Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring...

[FrekeChild]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

Well, I'm not going to try to talk you into it, because I keep holding out hope that I could somehow snag it, but I doubt it'll last that long! But I will explain why it's a good deal.

It's 7.69 x 7.60, so it faces up about the same size as a 1.6ct round diamond. This is a factor of sapphire being more dense than diamond. HOWEVER, if you put a 1.6ct diamond next to this sapphire, the diamond will look bigger because it reflects white light back to the eye, and blue sapphire will absorb more of that light; this is just a function of color and light.

Speaking to the value, this stone was originally purchased for $4,480 so that's $2,000/carat
Buying secondhand, priced at $2,900 is $1,294/carat.

So, straight up, it's a savings of $1,500, and it's 36% off of retail price. But you're also getting an unheated medium blue sapphire for $1,300/carat, which is key, and let me explain why.

Sapphires are regularly heated, and that's an common, acceptable treatment. Heating can improve color, clarity, and zoning. Around 95% of sapphires on the market are heated. So, unheated sapphires make up about 5%, which is why, when you find them, the price goes through the roof.

This price discrepancy can be seen here, looking at a few comparables:

http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html
995: $3,185, weighs 1.88cts, heated, 7.5mm, $1,694/carat
1121: $2,980, weighs 1.53cts, unheated, 6.7mm, $1,947/carat
1006: $3,290, weighs 2.35cts, heated, 7.8mm, $1,400/carat

All of the above stones are more expensive than the loupetroop stone, per carat and total price. They are precision cut, so that's a point in their favor.

So, the loupetroop sapphire is an exceptional deal - finding an AGL certified unheated sapphire for $1,300 per carat in this day and age, where gemstone engagement rings (blue sapphires being the front runner) are becoming more and more popular, especially since the royal engagement...well, if I had the funds, I would have bought it myself already.

ETA: You might ask the seller if there is any leeway in the price. You never know!

 

[chrono]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

Well, I'm not going to try to talk you into it, because I keep holding out hope that I could somehow snag it, but I doubt it'll last that long! But I will explain why it's a good deal.

It's 7.69 x 7.60, so it faces up about the same size as a 1.6ct round diamond. This is a factor of sapphire being more dense than diamond. HOWEVER, if you put a 1.6ct diamond next to this sapphire, the diamond will look bigger because it reflects white light back to the eye, and blue sapphire will absorb more of that light; this is just a function of color and light.

Speaking to the value, this stone was originally purchased for $4,480 so that's $2,000/carat
Buying secondhand, priced at $2,900 is $1,294/carat.

So, straight up, it's a savings of $1,500, and it's 36% off of retail price. But you're also getting an unheated medium blue sapphire for $1,300/carat, which is key, and let me explain why.

Sapphires are regularly heated, and that's an common, acceptable treatment. Heating can improve color, clarity, and zoning. Around 95% of sapphires on the market are heated. So, unheated sapphires make up about 5%, which is why, when you find them, the price goes through the roof.

This price discrepancy can be seen here, looking at a few comparables:

http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html
995: $3,185, weighs 1.88cts, heated, 7.5mm, $1,694/carat
1121: $2,980, weighs 1.53cts, unheated, 6.7mm, $1,947/carat
1006: $3,290, weighs 2.35cts, heated, 7.8mm, $1,400/carat

All of the above stones are more expensive than the loupetroop stone, per carat and total price. They are precision cut, so that's a point in their favor.

So, the loupetroop sapphire is an exceptional deal - finding an AGL certified unheated sapphire for $1,300 per carat in this day and age, where gemstone engagement rings (blue sapphires being the front runner) are becoming more and more popular, especially since the royal engagement...well, if I had the funds, I would have bought it myself already.

ETA: You might ask the seller if there is any leeway in the price. You never know!

+1. Freke saved me the trouble of typing out everything. Alas, I cannot buy this sapphire anymore because I am finally setting my FCDs.

 

[boerumbiddy]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

The more I look at that Loupetroop sapphire, the more I am tempted to hock the family silver and buy it myself. And I am a ruby person......

 

[pregcurious]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

The settings from Sholdt and Maevona are all modern. Are you sure she wants modern? In your first post, you mention that she wants a center stone with 2 side stones. That sounds like a _classic_ three stone ring like this:

 

[reicaden]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

The settings from Sholdt and Maevona are all modern. Are you sure she wants modern? In your first post, you mention that she wants a center stone with 2 side stones. That sounds like a _classic_ three stone ring like this:

I think she'd like modern, as she always leans that way for decorating and faux jewelry. I've never seen her like any "vintage" or "antique" type items either in the home or in jewelry/on models. I figure its a safe bet in my book. Classic might be okay too, but I dont know, I think she'll lean towards something unique vs something classic if she has to choose.

http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html
995: $3,185, weighs 1.88cts, heated, 7.5mm, $1,694/carat
1121: $2,980, weighs 1.53cts, unheated, 6.7mm, $1,947/carat
1006: $3,290, weighs 2.35cts, heated, 7.8mm, $1,400/carat

Hmmm, now I am really confused, lol.

Okay, so measuring price by carat is a great idea, so I'll go with that to explain my confusion (I'm sure there is a good reason for the pricing differences, but some I cant figure out).

For example, on that same site, sapphire number; sapphire_blue_1073
It's a Mixed cut sapphire and 1.73 ct. (it is heated, granted). its $1190 or $687/carat.

And Sapphire number: sapphire_blue_1130
Its a modified brilliant round cut? (its non heated i believe) and its 1.63 Ct at $1630 or $1000/carat

There is a very nice one: sapphire_blue_1115 that is 1.33 ct at $1130 which is a great price, it is heated, but is clear and a nice blue it seems.

This last one here has me totally confused. It's Unheated. It's the same size as the one on Loupetroop, it's described as a great gem and it looks nice. It's $700 cheaper. Is it the cut on this one? :Sapphire Modified "Scissors" Cut Cushion
Weight: 2.32 cts
Measurements: 7.9x6.8 mm
Clarity: VVS
Origin: Sri Lanka
Enhancements: None
Price: $ 2320.00
Order/Stock No.: sapphire_blue_947
Description: Gorgeous Ceylon blue gem. Clean, well cut, and brilliant to the max.
AGL Certified untreated. (Cut by Andrew Gulij)

But then the ones FrekeChild linked are much more expensive, sometimes with the same cuts as others. But I dont know why there is a difference in price aside from the type of cut? or the shade of blue I think? Some look so similar to eachother though that it makes me afraid that maybe a nicely cut but slightly smaller stone that is sometimes more expensive, may be a better choice than a larger stone that is "mixed cut" like the nice one on Loupetroop. (does "mixed cut" even matter much?).

I guess that is my question after looking at all these gorgeous stones that Frekechild was nice enough to link, what commands the premium for some stones over other stones when they are in some cases similar. Or rather, without seeing the gems side by side, I don't know how to know which stone is a "good deal" and which is "over priced" since some of them seem to be similar in color and cut, but vary in price.

Thank you for the explanation Frekechild! I'm sorry I'm still a bit confused by the whole thing. Do you think that the fact that the gem on loupetroop is "mixed cut" is bad? Would something like this one:

Sapphire Round Modified "Galaxy" Cut
Weight: 2.11cts
Measurements: 7mm, depth 5.4mm
Clarity: VVS-VS
Origin: Sri Lanka
Enhancements: Heat only
Price: $ 2920.00
Order/Stock No.: sapphire_blue_1156
Description: AGL lab report included. Very sparkly and flashy, medium blue color. Excellent cutting and appears eye clean. Closest Pantone Color Card: mix between 2728C & 2738C
(Cut by Andrew Gulij)

Have more sparkle for the same price, even if its a tad bit smaller and heated?

Thank you Chrono and Frekechild and everyone who has participated in the thread. I appreciate all the info! It's like getting a semester in gem master cutting in a few days from experts, so you can imagine it's a lot to take in but I'm learning a lot and I hope all this learning leads to a gem that I feel will be the best damn gem I could get for the money

P.S. - Sorry for all the questions!

 

[reicaden]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring



This is a close up of the gem on LoupeTroop by the way



I cant tell if those points are issues or if its just the way light reflects/refracts in the photo.

Is it because of the type of cut? The cut looks fine... it doesnt look as symmetrical as I would expect, but I dont know if symmetrical is common.... is a brilliant round cut or a "galaxy" or "Roulette" cut symmetrical? Does symmetry even help with light reflection? hmmm.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

Well, to address your main concern, the reason I chose the sapphires I did, was choosing by color. The stones I chose are the most similar in even coloring, size and saturation to the loupetroop stone.

Lets take a couple seconds to talk about buying a colored stone (ANY colored stone).

Here are the criteria you should use to judge colored stones, in no particular order:
color
clarity
carat
cut
shape
treatment

For blue sapphires:
color
Paramount to pricing. There is a vast difference between medium/strong/vivid saturation. I will include a graphic that gives you a better idea of saturation in blues. Hints of green, purple and gray will change the price, we call these modifiers.
Zoning is important here - with the way the crystals grow, there can be patches or stripes of more vibrant color, and less vibrant color. Sometimes they mix well (or don't seem to exist) and it's not a strike against a stone. Other times, it can make a stone look like a tiger or a dalmatian and it's very distracting.
clarity
Now, sapphires are a Type 2 stone, so inclusions are common, so long as the stone is eyeclean, it's acceptable. Inclusions themselves aren't a bad thing- they are proof that it is heated, unheated, and what types of treatment it has. They can also be evidence of location.
carat
The larger a stone gets, the more expensive it will be, depending on color.
cut
This varies from person to person. If a stone is a vivid medium blue, one person might forgive cut flaws, such as windows, bow ties, extinction, etc. Another person might not. Most of the more experienced people here will tell you that everyone has a different tolerance, but that if the color is perfect, odds are that a cut flaw will be forgiven.
shape
This is a personal preference. Cushions and ovals are most common for sapphires. Rounds, and fancy shapes are less common. Rounds carry a bit of a premium - they are the most highly sought after/popular.
treatment
95% of sapphires are heated or more. 5% are unheated and untreated in any way. So, untreated comes with a premium.

My analysis of the Loupetroop stone:
Color: I'd say this is medium-strong saturation, maybe the slightest hint of a green modifier, but that could be due to photography.
Clarity: Eyeclean, according to Litnon they rated it a VVS, which is very good for a sapphire.
Carat: It's over 2cts. In all stones, including diamonds, there are premiums as you hit certain carat weights.
Cut: the culet is a little bit off center, and symmetry is a bit off, but otherwise I see no problems. I would say that this is a pretty good non-precision cut stone.
Shape: Round.
Treatment: It's of the top 5%

As far as the stones that you mentioned, a quicker analysis:
1073, 1.73 ct, heated, $1190 or $687/carat
Oval, looks to have splotchy coloring in the hand shot. Perhaps some zoning, definitely does not have even coloring, with light spots and darker spots. This blue is lighter and less saturated.

1130, 1.63 Ct. unheated at $1630 or $1000/carat
This stone looks to have a slight greenish mod, but it has uneven coloring as well, it is also lighter and less saturated.

1115, 1.33 ct, heated, at $1130
This is a darker blue sapphire that has a gray cast to it. the coloring is uneven, with it appearing in the handshot as though it is lighter around the edges than in the center. In the studio shot, it looks like it has some zoning, the color is not super even. this is sale pending btw.

947, 2.32ct, unheated, $2,320
This is a lighter gray-blue sapphire.It looks like it is more saturated along the short ends, and less saturated in the middle, so it also has uneven coloring.


The stones I mentioned last night:

995: $3,185, weighs 1.88cts, heated, 7.5mm, $1,694/carat
Medium-strong saturation, touch of violet, hint of gray, slightly uneven coloring.

1121: $2,980, weighs 1.53cts, unheated, 6.7mm, $1,947/carat
Medium saturation, hint of violet, looks very evenly colored.

1006: $3,290, weighs 2.35cts, heated, 7.8mm, $1,400/carat
Medium saturation, touch of violet and gray, very evenly colored.


NOTE: It's very hard to compare the loupetroop stone to the stones whose pictures were taken under studio conditions. The above is an approximation of what I see, and what I know of NKOTB's photography skillz.

Here are pictures. Those are typically much easier to compare than words. Especially this late at night.

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

Oh, and I don't see anything weird or any inclusions - looks like it's probably a facet reflecting light. But always ask the seller if you have questions!

 

[pregcurious]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html
995: $3,185, weighs 1.88cts, heated, 7.5mm, $1,694/carat
1121: $2,980, weighs 1.53cts, unheated, 6.7mm, $1,947/carat
1006: $3,290, weighs 2.35cts, heated, 7.8mm, $1,400/carat

Hmmm, now I am really confused, lol.

Okay, so measuring price by carat is a great idea, so I'll go with that to explain my confusion (I'm sure there is a good reason for the pricing differences, but some I cant figure out).

I agree with Freke, but just wanted to give you another opinion: Here's my simplified opinion about these three prices. Let's use the 1st one as a "reference". I think prices differ based on 1) color (vivid blue with a slight purple secondary is considered ideal by the trade; color shifters are a different animal), 2) treatment (unheated is more than heated), and 3) size (price per carat jumps up with size).

1) 995: This one is heated and appears to have very good color, and is 1.88 cts. That's baseline.
2) 1121: This one is more more carat than #1 mostly because it is unheated, even though it is smaller in size. By "periwinkle", I think Gemfix is saying it has a slight purple secondary color, which means it might be slightly more desirable in color (by the trade) than 995, but I would have to see them in person. You can also ask Andrew in an email.
3) 1006: This one is the least expensive because it is in a different category than the other two. It is a color shifter; it shifts in color between a blue and a violet. When you buy a sapphire, make sure to look at it under different light sources to see if it shifts in color. Some people like the color shift, and others do not. It is also heated, which makes it less than #2. This one also appears to have the most even color from edge to edge of the 3.

In general, a gem is considered a color shifter if it changes between 2 colors that are next to each other on the color wheel. It is considered a color changer if it changes in color in a way that is more drastic (skipping a color the color wheel).

4) As for the Loupe Troop stone, it is blue with a green secondary color (e.g. it leans more towards turquoise than the GemFix stones.) By the trade and by price, this is a less desirable color than #1 and #2. In the LT description, the owner says they are replacing it with a stone that has more purple (which has a higher value if everything else is the same). Some people like this color better than the more "trade ideal" blue with purple secondary, and those people can save money by buying this color.

Note: In terms of color, I think that the cushion below has the most "trade" ideal color of all the stones available at GemFix that have the size you want. If you look at the bigger version of the picture in the handshot, the blue pops out at you because it is really saturated in color. If it had a slight purple to it, it would be worth more. If you're open to a cushion cut, I would consider this one:

Sapphire Cushion Modified Mixed Cut
Weight: 1.81cts
Measurements: 7.3x6.3mm, depth 4.6mm
Clarity: VVS
Origin: Sri Lanka
Enhancements: Heat only
Price: $ 3620.00
Order/Stock No.: sapphire_blue_1117



Now, you can compare this to the cushion you picked (947). 947 looks much less saturated (than 1117), like someone watered down the blue. In addition, it has more gray, like someone added gray paint after they watered down the blue paint, making the blue that is there look more steely:

Try to compare the stones by how they look in both the main picture and the hand shot. Also, try to see as many sapphires in person as you can, at high end stores in your area. It's like buying a car; taking them for a test drive brings to life the comments in written reviews. Even if you can't see the GemFix ones in person, you will start developing a taste for what you like about sapphires if you see them in person.

The slight variations in color, cut, and silkiness will start making sense to you. The stones you picked out tend to look less saturated than the ones Freke picked out. By less saturated, I mean that if you were take blue paint, you would water it down to look less intense.

 

[reicaden]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

For blue sapphires:
color
Paramount to pricing. There is a vast difference between medium/strong/vivid saturation. I will include a graphic that gives you a better idea of saturation in blues. Hints of green, purple and gray will change the price, we call these modifiers.
Zoning is important here - with the way the crystals grow, there can be patches or stripes of more vibrant color, and less vibrant color. Sometimes they mix well (or don't seem to exist) and it's not a strike against a stone. Other times, it can make a stone look like a tiger or a dalmatian and it's very distracting.
clarity
Now, sapphires are a Type 2 stone, so inclusions are common, so long as the stone is eyeclean, it's acceptable. Inclusions themselves aren't a bad thing- they are proof that it is heated, unheated, and what types of treatment it has. They can also be evidence of location.
carat
The larger a stone gets, the more expensive it will be, depending on color.
cut
This varies from person to person. If a stone is a vivid medium blue, one person might forgive cut flaws, such as windows, bow ties, extinction, etc. Another person might not. Most of the more experienced people here will tell you that everyone has a different tolerance, but that if the color is perfect, odds are that a cut flaw will be forgiven.
shape
This is a personal preference. Cushions and ovals are most common for sapphires. Rounds, and fancy shapes are less common. Rounds carry a bit of a premium - they are the most highly sought after/popular.
treatment
95% of sapphires are heated or more. 5% are unheated and untreated in any way. So, untreated comes with a premium.

My analysis of the Loupetroop stone:
Color: I'd say this is medium-strong saturation, maybe the slightest hint of a green modifier, but that could be due to photography.
Clarity: Eyeclean, according to Litnon they rated it a VVS, which is very good for a sapphire.
Carat: It's over 2cts. In all stones, including diamonds, there are premiums as you hit certain carat weights.
Cut: the culet is a little bit off center, and symmetry is a bit off, but otherwise I see no problems. I would say that this is a pretty good non-precision cut stone.
Shape: Round.
Treatment: It's of the top 5%

Thank you Freke, I appreciate you taking the time to explain the details. It all makes more sense now, although i think your level of experience helps you pick up those details so much more than I can. When you point them out though, I look at the stone and it's like "ohhh yea, I do see that".

Sadly we won't get to argue about that loupetroop gem any longer as it seems it has been sold according to the seller. But after reading all this information and seeing the comparison images side by side, I do feel that it may have been a missed opportunity for me.

I'll keep searching, plenty of sapphires in the ocean (or is that fish?), I'm sure another nice one will turn up. I do agree that I should head out and check local sapphires to get a feel for their color and cuts. It'll help me then see online and identify traits better.

Based on your chart, I think a "Vivid Light" would be a nice color. I'll search around.

Now, you can compare this to the cushion you picked (947). 947 looks much less saturated (than 1117), like someone watered down the blue.

When you put them side by side, its an amazing difference. It is much more grey almost whitish. I'll need to see more in person first to make a good decision I believe. Thats why its so cheap as such a high carat weight... its color is meh.

Thank you for all your information Everyone has been very helpful and I feel I can now go out and make a good decision. Sadly the loupe troop gem does seem to have been a great catch for this type of use (Ering) but alas, my lag time to learn cost me a possibly nice gem.

I'll try and snag the next one that shows up

Thank you everyone!

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

Well, can't say I'm too surprised. We've been talking enough about it that someone was bound to grab it out from under you! We've had some of our most prolific posters telling you that it was a great deal! Lurkers tend to come out of the woodwork and snatch things up when that happens.

But don't worry, we can always help you find something else!

ETA: Not sure if this is still for sale, but it might be worth inquiring. I don't know if you'd be ok with an oval, since we've mostly been dealing with rounds here, but I wanted to point it out to you anyway!

http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-colored-gemstone/2-dot-56ct-agl-unheated-ceylon-sapphire

 

[Niel]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

so i know this is more vintage but has that leaf motif and is stunning. very unique.

http://loupetroop.com/listings/rings/snqueen-setting-sz-5-dot-75

i don't know what kind of blue sapphire you could get for the remaining though

i saw a lovely pink sapphire of richard homers thou that would probably fit....i know i knw not the same but still

 

[reicaden]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

ETA: Not sure if this is still for sale, but it might be worth inquiring. I don't know if you'd be ok with an oval, since we've mostly been dealing with rounds here, but I wanted to point it out to you anyway!

http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-colored-gemstone/2-dot-56ct-agl-unheated-ceylon-sapphire

I sent her a message a few days ago, but no response. Im thinking its just an old listing that got lost in time.

I am currently talking to a few others on pricing for these two gems:

http://www.finewatergems.com/sapphire.html (The 2.04 Light blue looks stunning on video) negotiating for a better price though. I wish it was round though =/

and http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-colored-gemstone/2-dot-15-sapphire-royal-blue
Here is a video of this one in motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr3MdckDlMg
Again, I wish it was round and not oval :/

so i know this is more vintage but has that leaf motif and is stunning. very unique.

http://loupetroop.com/listings/rings/snqueen-setting-sz-5-dot-75

Ohh this is quite unique indeed. Not what I had originally had in mind, but, I'll save it and setting compare after I've found a great stone. You never know

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

I would advise against the 2.15ct that was originally from Jeff Davies. His stones are often a bit darker than as pictured, and I would be very afraid of two things:

1. The seller added none of their own pictures.
2. The fact that in the description, the seller stated that they wanted a lighter stone.

Gary is wonderful and that sapphire looks really pretty. You don't have any interest in the very large, very light blue one on the bottom?

 

[reicaden]

Re: Should I get this setting for a sapphire engagement ring

I would advise against the 2.15ct that was originally from Jeff Davies. His stones are often a bit darker than as pictured, and I would be very afraid of two things:

1. The seller added none of their own pictures.
2. The fact that in the description, the seller stated that they wanted a lighter stone.

Gary is wonderful and that sapphire looks really pretty. You don't have any interest in the very large, very light blue one on the bottom?

Great information! Thank you for that, I'll shy away from that stone as you are almost 100% right in your observations.

The lightblue one is nice, but too light blue for my tastes. he was able to forward me a video and it almost looks white in a lot of instances. It's a gorgeous gem, just not the saturation I'd like.

Africagems seems expensive.... and gemfix seems a bit better in pricing but still a bit steep. I'll keep searching the lesser looked areas, like Gary's stock and Loupetroop and litnon/mastercutgems to snag something affordable but lovely enough to last a lifetime

As always your input has been amazing, thank you!