show me cads and finished product

[minousbijoux]

My CAD from ERD and the finished product.

Love this! One of the few CADs I really like. The proportions on the end product are just perfect.

 

[minousbijoux]

My five stone...which I reset then sold. Pricescope disease

Goodness! Is that really exactly the CAD for the piece? If so - it's very different! The shared prong vs. four-prong aspect is the first alteration I noticed...

I was beginning a long rant on the potential relationships between CAD and CAM, differences between vendors, differences between the intended purpose of the CAD (a beginning model for a client on which a wax will be based, The Model for The Wax which will be produced by CAM, a beginning model of a vision from which a piece will be hand-crafted, etc.)...

Niel, I will be honest, I think starting a thread saying "compare the CAD and the finished product" and leaving it at that is throwing the topic to the wolves - it can be tremendously misleading without some context and reference and a good amount of further explanation. It's like stating that "unplated white gold is creamy" - no, without more information about karat and alloy there is no basis for assertion of that ubiquitous correlation.

I don't have time to delve into it at the moment but I'll post some examples later - they're certainly on PS aplenty. I think yours would be a fantastic place to start on that discussion Mayk!!

I think it would be helpful to know which vendor provided the renderings, but I think its nice for people who haven't gone though the process to see, and also just fun for me. Maybe not too scientific but I like to see the before and after.

Completely agree. Not everything has to be so serious! Regardless, having any kind of visual aid to allow for comparison is of benefit, I think

Ah. My apologies, I didn't realise in-depth discussion and accuracy of assertion was beside the point; I will refrain from further commentary.

My contribution is one of my several CAD/cast pieces. I think it (along with others already posted in this thread) highlights the importance of
A) Having confidence in one's chosen vendor,
B) Trusting in that chosen vendor's expertise, and
C) Recognising that depending on who is using them and what they are being used for, CADs can be anything from perfectly precise renditions of a piece to vague summations of a concept to strict outlines for wax production (rather than pretty pictures to please the customer).

Yssie: now as I see it (admittedly don't have much experience) it sure looks like your CADs were different than the finished product. Your ring is stunning, but I wouldn't have gotten that from the CADs (maybe the first iteration anyway) where it shows the prongs as blocks. Anyway, beautiful ring!

 

[minousbijoux]

I have two...

I honestly feel like both vendors provided a CAD that represented the finished product very well!

First up is from OWD.









Here is my current ERD ring.

I have just absolutely, fallen head over heels. Totally smitten! Valmanin: your first ring is unbelievably beautiful - one of the most beautiful rings I've ever seen (and the scenery in the back of your shots doesn't hurt either )!

 

[minousbijoux]

It boggles my mind how some CADs can look so unlike the finished product, but some like mine could be mistaked for the real thing. I even once posted a CAD as the real, until I paid closer atention and fixed it.

I so totally agree with this! So many people start with CADs that don't start by looking like the finished product. I am so impressed with the courage of members to have CAD's made, and have faith that they will be able to spot all the idiosyncrasies or problems of the piece, before it is actually made. My fear is that I would miss something of fail to interpret something correctly and wouldn't like the end product...I'd be curious to know how often that happens.

Niel, I appreciate the fact that you started this thread as eye candy and I'm not trying to threadjack. I came to look here because I so admire everyone who undertakes the CAD process and for whom the end result is a winner.

 

[LLJsmom]

Great thread!! I find every post helpful. I don't know if I ever will have the courage to design my own but applaud those who do. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Niel]

It boggles my mind how some CADs can look so unlike the finished product, but some like mine could be mistaked for the real thing. I even once posted a CAD as the real, until I paid closer atention and fixed it.

I so totally agree with this! So many people start with CADs that don't start by looking like the finished product. I am so impressed with the courage of members to have CAD's made, and have faith that they will be able to spot all the idiosyncrasies or problems of the piece, before it is actually made. My fear is that I would miss something of fail to interpret something correctly and wouldn't like the end product...I'd be curious to know how often that happens.

Niel, I appreciate the fact that you started this thread as eye candy and I'm not trying to threadjack. I came to look here because I so admire everyone who undertakes the CAD process and for whom the end result is a winner.

I know what you mean. But any time i went custom was because i couldn't find what i wanted pre made. So do you buy something thats not at all what you wanted, or something thats very close to what you wanted, but with a few things you hadn't envisioned, KWIM? I have very broad scoping ideas of what i want, which i know is different than many here. If it gets close to my overall vision, id be willing to forgive some slight differences, chalk it up to artistic license.

I can totally understand the people saying that they wouldn't want to pay for a ring without knowing EXACTLY what it'll look like beforehand though.

No worries, i didn't think this was threadjacking at I have a colored stone cad to contribute but as its not finished ill hold off until then.

 

[redwood66]

I agree Minous I just love valmanin's rose gold solitaire. It is absolutely stunning.

 

[braga123]

This was a fun thread! The before and after pictures are exactly what I expect in a SMTB thread!

Honestly, at the risk of being flogged for my "non-veteran" opinion, I have to agree with the majority that sometimes eye-candy is just eye-candy and the dissertations belong in RT.

This is the first forum that I ever participate in, so pardon my naivete, but I am amazed at how the amount of posts an OP has translates into wisdom and a sense of superiority...seriously...we're talking about diamonds, not about finding the cure to cancer.


Redroze--I can't wait to see your actual ring! So exciting!

 

[SB621]

I'm actually quite shocked, disappointed and borderline disgusted about some of the responses in this thread. It seems the last two years or so on PS all we talk about is why the "oldies" no longer post on PS, the ppl who actually brought something to PS, where discussion and education took place. People actually used to learn on PS where we promoted open discussion. We didn't rely on the same 5 people who just repeated the same advise that others taught them who didn't understand why that advise was sound. No wonder no one wants to come here and post anymore.

 

[braga123]

"The horror! The horror!"

 

[Laila619]

This was a fun thread! The before and after pictures are exactly what I expect in a SMTB thread!

Honestly, at the risk of being flogged for my "non-veteran" opinion, I have to agree with the majority that sometimes eye-candy is just eye-candy and the dissertations belong in RT.

This is the first forum that I ever participate in, so pardon my naivete, but I am amazed at how the amount of posts an OP has translates into wisdom and a sense of superiority...seriously...we're talking about diamonds, not about finding the cure to cancer.

Amen!

 

[madelise]

"The horror! The horror!"

Really? You must be bored. First you start a thread asking to be directed or alerted of drama, and now you're fanning the flame. I don't know if you're just trolling or not.

 

[Niel]

I'm actually quite shocked, disappointed and borderline disgusted about some of the responses in this thread. It seems the last two years or so on PS all we talk about is why the "oldies" no longer post on PS, the ppl who actually brought something to PS, where discussion and education took place. People actually used to learn on PS where we promoted open discussion. We didn't rely on the same 5 people who just repeated the same advise that others taught them who didn't understand why that advise was sound. No wonder no one wants to come here and post anymore.

Perhaps no one wants to because when they do people go over to hangout and make fun of them.

To spin the fact I wanted a SMTB thread an and accompanying RT informative thread into someone not accepting veteran information is completely silly. No one said they didn't want knowledge. They said this isn't the place for it. This also isn't the place for shaming new members into being what you want them to be.

 

[Clairitek]

I'm actually quite shocked, disappointed and borderline disgusted about some of the responses in this thread. It seems the last two years or so on PS all we talk about is why the "oldies" no longer post on PS, the ppl who actually brought something to PS, where discussion and education took place. People actually used to learn on PS where we promoted open discussion. We didn't rely on the same 5 people who just repeated the same advise that others taught them who didn't understand why that advise was sound. No wonder no one wants to come here and post anymore.

Perhaps no one wants to because when they do people go over to hangout and make fun of them.

To spin the fact I wanted a SMTB thread an and accompanying RT informative thread into someone not accepting veteran information is completely silly. No one said they didn't want knowledge. They said this isn't the place for it. This also isn't the place for shaming new members into being what you want them to be.

Separate threads will be really misleading to a newer person who only sees the "fun" thread and not the "dissertation" thread. If they only look at before and after pics and don't know anything about the in-between thought process or more details about how this particular style of manufacturing process works then it can be really easy to have unrealistic expectations about the outcome or simply make bad choices along the way. I feel like this is part of why Yssie wanted to add more depth to this discussion.

Yssie- thanks for your long post. Really informative.

 

[Niel]

All smtb threads can be misleading.
"Show Mr your Ks" may not give the full understanding of what a k really looks like on the hand

"Show me your ovals " does nothing to show someone how to pick a nice oval

Photos alone don't teach regardless of the subject

There is a thread for "projects" and threads that show the finished product. I wanted a thread that bridged the gap.

 

[pandabee]

While I understand your intent behind starting the thread, the fact is that this is on a public forum, one meant for education. Just because you started the thread with a specific intent, does not mean that you can dictate the direction the thread takes (even by placing it in a specific sub forum). Yssie provided some very helpful information and I am happy to see that within this thread since it is relevant to the conversation.

 

[Andelain]

It boggles my mind how some CADs can look so unlike the finished product, but some like mine could be mistaked for the real thing. I even once posted a CAD as the real, until I paid closer atention and fixed it.

In a bad or a good way? I think this is due to the particular software used as some are strictly a straightforward CAD rendering that do not show mirror style reflection of metal, etc. For myself I do not need that level of perfection in a CAD but others might. I think your CADs are gorgeous! The cost to produce that level will be likely much higher and would need to be passed on to the buyer. I do like that once the CAD is approved I also get pics of all views of the wax next before it is cast. Much cheaper to fix a wax than a cast piece.

That makes sense, I didn't think about some costing more than others to produce. When my pendant was designed I got several that looked like these before they rendered the one I posted earlier.





The CAD artist would make a requested change, send me one of these, send another, etc. But I was told that if I needed more than 2 of the rendered ones, there was an extra charge.

 

[redwood66]

I see now Andelain. Now that you posted those renderings it seems they work on a very basic CAD image at first to make sure you like the proportions, prongs vs. no prongs, etc. Then once you approve those they do the beautiful 3D one for a finished review. Did they give you mm measurements? I find those extremely helpful if they are on the CAD itself if I have specific parameters I want to stay within.

 

[yssie]

All smtb threads can be misleading.
"Show Mr your Ks" may not give the full understanding of what a k really looks like on the hand

"Show me your ovals " does nothing to show someone how to pick a nice oval

Photos alone don't teach regardless of the subject

There is a thread for "projects" and threads that show the finished product. I wanted a thread that bridged the gap.

Oh, for goodness sake... This response is either remarkably dimwitted or astonishingly closed-minded, and given that PS generally attracts intelligent people...

The comparison implicit in "show me the CAD used to create the final product" and "show me the final product that was created using that CAD" is obvious. It is the difference between "show me your Ks" and "show me your Is vs. Js vs. Ks" - the first requires no discussion to be valuable and interesting because it makes no arguable assertions; the second would (should!) yield the sort of pedantic, verbose, nitpicky, detailed responses that are quite clearly unwelcome in this thread.

On the PS that I'm familiar with discussion 'til the cows come home on any topic is welcome. People share opinions and experiences, people question and debate in-detail, and the reader is given the responsibility of determining the extent to which he wants observe or participate. I am certainly not used to seeing threads impose filters that permit only directionless purposeless superficiality passage, and that explicitly instruct viewers to turn their brains off whilst perusing


To everyone who understood why I wanted to go into this more with other PSers - thank you. I'd go back and elaborate but... I'm pretty shocked by the whole premise of this thread, honestly, let alone the expressed implementation, and I think I'd best leave it be lest I give in to the compulsion to write something even more - volatile. And wordy

 

[braga123]

All smtb threads can be misleading.
"Show Mr your Ks" may not give the full understanding of what a k really looks like on the hand

"Show me your ovals " does nothing to show someone how to pick a nice oval

Photos alone don't teach regardless of the subject

There is a thread for "projects" and threads that show the finished product. I wanted a thread that bridged the gap.

Oh, for goodness sake... This response is either remarkably dimwitted or astonishingly closed-minded, and given that PS generally attracts intelligent people...

The comparison implicit in "show me the CAD used to create the final product" and "show me the final product that was created using that CAD" is obvious. It is the difference between "show me your Ks" and "show me your Is vs. Js vs. Ks" - the first requires no discussion to be valuable and interesting because it makes no arguable assertions; the second would (should!) yield the sort of pedantic, verbose, nitpicky, detailed responses that are quite clearly unwelcome in this thread.

On the PS that I'm familiar with discussion 'til the cows come home on any topic is welcome. People share opinions and experiences, people question and debate in-detail, and the reader is given the responsibility of determining the extent to which he wants observe or participate. I am certainly not used to seeing threads impose filters that permit only directionless purposeless superficiality passage, and that explicitly instruct viewers to turn their brains off whilst perusing


To everyone who understood why I wanted to go into this more with other PSers - thank you. I'd go back and elaborate but... I'm pretty shocked by the whole premise of this thread, honestly, let alone the expressed implementation, and I think I'd best leave it be lest I give in to the compulsion to write something even more - volatile. And wordy

She never told you not to do this, but she defended HER right NOT to , when you dictated that she should take more responsibility for this thread!
I realize that I am overstepping my boundaries according to some of your disciples, because given my post count, I am not worthy of addressing you, but you can attribute this boldness to the Class of 2013.

 

[yssie]

All smtb threads can be misleading.
"Show Mr your Ks" may not give the full understanding of what a k really looks like on the hand

"Show me your ovals " does nothing to show someone how to pick a nice oval

Photos alone don't teach regardless of the subject

There is a thread for "projects" and threads that show the finished product. I wanted a thread that bridged the gap.

Oh, for goodness sake... This response is either remarkably dimwitted or astonishingly closed-minded, and given that PS generally attracts intelligent people...

The comparison implicit in "show me the CAD used to create the final product" and "show me the final product that was created using that CAD" is obvious. It is the difference between "show me your Ks" and "show me your Is vs. Js vs. Ks" - the first requires no discussion to be valuable and interesting because it makes no arguable assertions; the second would (should!) yield the sort of pedantic, verbose, nitpicky, detailed responses that are quite clearly unwelcome in this thread.

On the PS that I'm familiar with discussion 'til the cows come home on any topic is welcome. People share opinions and experiences, people question and debate in-detail, and the reader is given the responsibility of determining the extent to which he wants observe or participate. I am certainly not used to seeing threads impose filters that permit only directionless purposeless superficiality passage, and that explicitly instruct viewers to turn their brains off whilst perusing


To everyone who understood why I wanted to go into this more with other PSers - thank you. I'd go back and elaborate but... I'm pretty shocked by the whole premise of this thread, honestly, let alone the expressed implementation, and I think I'd best leave it be lest I give in to the compulsion to write something even more - volatile. And wordy

She never told you not to do this, but she defended HER right NOT to , when you dictated that she should take more responsibility for this thread!
I realize that I am overstepping my boundaries according to some of your disciples, because given my post count, I am not worthy of addressing you, but you can attribute this boldness to the Class of 2013.

"Disciples"? LMAO. Yeah, I've had my a$$ (rightfully) handed to me on a platter by pretty much every one of those people - I greatly respect their opinions. It's discussion, it's fact-checking, it's community review. I don't think your snark is having the intended effect.

Don't make this about post count in a vacuum - high or low. It isn't. It's about taking pride in your posts, and taking responsibility for the information contained therein, whatever you post about. The fact of the matter is that most newcomers will give the advice of those with tradeperson status and those with higher post counts more weight - to ignore that is to deny reality. My response was to the specific post quoted, no other - and the specific post quoted lacks logic.

 

[Niel]

All smtb threads can be misleading.
"Show Mr your Ks" may not give the full understanding of what a k really looks like on the hand

"Show me your ovals " does nothing to show someone how to pick a nice oval

Photos alone don't teach regardless of the subject

There is a thread for "projects" and threads that show the finished product. I wanted a thread that bridged the gap.

Oh, for goodness sake... This response is either remarkably dimwitted or astonishingly closed-minded, and given that PS generally attracts intelligent people...

The comparison implicit in "show me the CAD used to create the final product" and "show me the final product that was created using that CAD" is obvious. It is the difference between "show me your Ks" and "show me your Is vs. Js vs. Ks" - the first requires no discussion to be valuable and interesting because it makes no arguable assertions; the second would (should!) yield the sort of pedantic, verbose, nitpicky, detailed responses that are quite clearly unwelcome in this thread.

On the PS that I'm familiar with discussion 'til the cows come home on any topic is welcome. People share opinions and experiences, people question and debate in-detail, and the reader is given the responsibility of determining the extent to which he wants observe or participate. I am certainly not used to seeing threads impose filters that permit only directionless purposeless superficiality passage, and that explicitly instruct viewers to turn their brains off whilst perusing


To everyone who understood why I wanted to go into this more with other PSers - thank you. I'd go back and elaborate but... I'm pretty shocked by the whole premise of this thread, honestly, let alone the expressed implementation, and I think I'd best leave it be lest I give in to the compulsion to write something even more - volatile. And wordy

She never told you not to do this, but she defended HER right NOT to , when you dictated that she should take more responsibility for this thread!
I realize that I am overstepping my boundaries according to some of your disciples, because given my post count, I am not worthy of addressing you, but you can attribute this boldness to the Class of 2013.

"Disciples"? LMAO. Yeah, I've had my a$$ (rightfully) handed to me on a platter by pretty much every one of those people - I greatly respect their opinions. It's discussion, it's fact-checking, it's community review. I don't think your snark is having the intended effect.

Don't make this about post count in a vacuum - high or low. It isn't. It's about taking pride in your posts, and taking responsibility for the information contained therein, whatever you post about. The fact of the matter is that most newcomers will give the advice of those with tradeperson status and those with higher post counts more weight - to ignore that is to deny reality. My response was to the specific post quoted, no other - and the specific post quoted lacks logic.

no. It does not.

Lets take the point about "show me the K's".
A few photos of K's do not show you what the stone looks like in multiple lighting situations, it does not delve into the idea that some shapes look more tinted that others when in the K range. It does not say 'oh some ks have a brown undertone, some yellow."

To the point about ovals. A SMTB thread about ovals is to show pictures of ovals not to explain the how to pick out a well cut oval, nor does it need to, because thats the entire point of having sub forums.

That is how SMTB threads operate. Its the same reason when someone asked questions in the "show me your colored stones thread' people advise to start a new thread, or what the vendor list asks people not to post anything but vendors.

Post whatever you want, as Im sure people are coming to check the drama, not for fun start to finish pics of renderings now.

 

[msop04]

Nice Niel! I make sure the CAD is exactly what I wanted albeit bulkier looking. This is the benefit of doing the CAD process and a customer needs to make sure their final product will be what they envisioned. For myself I am too much of a micromanager to allow the jeweler full reign over a project. This is a CAD of a David Klass customer choice pendant and is not specific for my stone. So I did not need a new one when I had my diamond reset. But it turned out lovely.

HA! I'm just like you, redwood! I didn't even get a CAD for my ering -- just had to trust the bench... I thought I was gonna have, as we Southerners like to say, "a complete come apart."

I must say I'm kind of amazed how close the CADs have been to the finished products posted -- gives me a little more confidence for possible CAD projects in the future.

I love this thread!! More pictures, please!!

 

[Andelain]

I see now Andelain. Now that you posted those renderings it seems they work on a very basic CAD image at first to make sure you like the proportions, prongs vs. no prongs, etc. Then once you approve those they do the beautiful 3D one for a finished review. Did they give you mm measurements? I find those extremely helpful if they are on the CAD itself if I have specific parameters I want to stay within.

Yes, that's how they did in this case. I was told they don't usually send so many, but my pendant was so off the beaten path of what they normally do that they really wanted to get it to be ecactly what I wanted. What you see there is the first and last of 7 or 8 prelims, each one making small changes until it looked like what I wanted it to.

As for measurements, not like you're thinking. It was designed from the stones outward, they dictated final size. We knew in advance it's be rough 1 1/4", but I've never measured width. They started with this drawing that I sent them, and a 1.10 ct Eightstar diamond that I wanted on the bottom. Bob Hoskins helped me pick out a .46 ct ACA and we decided that a .14 was the right size for the top. Once Joel, the artiste, and I started these prelims he told me .46 wasn't the best size. I needed to either go into the low 40's to make the sides straight, or a hair larger so you could tell the curve was intended. Since the curve was very much part of my vision, Bob and I had to pick out a larger stone. Can you hear PS'ers crying about me having to pick out a larger diamond? The one thing I did do a couple of times was shrink the prelims down to RL size to be sure they really did reflect my envisioned result. Since I didn't have a specific size parameter to meet, I never did take actual meaurements.

 

[Niel]

I see now Andelain. Now that you posted those renderings it seems they work on a very basic CAD image at first to make sure you like the proportions, prongs vs. no prongs, etc. Then once you approve those they do the beautiful 3D one for a finished review. Did they give you mm measurements? I find those extremely helpful if they are on the CAD itself if I have specific parameters I want to stay within.

Yes, that's how they did in this case. I was told they don't usually send so many, but my pendant was so off the beaten path of what they normally do that they really wanted to get it to be ecactly what I wanted. What you see there is the first and last of 7 or 8 prelims, each one making small changes until it looked like what I wanted it to.

As for measurements, not like you're thinking. It was designed from the stones outward, they dictated final size. We knew in advance it's be rough 1 1/4", but I've never measured width. They started with this drawing that I sent them, and a 1.10 ct Eightstar diamond that I wanted on the bottom. Bob Hoskins helped me pick out a .46 ct ACA and we decided that a .14 was the right size for the top. Once Joel, the artiste, and I started these prelims he told me .46 wasn't the best size. I needed to either go into the low 40's to make the sides straight, or a hair larger so you could tell the curve was intended. Since the curve was very much part of my vision, Bob and I had to pick out a larger stone. Can you hear PS'ers crying about me having to pick out a larger diamond? The one thing I did do a couple of times was shrink the prelims down to RL size to be sure they really did reflect my envisioned result. Since I didn't have a specific size parameter to meet, I never did take actual meaurements.

Your finished renderings really are great, like your avatar. I don't even know if thats a pic or a cad

 

[Andelain]

Your finished renderings really are great, like your avatar. I don't even know if thats a pic or a cad

That's a glamor pic taken by the oh-so-tanted Becca at WF the day it was finished. She really took some beautiful pics, like always.

Since you weren't here when this was being made, you probably never saw the threads on it. Go here if you want to see it coming to life. [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-finally-finished-the-sketches-for-my-pendant.146387/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-finally-finished-the-sketches-for-my-pendant.146387/[/URL] . It's something I'm really proud of, completely my design. And the folks at WF gave me 200%, letting me guide it every step of the way.

 

[woofmama]

Your finished renderings really are great, like your avatar. I don't even know if thats a pic or a cad

That's a glamor pic taken by the oh-so-tanted Becca at WF the day it was finished. She really took some beautiful pics, like always.

Since you weren't here when this was being made, you probably never saw the threads on it. Go here if you want to see it coming to life. [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-finally-finished-the-sketches-for-my-pendant.146387/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-finally-finished-the-sketches-for-my-pendant.146387/[/URL] . It's something I'm really proud of, completely my design. And the folks at WF gave me 200%, letting me guide it every step of the way.

Andelain Your pendant is a great design! It has the modern aesthetic that I love

 

[redwood66]

Your finished renderings really are great, like your avatar. I don't even know if thats a pic or a cad

That's a glamor pic taken by the oh-so-tanted Becca at WF the day it was finished. She really took some beautiful pics, like always.

Since you weren't here when this was being made, you probably never saw the threads on it. Go here if you want to see it coming to life. [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-finally-finished-the-sketches-for-my-pendant.146387/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-finally-finished-the-sketches-for-my-pendant.146387/[/URL] . It's something I'm really proud of, completely my design. And the folks at WF gave me 200%, letting me guide it every step of the way.

Thanks for linking and I followed the ensuing links to your final piece. Absolutely wonderful! I want to do a completely original piece some day. It seems infinitely gratifying when you look at it if you designed it yourself from the thought to fruition.

 

[NYCSpoonman]

Just posted this in my own thread. Brand new as of this week

 

[minousbijoux]

This was a fun thread! The before and after pictures are exactly what I expect in a SMTB thread!

Honestly, at the risk of being flogged for my "non-veteran" opinion, I have to agree with the majority that sometimes eye-candy is just eye-candy and the dissertations belong in RT.

This is the first forum that I ever participate in, so pardon my naivete, but I am amazed at how the amount of posts an OP has translates into wisdom and a sense of superiority...seriously...we're talking about diamonds, not about finding the cure to cancer.


Redroze--I can't wait to see your actual ring! So exciting!

braga: I don't know you, nor admittedly do I have a clue why there is such rancor here as I pretty much keep to my own in CS, but I am surprised by your comments. I love that you said this is a fun thread - it is, and maybe some day I'll get over my dang CAD anxiety and actually do something. But it seems like you are choosing to pick a fight and that's unfortunate. If you felt slighted at all, why not practice turning the other cheek? I'm just so surprised when I see an educational thread like this seemingly highjacked by ill will - I really doubt that Niel wanted the thread to go off course in this manner (If I'm wrong, Niel, I apologize), because when you do this, it reads like you are making this thread about yourself. Just my perspective...