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South Dakota and Roe v. Wade
- Thread starter AGBF
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The vast majority of babies would be adopted in this country. The ones who might wait would probably be those with aids or drug mothers, and those are often the mothers who do not access abortion anyway. So as a society, we are already caring for children like that.
The other misconception I'd like to clear up is that MUCH is being done now to help women in crisis pregnancy situations. Many cities have crisis pregnancy centers which offer varied levels of support and help to women with unplanned pregnancies. I totally agree that those who promote saving the lives of unborn babies have a responsibility to help. I have served on the board of our local crisis pregnancy center and we continue to support it financially. We also sponsor a child in a third world country as well as having adopted one. We have helped others adopt several times. Adoption is an option full of hope for a child whose birthparents are unprepared to care for them.
I know my girlfriend was adopted. Her parents had to go on a waiting list for a couple years to be able to get her. Her relationship with her adopted mother isn''t the greatest. I''m still thankful her mother made the choice to have the child and give it up for adoption. Her life has made a world of difference in my life, and a lot of others that I''ve known.
If you''re going to have sex, you might have a child. It''s common sense. If you willfully engage in an act you should be will to accept the responsibility for dealing with the consequences whether you find it fair or not. If someone accidentally crashes their car and someone else dies, it''s still considered manslaughter and you''re prosecuted. Negligence or good intentions doesn''t absolve responsibility.
As far as instances of rape, I figure it''s like this. If someone steals my coat, I might freeze to death, and that''s not fair. The fact that my coat was unfairly taken from me doesn''t give me the right to take the coat away of someone else, causing them to freeze to death. If a person becomes pregnant and feels like that will ruin their life I think the responsible thing to do is accept the unfairness that life has handed them, own it, live it well, and refuse to pass the unfairness down to another innocent.
If you''re going to have sex, you might have a child. It''s common sense. If you willfully engage in an act you should be will to accept the responsibility for dealing with the consequences whether you find it fair or not. If someone accidentally crashes their car and someone else dies, it''s still considered manslaughter and you''re prosecuted. Negligence or good intentions doesn''t absolve responsibility.
As far as instances of rape, I figure it''s like this. If someone steals my coat, I might freeze to death, and that''s not fair. The fact that my coat was unfairly taken from me doesn''t give me the right to take the coat away of someone else, causing them to freeze to death. If a person becomes pregnant and feels like that will ruin their life I think the responsible thing to do is accept the unfairness that life has handed them, own it, live it well, and refuse to pass the unfairness down to another innocent.
rainbowtrout
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diamondseeker:
Do I think it is wrong to kill a human? Not always, no. Self defense first comes to mind. If someone represents a clear and present danger to your health and well being I do believe the police course I took on assult told me it was OK to shoot them.
So if a baby is going to cause me serious health problems or death, then I do think it would be moral to kill it from this line of arguement. Self defense.
If a child is going to be born with a debilitating illness or into a terrible life situation (darfur, etc) I believe it is my right as the mother to choose not to bring that child into the world. Period. In my opinion I DO have that right. Not God, not you, not the law, me. The one carrying the baby or the potential for a baby or whatever you want to call it. The ability to make choices for your children decreases as they age and gain self awareness and responsibility. When they are still part of my body, when they are literally my flesh and blood then yes, I think I have that choice. People have been talking a lot about sacred life--what about sacred choice?
What this comes down to on a legal level is if the majority of the american people believe killing a fetus is the same as killing an adult human. If they truly do, the laws should change. I''ll move. If they don''t, then maybe our society is degraded or awful or whatnot, but it''s a democracy and that''s how things go.
Do I think it is wrong to kill a human? Not always, no. Self defense first comes to mind. If someone represents a clear and present danger to your health and well being I do believe the police course I took on assult told me it was OK to shoot them.
So if a baby is going to cause me serious health problems or death, then I do think it would be moral to kill it from this line of arguement. Self defense.
If a child is going to be born with a debilitating illness or into a terrible life situation (darfur, etc) I believe it is my right as the mother to choose not to bring that child into the world. Period. In my opinion I DO have that right. Not God, not you, not the law, me. The one carrying the baby or the potential for a baby or whatever you want to call it. The ability to make choices for your children decreases as they age and gain self awareness and responsibility. When they are still part of my body, when they are literally my flesh and blood then yes, I think I have that choice. People have been talking a lot about sacred life--what about sacred choice?
What this comes down to on a legal level is if the majority of the american people believe killing a fetus is the same as killing an adult human. If they truly do, the laws should change. I''ll move. If they don''t, then maybe our society is degraded or awful or whatnot, but it''s a democracy and that''s how things go.
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If you read back one of my earlier posts, I did say that there would probably have to be exceptions. It is a reality that women become pregnant in the midst of cancer treatment (as a noteable example) and the treatment can cause damage to the unborn baby. Yet postponing treatment could take the life of the mother. That is a case where I think the woman and her husband have a right to choose when her life is truly at stake. But this is probably a factor in less than 1% of abortions, I''d imagine. And that is a very tragic position for anyone to be in.
rainbowtrout
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Well, that question was "on what basis do you determine that it is wrong to kill a person who is already born?", not "when is it okay to kill a person who is already born?". I certainly agree that defending one''s life is a justifiable reason to harm/kill another. And there can at times, be just wars.
But I deleted that because I didn''t want this to become the neverending thread.
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>>If a person becomes pregnant and feels like that will ruin their life I think the responsible thing to do is accept the unfairness that life has handed them, own it, live it well, and refuse to pass the unfairness down to another innocent. <<
Jeremy and Diamondseeker, out of curiosity, I''m wondering what your views are on in vitro fertilization and if they are consistent with your views on abortion. If a couple can''t become pregnant, do you feel they should accept the unfairness life has handed them, own it, live it well, and refuse to pass the unfairness down to another innocent? Do you worry about the 400,000 frozen embryos in the U.S. when only a tiny fraction of them will ever have a chance to become babies? Do you feel that it is immoral for a couple undergo IVF if they may selectively terminate some of the embryos once implanted? Does it matter if the decision to selectively terminate is based on the survivability of the other embryos or the simple fact that the couple may not want septuplets?
The Catholic Church declares that IVF is mortally sinful. I wonder if they will ban it South Dakota....
Jeremy and Diamondseeker, out of curiosity, I''m wondering what your views are on in vitro fertilization and if they are consistent with your views on abortion. If a couple can''t become pregnant, do you feel they should accept the unfairness life has handed them, own it, live it well, and refuse to pass the unfairness down to another innocent? Do you worry about the 400,000 frozen embryos in the U.S. when only a tiny fraction of them will ever have a chance to become babies? Do you feel that it is immoral for a couple undergo IVF if they may selectively terminate some of the embryos once implanted? Does it matter if the decision to selectively terminate is based on the survivability of the other embryos or the simple fact that the couple may not want septuplets?
The Catholic Church declares that IVF is mortally sinful. I wonder if they will ban it South Dakota....
Would it be manslaughter if someone miscarries w/ some fault attached?
I applaud anyone who works w/ the crisis pregnancy centers - but, I have found that is not the majority. They don''t believe in Planned Parenthood or help with women NOT getting pregnant in the first place. Should absintence be taught? Sure - but it''s not the end of avoiding unwanted pregnancy.
I applaud anyone who works w/ the crisis pregnancy centers - but, I have found that is not the majority. They don''t believe in Planned Parenthood or help with women NOT getting pregnant in the first place. Should absintence be taught? Sure - but it''s not the end of avoiding unwanted pregnancy.
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In my opinion, loving someone who is adopted is totally irrelevant to the issue. If someone isn''t born, he isn''t born. We don''t morn the fact that many people have not been born because two people who might have conceived them never had sex together or had it on the wrong day! There are many of those "potential" people out there and if they were born, someone might love them, too.
Deborah
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I believe Scott Peterson was charged with the murder of unborn baby Conner, and I do believe that was correct to fault him with the death of that baby who most certainly could have lived if delivered at that point (8 months).
I think it depends on the individual CPC, but many would teach abstinence and birth control. Women are often really taken advantage of in a non-marriage situation. But I certainly agree that in a situation where a person will not be abstinent, then by all means, please, please, please use birth control!!!
You''re also right, lots of talk on both sides of these issues, too little action on everyone''s part. All those little babies in Chinese orphanges break my heart. I do not forget them, but I can only do my part.
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No, but I have morned the loss of a miscarried baby. Have you never known a woman who was broken hearted over a miscarriage? I have friends who have lost babies at 6 months of gestation and a funeral was held. The only difference in those babies and aborted babies was that one was very much wanted and the other was not. Both were human beings with beating hearts and brains who were not yet born.Date: 2/28/2006 9:51:19 AM
Author: AGBF
In my opinion, loving someone who is adopted is totally irrelevant to the issue. If someone isn''t born, he isn''t born. We don''t morn the fact that many people have not been born because two people who might have conceived them never had sex together or had it on the wrong day! There are many of those ''potential'' people out there and if they were born, someone might love them, too.
Deborah
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Well, I most assuredly do not feel that IVF is some kind of mortal sin. In earlier years I might have tried that had I not been able to conceive. Now that I have adopted, though, I am such a strong proponent of taking care of a child who is already born and has no parents, that I''d probably choose that option instead. Because with hindsight, I know that I have as great a love for my adopted child as I do for my birthchildren. The miracle is equal for me. So I do not consider adoption second best or a compromise in any way. But again, I speak from experience and that is easier than making the decision on the front end.
I do think IVF should be done responsibly. Don''t make dozens of embryos that you don''t intend to use. We had friends who had 3, I think, and they eventually had all of them implanted because they felt it was the right thing to do. The third one was miscarried, so that child was not meant to be. But at least they did what they felt was right, and I admired them for it.
I just want to say to all here, that I have had other views in my life on this matter, so I know where people are coming from. I understand my views may be seen as idealistic (or otherwise) to some here. And that''s okay. What I hope you have gotten from this is that it might be a mistake to categorize people who are pro-life into one kind of mold. Because it simply would not be true. I do all I can to live out my convictions in practical ways rather than just state them. I do not have hostility toward women who have had abortions, I have compassion toward them. I hope they heal and never have to face that kind of decision again. I will continue to try and help orphans and support women who decide to keep unplanned babies or give them up for adoption, because I believe that is the right thing for me to do. I hope you can respect that just a little.
MINE!!
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Crap... Crap Crap Crap.....I swore to myself that I was just going to read the rest of the thread and that was it....Crap.
When I was 19 my best friend got pregnant. She was upset. She decieded that her ''child'' was not a real life. She and her Boyfriend planned to get married. So they would just go ahead and keep the BABY. Matter-a-fact.. they did get married. BUt time when by... 3 months, 4 months, 5 months and then she decided that she did not want to be fat in her wedding dress. At 6 months she went to NY to get a late term abortion. At 6 and a half months she aborted her child.
She got married.
A week before her abortion I found out I was pregnant. I had no doubts.. not from the very moment of the first positive. it was a life PERIOD!! I was not married, I had no education, I had a wonderful boyfriend who ended up marrying me. (We stayed together for 7 years... he is still my best friend) I was scared, I was nervous and I was excited.. inside me.. there was LIFE! I knew when I was having sex that I could end up getting pregnant, I could not murder my child. My friend told me.. wait till you feel it move.... I will never forget that moment. Sometimes, I can''t help but wonder HOW you could feel it move and still abort it. I learned A LOT from this situation. I learned a lot about people. How some could have a life and others could destroy it so non chalantley.. all for the matter of convience.
Today, the child that I did not abort, she is my life blood. I ache when she cries, I melt when she smiles and I would lay down my life for her without hesitation. MY GOD, I think, what if I had decided that I could not take the responsibility, what if I decided that I was inconvienced by her, what if I decided that it was not worth the trouble, what if I had decided I didn;t want to be fat in my wedding dress? I weep just thinking about what I would have done if I had aborted her and left her to be burned in some incinerator. LIFE!! LIFE!! Responsiblity, life.
When I was 19 my best friend got pregnant. She was upset. She decieded that her ''child'' was not a real life. She and her Boyfriend planned to get married. So they would just go ahead and keep the BABY. Matter-a-fact.. they did get married. BUt time when by... 3 months, 4 months, 5 months and then she decided that she did not want to be fat in her wedding dress. At 6 months she went to NY to get a late term abortion. At 6 and a half months she aborted her child.
She got married.
A week before her abortion I found out I was pregnant. I had no doubts.. not from the very moment of the first positive. it was a life PERIOD!! I was not married, I had no education, I had a wonderful boyfriend who ended up marrying me. (We stayed together for 7 years... he is still my best friend) I was scared, I was nervous and I was excited.. inside me.. there was LIFE! I knew when I was having sex that I could end up getting pregnant, I could not murder my child. My friend told me.. wait till you feel it move.... I will never forget that moment. Sometimes, I can''t help but wonder HOW you could feel it move and still abort it. I learned A LOT from this situation. I learned a lot about people. How some could have a life and others could destroy it so non chalantley.. all for the matter of convience.
Today, the child that I did not abort, she is my life blood. I ache when she cries, I melt when she smiles and I would lay down my life for her without hesitation. MY GOD, I think, what if I had decided that I could not take the responsibility, what if I decided that I was inconvienced by her, what if I decided that it was not worth the trouble, what if I had decided I didn;t want to be fat in my wedding dress? I weep just thinking about what I would have done if I had aborted her and left her to be burned in some incinerator. LIFE!! LIFE!! Responsiblity, life.
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Mr Majestyk
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rainbowtrout
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Date: 2/28/2006 9:51:19 AM
Author: AGBF
In my opinion, loving someone who is adopted is totally irrelevant to the issue. If someone isn''t born, he isn''t born. We don''t morn the fact that many people have not been born because two people who might have conceived them never had sex together or had it on the wrong day! There are many of those ''potential'' people out there and if they were born, someone might love them, too.
Deborah
And this is what scares me. It is too easy to go from ''abortion is bad'' to ''all birth control is bad'' ---the ''potential'' for life keeps extending backwards. It''s happened before and is too close for me to not fear it happening again. Of course there has to be a happy medium--I just worry about the speed with which we rush back to making abortion illegal leading to a return to birth control being difficult to obtain as well.
Demelza
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Are you ACTUALLY comparing being raped to having your coat stolen????? Being raped is a signifiant, life-altering, physical and emotional trauma. To force a woman to bear a child created during a rape because, gee, life isn''t fair, is extremely cruel. I''m not saying you are a cruel person, but I have to say, I''m quite disturbed by these comments, especially coming from a man. I told myself I would no longer participate in this thread (as, I see, have others), but I had to speak up when I saw this. Perhaps I''m misunderstanding you??
Demelza
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E B
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Not ONLY is your comparison extremely insulting, Jeremy, it makes absolutely no sense. The fact that you equate rape to someone stealing your coat just shows how clueless you really are. You expect women to sit back and let people like YOU make decisions about our bodies? I don''t think so. I''m not only ashamed to read this, I''m ashamed that another PSer (a WOMAN no doubt!) applauded you. Disgusting.
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Now, now people. As much as I wouldn't wish for *my* daughter to date a person who thinks like Jeremy (whose words I did not find at all loving but controlling), I *don't* think he was equating rape with having one's coat stolen. I think he was equating having sex, with or without birth control, and unintentionally getting pregnant to having your coat stolen.
It still (and always will) come down to whether you think that an embryo has an independent right to live even though it can't live independently. If you believe, as Jeremy clearly does, that killing an embryo is the same as murder then you believe that no one should have the right to do it. I totally understand what he (and others here) believe. The fatal error in their thinking is missing the part about the embryo not being able to live independently and therefore it being none of their business unless they are the one carrying it. I do not think they should ever have abortions (or be the partner of someone who might). In fact, even though I do not want another child, I would not have an abortion myself because I am torn enough about my own beliefs *and in the position to give a child a great life*.
BUT I WOULD NEVER PRESUME TO MAKE THAT DECISION FOR ANOTHER WOMAN. And I wish everyone thought like me
.
It still (and always will) come down to whether you think that an embryo has an independent right to live even though it can't live independently. If you believe, as Jeremy clearly does, that killing an embryo is the same as murder then you believe that no one should have the right to do it. I totally understand what he (and others here) believe. The fatal error in their thinking is missing the part about the embryo not being able to live independently and therefore it being none of their business unless they are the one carrying it. I do not think they should ever have abortions (or be the partner of someone who might). In fact, even though I do not want another child, I would not have an abortion myself because I am torn enough about my own beliefs *and in the position to give a child a great life*.
BUT I WOULD NEVER PRESUME TO MAKE THAT DECISION FOR ANOTHER WOMAN. And I wish everyone thought like me
.
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Wow. I am amazed at how things people say are just totally twisted into something they did not intend! And I don''t get this thing about birth control AT ALL. We are talking about babies that have been conceived, period.
I already said I think there should be exceptions. My point and I think Jeremy''s is that most of us have the full knowledge that having sex can cause pregnancy. With the exception of rape, the CHOICE is to have sex or not, with the full knowledge that one might become pregnant. THAT is the right to choose. I realize there are cases where properly used birth control fails. Fine, you do not have to keep the baby. You then have the right to choose to keep or give the baby for adoption. Give it to a home who will love it if you can''t. That''s all.
The thing I liked about Jeremy is that if he were the father in an unintended pregnancy, he would be a man and take responsibility rather than trying to force the woman to have an abortion. I think some here may not understand that many young women are coerced into abortion by their controlling partners. They see this at CPC''s all the time.
But the truth is, people are more afraid of what other people will think if they give their baby up than if they just kill it in the first place so no one knows. And that is very sad indeed.
I already said I think there should be exceptions. My point and I think Jeremy''s is that most of us have the full knowledge that having sex can cause pregnancy. With the exception of rape, the CHOICE is to have sex or not, with the full knowledge that one might become pregnant. THAT is the right to choose. I realize there are cases where properly used birth control fails. Fine, you do not have to keep the baby. You then have the right to choose to keep or give the baby for adoption. Give it to a home who will love it if you can''t. That''s all.
The thing I liked about Jeremy is that if he were the father in an unintended pregnancy, he would be a man and take responsibility rather than trying to force the woman to have an abortion. I think some here may not understand that many young women are coerced into abortion by their controlling partners. They see this at CPC''s all the time.
But the truth is, people are more afraid of what other people will think if they give their baby up than if they just kill it in the first place so no one knows. And that is very sad indeed.
rainbowtrout
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While the coat comparision is bizarre, to say the very least, he was saying "if something awful happens to me and it could kill me that doesn''t give me the right to kill/rob someone else"
I find THIS interpretation even more disturbing, actually. If you look carefully it means that if "I might freeze TO DEATH" (=I might die from pregnancy) I don''t have the right to "steal someone else''s coat" (=have an abortion).
I realize this might not be what you intended, but goodness. You later said that if it might "ruin your life" one should suck it up and deal with it, but your coat comparision deals directly with life and death.
I find THIS interpretation even more disturbing, actually. If you look carefully it means that if "I might freeze TO DEATH" (=I might die from pregnancy) I don''t have the right to "steal someone else''s coat" (=have an abortion).
I realize this might not be what you intended, but goodness. You later said that if it might "ruin your life" one should suck it up and deal with it, but your coat comparision deals directly with life and death.
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rainbowtrout
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You may not "get" the thing about birth control, but it does have to do historically with restrictions on women''s right to have sex safely and lessen the risk of concieving. Our control over our own reproductive right, INCLUDING birth control, is so recent. Look at how they are blocking the morning after pill. One of my friends in Alamama recently had a pharmacist refuse to give her birth control because she was unmarried.
Like it or not, the two are linked in our very recent past. I don''t think excessive caution to make sure the whole shebang doesn''t return is unjustified. when we talk about ending abortion rights, this often goes with dialogue about abstinence education, restricting access to some kinds of birth control, etc in the current administration.
We won''t fund condoms in countries where AIDS in rampant. We won''t fund non-abstinance education programs at home or abroad. It''s not helping the women in Africa as their husbands are going to cheat and rape anyway, they are just not going to do it with protection now. And there is little or mixed evidence on the effectiveness of absintance education in America. I see this as linked to the abortion and overall reproductive rights debate.
Like it or not, the two are linked in our very recent past. I don''t think excessive caution to make sure the whole shebang doesn''t return is unjustified. when we talk about ending abortion rights, this often goes with dialogue about abstinence education, restricting access to some kinds of birth control, etc in the current administration.
We won''t fund condoms in countries where AIDS in rampant. We won''t fund non-abstinance education programs at home or abroad. It''s not helping the women in Africa as their husbands are going to cheat and rape anyway, they are just not going to do it with protection now. And there is little or mixed evidence on the effectiveness of absintance education in America. I see this as linked to the abortion and overall reproductive rights debate.
rainbowtrout
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I do agree that men in an ideal world would stand up and take responsibility for this. It does seem that they may encourage their girlfriends to have abortions. there was a terribly sad times article about an abortion clinic and nearly all the women came in ALONE and said their boyfriend ran/wated them to abort it. Where the heck are these men? If they both want an abortion, fine, but at least have the guts to come to the clinic and get a little counseling first.
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>>With the exception of rape, the CHOICE is to have sex or not, with the full knowledge that one might become pregnant. THAT is the right to choose. I realize there are cases where properly used birth control fails. Fine, you do not have to keep the baby. You then have the right to choose to keep or give the baby for adoption. Give it to a home who will love it if you can''t. That''s all. <<
Diamondseeker, when the birth control fails (or the "accident" happens) there *is no baby* to choose to keep or not. There''s a zygote and later an embryo and later a fetus. There will be no baby unless the woman CHOOSES for there to be one by carrying on with the pregnancy.
If I get skin cancer even after responsibly using 30SPF sunscreen I will get it treated -- even though I knew the risks of sunbathing. And if a woman *gasp* has sex she should be able to have her pregnancy terminated even though she knew the risks. And yes, I am equating getting pregnant when it is not desired with finding out you have skin cancer.
Also, if your view that IVF is "responsible" as long as you don''t create more embryos than you need then your views are based on ignorance. The process of IVF inherently creates embryos that may not be used. They don''t just fertilize one egg at a time in the hopes that it will become an embryo "good" enough for implantation. Many are fertilized and the best are implanted. The others may be frozen or disposed of. I''ve read that 60% of the embryos produced through IVF are excess. If one''s idea of "responsible IVF" means only fertilizing eggs (creating embryos) that will be implanted then virtually all IVF is irresponsible. One thing you gotta love about the Catholic Church -- they are consistent!
Diamondseeker, when the birth control fails (or the "accident" happens) there *is no baby* to choose to keep or not. There''s a zygote and later an embryo and later a fetus. There will be no baby unless the woman CHOOSES for there to be one by carrying on with the pregnancy.
If I get skin cancer even after responsibly using 30SPF sunscreen I will get it treated -- even though I knew the risks of sunbathing. And if a woman *gasp* has sex she should be able to have her pregnancy terminated even though she knew the risks. And yes, I am equating getting pregnant when it is not desired with finding out you have skin cancer.
Also, if your view that IVF is "responsible" as long as you don''t create more embryos than you need then your views are based on ignorance. The process of IVF inherently creates embryos that may not be used. They don''t just fertilize one egg at a time in the hopes that it will become an embryo "good" enough for implantation. Many are fertilized and the best are implanted. The others may be frozen or disposed of. I''ve read that 60% of the embryos produced through IVF are excess. If one''s idea of "responsible IVF" means only fertilizing eggs (creating embryos) that will be implanted then virtually all IVF is irresponsible. One thing you gotta love about the Catholic Church -- they are consistent!
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Rainbowtrout, you are so right:
Abortion rights group ranks states on access to contraception
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/13984451.htm
One paragraph from the article linked above:
"We need to be making contraception easy for women, but in many states we''re actually making it harder," said Camp. "When effective contraceptive use rises, abortion rates go down."
Of 6 million U.S. pregnancies each year, about 3 million are unplanned, according to the group, and half of those end in abortions. According to Guttmacher, the U.S. unintended pregnancy and abortion rates are the highest among industrialized nations.
Abortion rights group ranks states on access to contraception
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/13984451.htm
One paragraph from the article linked above:
"We need to be making contraception easy for women, but in many states we''re actually making it harder," said Camp. "When effective contraceptive use rises, abortion rates go down."
Of 6 million U.S. pregnancies each year, about 3 million are unplanned, according to the group, and half of those end in abortions. According to Guttmacher, the U.S. unintended pregnancy and abortion rates are the highest among industrialized nations.
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