So confused!!

[chocolatefudge]

Hi Everyone,

I haven''t started a thread on here for a while because I''ve been trying to calm down and go with the flow. My SO of almost 7 years announced on New Year''s Eve that we would get engaged during 2008. He was rather tipsy at the time and whispered it to me at midnight. I was REALLY happy and decided that I would stop talking about the whole thing and just wait for it to happen........

Anyway a week ago we were at his parents house and his dad was asking us something about our house. We are renting at the moment and my SO said to his dad that he would like to buy a house this year. I was a little surprised as we had been talking about renting for a while longer as it''s much cheaper than a mortgage would be and I thought that we could save for a wedding and then buy somewhere after getting married. I asked him about this in the car on the way home and he said he wanted to move this year as prices were falling and if we waited too long they may go up again. I said in a really small voice, "But I thought we were getting married?" To which he said that we could put that back and did it really matter?!?!?

I freaked out a bit and got really upset and said it wasn''t fair to make promises and then keep making me wait longer. We ended up going to bed not speaking.

I thought about it the next day and saw that he did have a point, we should really look at buying...... But I''m just so disappointed!! We haven''t talked about the engagement since but I have looked at some houses. I don''t know what to do!! I''m worried that we would struggle to afford to pay for a wedding if we were paying so much towards a mortgage. Also we would have to save up for a deposit for a house so there goes ring money..... I just don''t know!!

My birthday is next week and I was praying for a proposal but we have nothing special planned apart from some family coming for tea and I know he wouldn''t do it then. Then there''s Valentine''s Day but I don''t even know why I''m getting my hopes up!!

Am I being unreasonable?? I don''t know what to do!!

 

[designchica]

I can see why you are confused. It sounds like he feels like you''ve waited this long, what''s another year in the big scheme of things. Maybe you two could get engaged and have a long engagement to save up for the wedding and still have money for the house. that way everyone is happy.

 

[bee*]

I don''t think you''re being unreasonable in terms of if you had talked about getting married in 2008. However what''s to stop you getting engaged this year, buying a house and then getting married next year or the year after when you have enough money saved for the wedding? If he can''t afford your dream ring now then he could always propose now with a smaller ring and then upgrade it in a few years. I do think it''s sensible to get a house however hopefully that won''t stop you two moving on with your relationship too and getting engaged.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Please, please, please don''t buy a house with this man before having at least a ring on your finger and a wedding date! Engagement/marriage seems to be very important to you, and it''s stressing you out that you''re not engaged after 7 years. There is nothing more important than your sanity, and for you to feel secure and comfortable with your relationship -- getting a house a few thousand dollars cheaper is NOT WORTH IT.

It''s ok for you to set boundaries in your relationship. If you don''t want to buy a house before you are engaged/married then don''t, and make that clear to your bf. At this rate there will always be something that is "more important" or "more prudent" than a ring, engagement, and wedding. When you buy your house, how long will it take you to save up for a wedding and a ring when you''re paying a mortgage that is more expensive that what you pay right now?

If you want marriage, put your foot down. And you''re right, it is NOT OK to make you promises and then dismiss for any reason without talking to you about it first. If you''re not ok with it, then it''s a no go!

 

[chocolatefudge]

Thanks for your replies. To be honest (and I know this isn''t the right site to say this on!) I''m not actually too bothered about the ring!! To have him propose would just be so fantastic!! Of course I want a ring but the cost/ size of diamond doesn''t bother me, as long as it was the style I like. I suppose we could get engaged, move and then get married, I''m just worried about affording it all! When I''ve looked how much we would be paying per month for the mortgage I''m worried there wouldn''t be a lot left to put towards a wedding!
Just wish it would happen I began to think maybe he was stalling me and NEVER wanted to get married but he gets really annoyed when I say that! Why are men so slow?!?!

 

[chocolatefudge]

Thanks Brooklyngirl, replied before I read your post. I''ve been thinking the same thing but don''t keep wanting to cause arguments. It''s not that I would object to living together before being engaged (we are already) but I would like to know that we would DEFINITELY be engaged soon. Deep in my heart I THINK that we will but then I keep having doubts...... I really don''t know how to feel. I''ve had a really stressful week at work this week and so we haven''t discussed it but I suppose I will have to bring it up again soon.

Sometimes I worry that he has a surprise planned and he''s trying to put me off the scent and if I keep on and on I''ll spoil it. And then I think I''m stupid for thinking that because I''ve been thinking it for years and it never happens Does anyone else ever think things like this or have I driven myself insane?

 

[idreamofice]

Hi ChocolateFudge,

I don''t think you are being unreasonable at all. I know it can be dissapointing but you guys are buying a house together!

That is super exciting and it sounds like you guys are moving in the right direction. You guys could save for a ring and wedding after the house purchase and have a longer engagement....I''m really not good in the advice department but I hope you feel better...

 

[brooklyngirl]

Date: 1/24/2008 2:55:11 PM
Author: chocolatefudge
Thanks for your replies. To be honest (and I know this isn''t the right site to say this on!) I''m not actually too bothered about the ring!! To have him propose would just be so fantastic!! Of course I want a ring but the cost/ size of diamond doesn''t bother me, as long as it was the style I like. I suppose we could get engaged, move and then get married, I''m just worried about affording it all! When I''ve looked how much we would be paying per month for the mortgage I''m worried there wouldn''t be a lot left to put towards a wedding!
Just wish it would happen I began to think maybe he was stalling me and NEVER wanted to get married but he gets really annoyed when I say that! Why are men so slow?!?!

I''m sorry if my post alluded to needing a ring, I suppose I misspoke. What I meant to say is that there should be a firm commitment from your bf (ring or no ring) before you buy a house together, because you really seem uncomfortable with the idea and how it will affect your plans for a wedding.

I think men are slow about these things because women allow them to be. Think about it, you''re living together, and probably are husband and wife in practice. He is essentially able to get everything he wants without having to get married, so why change things? I''m sure the situation would be drastically different if you didn''t live together, and you refused to because there is no formal commitment.

What i am trying to say is that boundaries should be established as to what you are and are not comfortable doing before marriage. If he sees immediate need to get married, marriage will be #1 on his list, as it is on yours.

 

[chocolatefudge]

Sorry Brooklyngirl, I wasn''t meaning to reply to your post about the ring. I was saying that I wouldn''t be upset about having a small ring, I wouldn''t want to upgrade in a few years, this wouldn''t bother me. It was something I saw on a reply from someone else. Your advice was great, thanks

I suppose I''d better have another chat with him...... Just always seems to end the same way! Him telling me that we will get engaged, me getting upset about how long it''s taking and how he keeps saying the same thing but nothing happens, then I either cry and he says nice things or he gets annoyed and tells me he''s sick of me talking about it!

 

[brooklyngirl]

Date: 1/24/2008 2:59:35 PM
Author: chocolatefudge
Thanks Brooklyngirl, replied before I read your post. I''ve been thinking the same thing but don''t keep wanting to cause arguments. It''s not that I would object to living together before being engaged (we are already) but I would like to know that we would DEFINITELY be engaged soon. Deep in my heart I THINK that we will but then I keep having doubts...... I really don''t know how to feel. I''ve had a really stressful week at work this week and so we haven''t discussed it but I suppose I will have to bring it up again soon.

Sometimes I worry that he has a surprise planned and he''s trying to put me off the scent and if I keep on and on I''ll spoil it. And then I think I''m stupid for thinking that because I''ve been thinking it for years and it never happens Does anyone else ever think things like this or have I driven myself insane?

I completely empathize with your sitation because I was in the same exact boat. BF and I live together (rent) and he was adamant about wanting to buy a house or move to the west coast (as you can tell by my sn, we live in NY). I told him that this could not and would not happen without an engagement, and if it were to come down to it, I would stay behind.

There were a lot of weird (flawed logic) conversations surrounding this, as follows:

BF: brooklyngirl, I want to move to the west coast
ME: I don''t see how that''s possible since we''re not even engaged yet, and I don''t see that you have plans for that happening anytime soon. Why would I leave behind my friends and family to move 3000 miles away for my*bf*?
BF: I would feel bad asking you to move so far away if we were married / engaged.
ME: You what? How does that makes sense???

BF: I suppose you have a point

Needless to say that conversation has not come up again until we started ring shopping, and purchased the ring.


As far as being afraid to spoil the surprise... don''t worry he will get around any spoiling that you might do. I cannot stress enough for you to not go into such a huge commitment as a 30 year mortgage with BF if you have the slightest doubt about his plans. When you make such a concrete decision with someone, there should be concrete commitment from that person.

P.S. I''m definitely not saying that couples shouldnt'' live together before marriage. In fact I think they should. However, such an arrangement must come with a plan for your future together, so that you''re not left wondering whether he will propose, or how long you have to wait. It has to be clear to him that in terms of moving forward with your lives *together* lack of official commitment is is a deal breaker.

P.S.S. Sorry for the long winded post.

 

[bee*]

Date: 1/24/2008 3:20:17 PM
Author: chocolatefudge

I suppose I''d better have another chat with him...... Just always seems to end the same way! Him telling me that we will get engaged, me getting upset about how long it''s taking and how he keeps saying the same thing but nothing happens, then I either cry and he says nice things or he gets annoyed and tells me he''s sick of me talking about it!

I would definitely sit down and have another chat with him and just make sure that it will happen. Personally I''d be a bit wary signing up for a mortgage without being engaged.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Date: 1/24/2008 3:20:17 PM
Author: chocolatefudge
Sorry Brooklyngirl, I wasn't meaning to reply to your post about the ring. I was saying that I wouldn't be upset about having a small ring, I wouldn't want to upgrade in a few years, this wouldn't bother me. It was something I saw on a reply from someone else. Your advice was great, thanks

I suppose I'd better have another chat with him...... Just always seems to end the same way! Him telling me that we will get engaged, me getting upset about how long it's taking and how he keeps saying the same thing but nothing happens, then I either cry and he says nice things or he gets annoyed and tells me he's sick of me talking about it!

I'm glad you'll be having another chat with him. But it's important that this talk is not emotional, and that both of you are level headed about it. It doesn't feel to me (from your posts) that he doesn't want to marry you or is trying to string you along or doesn't love you enough. It just feels to me that it's not on his priority list. That is nothing to be sad about. It's all about arranging your priorities as a couple. You will have to do a lot of this once you're married, so why not start now? Think of it as laying you your expectations, and what you perceive as a *requirement* for this relationship to move forward. Again, do this in a very practical manner, without getting emotional about it. And don't do anything that you're uncomfortable with. I'm sure he will understand your position if you put it to him that way. I am sure at some point or another he felt uncomfortable about marriage. Well, you feel uncomfortable about buying a house with a man you're not married to. Plain and simple.

 

[~*Alexis*~]

The only thing I can say is this... You need to sit that boy down and talk it out. You need to tell him before you make a 30 yr financial commitment you need a 60 year marriage commitment. Sometimes men dont see things that way we do. You need to lay it out on the table. However, I do think he should have at least discussed buying a house with you before he brought it up to his family. That to me was disrespectful, he cant read your mind, no more so than you can read his, however in the end constantly arguing will not solve the situation. If it would help, write a letter. Somethings things sound better written out rather than spoken.

 

[chocolatefudge]

Well we had discussed buying a house, I just didn''t think it was happening yet as I wanted to save for wedding. I don''t want to feel like I''m nagging all the time! He just seems to think that I should accept that he''s said that he WILL ask me and I should just wait for it and stop rushing things..... I don''t know.... Feel like I''m not making sense now, but in my head I know what I want to say!

 

[idreamofice]

I guess I''m in the minority when it comes to buying a house with your bf before marrige/engagement?

My FI and I bought a house together about a year and a half ago before we were engaged. I saw it as a bigger commitment to each other...I wasn''t concerned at all. Also, why do you guys have to put a deposit down? We negotiated to where the seller paid the closing costs and some how we ended up with a check for 500.00 after the closing...

If you feel really strongly about wanting an engagement first, then I do agree with the other ladies here to have a talk with your bf. Good luck!

 

[chocolatefudge]

It''s not that I object too much to buying the house before getting engaged, it''s just that it means waiting even longer for a proposal.......

 

[idreamofice]

Date: 1/24/2008 3:56:29 PM
Author: chocolatefudge
It''s not that I object too much to buying the house before getting engaged, it''s just that it means waiting even longer for a proposal.......

Maybe you could bring up the fact that it will be cheaper to buy a house as a married couple....application fees....taxes...

 

[~*Alexis*~]

Date: 1/24/2008 3:59:25 PM
Author: idreamofice

Date: 1/24/2008 3:56:29 PM
Author: chocolatefudge
It''s not that I object too much to buying the house before getting engaged, it''s just that it means waiting even longer for a proposal.......

Maybe you could bring up the fact that it will be cheaper to buy a house as a married couple....application fees....taxes...

True, but perhaps he just does not realize how much the ring and the wedding will cost either....you should ask him what is budget is too...he probalby thinks its only a few hundred bucks!

 

[chocolatefudge]

I didn''t know about that being cheaper! Is that true in all countries? I live in UK

 

[bee*]

I don''t think so. I live in Ireland and it''s not cheaper here for us. We can claim different taxes when we''re married but in terms of buying a house, same fee. Our tax relief is double though but that doesn''t save us too much.

 

[idreamofice]

I''m not sure about buying in the UK....oops I guess I just ASSumed you were here in the states

. I''m in Texas so even though we are not legally married yet, we can file common law marriage for tax and med insurance purposes. Maybe you could look into it a little more it might me worth it. Sorry for the misunderstanding..

 

[QOTDR]

Personnally , I wouldn''t buy a house together until you are engaged. You''ve waited 7 years so far. I can only see another 7 added on to that if you buy a house together. If he is willing to commit to a 30 year mortgage, what is he waiting for to propose?? I''ve seen too many friends I know lately do this and then they split up because there is no porposal and have a hassle selling the house. One friend had to declare bankrupcy and had the house forclosed when she and bf split up. They couldn''t sell the house in this market and neither could afford the payments. Really messy situation.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 1/24/2008 3:25:54 PM
Author: bee*

I would definitely sit down and have another chat with him and just make sure that it will happen. Personally I''d be a bit wary signing up for a mortgage without being engaged.

I''ll go this one further: I would have to be engaged before I moved in with my boyfriend, but no way would I buy something with him if I were not married first. I only say this for legal and common-sense reasons.

#1, if you are married, in most states, your assets are joint. Not if you''re merely engaged. Also, if the man dies (God forbid), you will not automatically inherit his portion of the house - his next of kin would, unless you were his beneficiary. If you are not, because he''s unmarried, the beneficiary would probably be his folks. Would you want his family controlling your life or possibly having the power to eject you from your own house? I hate to sound alarmist, but it does happen.

#2, while you can get divorced, engagements can be broken much easier. No matter how secure your relationship is, realistically, something could always happen. And then, if he can''t afford to buy you out, you would have to get a court order to sell the house (which can take a while to get on the court calendar, as opposed to it usually being automatic in a divorce) -- or, you''d have to live in it with him until it sold. Or the worst case scenario - leaving to get out and then paying two mortgages and/or a mortgage and a rent. Much more complicated and angst-producing to resolve if you''re not married as opposed to divorcing.

I learned a whole lot about finances when I was married - what to do and what not to do. My mother taught me never to merge my finances with a man. She was widowed at 29 - my father managed all the money and just doled out to her what she needed, and she had several bad shocks after he died (ie - bills she did not know about, creditors seizing their bank account, etc). It''s OK to buy a house together, but make sure you have money, credit and assets solely in your own name, too. I can''t tell you all the horror stories I''ve heard from and about women whose husbands'' poor money management drained them or who got the short end of the stick in a divorce or after being widowed. The attorney that did my divorce told me that the smartest thing I did during my marriage was NOT merging finances. Every woman, regardless of her age and situation needs two things: a) her own money that only she controls and b) an education and/or a way to support herself. You also make much better choices and are more of an equal partner when you don''t have to ask someone permission or depend on someone else to take care of you.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Date: 1/24/2008 3:51:51 PM
Author: chocolatefudge
Well we had discussed buying a house, I just didn''t think it was happening yet as I wanted to save for wedding. I don''t want to feel like I''m nagging all the time! He just seems to think that I should accept that he''s said that he WILL ask me and I should just wait for it and stop rushing things..... I don''t know.... Feel like I''m not making sense now, but in my head I know what I want to say!

Maybe he feels that way, but it should be made clear to him that you make decisions based on the current circumstances, not on what will be or could be. Isn''t he rushing things in regard to buying a house before you are ready (due to lack of commitment)?

FWIW, I think you make perfect sense, and are being smart about the situation.

RE nagging, don''t nag. If he brings it up, give him your thoughts on it, and your answer. This way, you''re not the one that''s nagging

.

At the very least, you guys should discuss all of the things that you will need lots of money for in the coming years, and determine a timeline for each of those things to occur. And don''t lose sight of what you want for your future and this relationship in the process.

 

[beebrisk]

I couldn''t agree with Brooklyn Girl more (maybe it''s a NY''er thing)

Please don''t consider home=ownership with your BF before you have a definite plan...a ring, a date.

If becoming ''financially committed'' to him means putting off the "real" commitment-the one that is so very important to you, then I fear you are headed right down the road of unhappiness.

Please don''t give up the things that mean the most to you in exchange for mortgage. There isn''t a financial advisor in the world who won''t tell you that the number one reason couples fall apart is over money issues.

A house can wait...My fear is that if a house makes YOU wait, you will undoubtedly become resentful, hurt and ultimately miserable (I know that''s how I would feel!) How can that be good for any relationship?

Couples have been getting engaged, married and THEN saving for a house for generations (isn''t that how most of our moms and grandmoms did it?). So what if real estate and interest rates go up in the meantime?
At least you''ll be in it together...really together.

Best of luck to you!

 

[gwendolyn]

chocolatefudge (yummy name, by the way),

I have a question about part of your original post. In it you said: "I said in a really small voice, "But I thought we were getting married?" To which he said that we could put that back and did it really matter?!?!?"

Were those his exact words, "does it really matter?" about getting engaged/married? Because if so...I think that would make me seriously think. If you were just paraphrasing and putting your own interpretations in there, where it felt like maybe that''s what he meant but didn''t actually say that, then I might not be so worried in your shoes (I tend to read into things a lot so I''ve learned to not put so much emphasis on my interpretations of conversations when I''m really emotional, otherwise I''d drive myself bonkers

). But if he said "Does it really matter?" about when (I''m guessing not ''if'') you get married...I dunno, I feel kind of wary about how many big decisions he''s making for both of you without your input. Because to you it DOES matter, so why talk down to you like what you want is secondary?

Again, maybe I''m reading into it, but those are my thoughts.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Ditto to what beebrisk and gwendolyn said.

In my own relationship I have known misery that stemmed from us living together, and there being no sign of engagement/marriage in the reasonably near future. It''s an awful feeling to feel like you''re stuck and have no control. The worst part is that the person who is supposedly closest to you is not willing to meet you half way, and is unable to see miserable you are. I can wholeheartedly say that I would not wish that on anyone, and I certainly hope you won''t have to go through that.

It seems to me a woman''s real power in the relationship is that she can leave easily if her expectations are not met. I''m not naive (sp) enough to say that leaving is easy, as I know very well that it''s not -- but it is that much harder when you share a 30 year financial commitment with this other person.

Your feelings regarding where the relationship is going and when it will get there as just as important as his, and are not to be dismissed so easily. Just because bf wants a house now, whatever the reason, does not mean that that''s the way things will be without any input from you. If he really wants to be married, and wants you guys to be a family, it''s high time he start acting the part and taking your feelings/ideas into serious consideration. These decisions affect both of you and need to be made such that both of you are comfortable.

Buying a first house is one of the most exciting experiences you''ll have as a couple, would you really want to look back 5 years down the road and regret it?

 

[HollyS]

I know I''m older, I''m more old-fashioned, I''m conservative, I''m fairly religious, so my opinion is colored by these things . . . . but WHY would ANYONE buy a house and tie themselves financially to someone to whom they are not married, engaged, or have a mutual understanding/commitment of a long-term life partner relationship???

Putting the cart before the horse (to use a cliche), whether that cart is children, or houses, prior to marriage or commitment, is just not good thinking. And, frankly, I don''t want to hear from everybody about how judgemental I''m being. It IS NOT the right way to do things, and I''m not speaking from a moral standpoint.

There is a valid point to lesbian/gay couples wanting the right to marry. They understand that the are *less* as a couple, and therefore vulnerable to legal issues, healthcare issues, financial issues, etc. without a marriage/civil union. They know that society views committed couples differently -- perhaps especially them.

Marriage or a at least the understanding of a life time commitment should be essential to any woman before she legally/financially binds herself to another person. You made it clear in your post that you expect marriage from this relationship, not just living together. Do not settle for less than you want and need. "Someday we''ll marry" is not a commitment.

I would not buy the house together.

 

[chocolatefudge]

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the replies. Just got in from work but SO not in yet. We are going out for something to eat tonight so I will try and broach the subject in a place where neither of us can get upset and start ranting!
I understand that many people feel that we shouldn''t live together until married but I love living with him so much!! He''s been really happy too. He was never emotionally ready for marriage, it''s only since living together that he said he really was.
I will let you know what happens later!

 

[alyson423]

Hi Chocolatefudge

:

I know I''m late to the bandwagon but I thought I''d bring up something I haven''t seen addressed yet in the replies to your post.

BF whispered his engagement plans to you at a New Year''s party after a few drinks? I''m afraid these aren''t the most reliable circumstances.... He was probably having a great time and feeling all flushed in love, and made the statement in a spontaneous, spur-of-the-moment way b/c he knew it would make you happy. It doesn''t sound like he was trying to be manipulative, just feeling inspired by a little "liquid courage" to tell you something he knew you would love hearing. I''m not saying it''s right of him to essentially dismiss what he said later, but it''s hard to hold someone to this kind of statement. I hope I''m not adding insult to injury by pointing this out, it just seems like it''s a factor that no one''s addressed yet.

I don''t think it''s at all unreasonable to want to be engaged before buying a house with someone. Irregardless of the housing market, if it''s important to you then it''s important to you.

Good luck!