SLP Gem Laboratory

[LimitedGems]

Because I had a "locked" payment standing in my PayPal Account because I was waiting to receive a gemstone from them.

They never sent the gemstone, they did only send me INSTRUCTION Manuals to a microwave or something to get a Tracking Number to give PayPal. They fooled the system, PayPal emptied my PayPal account and gave them my money, and then blocked my account. They fooled PayPal because of the tracking number, and PayPal ruled in their favour even AFTER I provided Police Report and everything.

They made me look like a criminal to PayPal, like I was trying to fool them. Claiming I had received the gemstone and everything, that was a LIE. It was the Thai company that tricked both me and PayPal!

I never received the gemstone, they stole my money, I personally ....... them!

 

[Edward Bristol]

wow, that's a new trick to me.

very sophisticated if they got away with it. normally it is always the vendor holding the bag in the end.

 

[chrono]

LimitedGems,
That is shocking and I am sorry you were scammed. Thank you for sharing your horrible experience.

 

[T L]

Minou,
Check this out. This is a study by GIA. The answer you are looking for is in the last paragraph.
http://www.gia.edu/doi/10_5741-GEMS_40_4_314

ETA
I am having trouble linking to the LA-ICP-MS GIA paper. In short:
LA-ICP-MS- more accurate, smaller laser hole (less damage to the stone) and yes, able to detect more, thereby give a better guess as to the origin.

Found it. As usual, see the chart at the very end of the paper to see a side by side comparison of LA-ICP-MS, SIMS and LIBS.
http://www.gia.edu/doi/10_5741-GEMS_42_2_98

Yes, thanks! I am familiar with the articles and understood there to be differences between the two. Perhaps I was reading TL's statement incorrectly, but I *thought* she was saying that LIBS is not as accurate as mass spectrometry in identifying diffusion, which is why I was hoping she could answer. There are large differences in capabilities between machines, no doubt, but the one I would imagine most of us consumers care about is whether the machines can accurately identify introduction of foreign substances and any compromising of the crystal structure through lattice diffusion. TL, did I read too much into your answer?

Yes, I confirmed that fact when I spoke with Chris Smith of AGL, but I don't have my email correspondence with him any longer.

The LA-ICP-MS is more sensitive than LIBS per table 6 in this pdf from the GIA. I would include the link here, but I cannot get it to work. You can find this PDF by searching under google, "LA-ICP-MS to gemology GIA" and there is a whole section on LIBS vs LA-ICP-MS in there.

As gemstone treatment gets more and more sophisticated, I would want the most state of the art equipment on a valuable sapphire, as the LA-ICP-MS can detect smaller amounts of beryllium than LIBS per the PDF I recommended. Therefore it is possible that some diffused sapphires might have fallen through the cracks with LIBS, which otherwise would have been detected with LA-ICP-MS. LA-ICP-MS can detect trace levels of BE (0.1 ppm in corundum), and LIBS down to around 2 ppm (see table below).

A lot of labs cannot afford LA-ICP-MS, so they use LIBS instead.

 

[soopag123]

Hello all, I am a newby and have only been lurking a few days. Thank you for all the information posted.


Limited Gems or TL: does this mean odysseygem sapphires cannot be trusted as natural/ unheated? I have been looking at Tan's ebay store. I ordered an AIGS report but have not bought the stone. I contacted Tan by email yesterday and Im still waiting for a reply.

TL: Based on your last post, AIGS cannot be trusted 100% to catch BE heated sapphires. Should I cancel my request for an AIGS report and ask Tan for a refund for that item? How long does it normally take him these days to respond to emails?

 

[T L]

Hello all, I am a newby and have only been lurking a few days. Thank you for all the information posted.


Limited Gems or TL: does this mean odysseygem sapphires cannot be trusted as natural/ unheated? I have been looking at Tan's ebay store. I ordered an AIGS report but have not bought the stone. I contacted Tan by email yesterday and Im still waiting for a reply.

TL: Based on your last post, AIGS cannot be trusted 100% to catch BE heated sapphires. Should I cancel my request for an AIGS report and ask Tan for a refund for that item? How long does it normally take him these days to respond to emails?

I ordered two sapphires from Tan, both with AIGS reports stating heated only, but AIGS couldn't confirm to me whether they had diffusion. Therefore I sent both to AGL, and one came back as heated only with diagnostic testing. The other one came back as heated only but had to be tested with an LA-ICP-MS machine at an additional cost. Both checked out as Tan advertised them to be. I'm not sure if AIGS has an LIBS at the current time, I've heard conflicting information, but if they do, that's more reassuring.

I prefer LA-ICP-MS, but many say LIBS is sufficient.

I have had nothing but extremely good experiences with Tan. He did have a stroke a few years ago, and communication was an issue at that time, but as far as I'm concerned, he's an honest dealer, and treats his customers with respect. He also charges fair prices for his material, and as far as I know, no one has had a major issue with a refund. I have lab reports for several of his gems, and they all came back as advertised, including the two I sent to AGL.

Now, someone did get a sapphire from Tan that turned out to be unheated via AIGS, but GIA or AGL (I forget) stated it was heated. That person got a refund from Tan. The issue is that lab reports are opinions, and not all opinions are the same. People think these things are written in stone, but not all labs or gemologists for that matter, are created equal. For expensive rubies, sapphires and emeralds, I would only go with the best - AGL.

 

[soopag123]

Limited Gems: Im sorry you got scammed by an unscrupulous Thai vendor. I think since you posted how that happened, people should now think twice about using PP to pay for stones and use credit card instead. I am also thinking of your story for my next purchase. I don't know if you want to spend the money to get legal help or how long ago this happened. It seems to me that when Ebay makes a mistake of this nature, there should be a legal option. Small claims court in US covers loss up to 15K now. Have you taken any legal action against Ebay? It does not seem fair that they took the side of the vendor.


TL: thanks for the advice. I bought an AIGS report. Am I supposed to wait for the report to arrive before buying the stone? Sounds like you are saying that it maybe ok to buy it and then ask for a refund if the report comes back as heated/diffusion.

Chrono: I heard you made the purchase of a stone contingent upon the report results. How do I make that agreement with Tan if he does not reply to my emails? It has only been 2 days since I emailed him. I read on this forum he had a stroke in 2010, but does he reply personally or is it his staff??

TL or Chrono: His Ebay store price differs from his online store price. How do I negotiate with him? by email? phone? I like the Ebay price better

 

[T L]

TL: thanks for the advice. I bought an AIGS report. Am I supposed to wait for the report to arrive before buying the stone? Sounds like you are saying that it maybe ok to buy it and then ask for a refund if the report comes back as heated/diffusion.

Double check with Tan. If you do send it to AGL, and it comes back other than advertised, then I would ask him if he would refund. Do I trust AIGS for sapphires?? Not really. This is from my own experience and from others. I do trust them for other types of gems though, like spinels, chrysoberyls, and garnets, but not corundum.

 

[LD]

Hang on a sec - isn't Odyssey gems owned by Tan? If so, he was very very very reliable and accurate and nearly everything I bought from him was backed up by a lab report (AGL/AIGS) if I wanted it. He also was very good about accepting things back if I didn't like the gem when it arrived.

I know he was very ill a few years ago and it may be that the store has changed hands but to call him a liar is not good especially when a lot of us on this forum (especially a few years ago) had some wonderful / lab reported stones from him. As I say, things may have changed.

In terms of a thread on labs - we did have one several years ago because I remember I posted several lab reports.

 

[chrono]

Have you heard back from Tan? Sometimes the response is quick, sometimes it takes a bit more time. If the stone is unheated, than a AIGS is quite safe because it means there is no risk of diffusion. But like TL, I would only use AIGS for stones like garnet, tourmaline and spinel (except reds).

 

[soopag123]

Chrono: Thanks for checking in on this topic. I finally heard back from Tan 3 days ago. He emailed me the following:

I do not understand why you keep delaying to buy this Yellow Sapphire. Our team already sent this gem for the brief report and the result no indications of heat treatment!! Now what yu want us to do with this brief report?We cannot change the report


- odysseygem

I purchased the AIGS gem brief instead of the identification report. Should I purchase since he says the brief states the stone is unheated?

TL: I will ask him to mail me the stone and I will return for refund if AGL report states heat treatment or diffusion. Or is the gem brief stating unheated good enough?

 

[T L]

Chrono: Thanks for checking in on this topic. I finally heard back from Tan 3 days ago. He emailed me the following:

I do not understand why you keep delaying to buy this Yellow Sapphire. Our team already sent this gem for the brief report and the result no indications of heat treatment!! Now what yu want us to do with this brief report?We cannot change the report


- odysseygem

I purchased the AIGS gem brief instead of the identification report. Should I purchase since he says the brief states the stone is unheated?

TL: I will ask him to mail me the stone and I will return for refund if AGL report states heat treatment or diffusion. Or is the gem brief stating unheated good enough?

It depends on how expensive it was and how much you care about heat treatment. Yellow sapphires are so "iffy" to me that I would personally send it to AGL. It's up to you though.

 

[chrono]

It sounds like you weren't clear upfront, so Tan understood it to be that if it comes back as unheated from AIGS, you are obligated to purchase the yellow sapphire. If so, then you have to hold up your end of the agreement. If you are concerned about the stone being heated/diffused (missed by AIGS), you have to send it to AGL yourself and risk it. I don't think AGL will be able to turn around the stone within the return period and as TL said, if the stone is inexpensive, it may not be worth the time, cost and hassle.

 

[soopag123]

TL: The AIGS website shows they use FTIR and AGL confirmed that is the method to determine heated versus not heated. I don't know when they added that machine. Is it safe to say this gemstone brief is more likely to be accurate since they use the same equipment as AGL?

Chrono: I did not have any communication with Tan after purchasing the brief report so we did not have a written or any formal agreement between us that purchasing the stone would be contingent upon the brief report itself. My original intention was to purchase the gem contingent upon the identification report but I ordered the wrong one. I just did not get any communication in email from him that we had such an agreement. Now that I know AIGS uses FTIR, I need advice whether or not to move forward with this purchase. Please advise.

 

[chrono]

You requested a lab report, so the agreement to purchase, pending the result is implicit. FT-IR can eliminate the possibility of diffusion because the high temperature used eliminates the water that is trapped, hence the peak loss can be measured. This does not eliminate the possibility of "low" temperature heating. After FT-IR testing, is up to the gemmologist to interpret the result.
http://grjapan.ddo.jp/gaaj_report/2005a/2005_09a-01e.html

 

[soopag123]

FTIR shows no heating. so that means no high heat eg diffusion. but does not exclude low heat. If that is true, I can live with that.
The stone is not expensive but I am using it as a good luck charm so it really matters that it has to be untreated.

 

[soopag123]

Chrono: Tan says the gem brief shows no heating. But he has not yet emailed me a photo of the gem brief report as I had asked him to do 2 days ago. Which means, the gem brief has not yet arrived. Yet he claims it will show no heating. So implicit or not, I am not yet obligated to purchase this stone until I receive the gem brief report stating "no heat treatment". From what I read about AIGS, it takes some time to do even a gem brief report. I had just ordered one last week, so I was surprised Tan says he already received it. Yet he has not mailed me any image of it. That is how I know the gem brief report is not yet available.

 

[chrono]

Lab turnaround times will vary, sometimes taking a few days up to a few weeks. I have never asked for photographic proof of a lab report from Tan (or any other vendor, for that matter) for inexpensive stones. I am sorry to tell you that you are being a rather difficult customer. Vendors do not have time to take photos or videos of everything their customers ask for, especially smaller or single-person run businesses.

 

[pregcurious]

Just wanted to say that I had a very good experience with Tan. I emailed him about 2 or 3 blue sapphires and he always responded back to me in a few days. I never said I was from PS.

I ended up buying a blue sapphire from him as heated, after specifically asking and hearing from Tan's store that it was not BE-diffused. I purchased without a certificate because I wanted to send it to AGL to test for BE-diffusion (TL, I pay attention to your posts). Tan's store assured me that they would take it back even after the return period if it was BE-treated. I sent it to AGL, and AGL concluded that is unheated (the stone has inclusions, obviously). So, I have nothing but good things to say about Tan's stores. Here's the stone:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pear-sapphire.194201/?hilit=sapphire']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pear-sapphire.194201/?hilit=sapphire[/URL]

Limitedgems, this is the first I have heard something this negative about Tan's stores in all the years I have been on PS. Based on your account, however, I will be videotaping the opening of any boxes from Tan's stores in the future. I think It is the only way to prove that a stone was or was not sent. I am planning to make another purchase this fall. I am inclined to think that Tan himself is still an honest man and that there might be a dishonest staff member at his store. I believe that Tan shows at the Hong Kong Gem Show? I think it is not worth it to him to be dishonest as it will ruin his livelihood.

The only negative comment I have about Tan's stores is that they did not answer all my questions, but basically answered that the stone was not BE-diffused, it is best that I see the gem in person, the stone looked as as shown in the video, and there was a refund policy if I sent it out (to AGL) and it was not as represented. I was okay with that response because I am sure he cannot spend all his time answering emails. Being an Ebay seller myself, I know it takes time. I have even had the USPS lose a package that I sent out (and of course I gave a full refund).

Finally, I limit the monetary amount of any purchases I make on Ebay to minimize my risk. I keep it to lower 3 figures.

 

[soopag123]

the gem I am about to purchase is the upper limit of 3 figures. it may not be a large amount to other members of this forum, but it is to me. what matters more is that this gem is more important to me than what it is worth. I am counting on this gem to get me through a difficult time. I am trying to refinance a home, dealing with a difficult family member, about to take an important exam. all these things could not happen at the most inopportune time. I am simply being cautious with my limited resources and doing my due diligence. no one else on this forum could be responsible for my choice if I do not do my own due diligence. that is what I learned from limitedgems. I agree with pregcurious that he may have been a victim possibly of someone in Tan's employment. I listen to everyone and identify the most relevant posts so that I have the best information to make an informed purchase since I have no experience whatsoever in the field of colored stones. just a string of unfortunate circumstances brought me to this forum so that I can purchase what I need from a reputable vendor. I do appreciate all the input I have received thus far. at a later time when things calm down hopefully within 2 months, I will be happy to post pictures of my purchase. until then, thank you all for the input.

 

[chrono]

I phrased my advice as such above because you wrote that the stone is not expensive (see below).

FTIR shows no heating. so that means no high heat eg diffusion. but does not exclude low heat. If that is true, I can live with that. The stone is not expensive but I am using it as a good luck charm so it really matters that it has to be untreated.

However, in your latest post, you wrote that it is an expensive stone, ranging in the upper limit of 3 figures, which makes a big difference. In seriousness, I would not purchase expensive stones from ANYONE, especially sapphires, which are commonly treated in all sorts of manner without proper verification, and for me, if it being untreated matters that much, I would it sent to GIA instead since I don't think Tan sends stones to AGL.

the gem I am about to purchase is the upper limit of 3 figures. it may not be a large amount to other members of this forum, but it is to me. what matters more is that this gem is more important to me than what it is worth. I am counting on this gem to get me through a difficult time. I am trying to refinance a home, dealing with a difficult family member, about to take an important exam. all these things could not happen at the most inopportune time. I am simply being cautious with my limited resources and doing my due diligence. no one else on this forum could be responsible for my choice if I do not do my own due diligence. that is what I learned from limitedgems. I agree with pregcurious that he may have been a victim possibly of someone in Tan's employment. I listen to everyone and identify the most relevant posts so that I have the best information to make an informed purchase since I have no experience whatsoever in the field of colored stones. just a string of unfortunate circumstances brought me to this forum so that I can purchase what I need from a reputable vendor. I do appreciate all the input I have received thus far. at a later time when things calm down hopefully within 2 months, I will be happy to post pictures of my purchase. until then, thank you all for the input.