Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windowed?

[beaujolais]

Should I have realized this stone is windowed / tilt windowed?

http://gemcal.com/fancy-spinel-1-25-cts-2713

(scroll down a bit on that page for photos)

It had just the color I was looking for (even though I don't care for ovals) so I got it. The color is great but there is some window issue going on. The vendor said that it didn't have a window; I asked. I sort of thought it was windowed from the photo but this color isn't too easy to find, so I went ahead. I think it's more of a tilt window but it's a pretty good one. (Tilt windows are more pronounced in medium - darker colors, right?) The stone, I believe, is slightly deep, so that would contribute to a tilt window?

Tx so much,
sonoma

 

[VapidLapid]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

Yes.
The window is apparent in the photo. Also the dimensions indicate that the stone would have either a window, or a disappointingly shallow crown. the depth is 3.9 ÷ 6.1 = .639 = too shallow. For me .68 is the absolute minimum depth for a colored stone (non diamond) not to have a window, assuming the girdle and crown are properly proportionate. Sphene might be an exception, with its RI near diamond.

eta: the stone is not slightly deep, it is slightly shallow.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

a tilt window often occurs with an oval.
the tilt shows in the picture so, yes, you should have realized.
however, it is not a full on table window, imo.
you love the color.
the stone is not unfairly priced.
you still "win".

 

[chrono]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

My calculation also told me that the stone is quite shallow, around 60% thereabouts meaning that it'll require special faceting to avoid windowing. Even if there is no window, it is likely to show a tilt window very easily. There's just no way around it at this depth.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

Yes.
The window is apparent in the photo. Also the dimensions indicate that the stone would have either a window, or a disappointingly shallow crown. the depth is 3.9 ÷ 6.1 = .639 = too shallow. For me .68 is the absolute minimum depth for a colored stone (non diamond) not to have a window, assuming the girdle and crown are properly proportionate. Sphene might be an exception, with its RI near diamond.

eta: the stone is not slightly deep, it is slightly shallow.

Doing this kind of math is not valid for colored stones, unless you know the design. I have cut stones with a depth ration around 50% that do not window, it's all a matter of the design. Working out the depth to width ratio only makes sense for round diamonds where the design layout is the same. Put the calculators away, and just look at the stone to see if there is a window. Trying to calculate if there is a window or not by measurements doesn't work and is of no value.

On the stone in question in this thread, the photo of the pavilion clues you into the window, since you can see the facet angles in the last and maybe second to last tier of facets is very shallow. Always get a picture of the stone taken perpendicular to the table, and then just look at it, you will see if there is a window or not. The calculations are meaningless.

 

[miraclesrule]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

Thank gawd, Gene...because I was about to go all psycho on my un-set oval stones and attempt math.

 

[LD]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

Yes.
The window is apparent in the photo. Also the dimensions indicate that the stone would have either a window, or a disappointingly shallow crown. the depth is 3.9 ÷ 6.1 = .639 = too shallow. For me .68 is the absolute minimum depth for a colored stone (non diamond) not to have a window, assuming the girdle and crown are properly proportionate. Sphene might be an exception, with its RI near diamond.

eta: the stone is not slightly deep, it is slightly shallow.

Doing this kind of math is not valid for colored stones, unless you know the design. I have cut stones with a depth ration around 50% that do not window, it's all a matter of the design. Working out the depth to width ratio only makes sense for round diamonds where the design layout is the same. Put the calculators away, and just look at the stone to see if there is a window. Trying to calculate if there is a window or not by measurements doesn't work and is of no value.

On the stone in question in this thread, the photo of the pavilion clues you into the window, since you can see the facet angles in the last and maybe second to last tier of facets is very shallow. Always get a picture of the stone taken perpendicular to the table, and then just look at it, you will see if there is a window or not. The calculations are meaningless.

Thank you for this Gene. Maths are absolutely a non-starter with coloured stones - diamonds, yes!

 

[beaujolais]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

Thanks all.

tilt window often occurs with an oval.

Ah, I didn't know that - thanks. I, for the most part, really dislike ovals,
but the color was totally right for me, so I went ahead.

the tilt shows in the picture so, yes, you should have realized.

Where is the smacking-self-in-head icon? You know, I think I knew that (before I bought it) from the photos but was doing denial. Esp. since the vendor said it was not windowed.

however, it is not a full on table window, imo.

Totally right, but at even the smallest angle -

"you love the color. the stone is not unfairly priced. you still "win"."

I do love the color. I usually don't' do windows but probably will live with this due to the great color. I want to find a simple silver setting and set it east-west.
----

I need to get better at the numbers. I know Gene just said that that doesn't hold true for colored stones. I'm sure that is correct. But, I'm still going to ask the following just to understand the procedure better, as it pertains to round diamonds. (Please don't be offended, Gene.)

You would divide length by the height and then what range is considered acceptable? Best?
(Yes, I should know this at this stage of the game but I don't.)

----
Somehow, I was thinking it might be deep due to how when you get the window going - the clear-ish window color contrasted to the silver grey stone makes it look like rather deep. Not good thinking. Also, I'll admit I said this without even considering how it appears in profile much. I have a crazy busy life and am usually really tired, so please excuse.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

STOP THE NUMBERS!!!! Look at the stone instead.

I looked at a few cuts that I do often, and here's the range:

Maybe my post popular cut is the Star 80, this one has a depth of 61%
Another cut that works well even in quartz is only 47.7%
A traditional cushion cut I do is 73%
Another fancy square shape I use is 81.9%

None of these stones window. You can see the numbers are meaningless.

If you feel you must calculate this number, then measure the depth of the stone from the table to the culet, being very careful not to chip or break the culet, then measure the diameter or width of the stone.

% = (Depth/Width) x 100

 

[beaujolais]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

STOP THE NUMBERS!!!! Look at the stone instead.

I hear and understand you, great & knowledgable Sir !

I only asked as to not be so in the dark as to how people were calculating. I thank you very much for explaining !

Much appreciated, again !

sonoma

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

I always am suspect of any stone that is tilted when photographed. With that said do I think you should have realized the stone was windowed? No because the seller states the cut is good as evidenced by his description of "the winning Portuguese Cut is giving this stone the ultimate brilliance."

I think that statement is kind of deceptive and am glad you posted your experience as I have been so close to pulling the trigger on a purchase from them.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

"The vendor said that it didn't have a window; I asked."

Sonoma, that statement of yours says it all. You thought it might have a window, so you asked the question. The vendor told you it did not have a window, so why would you think it did? While it does appear to be windowed from the photo, we all know that photos can be deceiving, which is why we ask vendors questions! I too am disappointed that the vendor wasn't more transparent.

 

[beaujolais]

Re: Should I have realized this stone is windowed/tilt windo

Thanks Lisa & MB.

I always am suspect of any stone that is tilted when photographed.

Absolutely. I wish they all had a profile photo, also. You know, with this stone thought, they would have been better with a straight on shot. If totally upright, it doesn't window.

I don't know if I should give leeway on the "it doesn't have a window" due to cultural differences, perhaps. Maybe they don't make a big deal of windows over there in Thailand. But, this is their business and I'm just making excuses for them if I go with the former.

Despite it being an oval (don't like them), Portuguese cut (don't like them) and windowed, it has a color that I could stare at for hours and get lost in. (I love winter and this reminds me of a grey winter day with silver snow flashes.)

I think that statement is kind of deceptive and am glad you posted your experience as I have been so close to pulling the trigger on a purchase from them.

Actually, I had bought from another Pricescoper who had bought them from the same vendor, a pair of 6 mm., honey colored, cushion cut sphenes that are absolutely lovely in every way. Maybe just be careful, perhaps. They came super fast and they were otherwise very good to work with.

A sort of funny thought - I think when I posted this question I was rather annoyed at myself and meaning to say, "Look at the stupid thing I just did. And you can see the window in the photo and I still did it."

Thanks all.