SLP Gem Lab..??

[arjunajane]

colorlvr,
thankyou for your input.
Seeing as you know someone who knows the owner of gem-cove, what is your opinion on the honesty of his listings?
I would be interested in your thoughts, cheers

 

[T L]

I can tell you that I''ve stayed away from Gem_cove because their cheaper gems look really bad in color, and everything that has nice color is very expensive. I think it''s one of those "you get what you pay for" stores, which is fine, but I''m always on the lookout for decent buys on ebay.

 

[colorluvr]

Personally, I''ve been satisfied with the stones I''ve gotten from gem_cove. I usually buy their stones on auction, so I have never purchased one of their BIN more expensive stones. Their photos are flattering, but I don''t think they are photoshopped, and are a pretty good representation of the stone. Here is the vendor photo of a 5.64ct spess I bought a couple of months ago and my (lousy) photo.... to compare.

 

[T L]

My problem with the above stone is that they will call that mandarin color, and it''s quite obviously not "mandarin." That color spessartite should be very low priced.

 

[colorluvr]

You are correct, it is definitely not mandarin orange, but rather a red/orange, but then I didn''t pay a "mandarin" orange" price for it either. I''m not sure what you consider "very low priced"?

 

[ruffysdad]

Date: 5/30/2010 11:13:01 AM
Author: arjunajane
hey Pete- just to clarify, that stone is not mine, I believe it was just a general example TL was posting for morecarats

I had purchased a spinel though from the same seller a month or two ago. I agree, many of the gems seem too good to be true, hence my trepidation.
Good luck with the early start! Is Ruffy by chance a boarder collie? I grew up with a mix as our family pup for over 12yrs, they are fabulous dogs.

Ruffy''s a jen-you-wine mutt

! He''s got some Border Collie in him but mostly Akita we think. I''ve got him registered as a BC cross but if the judges ask I tell them that he''s a Texas Border Collie (We grow ''em big in Texas!) and that''s how we can compete even though Akita''s are not considered herding dogs and therefore can''t herd. Tell that to his wall full of ribbons ''n stuff

!

I have the same problems with ebay but there are deals to be had and I know that there are a few people on this forum besides myself that list stones there. I''m just cautious as all get out and bring my highly skeptical me to the computer when I go cruising ebay.

Pete

 

[T L]

Date: 5/31/2010 11:15:48 AM
Author: colorluvr
You are correct, it is definitely not mandarin orange, but rather a red/orange, but then I didn''t pay a ''mandarin'' orange'' price for it either. I''m not sure what you consider ''very low priced''?

I hope it was not more than $30/ct, and to me, that would be on the high side for that color. Some dealers call that mandarin, and charge exhorbitant prices on that color.

 

[colorluvr]

I paid about $9 per carat for the stone (it''s 5.64ct and I paid $51). I thought it would make a pretty wire wrapped pendant some day.

 

[T L]

I''m glad, good price.

 

[colorluvr]

Date: 5/31/2010 12:38:02 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I''m glad, good price.

 

[T L]

In the meantime, I''ve emailed others, and I am waiting a response on AIGS to detect be-heated corundum. However, here''s a good article on be-heated corundum that AIGS did in conjunction with other gemological labs. I wonder if they had to borrow their equipment to do the analysis.

http://www.aigsthailand.com/FieldTripsDetail.aspx?tID=32&lang=TH

 

[colorluvr]

another interesting article on beryllium treatment:

http://www.gemresearch.ch/journal/No4/contents.htm

 

[T L]

Here is my response from AIGS after I emailed them. Therefore, if you do get a certificate from Thailand for sapphire, please make sure it's from a lab with the appropriate equipment. I had thought my sapphire was just gently heated, but it could be be-heated based on their response, which is quite disappointing. If you do get an unheated designation from them, your stone is not be-heated. Since testing for beryllium requires a very expensive and exclusive machine, I would never buy a sapphire without the test, any sapphire, even a cheap one. It's just not worth buying these stones anymore IMHO because if you spend even $200 on a gem, it could be worth $10. What is also disappointing is that their new HT codes on their website are misleading since they make one assume they test for beryllium.

I also apologize for recommending AIGS for sapphires. I'm very disappointed in this as I have a sapphire with the HT designation, and now I'm unsure if it's been diffused.

Quote from AIGS:
Thank you for your email. We are in the process of acquiring the machine that is able to test for beryllium treated sapphires. Having said that, please also note that natural sapphires may contain beryllium naturally. The test performed can only indicate the presence of beryllium (on locations tested) and cannot conclusively determine if a stone has been beryllium treated.

The HT designation on our reports means the stone is heated, but we do not test for beryllium treatment. However, we are in contact with a few different labs, and if needed can provide you the service required.


Best Regards,
Lindsay
Customer Service
AIGS Lab

 

[morecarats]

I am not sure all or most gemologists would agree with the AIGS conclusion that "natural sapphires may contain beryllium naturally. The test performed can only indicate the presence of beryllium (on locations tested) and cannot conclusively determine if a stone has been beryllium treated."

The basis for this claim is a GIA study that was published about a year ago, that found some pockets of beryllium in low concentration in a few sapphire samples. They did not provide a comparison with the concentrations and distribution of beryllium in known beryllium diffused samples. The report itself indicates that this is very preliminary research and it is too early to draw conclusions from it.

As always, it is best to read the original research. You''ll find a summary of the GIA report here:

http://www.gia.edu/research-resources/news-from-research/Beryllium%20in%20pink%20and%20yellow%20sapphire%20%2020090401_so%20ahs.pdf

It is worth noting that the GIA labs continue to inform customers that they can identify beryllium diffused corundum using LA-ICP-MS analysis. One doubts that AIGS would be going ahead with plans to purchase a very expensive LIBS machine unless they thought it could identify beryllium-diffused stones.

 

[T L]

And the fact that they diffuse the rough means that just because someone bought rough, it could still be diffused. Many treatments only happen on cut gems. Thanks Morecarats for bringing this issue up. I would never have discovered the truth unless you mentioned this.

AIGS, as well as many other labs, should be more informative on their site about what they can and cannot test for.

 

[arjunajane]

Thankyou TL for posting the update, I am glad they gave you a definitive answer although I agree it is disappointing.
TL, just a question - does this new info have consequences for any other gems than sapphire?



I would really like to thank you morecarats for joining this discussion and bringing to the table your info about the different Thai labs - I think this is very eye opening for anyone who is buying gems from Thai sellers, and also for those using or recommending AIGS..

When 2.0 is up, let''s be sure to post all this info under a more easily search-able thread title..

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 5/31/2010 10:19:24 AM
Author: colorluvr
Personally, I''ve been satisfied with the stones I''ve gotten from gem_cove. I usually buy their stones on auction, so I have never purchased one of their BIN more expensive stones. Their photos are flattering, but I don''t think they are photoshopped, and are a pretty good representation of the stone. Here is the vendor photo of a 5.64ct spess I bought a couple of months ago and my (lousy) photo.... to compare.

thanks colorluvr for your input. If I can ask you, the fact that gem-cove uses SLP ''certs'', does this colour your opinion of them at all?

 

[T L]

Date: 6/1/2010 8:13:11 AM
Author: morecarats
I am not sure all or most gemologists would agree with the AIGS conclusion that 'natural sapphires may contain beryllium naturally. The test performed can only indicate the presence of beryllium (on locations tested) and cannot conclusively determine if a stone has been beryllium treated.'


The basis for this claim is a GIA study that was published about a year ago, that found some pockets of beryllium in low concentration in a few sapphire samples. They did not provide a comparison with the concentrations and distribution of beryllium in known beryllium diffused samples. The report itself indicates that this is very preliminary research and it is too early to draw conclusions from it.


As always, it is best to read the original research. You'll find a summary of the GIA report here:


http://www.gia.edu/research-resources/news-from-research/Beryllium%20in%20pink%20and%20yellow%20sapphire%20%2020090401_so%20ahs.pdf


It is worth noting that the GIA labs continue to inform customers that they can identify beryllium diffused corundum using LA-ICP-MS analysis. One doubts that AIGS would be going ahead with plans to purchase a very expensive LIBS machine unless they thought it could identify beryllium-diffused stones.

Morecarats,
LIBS has it's limitations as well, doesn't it? The best machine to detect be-diffusion without a shadow of a doubt, is LA-ICP-MS, am I correct?

 

[T L]

I received some more information about these machines from a very highly respected gemological expert. Not sure if he wants me to use his name. As for the link on AIGS's site about different HT codes, he told me it is a research page, not a page describing the services provided by the lab currently.

Quote:
For your information, there are 2 instruments to check the beryllium content in sapphires: LIBS and LAICPMS. Now some blue sapphires can be beryllium treated but there are also some blue sapphire with a natural content of beryllium. If LIBS cannot alone make the difference, with LAICPMS it is possible to separate sapphires with natural beryllium from beryllium treated sapphires.

The key point you have to understand is that to my knowledge the only labs who owns a LAICPMS are some labs from the LMHC group. Some other labs are collaborating with some universities in order to test the stones they are suspicious with. Most of the small to medium labs don't have such advanced equipment.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 5/31/2010 11:45:10 AM
Author: ruffysdad

Date: 5/30/2010 11:13:01 AM

Author: arjunajane

hey Pete- just to clarify, that stone is not mine, I believe it was just a general example TL was posting for morecarats

I had purchased a spinel though from the same seller a month or two ago. I agree, many of the gems seem too good to be true, hence my trepidation.

Good luck with the early start! Is Ruffy by chance a boarder collie? I grew up with a mix as our family pup for over 12yrs, they are fabulous dogs.

Ruffy''s a jen-you-wine mutt

! He''s got some Border Collie in him but mostly Akita we think. I''ve got him registered as a BC cross but if the judges ask I tell them that he''s a Texas Border Collie (We grow ''em big in Texas!) and that''s how we can compete even though Akita''s are not considered herding dogs and therefore can''t herd. Tell that to his wall full of ribbons ''n stuff

!


I have the same problems with ebay but there are deals to be had and I know that there are a few people on this forum besides myself that list stones there. I''m just cautious as all get out and bring my highly skeptical me to the computer when I go cruising ebay.


Pete

Hey again Pete

Ha ha, I like your story about Ruffy and the competing.
Our dog was a border collie mix mutt too - we never did know exactly what with, but she looked very similar to your guy and was a lil on the bigger side too, hence the question.
My dad bought her for $50 from some people passing through when he managed a gas station when I was a little kid...that $50 I believe included a bag of food, ha!

She proved to be a fiercely intelligent, loyal, strong and kind family dog for many years.

I hear ya on the ebay thing - I am confident in my ability to buy diamonds or jewellery, but coloured gems are certainly a whole ''nother beast, and I think the info in this thread just compounds that!

 

[T L]

Date: 6/1/2010 8:54:42 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 5/31/2010 11:45:10 AM

Author: ruffysdad

Date: 5/30/2010 11:13:01 AM


Author: arjunajane


hey Pete- just to clarify, that stone is not mine, I believe it was just a general example TL was posting for morecarats

I had purchased a spinel though from the same seller a month or two ago. I agree, many of the gems seem too good to be true, hence my trepidation.


Good luck with the early start! Is Ruffy by chance a boarder collie? I grew up with a mix as our family pup for over 12yrs, they are fabulous dogs.

Ruffy's a jen-you-wine mutt

! He's got some Border Collie in him but mostly Akita we think. I've got him registered as a BC cross but if the judges ask I tell them that he's a Texas Border Collie (We grow 'em big in Texas!) and that's how we can compete even though Akita's are not considered herding dogs and therefore can't herd. Tell that to his wall full of ribbons 'n stuff

!



I have the same problems with ebay but there are deals to be had and I know that there are a few people on this forum besides myself that list stones there. I'm just cautious as all get out and bring my highly skeptical me to the computer when I go cruising ebay.



Pete

Hey again Pete

Ha ha, I like your story about Ruffy and the competing.

Our dog was a border collie mix mutt too - we never did know exactly what with, but she looked very similar to your guy and was a lil on the bigger side too, hence the question.

My dad bought her for $50 from some people passing through when he managed a gas station when I was a little kid...that $50 I believe included a bag of food, ha!

She proved to be a fiercely intelligent, loyal, strong and kind family dog for many years.


I hear ya on the ebay thing - I am confident in my ability to buy diamonds or jewellery, but coloured gems are certainly a whole 'nother beast, and I think the info in this thread just compounds that!

There are still some colored gems that can be tested by small to medium labs without issue, like garnets and spinels, and some tourmalines. However, for sapphires, rubies, and emeralds, I would stick with GIA, GRS, or AGL. I would stick with GIA for diamonds as they are one of the few places in the world that can test for synthetic diamonds which are becoming ever more diluted in the mix with natural stones. I think expensive emeralds should go to AGL only. I mention GRS as I believe they have the super expensive equipment, but don't quote me on that. AGTA is no longer open I believe.

Of course, these are just my opinions, and please feel free to disagree with them, as I was wrong about AIGS in the first place.

 

[arjunajane]

Thanks TL - for the most part, I am interested in spinels at the moment.

Apart from being completely synthesized, is there other issues I should look out for? I didn''t think there were typical treatments for spinel, but thought it a good a time as any to ask.

Don''t worry about having the wrong info on AIGS - it happens! At least now we know, right?



Another Thai lab into the mix - GHI - any info on this one, TL or morecarats? It is apparently also in Chanthaburi.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/1/2010 9:46:08 AM
Author: arjunajane
Thanks TL - for the most part, I am interested in spinels at the moment.

Apart from being completely synthesized, is there other issues I should look out for? I didn''t think there were typical treatments for spinel, but thought it a good a time as any to ask.

Don''t worry about having the wrong info on AIGS - it happens! At least now we know, right?



Another Thai lab into the mix - GHI - any info on this one, TL or morecarats? It is apparently also in Chanthaburi.

AJJ,
Last I heard, they were trying to heat spinels. I heard that although it improved clarity, the color got worse. Who knows where they are that front though. It''s fortunate we have forums like Pricescope where people try to stay on top of all the latest treatments and report them because if they find a way to synthesize or treat a gem, they''ll do it, and they''ll do it aggressively. It''s rather sad, but there are many people out there that can be easily taken advantage of.

GHI sounds like a very small lab, with only standard equipment. With what I know of them, I would not trust their ability to detect diffusion or synthesis of some gems. I could be wrong about them though. Synthetic red spinels are very difficult to tell from natural ones, as well as some padparadschas and alexandrites, from what I hear.

When in doubt, use a really large lab like GIA, AGL, GRS.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 6/1/2010 8:51:59 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I received some more information about these machines from a very highly respected gemological expert. Not sure if he wants me to use his name. As for the link on AIGS''s site about different HT codes, he told me it is a research page, not a page describing the services provided by the lab currently.


Quote:

For your information, there are 2 instruments to check the beryllium content in sapphires: LIBS and LAICPMS. Now some blue sapphires can be beryllium treated but there are also some blue sapphire with a natural content of beryllium. If LIBS cannot alone make the difference, with LAICPMS it is possible to separate sapphires with natural beryllium from beryllium treated sapphires.


The key point you have to understand is that to my knowledge the only labs who owns a LAICPMS are some labs from the LMHC group. Some other labs are collaborating with some universities in order to test the stones they are suspicious with. Most of the small to medium labs don''t have such advanced equipment.

Issues such as the relative merits of LIBS and LAICPMS for detecting beryllium diffusion in corundum are the subject of ongoing scientific research. May I request that opinions offered on these technical topics cite specific research papers rather than unnamed experts. I know some gemologists such as Vincent Pardieu at GIA think that LAICPMS has advantages, and I''m sure he would be glad to provide you with references.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/1/2010 10:04:27 AM
Author: morecarats

Date: 6/1/2010 8:51:59 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I received some more information about these machines from a very highly respected gemological expert. Not sure if he wants me to use his name. As for the link on AIGS''s site about different HT codes, he told me it is a research page, not a page describing the services provided by the lab currently.


Quote:

For your information, there are 2 instruments to check the beryllium content in sapphires: LIBS and LAICPMS. Now some blue sapphires can be beryllium treated but there are also some blue sapphire with a natural content of beryllium. If LIBS cannot alone make the difference, with LAICPMS it is possible to separate sapphires with natural beryllium from beryllium treated sapphires.


The key point you have to understand is that to my knowledge the only labs who owns a LAICPMS are some labs from the LMHC group. Some other labs are collaborating with some universities in order to test the stones they are suspicious with. Most of the small to medium labs don''t have such advanced equipment.

Issues such as the relative merits of LIBS and LAICPMS for detecting beryllium diffusion in corundum are the subject of ongoing scientific research. May I request that opinions offered on these technical topics cite specific research papers rather than unnamed experts. I know some gemologists such as Vincent Pardieu at GIA think that LAICPMS has advantages, and I''m sure he would be glad to provide you with references.

Vincent did already, thanks! I''ve been in touch with several people on this subject.

 

[colorluvr]

Date: 6/1/2010 8:42:19 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 5/31/2010 10:19:24 AM
Author: colorluvr
Personally, I''ve been satisfied with the stones I''ve gotten from gem_cove. I usually buy their stones on auction, so I have never purchased one of their BIN more expensive stones. Their photos are flattering, but I don''t think they are photoshopped, and are a pretty good representation of the stone. Here is the vendor photo of a 5.64ct spess I bought a couple of months ago and my (lousy) photo.... to compare.

thanks colorluvr for your input. If I can ask you, the fact that gem-cove uses SLP ''certs'', does this colour your opinion of them at all?

It doesn''t make me feel necessarily better or worse... it appears to be more of a convenience thing for them, rather than a "fake" lab to get around doing real testing, but I have no clue if the lab is any better or worse than say BGL.... only newer. I would say the jury is out...... but like TL, I''m probably not going to be buying any more sapphires on ebay

I have one color-change sapphire with the larger AIGS report that says "no indication of heat", so I''m hoping I can feel better about that one, but I guess I''ll never know for sure about my big yellow sapphire because it is already set and I''m not ready to spend the money to have it rechecked. It''s quite yellow, but it has no sign of orange. I thought I''d reread (just skimmed the first time) that report I linked and see if the sapphire has any of the telltale signs of BE heating under my microscope. I know it won''t prove anything, but maybe help me to learn. If it has some of the telltale signs, I''ll know it is BE heated, if it doesn''t, then I''ll just have to wonder.

I just recently bought another color-change sapphire that is also supposed to be "no treatment" and it is getting a cert as we speak, so I''ll see what happens with that one...

I''m coming to an end (for the present) of my gemstone purchases anyway, as I am running out of room and money!

 

[T L]

As for buying sapphires on ebay, I think you have to be careful about sapphires you buy from ANYONE, whether they''re on ebay or not. If you do buy a sapphire from Mr. John Doe Seller, regardless if it''s ebay or not, make sure you get a lab report from a large lab with the equipment to test for diffusion, GIT (GIT can test for it from what people tell me), GIA, AGL, or GRS. Make sure it''s explained specifically on the report that it has been tested for foreign elements and that they were not found, in other words, gentle heating, or no treatment. As for my part, I think I will just not buy sapphires anymore. They are lovely, but too much of a headache, and the ever increasing undetectable treatments are too "iffy" for me. They can use other elements asside from beryllium to diffuse stones, so who knows what else they''re using on corundum. It''s very scary.

 

[colorluvr]

Date: 6/1/2010 9:53:23 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 6/1/2010 9:46:08 AM
Author: arjunajane
Thanks TL - for the most part, I am interested in spinels at the moment.

Apart from being completely synthesized, is there other issues I should look out for? I didn''t think there were typical treatments for spinel, but thought it a good a time as any to ask.

Don''t worry about having the wrong info on AIGS - it happens! At least now we know, right?



Another Thai lab into the mix - GHI - any info on this one, TL or morecarats? It is apparently also in Chanthaburi.

AJJ,
Last I heard, they were trying to heat spinels. I heard that although it improved clarity, the color got worse. Who knows where they are that front though. It''s fortunate we have forums like Pricescope where people try to stay on top of all the latest treatments and report them because if they find a way to synthesize or treat a gem, they''ll do it, and they''ll do it aggressively. It''s rather sad, but there are many people out there that can be easily taken advantage of.

GHI sounds like a very small lab, with only standard equipment. With what I know of them, I would not trust their ability to detect diffusion or synthesis of some gems. I could be wrong about them though. Synthetic red spinels are very difficult to tell from natural ones, as well as some padparadschas and alexandrites, from what I hear.

When in doubt, use a really large lab like GIA, AGL, GRS.

I have one stone with a GHI cert, but it is a demantoid and unless they are able to synthesize horsetails in demantoids, I''m pretty confident it is a natural stone as indicated on the report.

I have a mandarin (almost Fanta but not quite according to the seller) with an AIG report and a few more spinels coming, one with an AIG and one with a BGL cert coming (supposed to be here this week), but like I said in my previous post... after that, I think I''m pretty much going to take a break from buying.

 

[colorluvr]

Date: 6/1/2010 11:00:36 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover
As for buying sapphires on ebay, I think you have to be careful about sapphires you buy from ANYONE, whether they''re on ebay or not. If you do buy a sapphire from Mr. John Doe Seller, regardless if it''s ebay or not, make sure you get a lab report from a large lab with the equipment to test for diffusion, GIT (GIT can test for it from what people tell me), GIA, AGL, or GRS. Make sure it''s explained specifically on the report that it has been tested for foreign elements and that they were not found, in other words, gentle heating, or no treatment. As for my part, I think I will just not buy sapphires anymore. They are lovely, but too much of a headache, and the ever increasing undetectable treatments are too ''iffy'' for me. They can use other elements asside from beryllium to diffuse stones, so who knows what else they''re using on corundum. It''s very scary.

I totally agree.

Correct me if I''m wrong... if a lab, such as AIGS states that there is no indication of heat or any other treatment (in a sapphire), then I can feel more comfortable.. the problem is when they say "heat" because there is no way (without the expensive equipment) to tell if it is only gentle heat or the more aggressive treatments such as BE. Is that correct?

 

[T L]

Date: 6/1/2010 11:19:35 AM
Author: colorluvr

I totally agree.

Correct me if I''m wrong... if a lab, such as AIGS states that there is no indication of heat or any other treatment (in a sapphire), then I can feel more comfortable.. the problem is when they say ''heat'' because there is no way (without the expensive equipment) to tell if it is only gentle heat or the more aggressive treatments such as BE. Is that correct?

That''s what I understand, yes.