Should US & Nato step in to defend Ukraine against this Vladman?

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I do agree that we pick and choose who we help. We have always had a close relationship with Europe, remember we have been in the trenches with them before, and they are our allies, called friends. To somehow want to equate our desire to help Ukraine with not helping those that look different than us is making race a component of our problem with Putin. I say "our" because it is a world problem, and why you wish to insert this race business in this conversation eludes me.. You are trying to guilt trip people.., yourself Nala. It is worthy of a conversation, but not clear to me why it applies in this thread.

The US is proceeding carefully. Some bullies do get away with lots, but some ought to stopped.

Annette

 

[nala]

Hi,

I do agree that we pick and choose who we help. We have always had a close relationship with Europe, remember we have been in the trenches with them before, and they are our allies, called friends. To somehow want to equate our desire to help Ukraine with not helping those that look different than us is making race a component of our problem with Putin. I say "our" because it is a world problem, and why you wish to insert this race business in this conversation eludes me.. You are trying to guilt trip people.., yourself Nala. It is worthy of a conversation, but not clear to me why it applies in this thread.

The US is proceeding carefully. Some bullies do get away with lots, but some ought to stopped.

Annette

Lots of articles on this topic. I don’t take credit for coming up with that theory. I just believe it. Research if you want. I attribute this solidarity to many reasons but the one that seems to warrant most is that of race. Think about how open the borders are for all the Ukrainian refugees and yet not so for other races . And if we were in trouble, do you think Ukraine would come to our defense? Or would they put their nation first? And nope. I’m not the one speaking to other nations recruiting volunteers to fight for another country’s cause. That would be Zelensky and apparently he is working his magic with several of you. He even appealed to flattery and talk speaking of guilt trip—telling Biden it’s his duty to be the leader of the world. Me. I just have common sense and don’t need to resort to guilt trips.

 

[missy]

And if we were in trouble, do you think Ukraine would come to our defense?

In my mind that is not the question Nala. We are (though at times I wonder) a civilized nation and IMO the goal should be to do what is right. Putin is committing crimes against humanity. War crimes. He is a criminal of the worst degree.

What is the ethical thing to do here? What is the right thing to do. That is the question.
Not what we can or should get from it or tit for tat.
Of course reality is not always ideal. But that to me is the ideal. Doing the right thing. Not doing something because we can get something for it. Saving lives should be reward enough. Stopping a madman should be reason enough. IMO.

I don't do things for people because I can get something from it. Rather I do it because it is from my heart and what I feel is the right thing to do. But I know the world doesn't work that way. But still we must stop Putin. He is a threat to everyone IMO. To stop him is also in our best interests.

I do agree that we pick and choose who we help. We have always had a close relationship with Europe, remember we have been in the trenches with them before, and they are our allies, called friends.

Exactly. I don't disagree with @nala about race being an issue. But that doesn't negate doing the right thing here. I mean we didn't get involved in WWII til it came to our shores. We let millions of innocent people die. Was that the right thing to do? No. But here we are again. History repeating itself. Not exactly the same comparison but still.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Putin needs to be stopped by whatever means necessary.
We can do it without starting WWIII if we are smart and careful.

If he is indeed a war criminal it is our duty to stop this madman. He won't stop with Ukraine. So even if you don't feel it is our obligation to help Ukrainians (more than we are helping currently) think about what happens if Putin continues unchecked? Reminds me of that famous quote by Niemoller.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.





From Bloomberg dot com:


"
President Joe Biden said the U.S. would send Ukraine drones as well as thousands of anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles, a pledge of a robust new package to fight Russia’s invasion that followed an emotional appeal by Ukraine’s leader, Volodymyr Zelenskiy. Biden accused Vladimir Putin’s forces of committing “atrocities” including attacking civilian areas. Hours earlier, Russian forces bombed a theater in Mariupol sheltering hundreds of civilians, according to the city council there. The Kremlin denies targeting civilians. “Putin is afflicting appalling, appalling devastation and horror on Ukraine,” Biden said Wednesday at the White House, adding “it’s god awful.

” Biden later called Putin a “war criminal.”


The daughter of Rostyslav Romanchuk stands by his coffin during a funeral for him and three other Ukrainians on March 15 in Lviv. The men were killed in a Russian airstrike on the International Center for Peacekeeping and Security, just a few miles from the Polish border. Photographer: Alexey Furman/Getty Images Europe
Russian soldiers reportedly killed Ukrainian civilians waiting in a bread line in the encircled city of Chernihiv, though the Kremlin denied it. Rockets hit a convoy of civilians who were trying to evacuate from Mariupol to Zaporizhzhia, according to Ukrainian officials who said children were among the casualties.

Rubble covered a street in Kyiv on March 15 after another night of attacks by Russian forces. Millions have fled and hundreds of civilians are confirmed to have been killed, though the actual number is likely higher. Photographer: SOPA Images/LightRocket
In his speech to Congress, Zelenskiy urged the U.S. to close its ports to all Russian goods and provide Ukraine with fighter jets, something western officials have rejected in part to avoid broader escalation by Moscow. After showing lawmakers a graphic video of Ukrainian casualties, including children injured and killed by Russian soldiers, Zelenskiy addressed Biden directly in English: “Being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace.”

Members of the Ukrainian military take part in tactical exercises near the western city of Lviv on March 16. Photographer: Yuriy Dyachyshyn/AFP
Russian forces continue to strike infrastructure targets on Wednesday while the overall military situation is largely unchanged, Ukraine said. Russia’s Defense Ministry said its forces are advancing through urban areas in the Luhansk region. After three weeks of war with no major cities captured, Putin’s forces continue to pound cities and residential areas already decimated by earlier strikes. In Moscow, Putin threatened to cleanse Russia of “scum and traitors” he accuses of working covertly with western allies. With sanctions biting and Putin’s war effort hampered by strong resistance, the Biden administration warned him against using weapons of mass destruction, such as chemical and biological agents. Analysts worry though that the potential for nuclear conflict, while small, may become greater as Moscow’s losses mount. —David E. Rovella

"

Missy that poem (is it a poem) is precisely what i thought of days ago

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

And i do agree there is a degre of racism in the coverage but that isnt the people of Ukraine's fault
we have been watching coverage of the war via India and we really like this lady

 

[DAF]

?

Could you please elaborate?

Ukraine is a large ( the largest European country by area, larger than France (Texas for your reference) with over 40 million people.

"Just surrender" is a bit nonchalant.


If you truly think that that means anyone can grab anything as long es he's stronger and bloodshed will cease after surrender?
Good to know. Any country is up for grabs then?

My thoughts exactly. What country will he attack next?

 

[DAF]

I think it’s nonchalant to guilt other countries like the USA into
Fighting for a country that has over 40 million people. The leader of that country made a choice and still has a choice but is trying to drag others in. Meanwhile his own people have fled. And to assume that the same will happen to other countries is speculation and fear mongering. Let’s all dive in and destroy this world bc you know, just in case… nope. We don’t jump in to solve other nation’s conflicts. This one is no different—except some people are being convinced it is for several emotional reasons. We are not the world police.
Also. I am entitled to my opinion in a thread that is asking for an opinion. Sorry not sorry that it disagrees with yours. I’m putting American lives first.

Zelenskyy is the president, and spokesperson if you will, for the Ukranian people. The people of Ukraine do no want to be under Soviet control. Ukraine has emerged as a European democracy and wants to stay that way, from the on-the-street interviews I've seen on the television news reports.

Ukraine had appealed to NATO, of which the USA is a part of. Why has Zelenskyy asked the US specifically for help? BECAUSE WE HAVE THE BEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD AND THE BEST EQUIPMENT.

NATO and by default the US have to be conservative in their approach to aid to Ukraine, because of the potential ramifications of providing aid to a country that has been invaded and attacked by a madman, a man who lies to his own people to justify what he is doing. In my fantasy world, I'd like to believe that everyones heart is hurting for Ukraine and wish they could do more.

Based on our military power, we ARE looked at as the World Police. In general though, the rest of the world does appear to look to the US for help in times of any emergency.

 

[Bonfire]

The Ukraine surrendering to Moscow is not going to save lives or stop Putin from advancing his power grab. Putin won’t stop until the pre-cold war Soviet Union is back under his power. Next comes Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania. Many more lives to be lost. Zelenskyy is trying to get us to declare a no fly zone over the Ukraine which would draw us into war.
Eventually the U. S. will be drawn in militarily, we always are. Very scary times!

 

[nala]

Folks. In the end. We are all speculating. Enjoy.

 

[nala]

The Ukraine surrendering to Moscow is not going to save lives or stop Putin from advancing his power grab. Putin won’t stop until the pre-cold war Soviet Union is back under his power. Next comes Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania. Many more lives to be lost. Zelenskyy is trying to get us to declare a no fly zone over the Ukraine which would draw us into war.
Eventually the U. S. will be drawn in militarily, we always are. Very scary times!

Speculation

 

[nala]

To all of you who are saying yes—are you going to volunteer? He is accepting volunteers. Are you going to send your loved ones? Or is ok to just encourage our participation from the safety of our age and gender that excludes us from actually engaging?

 

[Lookinagain]

Folks. In the end. We are all speculating. Enjoy.

Perhaps, but the speculation is based on past history so there is some foundation for it.

 

[nala]

Perhaps, but the speculation is based on past history so there is some foundation for it.

And we’ve been wrong. Many many many times in history.

 

[Bonfire]

EXCLUSIVE Russian invasion spurs European demand for U.S. drones, missiles
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...uropean-demand-us-drones-missiles-2022-03-17/

Plenty of speculation apparently

 

[Tartansparkles]

I read an article yesterday that explains one scenario where the war could be brought to end - by allowing Putin to save face. (bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993). Putin does not want Ukariane to be a part of NATO. Zelensky calls louder and louder for NATO to provide a no-fly zone. NATO will not do this because of the implications for causing WWIII. Zelensky knows this, yet he still asks. The 'out' if you like is that Zelensky begins to 'change his mind'; as he has asked NATO for support so clearly, and been denied, he begins to think that being part of NATO is no longer a good idea. Zelensky is now able to offer Putin what he wants (ie Ukraine not being part of NATO). Putin accepts this condition as a means of ending the war and saving his own face. NATO then takes the 'blame' for letting down Ukraine. A very simplistic description of a situation where there are no winners,

 

[nala]

I read an article yesterday that explains one scenario where the war could be brought to end - by allowing Putin to save face. (bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993). Putin does not want Ukariane to be a part of NATO. Zelensky calls louder and louder for NATO to provide a no-fly zone. NATO will not do this because of the implications for causing WWIII. Zelensky knows this, yet he still asks. The 'out' if you like is that Zelensky begins to 'change his mind'; as he has asked NATO for support so clearly, and been denied, he begins to think that being part of NATO is no longer a good idea. Zelensky is now able to offer Putin what he wants (ie Ukraine not being part of NATO). Putin accepts this condition as a means of ending the war and saving his own face. NATO then takes the 'blame' for letting down Ukraine. A very simplistic description of a situation where there are no winners,

Exactly. Surrender. Give the rest of the countries time to strategize. Address the issues as they arise not as preemptive response to speculation or to the good old adage of “let’s not repeat the past.”
But again. Those of you so pro stepping in—are you going to volunteer your loved ones? Or are you all just arm chair quarterbacks?

 

[Tartansparkles]

To reach a negotiated settlement is not surrendering - it is a negotiated settlement. Ukraine will not surrender; they will not stop resisting and submit to Putin's authority, and neither should they.

 

[nala]

To reach a negotiated settlement is not surrendering - it is a negotiated settlement. Ukraine will not surrender; they will not stop resisting and submit to Putin's authority, and neither should they.

Putin will not have it any other way. He needs to save face. And if you don’t think they should surrender, what is the end result? When night after night he is asking for other countries to help? Are you ready to volunteer or to send your loved ones? Bc. What is the alternative?

 

[Lookinagain]

Zelensky giving up on joining NATO is not a surrender if it gives Putin what he wants and in return the invasion stops. That's a negotiation. Not a surrender.

Unfortunately that means that Ukraine will still end up under Russia since, as now, NATO will not help defend them. It still gives Putin what he wants which is to retake Ukraine and build back the old USSR.

 

[nala]

Zelensky giving up on joining NATO is not a surrender if it gives Putin what he wants and in return the invasion stops. That's a negotiation. Not a

Zelensky giving up on joining NATO is not a surrender if it gives Putin what he wants and in return the invasion stops. That's a negotiation. Not a surrender.

Unfortunately that means that Ukraine will still end up under Russia since, as now, NATO will not help defend them. It still gives Putin what he wants which is to retake Ukraine and build back the old USSR.

Sounds like a negotiation is a euphemism for surrender. Sigh. Given that was the original catalyst for this war.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I read an article yesterday that explains one scenario where the war could be brought to end - by allowing Putin to save face. (bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993). Putin does not want Ukariane to be a part of NATO. Zelensky calls louder and louder for NATO to provide a no-fly zone. NATO will not do this because of the implications for causing WWIII. Zelensky knows this, yet he still asks. The 'out' if you like is that Zelensky begins to 'change his mind'; as he has asked NATO for support so clearly, and been denied, he begins to think that being part of NATO is no longer a good idea. Zelensky is now able to offer Putin what he wants (ie Ukraine not being part of NATO). Putin accepts this condition as a means of ending the war and saving his own face. NATO then takes the 'blame' for letting down Ukraine. A very simplistic description of a situation where there are no winners,

If that is the fasted way to bring peace and save more lives being lost

But who pays to fix Ukrain?
Russia should pay
What about compensation for the innocent lives lost ?
Morally Putin needs to go to the cleaners over this

 

[Bonfire]

That article is an editorial opinion piece.
Yes, YES @nala ! I absolutely would! I’ve lost a brother to war so I don’t say it lightly. I don’t want the U.S. in a war. When there is a communist dictator invading a sovereign country then we need to not only act very carefully (think China coming on board with Russia) but be prepared to defend freedom, or you better start learning Russian.

 

[Lookinagain]

Are you ready to volunteer or to send your loved ones? Bc. What is the alternative?

If I had family or other loved ones in the military, who, since there is no draft, joined of their own volition, I would expect that they accepted the fact that they may have to go to fight at some point during their military career. And if them going meant that we could avert mutual nuclear annihilation then I would think that they would want to go, and I would want them to. The prospect of nuclear war was my tipping point on us stepping in, and I still feel that way.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Just imangine what it must be like to be Ukrainian right now with men being forbidden to leave the country because they must fight
My country has never been invaded
we have fought far off wars to help our allies fight tyranny because it was the right thing to do

 

[Bonfire]

As Russian advance stalls, U.S. warns China against aiding Moscow in Ukraine
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ina-against-aiding-moscow-ukraine-2022-03-17/

 

[Tartansparkles]

Putin has laid out his 6 demands for peace https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60785754

 

[nala]

That article is an editorial opinion piece.
Yes, YES @nala ! I absolutely would! I’ve lost a brother to war so I don’t say it lightly. I don’t want the U.S. in a war. When there is a communist dictator invading a sovereign country then we need to not only act very carefully (think China coming on board with Russia) but be prepared to defend freedom, or you better start learning Russian.

We would ALL DIE — No need to learn Russian. And that is why. We. Stay. Out. Of it.

 

[LightBright]

The rhetoric of further escalation is incredibly manipulative, dangerous, and sickening. We need urgent and ongoing diplomatic negotiations and immediate ceasefire. Nothing else. We need our politicians to be urging diplomacy and peaceful resolution at all times. The Cold War period, which was full of this dangerous posturing, was miraculously put on hold for three decades. Now our politicians/govt have caused it to re-emerge. Americans and indeed the Ukrainians should never have been put in this position.

 

[LilAlex]

It’s a disgusting, disgraceful and devastating situation.
That “creature” needs to be taken down and taken out. There is no negotiating with insane maniacs.

^ This may feel cathartic to say or write, but it also makes me so grateful that we have professionals -- and their war-game scenarios -- making these calls. The presumption that one can "take out" the military dictator of a global nuclear power -- who enjoys the support of at least half his countrymen -- while guaranteeing the world's safety is silly. Do people really not see this?

 

[telephone89]

^ This may feel cathartic to say or write, but it also makes me so grateful that we have professionals -- and their war-game scenarios -- making these calls. The presumption that one can "take out" the military dictator of a global nuclear power -- who enjoys the support of at least half his countrymen -- while guaranteeing the world's safety is silly. Do people really not see this?

He's literally murdering pregnant women and babies by bombing maternity hospitals... weird to flex to defend him???