Set on the ring, now need help choosing the diamond

[mech_IFR]

Hey guys,

Have been reading for a few days and am excited to build an e-ring for my special someone. I'd like to use Whiteflash and set the stone in their X-Prong Trellis (round) in platinum:




Now I need help choosing the round diamond. My total budget is $18k. Subtracting the ring cost, I'm left with around $16.7k for the stone. A few questions:
- What other costs should I be thinking about outside the ring and diamond?
- Neither of us know jewelry well, so we might not be able to fully appreciate an absolutely perfect diamond. Could you prosumers suggest some stones on Whiteflash you think may be appropriate?
- What other info can I provide to help you steer me in the right direction?

Thanks so much for the help. I'm amazed by the knowledge base contained on this site!

 

[Niel]

this would be my choice (look at the PS wire price )

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2787739.htm

an I is still considered near colorless, and you wouldnt have to worry about it being eye clean with the VS2 clarity. Also, there isnt anything to complain about with a ACA. If you can swing that extra 200 (not much in the real scheme of things, but you shouldnt go over budget if its a hard cap) I would do put it on hold asap, they could pull that and compare it with another one if you find it.

ETA also, consider you may have taxes depending on the state and whatnot

 

[04diamond<3]

Well, here's a beautiful stone:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2803942.htm

You'll want to consider insuring the ring as soon as you get it!!!

A smidge smaller, but it's a G:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2813921.htm

I love love love love this stone though it's a true H&A and an E and completely eye clean. Plus JA now has videos of their stones and with the H&A stones the IS image is already there and looks stunning! JA also offers a 5% discount for PS members. If you love it, PLEASE PUT IT ON HOLD ASAP:

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/1.57-carat-E-color-SI1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73644

 

[mech_IFR]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! Looking through them now!

I love love love love this stone though it's a true H&A and an E and completely eye clean. Plus JA now has videos of their stones and with the H&A stones the IS image is already there and looks stunning! JA also offers a 5% discount for PS members. If you love it, PLEASE PUT IT ON HOLD ASAP:
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/1.57-carat-E-color-SI1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73644

04diamond<3 - Why do you like this stone so much? Mostly color?

 

[04diamond<3]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! Looking through them now!

I love love love love this stone though it's a true H&A and an E and completely eye clean. Plus JA now has videos of their stones and with the H&A stones the IS image is already there and looks stunning! JA also offers a 5% discount for PS members. If you love it, PLEASE PUT IT ON HOLD ASAP:
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/1.57-carat-E-color-SI1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73644

04diamond<3 - Why do you like this stone so much? Mostly color?

because it's a true hearts and arrows stone that's completely colorless and eye clean! And the idealscope is just beautiful! really, put it on hold asap if you like it.(and for me personally, the video is mesmerizing!) You'd be surprised how fast they get snapped up by lurkers.

**edit** AND it scores a 1.0 on the HCA which is a big deal!!! It means this stone will perform beautifully!! (Better than 95% of all other diamonds out there!).

 

[Niel]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! Looking through them now!

I love love love love this stone though it's a true H&A and an E and completely eye clean. Plus JA now has videos of their stones and with the H&A stones the IS image is already there and looks stunning! JA also offers a 5% discount for PS members. If you love it, PLEASE PUT IT ON HOLD ASAP:
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/1.57-carat-E-color-SI1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73644

04diamond<3 - Why do you like this stone so much? Mostly color?

because it's a true hearts and arrows stone that's completely colorless and eye clean! And the idealscope is just beautiful! really, put it on hold asap if you like it.(and for me personally, the video is mesmerizing!) You'd be surprised how fast they get snapped up by lurkers.

Id personally prefer to 1, get my stone and setting at the same place, and 2, get a larger stone. Consider the fact that you'd have to pay to have it insured and shipped to someplace that can set it in your setting. If you can afford a near colorless 1.7 over a colorless 1.5, Id prefer to put my money in something noticeable (the .3mm will make ad difference if you think about the surface area) vs the minute detail of it being near colorless vs colorless. Thats just how i see the compromise of trying to get the best overall stone for the budget.

 

[mech_IFR]

Other than being an interesting pattern, does the H&A cut help the stone's brilliance? I'm trying to understand the value of a true H&A cut...

 

[04diamond<3]

Other than being an interesting pattern, does the H&A cut help the stone's brilliance? I'm trying to understand the value of a true H&A cut...

H&A is the best (or one of the best) cut stones in the market. Stones that are cut this way perform significantly better than others so yes, they cost more.

I would want to know what you want more. Size or quality? I know you said that you and your SO aren't diamond educated so wouldn't appreciate a high quality stone, but are you looking for a larger stone?

 

[04diamond<3]

Other than being an interesting pattern, does the H&A cut help the stone's brilliance? I'm trying to understand the value of a true H&A cut...

H&A is the best (or one of the best) cut stones in the market. Stones that are cut this way perform significantly better than others so yes, they cost more.

I would want to know what you want more. Size or quality? I know you said that you and your SO aren't diamond educated so wouldn't appreciate a high quality stone, but are you looking for a larger stone? How big is her finger? What exactly does she want?

 

[Niel]

Other than being an interesting pattern, does the H&A cut help the stone's brilliance? I'm trying to understand the value of a true H&A cut...

H&A is about the symmetry. you can still get a well cut quality stone that isnt an H&A, its not required.

This is nice if you're comfortable with a ja (most people who buy there stones out at like zales and such have stones around that color) Its an AGS 0( a 2.2 on the hca but that doesnt mean its bad, just means wed want to pull it to get an ideal scope

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/2.05-carat-J-color-VS2-clarity-sku-132717

The setting you like is pretty common, a repro of a tiffany setting. JA has one
http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/Engagement-Rings/Solitaire/Platinum-3.3mm-Cross-Prong-Solitaire-Engagement-Ring-item-2356

 

[mech_IFR]

I would want to know what you want more. Size or quality? I know you said that you and your SO aren't diamond educated so wouldn't appreciate a high quality stone, but are you looking for a larger stone? How big is her finger? What exactly does she want?

I'm not sure size is the main issue. As an engineer, I enjoy quality in design and build. Maybe I need to read up on the H&A cut to better appreciate it. On the hand, I don't have enough experience to know if a 1.7ct diamond looks substantially bigger on a finger than a 1.5ct. I should also head to a jeweler soon to get my head around how big/small some of these stones are.

 

[Niel]

[quote="04diamond
I would want to know what you want more. Size or quality? I know you said that you and your SO aren't diamond educated so wouldn't appreciate a high quality stone, but are you looking for a larger stone? How big is her finger? What exactly does she want?

I'm not sure size is the main issue. As an engineer, I enjoy quality in design and build. Maybe I need to read up on the H&A cut to better appreciate it. On the hand, I don't have enough experience to know if a 1.7ct diamond looks substantially bigger on a finger than a 1.5ct. I should also head to a jeweler soon to get my head around how big/small some of these stones are.[/quote]

just a simple area equation would show you the mm increase would have an effect on the size. Though youre right the larger the stone the more mm you need to have a visual impact.



[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-size-comparison.83517/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-size-comparison.83517/[/URL]

 

[04diamond<3]

I would want to know what you want more. Size or quality? I know you said that you and your SO aren't diamond educated so wouldn't appreciate a high quality stone, but are you looking for a larger stone? How big is her finger? What exactly does she want?

I'm not sure size is the main issue. As an engineer, I enjoy quality in design and build. Maybe I need to read up on the H&A cut to better appreciate it. On the hand, I don't have enough experience to know if a 1.7ct diamond looks substantially bigger on a finger than a 1.5ct. I should also head to a jeweler soon to get my head around how big/small some of these stones are.

I would take her to the jewelers and see what size you both like on her. The setting from JA is another good option, and that gives you the option to get the setting and stone from the same place.

** And if possible, ask to see a H&A. If not (since most jewelers don't have these stones), Good Old gold has a lot of informative videos showing the superiority of performance of the H&A stone compared to others. It is true that you can get a great stone with excellent symmetry that isn't labeled "hearts and arrows".

 

[Niel]

i really like that J, and i know you would see a difference in a .5 ct increase. It is a good idea to see them in person so you have realistic expectations of the size. Just remember, a well cut stone faces up whiter, so try and make sure you are looking at size, color, and AGS0 (or GIA triple EX if they dont have ags 0's) stones so you will be comparing what youre actually buying

 

[mech_IFR]

04diamond<3 - Any suggestions on an H&A from white flash?

Neilseel - Looking at that J. I'll go to a jeweler tomorrow to better understand sizing. I work right next to the diamond district in NYC.

 

[donnabrsd]

this would be my choice (look at the PS wire price )

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2787739.htm

an I is still considered near colorless, and you wouldnt have to worry about it being eye clean with the VS2 clarity. Also, there isnt anything to complain about with a ACA. If you can swing that extra 200 (not much in the real scheme of things, but you shouldnt go over budget if its a hard cap) I would do put it on hold asap, they could pull that and compare it with another one if you find it.

ETA also, consider you may have taxes depending on the state and whatnot

I recommend this one. I have seen it in person and It is beautiful!

 

[04diamond<3]

04diamond<3 - Any suggestions on an H&A from white flash?

Neilseel - Looking at that J. I'll go to a jeweler tomorrow to better understand sizing. I work right next to the diamond district in NYC.

Well...the one posted scored a 1.4 on the HCA so that's good...it looks like a beautiful stone!

 

[Niel]

04diamond<3 - Any suggestions on an H&A from white flash?

Neilseel - Looking at that J. I'll go to a jeweler tomorrow to better understand sizing. I work right next to the diamond district in NYC.

Well...the one posted scored a 1.4 on the HCA so that's good...it looks like a beautiful stone!

If you're even considering I'd ask them to put it on hold. Dont wanna someone to swoop in (you can hold up to three and its free)

 

[LetItShine]

If your taking your girlfriend shopping, I'd like to suggest that you two also compare color. It's a personal preference, but I personally wouldn't get a J color for an engagement ring. You will most likely see tint from the side. With THAT budget I don't think you should compromise that much on color. Again, personal preference At least compare first to determine how color sensitive you are.

 

[yssie]

Other than being an interesting pattern, does the H&A cut help the stone's brilliance? I'm trying to understand the value of a true H&A cut...

Quoting some posts by respected tradepeople. A variety of opinions, and a variety of people who agree on a surprising variety of details. And some snark and some humour and some controversy No particular order, just the handful I find first ones I find first. You'll find a lot more if you just do a google search for "H&A" or "hearts and arrows" and "pricescope"...


Article by Karl K "DO THE PAVILION MAINS DRIVE LIGHT RETURN IN THE MODERN ROUND BRILLIANT?"
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/do_pavilion_mains_drive_light_return_modern_round_brilliant

Two posts on the history of H&A

When looking at a current situation, one may judge it on its current merits, but true understanding can only come if one also knows the history leading to the current situation. This is good advice at all times, but it also applies to the understanding of H&A, and I think it also explains why some posters here have diametrically opposing views or opinions.

First, we need to go back to the origins of H&A, dating back to the early 1990's, with a suddenly exploding demand from the Japanese market. It could be that this sudden demand was a spin-off of the local promotion of the original Eightstar-brand, reality was that the diamond-market was faced with a sudden big demand (at high prices) for H&A.

Antwerp, as the diamond-center with the biggest tradition and history in diamond-cutting, this new demand had the biggest effect. The demand also met with a group of eager diamond-cutters, since they were suffering very much under the competitive pressure of new diamond-cutting-centers.

In the absence of cutting-tools, dedicated to cutting such precision, the cutters needed to turn to their knowhow to produce for the Japanese demand. It took these first H&A-cutters really extremely long to cut the first H&A's, but it also proved very profitable because the Japanese were paying huge premiums, also because of the very limited supply.

Unlike traditional requests to cutters (cut me a VG-VG, for instance), this demand was difficult for cutters since they were faced often with new customers, not understanding exactly what the boundaries were to what they called the desired H&A, and the Japanese dealers possibly not knowing themselves, since it is unclear whether the Japanese labs also graded H&A in the beginnings of H&A. This unclear demand (as to how far can we go) combined with the non-existence of specialized tools led to the cutters working very diligently on process.

The result was that these first H&A's probably for a long time were the very best ones ever cut. Todd Gray confirmed this years ago (I read it in 1999 on the old niceice-website), that the first H&A's he saw were A-grade in his terms, while he graded all H&A's in 1999 as B-grade.

Over time, cutters learned the boundaries of the Japanese H&A-demand. Grading-labs started grading H&A in Japan. Now, grading reports generally are considered as safeguarding the consumer, but the adverse effect of grading reports is that they create a minimum-level for a certain cut-category. In cut, as soon as cutters understand the minimum-level of a cut-grade, they can switch from cutting-for-quality to cutting-for-a-grade. This is a natural phenomenon, seen regularly in the past two decades with the launch of various cut-grading-systems by various labs.

At the same time, producers of cutting-tools (including myself in a previous job) developed special precision-tools, which made the production of H&A-grades easier. Production of H&A increased because of understanding looser standards and because of new tools and was partly exported to new and cheaper cutting-centers, gradually eliminating the original cutters of H&A, especially so when the Japanese market collapsed.

The above basically explains how the quality of the original H&A-stones gradually eroded to the minimum-level of the grade, set by Japanese labs.

Remember, none of the demand for these stones was based upon any science. At best, it was a spin-off of the demand for the original Eightstars, where the science was based only on the Firescope, a tool to assess contrast-brilliance and leakage.

On today's date, this scientific basis is still missing. Labs and individual scientists are still stuck in the assessment of brilliance, and the understanding of fire and scintillation is far from being finalized, as the recent discussion in this thread (https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fire-and-dispersion-techy-help-please.18987/page-5) for instance confirms.

In the meantime, HRD has also introduced a H&A-grade with a lot of documentary explanation, but it is still based upon the observation of the H&A-pattern only. Again, the minimum-level of the HRD-grade merely offers leeway to cutters.

Probably, in the same way, the PS-tutorial for H&A, based upon 'it is all in the hearts' has a similar adverse effect as a lab's cut-grade. I fully understand Brian Gavin's reasoning when presenting this (especially since the hearts-view allows better assessment of the optical symmetry), but setting the rule in stone has the same effect as the minimum-level of a cut-grade. Where the rule probably has merit when assessing a very tight production, it is also true that certain stones exhibit hearts while no arrows ('hearts only' exists, and was a secondary grade in the Japanese labs).

So, here we are, about 20 years of history of H&A and total confusion over definition, terminology and effect on observation. No wonder that everybody can be right when expressing completely opposite views.

When we started Infinity in 2001, I was influenced heavily by the comments of Todd Gray (NiceIce) about B- and A-quality in H&A, and there being no A-grade available anymore. So, I went back to how the original H&A's were cut and understood that the process of cutting was just as important as the tools-aspect. Over time, that process-part had been neglected and I relaunched it for our production. At the same time, I totally disregarded any minimum H&A-cut-grade, knowing that proper process and proper tools automatically lead to H&A, but most importantly to great looking stones.

According to me, the observation of better fire and scintillation in such precision-cut-stones is in the crispness of the stones, as can be observed in the simplified patterns of a H&A-viewer. Agreeing with me however involves rejecting ancient definitions of H&A, or at least understanding how standards and H&A-cut-grading did not help in describing cut-quality.

Live long,

Thank you, Sara, Andelain and Yssie for your interest in my small comment. This is not easy to explain, and involves an understanding of history, cutting-techniques and optics. This makes the explanation long and complicated, but I will try to be as clear as possible.

First, the history of H&A. The demand for H&A stems from the Japanese market, probably as a side-effect from the local Eightstar-company producing their product. Logically, the first cutters faced with this demand were the Antwerp-cutters, and they had to squeeze the most out of their talent to produce what the Japanese asked for. Because demand was new, hot and growing and the actual lab-grading was not close to the cutters, the first H&A-cutters took no risk in their approach and produced extremely symmetrical diamonds. Because of their super-symmetry, the patterns in these stones were also very crisp.

When the production increased, two Japanese labs set up a branch in Antwerp, which offered the cutters a faster lab-feedback (as opposed to customer-feedback) on their production. This allowed them to search the bottom-borderline where a stone would still get the H&A-grade while the cutter had more room to play. And thus, this was the start of the ever-returning evolution of safely working towards a high quality towards going for the bottom-borderline of a grade, which still brings the premium.

With H&A becoming popular in the US, in the absence of a lab grading H&A in the US, this evolved even further downwards, up to the point of the pictures still being defendable. Some cutters take this even one level further down by simply engraving 'H&A' on the girdle, because they say so, without offering any proof. It is because of this logical evolution that Todd Gray of NiceIce already at the beginning of this decade talked about A- and B-levels of H&A, claiming that there were hardly any A-level H&A's to find anymore.

This evolution downwards is most visible when examining the crispness of various H&A-patterns. Because of the specificity of our own production, I unfortunately cannot illustrate this with picture-examples, since I would be violating forum-rules. Sorry about that.

With knowledge about light-performance of diamonds evolving, it is slowly becoming clear what is the factual benefit of a H&A. The contrast-pattern of the arrows as such is the basis of scintillation. This was clear already for some time, but it was unclear how this worked exactly. The pattern needs to be symmetrical and nicely divided over the stone, and an arrows-pattern in a round happens to respond to this definition. In a round, I think that it is difficult to produce another contrast-pattern (not at all resembling arrows), but in another shape, other contrast-patterns are definitely possible.

The hearts-pattern makes it easier to judge the symmetry, but this still is not the full story.

Looking at various arrows-patterns, one can easily distinguish stones with a very crisp pattern, while in others the borderlines between white and red are relatively fuzzy. This is completely neglected in the traditional assessment of H&A, but it is important for the scintillation of the diamond. The fuzzy borders are caused by minutely small extra virtual facets on this location, a result of slightly less than optimal optical symmetry. These tiny extra virtual facets reduce the snappy on-off-effect of virtual facets when moving the stone, and it results in a clear difference in observed scintillation. At the same time, the tiny virtual facets do not contribute to the observation of fire.

As such, I believe that the crispness of the contrast-pattern is the most important aspect, and less important than the historical rules about the shaping of the pattern. This does not mean however that the historical rules have to be discarded, since a slightly different pattern may have other effects on scintillation.

I hope that this was somewhat clear.

Live long,

2011 [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/no-official-hearts-arrows-criteria-lets-fix-that.158028/#post-2873985?hilit=hearts#p2873985']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/no-official-hearts-arrows-criteria-lets-fix-that.158028/#post-2873985?hilit=hearts#p2873985[/URL]

Hearts and Arrows is what I have always called a wonderful marketing accident, but of very little importance to diamond quality or grading. No doubt, many sellers using this marketing approach would strongly disagree and folks who have bought into H&A will be annoyed at my apparent lack of respect for the "special look" or "special quality" these stones have. I don't believe these H&A stones have a better look to them than some other, less than H&A stones, but I do agree that the H&A effect does make a diamond look a particular way. If you like that look above all others, then, of course, H&A works for you and that's perfectly fine. A diamond displaying perfected H&A is one that has had extra time and labor applied to it to perfect the pattern and also will result in a highly symmetric stone in most every case. The decision of whether this extra cost makes any difference to the end-user is subjective.

On the other hand, a really well written explanation of H&A, how it is created, what it does, what it implies about quality, benefits, etc would not be unwelcome. People do want to understand what it means, but writing a paper in an unbiased manner would diminish the relative importance of the H&A effect. When used as a marketing tool, the positives are pushed and the other side of the issue is left out to a great extent. Do you want to promote H&A or do you want to present the facts and let readers decide? That is an important issue that the writer must resolve first. There will be pressure from those who market H&A to do it their way and having credibility in the face of their criticism will be difficult for most writers. Remember, the marketers who promote H&A generally have stellar reputations and sell very fine products. They will potentially look like the credible voices in such a situation and the writer will look more like a loser who is trying to ruin the honest marketing of very successful firms. Who will the public believe?

On the warranty or guarantee side side of this situation, I'd say that H&A is definitely forever and that every vendor on Pricescope offering such a diamond stands fully behind their claim forever. There is no need for more legal paperwork when using a well respected source. H&A has no long term effect on the value of a diamond and whatever return policy in effect at the time of purchase should be sufficient for any buyer. If a return policy does not warrant the quality being as stated, then it is not a good policy at all. I think that part of the issue is a non-starter.

Thanks for starting this topic. I'm always amazed at the interest raised by H&A discussions.

David,

As a cutter of diamonds, that are produced not with the intention of H&A, but where the pattern is a natural evolution of my specific process, I can relate to what you are saying.

H&A can be compared to whipped cream. In the dish that I prepare, I need a specific quality of whipped cream to obtain the taste that I desire. Then again, I do not like it if the dish is refered to as whipped cream, as if that were the only distinguisher.

And as whipped cream is a very wide definition, I even do not like the comparison to other dishes, also labeled as whipped creams, as if the fact that they also have whipped cream as an ingredient puts them at the same level as my dish.

In that sense, I agree that H&A does not offer any better quality, just like whipped cream as such says nothing about the dish. But if the whipped cream of a very high quality is used in a great combination of ingredients, leading to a superior dish, the whipped cream becomes essential again. And then, you refuting the quality-value of H&A is like throwing away the baby with the bathwater.

Briefly, I think that the term 'H&A' is overused, badly defined and abused to such an extent that we would do better replacing it with something else. Then again, at that point in time, the interests of various parties kick in again, and as you described, it will be close to impossible to get to a definition, accepted by all parties.

I hope that this did not sound too confusing.

Live long,

2013 [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/who-truly-understands-and-can-explain-optical-symmetry.184311/#post-3355889#p3355889']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/who-truly-understands-and-can-explain-optical-symmetry.184311/#post-3355889#p3355889[/URL]

There are 2 different but related things being discussed here:
optical symmetry and h&a.
h&a images is one way of showing optical symmetry with arbitrary standards.
Take 3 diamonds with the same level of optical symmetry, one 77% lowers, one 60% lowers, and one 85% lowers.
All 3 have the same level of optical symmetry but only the 77% lowers would form the perfect hearts of h&a.
Typically RBs with lowers from 74%-75% to 80%-81% can be considered h&a when optical symmetry is high depending on who you ask.
That does not mean diamonds outside that range(or even other shapes) can not have high optical symmetry.

One of the reasons for wanting optical symmetry is that this will result in the largest virtual facets for the diamond of its size and thus more visual scintillation events.

If you were to look at the wire frame of virtual facets posted above and observe how it changed through 40 degrees if tilt from side to side and if you had a LONG TIME to count and could see minute facets you would see that there are close to 200,000 scintillation events as the stone rotates.

Of these, in say a 1 carat stone that is cut to Hearts and Arrows standards eight of those would be Large scintillation events, there will be many more Medium events, many times more Small to Very Small events, and while there are perhaps somewhere in the neighborhood of eight to ten thousand visual optical events the vast majority are not perceivable to the unaided human eye. In a half carat stone there might actually be no large events and in a two carat stone there may be eight Very Large events. That is one of the reasons that the eye loves larger stones, they just have more discernible scintillation events.

With precisely cut stones that have top of the line optical symmetry the resultant events are crisper and larger and just look better than the smaller slightly fuzzier events of stones that might actually have the coveted AGS 0 cut grade, but just barely.

So, I would respectfully disagree with the comment that what GIA does is good enough. It is not, and in fact their papers reward diamonds that are "good enough" by calling them excellent, making it impossible for those who strive for the best to make a good decision even of which stones to take a look at just by the paper alone.

There are many many companies figuring out how to cut Hearts and Arrows "good enough" to get the GIA Excellent and AGS triple 0 cut grade by the skin of their teeth, there are only a few that cut to the top of the AGS triple 0 cut grade envelope. For some people, only those top of the grade diamonds are "good enough."

Wink

2010 [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-vs-non-h-a-is-there-a-visual-difference.152720/#post-2779040?hilit=hearts#p2779040']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-vs-non-h-a-is-there-a-visual-difference.152720/#post-2779040?hilit=hearts#p2779040[/URL]

Hi, I am hoping it is OK for interested consumers to post questions?

In RT, it is often debated if a H&A will look visibly different than a non H&A with nice numbers, good IS image, etc. I think discussion of this topic could be helpful and interesting if you experts have the time thank you

It is an excellent and often debated question SLG.

My take is that in a blind pepsi line up- if a diamond has very good optical symmetry then no one will be able to tell the difference between it and a H&A's with the same proportions etc. (without blind fold )

I have challenged several H&A's vendors to this test and they have ignored or declined.


However if a diamond is on the edge of being a little steep deep, then H&A's symmetry is a good safe indication that there will not be parts of the stone that will not sparkle enough.

Edit - consider 2 fine Quartz watches - both have the exact same accuracy, but one costs 5 times more.
And its all a mind game

Garry,
For the sake of completeness, could you give your definition of what is H&A for you, since you talking about a pepsi-test between a diamond with very good optical symmetry and a H&A sounds very confusing to me.

I am also sorry to see your derogatory last remark, making the comparison with quartz-watches. In how far does the remark of a 5x-cost refer to H&A-diamonds? Shame on you.

Live long,

Excellent question.

I think I would be happy with the HRD system as a bench mark for H&A's - from what I have read about it Paul - but I have no real experiance with their system.

Do not be upset by my quartz movement analogy.
A $2,000 steel watch vs one for $5 from the garage is a 400 times difference. My point is there is a "mind difference" not a timie keeping difference.
Another analogy is IF vs SI1 where a 4x difference is possible and no one can see the difference with the naked eye.

2008 thread discussing hearts patterns - read this: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/true-hearts-is-this-stone-a-true-heart.90360/?hilit=hearts']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/true-hearts-is-this-stone-a-true-heart.90360/?hilit=hearts[/URL]


2008 [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ideal-vs-superideal.81389/?hilit=hearts']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ideal-vs-superideal.81389/?hilit=hearts[/URL]

by Wink:

Date: 3/23/2008 4:51:22 PM
Author: DiaGem
I can see and understand some specialized cutters are able to identify their work! Only natural..., no?

I know I can..., but I only cut fancy shapes...

But I seriously doubt that regular consumers will be able to pick a SuperIdeal out of a bunch of Ideal cut rounds with out any tools or pro assistance..., especially based on leakage!


I guess the next question should be:


Very Good Polish and Symmetry vs. Excellent Polish and Symmetry in STEPCUTS..., what is the difference and can people identify the difference with out any helping tools???


Lets hear some opinions on this subject....

Different topic altogether, belongs in its own thread.

RE cutting in rounds: I have clients who CAN see the difference that are totally untrained, they just perceive the difference even if they do not know why. A big part of my job is to help them understand the why. I will often show two or three similar sized gems to my clients and ask them what they like and why, then I explain to them what they are seeing. Way more often than not they pick the best cut stone and then are very happy to learn why they made the choice that they did.

Wink

P.S. As I run out of the "lesser" cuts this is getting more and more difficult to do, as I am not replacing them in my inventory.

There are several levels of optical symmetry and it depends on which you are talking about:
1: H&A
2: near-h&a say with say one small heart but perfect face up optical symmetry.
3: face up optical symmetry
4: mildly face up unsymmetrical
5: face up unsymmetrical
6: very face up unsymmetrical

The rankings below are my personal opinion.

Then there are several things that need to be looked at:
A: contrast patterns - 1,2,3 will have very similar contrast patterns
B: overall light return - any of them could have as much light return as another in good lighting, in bad or marginal lighting I believe h&a can give a slight advantage.
C: fire - maybe a mild advantage to 1,2,3
D: scintillation - maybe a mild advantage to 1 and 6 (6 in a large enough diamond).
E: ratio of effective vs ineffective virtual facets across several lighting conditions. - advantage 1,2,3 in descending order.

Edit
C: fire - maybe a mild advantage to 1,2,3,4

Minor optical symmetry variations have a very min. effect on fire potential.

A long but perhaps interesting thread on lab grading titled "Grading systems and 'gaming' them: An eternal story?":
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/grading-systems-and-gaming-them-an-eternal-story.157859/page-2?hilit=hearts']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/grading-systems-and-gaming-them-an-eternal-story.157859/page-2?hilit=hearts[/URL]

 

[mech_IFR]

If you're even considering I'd ask them to put it on hold. Dont wanna someone to swoop in (you can hold up to three and its free)

Put this on hold for the time being.

tons of great info

Wow! Great info. Will read, re-read and dig some more via google. Thanks guys!

 

[stargurl78]

I love love love love this stone though it's a true H&A and an E and completely eye clean. Plus JA now has videos of their stones and with the H&A stones the IS image is already there and looks stunning! JA also offers a 5% discount for PS members. If you love it, PLEASE PUT IT ON HOLD ASAP:

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/1.57-carat-E-color-SI1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73644

What a gorgeous stone I just emailed the link to my husband and told him that if he was considering buying me a new diamond for our 2 year anniversary in June, he should keep this one in mind You should see the email I got in response

 

[mech_IFR]

So the budget for the diamond has been increased from $16.7 to $18.7. Could you guys suggest a stone from WF along the same lines as the this one I recently put on hold?
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2787739.htm

Would be nice to be close to 1.75ct.

 

[Christina...]

I just wanted to mention that though the hca is an important and useful tool it does have its limitations. Its designed to help consumers weed through long virtual lists. Its a rejection tool not a selection tool. Finding a stone that scores well (under 2 in most cases) does not guaruntee that the stone will perform beautifully, it simply means that the stone warrants further investigation, magnified images, idealscope, aset, sarin, etc. Its also a pass/fail system, a score of .8 doesn't imply a better perforformer than a 2.

Great info Yssie! You're so great at pulling up important information from past discussions!

 

[04diamond<3]

I love love love love this stone though it's a true H&A and an E and completely eye clean. Plus JA now has videos of their stones and with the H&A stones the IS image is already there and looks stunning! JA also offers a 5% discount for PS members. If you love it, PLEASE PUT IT ON HOLD ASAP:

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/Round-cut/1.57-carat-E-color-SI1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-73644

What a gorgeous stone I just emailed the link to my husband and told him that if he was considering buying me a new diamond for our 2 year anniversary in June, he should keep this one in mind You should see the email I got in response

HAHAHA! Probably the same kind I'd get from DH! It is an absolutely stunning stone, but OP is leaning towards something bigger, which I totally understand! I doubt this will still be around once I get done with school, and if it's not, I know who to bug to see what will be gorgeous pictures!!