no "cross talk", no discussion or argument. People must meditate and allow time to pass after one person speaks before he speaks. The idea is to allow God to have a say in what people think by pausing to reflect. Even the most basic duties are rotated among the membership. Each week someone acts as, "greeter", welcoming people to the meeting house.

I really do believe that people should have the right to worship as they choose, but I treasure the state staying out of it.

Deborah

 

[MINE!!]

American School children are by no means forced to recite the pledge. But they are asked to respect the pledge. I am sorry that you were forced to.. but I feel this is a hazy comparison.

Date: 9/17/2005 1:31:19 PM
Author: cinnabar

Date: 9/17/2005 1:21:50 PM
Author: MINE!!
Cinnabar.. this was a public school in the United States in the past 10 years?

No. I grew up in England, in the 1970s. What we call a ''public school'', you call a ''private school'', which confuses matters a little. I attended what you would call a public school.

However, the principle of not having to say ''under God'' applies equally well for American schoolchildren if they feel uncomfortable about it, IMO. Religion should not be part of education, unless the child attends a religion-run private school.

But that moves us into the whole creationism vs evolution in Science debate, which isn''t what this thread is about.