so hurt. by my boss. again.

[lucyandroger]

I''m sorry you''ve had bad experinces with the attorneys you''ve worked with, MZ. I still don''t think that''s a basis for statements like "there is no such thing as a nice lawyer."

Just like in any other profession, there are ALL types. I work in an office of an international law firm with about 500 attorneys. There are nice, mean, introverted, extroverted, nervous, laid back.....etc.

Just because Alli is an attorney doesn''t mean she needs to put up with being demeaned on a regular basis. Of course with the economy the way it is, it''s more difficult to find another position. So that''s why my advice was and still is to get her resumes out there and in the mean time, try to learn as much as she can from this @ss.

 

[bee*]

I''m sorry to hear about the surgery and your ass of a boss! Sending hugs.

 

[lucyandroger]

I've been thinking about this and I just wanted to come back and say that yes, Alli made a mistake (which happens to EVERYONE, especially when you're just learning) but there were far better ways for the boss to handle the situation. The best attorneys know how to keep a clear head and act rationally even with little sleep and lots of stress. This guy could have gotten his point across with an email that looked like this:

Alli,
I am disappointed with the draft of the (client) motion you sent me on Friday. Before I give you my edits, I’d like you to take another crack at it.
Please go back and take another look at the transcript. You’ll see that a Huntley hearing was already ordered, and the Sandoval issue was also referred to the trial judge. Therefore, remove these requests from the motion and next time, check the transcript carefully to see what we are still requesting.
Please also go back and re-read the attached cases. I am looking for an analysis that better addresses (XYZ) concerns and the application of (ABC) to our client’s circumstances. If you have questions, please reach out to me before handing in the next draft so as to expedite this for the client.
I am giving you another chance to work with this draft and I expect more attention to detail this go-around.

Alli is a professional and deserves to be treated as such...I just don't like these "lawyers will be lawyers" comments.

 

[Po10472]

Hiya.

Firstly, really sorry to hear about your medical situation you must be very sad and stressed about the whole thing.

Secondly, regardless of where you work, you have a right to be treated with dignity and respect and frankly his tone was out of order. I see this kind of thing all the time - I''m an HR Adviser - where managers think they can talk to someone anyway they want because they earn a higher salary than you. It doesn''t matter that you are new to the firm, you are not a mind reader and if you are asked to undertake a piece of work without any guidance, how in goodness name are you meant to learn and develop with that kind of attitude.

Also, if his/her job is to communicate the law, then they should have arranged to speak with you and gone over the areas they was concerned about and given you guidance and steer in the right direction. The best way to avoid future issues like this is to sit down with that person and explain that you were unsure what they wanted etc., although I am aware that you have other things on your mind and the timing may be wrong. Soooo, I recommend that you start keeping a copy of these types of emails and record any behaviour which makes you feel uncomfortable and should you need this in future, then you have evidence.

Oh, and I don''t give a stuff if lawyers/managers/whoever shout and ball and talk to other people like crap, you don''t have to take it and there are ways to get round this.

 

[Steel]

Date: 4/7/2009 11:40:43 AM
Author: Madam Bijoux
Just another thought: Your boss might be deliberately doing this to toughen you up.

I wondered that too.

I have been ''belittled'' so many times by my boss I can''t help but think she did it to toughen me up. I have dug my nails into the palm of my hands so hard I almost drew blood - but refuse to cry at work. Ever.

 

[movie zombie]

just make sure that you take care of yourself....no one will do it better than you do. make sure you''re getting some quality alone time and de-stressing, if that''s possible given the health and work issues. seeing a counselor just to get some of this off your chest might not hurt either. there is never any good timing for these things but it certainly doesn''t help to get double wammied. keep that chin up!

mz

 

[lliang_chi]

Look ppl have crappy bosses or bosses who are total a$$es/d!cks. It comes with life, nothing you can do to change that. There''s always going to be the crappy boss, there''s always going to be the jerk in line at checkout. Ally, do the best you can. Learn from your mistakes and try not to repeat them. Learn to stand up for yourself and not back down just because someone''s yelling at you.

So this was your first criminal motion, you''re learning. Does it suck? Yeah, but do what you can.

If it gets too unbearable, start the process of applying else where but just because you leave one a$$hole doesn''t mean you won''t stumble into another one.

Hugs to you.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Alli,

Hang in there! He is definitely a jerk, but I guess that as long as he''s the jerk you''re working for, you''ll just need to come vent on here and hope he eases up soon.

I wonder if he believes this is a rite of passage? Was some senior lawyer a jerk to him back in the day?

Please hang in there. Hopefully once you get the hang of things he''ll ease up and give you more breathing room. And hopefully if you put in long hours to make up for what you don''t yet know, he''ll gain a little perspective and realize that if you had graduated from law school with all the knowledge that years of experience gives you, guys like him would be out of a job!

P.S. Don''t let this jerk make your decision about surgery for you. 30 years from now you really won''t care what he thought. You can always get another job -- no, I''m not saying easily, or one that necessarily pays as well or puts you on the track you want to be on -- but you can''t get another body. And your quality of life matters too!

My dad always used to say, "Don''t let the b*st*rds get you down." Keep repeating that to yourself!

 

[Mara]

lliang said it best IMO re your boss. life is not always fair. i have had great bosses, mediocre bosses and really crappy bosses. you have to make a decision in your career when you work for someone like that...if it doesn't work for you then you should think about leaving. but most people will NOT change how they interact with you unless it's forced from a higher level (and maybe not even then).

you mentioned you are new and felt lost...so you overcompensated in your document. sounds like he is frustrated...it might not even be with you necessarily...maybe he was having a horrible day and this was the 'straw'. but his words were harsh. however, you already probably knew that before you posted...so what is the recourse? there are finite 'options' in terms of what you can do. since you do know what his hot buttons are, can you learn to manage him better? many times that is doable, but you have to be very diligent.

btw..re your health. i have a friend who had an ovary and tube removed last year due to some quite large cysts. it was relatively quick healing and she actually got pregnant about 6 months later. they did have a hard time and she did have a few miscarriages. but she is ecstatic about the baby, and doing very well...you will be fine!

 

[Octavia]

Date: 4/7/2009 1:54:08 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Alli is a professional and deserves to be treated as such...I just don't like these 'lawyers will be lawyers' comments.

I don't like them either, lucy. These kind of lawyers are only the way they are because people let them get away with it -- associates and clients alike. Associates because they're told they have to in order to fit in, and clients because everyone wants the attorney who can rip the other side to shreds. Alli's situation is only a tiny reflection of a broader problem in the field, and I do think she should stand up for herself within reason. Not by saying "you're so mean, it hurts my feelings when you send me mean emails," but by saying (in spirit, if not in these exact words), "you knew when you hired me that I had no experience, and you promised to help me gain that experience. By giving me criticism that isn't constructive or helpful, you're failing to live up to your end of our bargain and preventing me from living up to mine. I will try to improve my work on my own, but I can't do it to your specifications if you don't explain to me what you actually want from me, and only tell me what's wrong, never what's right."

I've been fortunate in my internships to have fantastic supervisors who have really helped me piece things together, but I'm sure I'd be struggling with the same work-product issues that Alli is if I had a boss like hers. It's just much harder in a two-person office than it would be in a large firm, because as someone pointed out before, it's easier to balance things out with multiple bosses.

Hang in there, Alli. I still think you just need to keep plugging away, doing the best work you can, and trying to improve your work to be best of your ability. Hopefully your boss will grow to appreciate you, but if you're giving it all you have and you still can't make him happy, then it could be that there's just nothing more you can do except to make the best of it and search for something else.

 

[ckrickett]

Date: 4/7/2009 5:32:24 PM
Author: Octavia

Date: 4/7/2009 1:54:08 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Alli is a professional and deserves to be treated as such...I just don''t like these ''lawyers will be lawyers'' comments.

I don''t like them either, lucy. These kind of lawyers are only the way they are because people let them get away with it -- associates and clients alike. Associates because they''re told they have to in order to fit in, and clients because everyone wants the attorney who can rip the other side to shreds. Alli''s situation is only a tiny reflection of a broader problem in the field, and I do think she should stand up for herself within reason. Not by saying ''you''re so mean, it hurts my feelings when you send me mean emails,'' but by saying (in spirit, if not in these exact words), ''you knew when you hired me that I had no experience, and you promised to help me gain that experience. By giving me criticism that isn''t constructive or helpful, you''re failing to live up to your end of our bargain and preventing me from living up to mine. I will try to improve my work on my own, but I can''t do it to your specifications if you don''t explain to me what you actually want from me, and only tell me what''s wrong, never what''s right.''

I''ve been fortunate in my internships to have fantastic supervisors who have really helped me piece things together, but I''m sure I''d be struggling with the same work-product issues that Alli is if I had a boss like hers. It''s just much harder in a two-person office than it would be in a large firm, because as someone pointed out before, it''s easier to balance things out with multiple bosses.

Hang in there, Alli. I still think you just need to keep plugging away, doing the best work you can, and trying to improve your work to be best of your ability. Hopefully your boss will grow to appreciate you, but if you''re giving it all you have and you still can''t make him happy, then it could be that there''s just nothing more you can do except to make the best of it and search for something else.

Nail on the head right there.

I hope things get better for you allie!

 

[AGSHF]

Date: 4/6/2009 7:41:28 PM
Author:alli_esq
so as I have posted in a couple of places on here about the fact that I found out last week that I have a very large ovarian cyst and that I am going to need surgery--and I might lose my ovary. I had to miss 3 half-days, and one full day of work last week (the first time I''d been out sick since I started working last August). But, on Tuesday, the day I met with the surgeon and I learned I might well lose my ovary, when I came back into my office, and told my boss about it, he handed me an assignment (I''m a new lawyer), and I worked through it the rest of the week, and gave him my draft on Friday.

I walked in this morning to receive these two emails:

----------


Your draft of the (client''s) motion is awful. Do you even know what it is that you''re asking for? Do you know what Huntley or Sandoval are? It doesn''t help me for you to just write a motion if you have no idea what you''re doing. Perhaps you should have tried to understand it before you wrote the draft.

----------

If you read the criminal transcript from the last date, you would have seen that a Huntley hearing was already ordered, and the Sandoval issue was also referred to the trial judge. Why did you request them in the draft of the motion?

Also, if you read the transcript, you would have seen exactly what we are trying to get. Why don’t you start by reading the transcript. Then do some research, starting with the attached cases and write this motion for discovery like it should be written. Does me and the client no good for you to just cut and paste from other motions that are not on point. It isn’t just about getting me a draft. What’s the point if I have to go and do all the work over again anyway...

-----------

Obviously I had read the transcripts. Obviously I had done research (including using the attachment he resent to me). Obviously I DID try to get what he wanted. And this isn''t the first time I''ve come in to work to nasty emails like this.

I just started crying. I had been crying the whole weekend about my predicament (see post), and I just couldn''t deal with this too.

Am I overreacting to be this hurt?? I am not being rational in general. Am I being rational by being incredibly hurt by this? I know you will all be blunt, and I think I need that.

alli_esq.

There''s been many good responses, though I didn''t read each thoroughly. I''m going to share my thoughts based solely on the fact that I worked for many years for a large international corporate law firm and had experiences with the good, bad and ugly as well.

First, I''m sorry to hear about your health issues and I hope that it will resolve quickly...however, I will say this...most senior male lawyers (you don''t say how old this boss is) aren''t interested in hearing about the details of your personal life. It would have sufficed for you to say that you''ve been out of the office for a number of doctor''s visits for a medical issue and will need to take some time off for a medical procedure. It''s never a good idea, in my experience, to cross those personal lines too early into a working relationship, if ever.

While it''s a traumatic matter for you, he (whether we like it or not) can''t be expected to act as a source of support. It would have been nice for him to say something along the lines of, "I''m sorry to hear that, but we have some important deadlines, etc. Let''s make sure that we''re covered" before handing you an assignment. It shouldn''t surprise you really that his main objective for meeting with you after your return to the office is to hand you an assignment. And, yes, he took oodles of time when his own family member was ill, but that''s because it''s HIS family and he''s the boss/partner/owner.

I''m sure you don''t need to be reminded that you are an employee/revenue generator. It would be nice if partners/bosses see you as more than that, but the sooner you remember that, the less likely you''ll be hurt and disappointed. It doesn''t matter whether he is paying you a large or moderate salary, you are there to provide him with quality work, bill your hours and, this is the real benefit for you, get some good experience, (training?) and a track record. Without those things, all you are getting is paid.

Second, about how you should respond to his emails. While I can''t agree with his choice of language and tone, I suspect that he simply looked over your draft motion, was sufficiently irritated and frustrated that it didn''t meet with his expectations and sat down and shot those emails to you. It''s fairly obvious to me, but if he could have, he would have liked to have said this to you in person, but couldn''t. There was no pause and edit reflex involved. So...while the emails are hideous in tone, you need to see how you can objectively address what he''s saying.

If you have done (a), (b)and (c) as you''ve indicated before preparing the motion, then there''s something you have missed. You are new and inexperienced, so perhaps you should have checked in with him midway through to make sure that you were on track. In my experience, it was always a disaster waiting to happen if an associate disappeared after getting an assignment and only reappeared with a draft in hand, especially at deadline. Make a habit of communicating midstream.

You need to find a way to sit down with bossman and calmly (w/o referring to his heinous emails) go through his "comments." If I were you (though I was never very successful at this), I might even apologize (though it might make you gag) first for missing the mark and asking him to give you marked comments on your draft so that you can proceed from there. You really don''t want your working relationship to break down so soon into your employment.


I''m not intending to be harsh, but the practice of law isn''t a warm and fuzzy thing, especially, obviously, among litigators. I was in M&A and corporate & securities work and, there, the clients/bankers were often worse than the partners, but that''s another story.

Please seek and get your emotional support outside of the firm. If this guy is as charming as this all the time, then I suggest that you''ll want to formulate Plan B sometime in the near future, not just because he''s a jerk but because he doesn''t seem to be providing you with the training you should be getting through constructive feedback, etc.


Many of us have been there...some of us have even worked for and with nice and admirable lawyers. You just have to get to a point where you have experience and options.

 

[crown1]

Date: 4/8/2009 12:59:53 AM
Author: AGSHF

Date: 4/6/2009 7:41:28 PM

Author:alli_esq

so as I have posted in a couple of places on here about the fact that I found out last week that I have a very large ovarian cyst and that I am going to need surgery--and I might lose my ovary. I had to miss 3 half-days, and one full day of work last week (the first time I'd been out sick since I started working last August). But, on Tuesday, the day I met with the surgeon and I learned I might well lose my ovary, when I came back into my office, and told my boss about it, he handed me an assignment (I'm a new lawyer), and I worked through it the rest of the week, and gave him my draft on Friday.


I walked in this morning to receive these two emails:


----------




Your draft of the (client's) motion is awful. Do you even know what it is that you're asking for? Do you know what Huntley or Sandoval are? It doesn't help me for you to just write a motion if you have no idea what you're doing. Perhaps you should have tried to understand it before you wrote the draft.


----------


If you read the criminal transcript from the last date, you would have seen that a Huntley hearing was already ordered, and the Sandoval issue was also referred to the trial judge. Why did you request them in the draft of the motion?


Also, if you read the transcript, you would have seen exactly what we are trying to get. Why don’t you start by reading the transcript. Then do some research, starting with the attached cases and write this motion for discovery like it should be written. Does me and the client no good for you to just cut and paste from other motions that are not on point. It isn’t just about getting me a draft. What’s the point if I have to go and do all the work over again anyway...



-----------


Obviously I had read the transcripts. Obviously I had done research (including using the attachment he resent to me). Obviously I DID try to get what he wanted. And this isn't the first time I've come in to work to nasty emails like this.


I just started crying. I had been crying the whole weekend about my predicament (see post), and I just couldn't deal with this too.


Am I overreacting to be this hurt?? I am not being rational in general. Am I being rational by being incredibly hurt by this? I know you will all be blunt, and I think I need that.

alli_esq.


There's been many good responses, though I didn't read each thoroughly. I'm going to share my thoughts based solely on the fact that I worked for many years for a large international corporate law firm and had experiences with the good, bad and ugly as well.


First, I'm sorry to hear about your health issues and I hope that it will resolve quickly...however, I will say this...most senior male lawyers (you don't say how old this boss is) aren't interested in hearing about the details of your personal life. It would have sufficed for you to say that you've been out of the office for a number of doctor's visits for a medical issue and will need to take some time off for a medical procedure. It's never a good idea, in my experience, to cross those personal lines too early into a working relationship, if ever.


While it's a traumatic matter for you, he (whether we like it or not) can't be expected to act as a source of support. It would have been nice for him to say something along the lines of, 'I'm sorry to hear that, but we have some important deadlines, etc. Let's make sure that we're covered' before handing you an assignment. It shouldn't surprise you really that his main objective for meeting with you after your return to the office is to hand you an assignment. And, yes, he took oodles of time when his own family member was ill, but that's because it's HIS family and he's the boss/partner/owner.


I'm sure you don't need to be reminded that you are an employee/revenue generator. It would be nice if partners/bosses see you as more than that, but the sooner you remember that, the less likely you'll be hurt and disappointed. It doesn't matter whether he is paying you a large or moderate salary, you are there to provide him with quality work, bill your hours and, this is the real benefit for you, get some good experience, (training?) and a track record. Without those things, all you are getting is paid.


Second, about how you should respond to his emails. While I can't agree with his choice of language and tone, I suspect that he simply looked over your draft motion, was sufficiently irritated and frustrated that it didn't meet with his expectations and sat down and shot those emails to you. It's fairly obvious to me, but if he could have, he would have liked to have said this to you in person, but couldn't. There was no pause and edit reflex involved. So...while the emails are hideous in tone, you need to see how you can objectively address what he's saying.


If you have done (a), (b)and (c) as you've indicated before preparing the motion, then there's something you have missed. You are new and inexperienced, so perhaps you should have checked in with him midway through to make sure that you were on track. In my experience, it was always a disaster waiting to happen if an associate disappeared after getting an assignment and only reappeared with a draft in hand, especially at deadline. Make a habit of communicating midstream.


You need to find a way to sit down with bossman and calmly (w/o referring to his heinous emails) go through his 'comments.' If I were you (though I was never very successful at this), I might even apologize (though it might make you gag) first for missing the mark and asking him to give you marked comments on your draft so that you can proceed from there. You really don't want your working relationship to break down so soon into your employment.



I'm not intending to be harsh, but the practice of law isn't a warm and fuzzy thing, especially, obviously, among litigators. I was in M&A and corporate & securities work and, there, the clients/bankers were often worse than the partners, but that's another story.


Please seek and get your emotional support outside of the firm. If this guy is as charming as this all the time, then I suggest that you'll want to formulate Plan B sometime in the near future, not just because he's a jerk but because he doesn't seem to be providing you with the training you should be getting through constructive feedback, etc.



Many of us have been there...some of us have even worked for and with nice and admirable lawyers. You just have to get to a point where you have experience and options.

agree