Steep/deeps and how much of a difference cut makes

[firespark]

I have an opportunity to get my steep/deep diamond recut. I have read a lot about the steep/deep issue on this site and others. I can totally see what is being talked about in my own diamond in certain environments (ring of leakage). However, if it is really clean, it does seem to shine well and a whole lot better than others I have seen which have obviously had poorer cuts than this so I've been overall happy enough with it given the price point originally purchased for originally and how hard and more costly it would have been to get something else.

I've seen a post here about someone saying even their super ideal looked dull and needs cleaning regularly. I've seen other posts about the idea of single eye vs two eyes for viewing and that mitigating light leakage. Also how cut makes diamonds face up whiter.

How much does cleaning impact all diamonds? Can super ideals get away with being that extra bit dirtier and still shining?

When thinking about viewing for light return, it seems we know single eyed vs two eyed vision can change things. What about viewing angles? I have not seen this mentioned as much, everything seems to talk about the view from face up. However a lot of times I will be looking at my diamond from a side on angle. What is the effect of this? I've always assumed this has been taken into consideration for the world of super ideals.

I have a diamond that is 36.5 crown angle and 41.2 pavilion. It seems like even a slight slice off the pavilion numbers could push it into better performance. I love a diamond that has a lot of fire. Does this mean it would be best to stay on a near ideal side with a higher crown rather than pushing towards a lower crowned super ideal just to save weight and achieve the goal?

And that's the final question, would this be a truly noticeable change? Changing the diamond I have into a super ideal despite losing carat weight is a great option as it sounds like face up size won't change so dramatically. I don't plan on selling it ever so the money loss for its value is no big deal. The thing I'm concerned about is that there is no going back after recutting so I'd like to be sure it's a worthwhile difference.

 

[DejaWiz]

Hello, firespark.
If your current diamond has a very noticeable RoD from moderate to severe leakage, then I'd be inclined to say that a recut to ideal proportions would definitely make a very big difference.
Even though it'll lose some carat weight, it'll come out looking a little bigger and much brighter due to the light now going where it should: to the eyes!

 

[MissGotRocks]

I definitely think you would notice a difference. You would need to contact a diamond cutter to determine the best way for them to cut the diamond to produce the best results. They look at the measurements of the whole diamond and then determine what would be best for the least amount of weight or diameter loss.
As far as super ideals needing to be cleaned, all diamonds need to be cleaned. However, I will say that my super ideals can take a lot of greasy fingerprints and stuff and still shine bright. I clean my diamonds every day after wear though as I want them to be at their sparkling best - lol!
Cut is king with diamonds so the best cut will produce the best results. Never hurts to ask the cutter about your options and their thoughts.

 

[Karl_K]

Time out:
There are some fluke combos that work well in this range, it all depends on the lowers, table size and stars.
Its not a combo when buying new that's recommended because there are combos with less potential for issues.
The report number would also be good.
Can I get the rest of the numbers and a some pictures please?

 

[tyty333]

Is this the .74 stone?

 

[DejaWiz]

Time out:
There are some fluke combos that work well in this range, it all depends on the lowers, table size and stars.
Its not a combo when buying new that's recommended because there are combos with less potential for issues.
The report number would also be good.
Can I get the rest of the numbers and a some pictures please?

Here you go, Karl_K:

Diamond Delemna - are steep deeps with a bad HCA ever OK?

I've been lurking on this forum for some time. My FI has been shopping with me for diamonds to go in my engagement ring. I've learned a lot from Pricescope, but didn't do all the research I should have before we pulled the trigger on a diamond. It's the classic story, the GIA score is...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Karl_K]

80% gross rounded lowers are good, if they are long enough it can migrate a lot of the under table leakage.
Remember the lowers are the ones that leak not the mains.
However 57table/50stars is not in the range that I have seen flukes.
Given that GIA grossly rounds the numbers nothing is ever certain.
Being a .74 it may not be economical for a recut because most places charge the same for all diamonds 1ct and under.

From the side view yes it a bolder profile than modern ideal cuts with its steep sides and a 16%ch it does have a bolder 3d off axis look.
Yes keeping it clean is likely more important with this combo than some of the ones commonly recommended here. Its important for the best looking stone with any combo.
Fire is so lighting dependent I am hesitant to say in your environment you would notice more fire with the one you have or not.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I did not realize it is a .74 diamond. Depending on the carat weight loss that would be necessary to achieve super ideal cut, it may not be worthwhile considering the cost to recut AND the carat weight loss. Best to run it by a cutter to get their take on it.

 

[Wink]

One very good thing about recutting a steep deep, it is rarely necessary to reduce the girdle size. You will want to consult with a good diamond cutter to determine the weight loss. When done properly, you will now have edge to edge brilliance, and the diamond will actually look its size rather than looking smaller because the outer rim of the diamond has little life.

Garry Holloway has some CZ stones cut to demonstrate this dramatically. He has a .75 ct stone cut properly and shows it beside a 1 ct "gem" that actually measures slightly larger than the smaller stone, yet looks significantly smaller.

John Pollard has also published these photos here on Pricescope.

 

[Kim N]

One very good thing about recutting a steep deep, it is rarely necessary to reduce the girdle size. You will want to consult with a good diamond cutter to determine the weight loss. When done properly, you will now have edge to edge brilliance, and the diamond will actually look its size rather than looking smaller because the outer rim of the diamond has little life.

Garry Holloway has some CZ stones cut to demonstrate this dramatically. He has a .75 ct stone cut properly and shows it beside a 1 ct "gem" that actually measures slightly larger than the smaller stone, yet looks significantly smaller.

John Pollard has also published these photos here on Pricescope.

These are the photos, if I'm not mistaken.

Diamond Carat Weight: Everything You Need To Know

What is a Diamond Carat and how is it measured? Check our diamond carat size chart today to compare diamond carat sizes.

www.pricescope.com

 

[Kim N]

Many on the forum have been happy with Southwest Diamond Cutters, myself included.

Services - Southwest Diamond Cutters

Southwest Diamond Cutters offers a complete array of services available to the industry Standard Cutting Services All stones will be cut to a fine make (generally Very Good to Excellent) Facet girdle Inscription removal Stones over 5.00 carats will be priced upon inspection There is a minimum...

southwestdiamondcutters.com

 

[yssie]

Definitely don’t recut without first viewing a stone with possibly-more-preferred-to-you proportions. See if the difference is worth it to you. If optical symmetry is anywhere from excellent to decent, this stone literally cannot be a colander, not with those numbers. And you may actively prefer your stone (yes, this is genuinely possible).

At 0.74ct the recut cost will be quite high, proportional to the value of the stone - which will reduce with the recut.

 

[firespark]

Thank you very much to everyone for such helpful information on this. I did not realise that size could change the usefulness of a recut so much. I have been speaking with BGD about doing this and the really rough having not ever seen the stone estimate is that it could wind up anywhere between .67 to .62. But if it still looked similar to the .74 size of spread, I had figured it may be worth it.

I'm not concerned as much about the value because the resale value on diamonds anyway is so low. So this doesn't really matter, it is a sunk cost and an extra thousand even to make it more into what I dream of vs a new diamond at multiples of extra thousands had seemed appealing.

The stone is excellent rated on symmetry. I can see arrows but they are generally light rather than dark (which I had always assumed is due to leakage). The concern I may actively like my stone better before the recut is exactly what I'm worried about. I will definitely make sure I try harder to have a look at ones in person then before deciding as I had hoped that would not actually be possible.

The photos of carat weight are quite interesting as the bright photo, it looks to me like the 1 carat is that extra bit brighter under the bright lights, but you sacrifice the normal lighting for that small bit of brightness.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Everyone!!!

For a long time I've been very vocal about the fact that the minute differences which are quite important and visible to some people are completely not important- or visible to everyone.
As an analogy- some people see a lot of tint in an H color- while others see a K color as white.
Discussions about the small distinctions, when not truly vetted for each individual will lead to people thinking it's a good idea recutting a .74ct
@firespark - I can totally get why you ask this- @yssie really raised relevant issues.

During the "cut wars" discussions here, years ago- I photographed a 60/60- same diameter as a super ideal- and the 60/60 looked larger.
A recut will result in a smaller diamond.

 

[Karl_K]

The stone is excellent rated on symmetry. I can see arrows but they are generally light rather than dark (which I had always assumed is due to leakage).

That is not from leakage, they are pointed more around you rather than at you, so they are showing less obstruction.
These are models are of a colored diamond but the effect on the mains(arrows) is the same.
This will also vary a bit with the crown configuration but its mainly driven by the pavilion angle.
edit: it varies greatly with distance also, the models below are all at the same viewing distance.

 

[Karl_K]

The negative effects of a steep/deep are mainly between the arrow shafts. In some cases the edge to edge brightness is impacted but its rarer.
Edge to edge brightness is controlled by the upper girdle facet angles which are tied to the table size, star% and crown angle in relation to the pavilion lower halve/girdle angles.
Garry's cz set is an extreme example but I have seen diamonds cut that bad but its not the normal steep/deep GIA EX.
The combination in question has some potential for some what less bright upper girdle facets(not as bad as the cz set) but with GIA gross rounding no solid conclusions can be drawn.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The 2 CZ's both of one carat when seen in dim light - you would swear on is half a carat.
I did this shallow experiment 1.5 decades ago:


Dirty Diamond Experiment
I did a shallow diamond earring test to prove the point for Peter Yantzer, then the Director of the AGS lab. We had debated shallow cuts and viewing distances for years, as discussed in earlier chapters. In 2005, I replaced one of my wife's earring ideal cut stones with a shallow diamond. The shallow stone had a 59.5% table, 31.3° crown and 40.6° pavilion with not very good symmetry. The remaining ideal cut stone had a 55.3% table, 34.9° crown and 40.75° pavilion with perfect optical symmetry (hearts and arrows).

After 3 months of annoying many people by asking which looked better, there was no doubt that the shallow stone performed better in all sorts of lighting environments. Clean or dirty. I had my wife swap ears with the diamonds every day to ensure they were equally dirty. That was when I discovered that shallow diamonds lose less brilliance when dirty. Peter Yantzer preferred the dirty shallow diamond earring when we were out to dinner at the JCK Las Vegas trade fair, much to his surprise.

 

[headlight]

If you are going to further pursue a recut, I have used BGD for 2 recuts and I STRONGLY recommend him.

You will receive a huge amount of data/images/reports as your stone is now, as well as the estimated measurements and size after the recut. And then again for the final product.

Keep in mind there is no guarantee your stone is eligible for a recut - They have to see the stone and assess the inclusions.

Also, you cannot dictate that you want such-and-such angle/measurement to be a certain value as you and others stated above … it will be cut in accordance with the combo capable… by capable I mean that the cutter has to work with your stone as it is now (how it was originally cut) which is a completely different thing than if it were being cut from the rough.
Brian (Gavin) will personally explain all this to you.

As an FYI, The process takes a long time and you will be without your diamond for many months.

Also, you must be aware that a stone can basically explode during the recutting process - it is very rare but you need to know. Jewelers Mutual used to insure for loss of stone due to cutting so you would need to inquire. I believe they are/were the only ones.

Depending on how long it has been since the stone was purchased or you had it appraised you will probably need a current appraisal to get it insured.

Sometimes after the initial recutting it may need to go back for a slight adjustment if you want it to make AGS000 cut grade… HOWEVER given the huge news last week that AGSL lab is closing shortly and it’s light report becoming an optional report from GIA I do not know how that will work at this point (not sure anyone does as of yet).

Please post photos in many lighting situations so we can see. As others have said, it might not be worth the recut.

Given it’s size in conjunction with its perfect D color it still kicks butt in a massive way with its icy white visual.

Also, please try not to get wrapped up in all the info about the super ideals. Of course if outright purchasing, one should make that their focus. But if you already have the diamond don’t fall out of love with yours based on what you’ve read.
I bet you loved it until you came to PS.
That happened to me.

But then I was fortunate to get a pair of ACAs and then inherited 2 stones and when I became aware of BGD I went to them and Brian made into super ideals.

So what I want to point out is that sometimes when I look down at my GIA3x that does have nice numbers overall and good HCA, but it’s depth is out of ideal range I will think to myself how bad it looks… but then in that same lighting I will pull out one of my super ideals to compare and it isn’t so different. Same for when in lighting conducive to seeing fire: my stone does display really nice fire… I will pull out a super ideal to compare and, again, it’s very close.

The main different is that it’s optical pattern just isn’t as precise as the super ideals. But overall the performance is not so difference. And my stone is E color so regardless of anything else, it always looks super white and you just can’t disregard that.

Your D is very rare so please remember how special that is!!! You definitely have “bragging rights” lol on that point!

The larger the stone the more visible it’s “less than perfect” elements (be it cut, clarity, color)… but at your size honestly this is much more difficult. The diamonds used in the GIA Diamond Grading Lab and Student Workroom are small. At their size range they look very similar to the naked eye even though they are of differing measurements.

So for that reason, as well, it would be really helpful for us to give you the best advice if you would post photos.

As for the cleaning issue, I also clean every night. However, I can say that the super ideal earrings (and sometimes pendant) really don’t need it because they don’t get dirty. But as far as my super ideal ring v my 3x ring, they both get hand soap and people shaking my hand (I wear my rings on my right hand) and putting inside dishwashing gloves, etc., and the super ideal will not look it’s best after all that, either.

Also, I have basic 6 prong solitaire. Make sure to not only really clean the pavilion with soft brush and Dawn-warm water mixture, clean on and around each prong and table. Just recently I noticed it actually makes a huge difference!!!

 

[Wink]

These are the photos, if I'm not mistaken.

Thank you greatly @Kim N. Those are indeed the pictures I was referring to. Cut is really SO important to the beauty of the diamond.

 

[firespark]

This information is all so very helpful. Thank you again so much. The shallow experiment is exceptionally interesting!

It's also heartening to hear that cleaning is a significant factor no matter what (apart from potentially a shallow diamond it seems).

An odd cleaning device that I have tried is actually a water toothpick. It's acting like a small pressure washer. It seems to do a decent job. However I'm not sure if this will be a disaster for the setting in the end. Nothing is loose as of yet and it's a sturdy solitaire so I'd be surprised for it to come loose with pressure that should be ok for gums.

I'll have to have a good further think on this. There's so many things I like about my current diamond, but the maths on the whole subject is very appealing and hard to argue with. But yes, whether it's a difference that matters is probably best put to the test by seeing other stones for sure.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This information is all so very helpful. Thank you again so much. The shallow experiment is exceptionally interesting!

It's also heartening to hear that cleaning is a significant factor no matter what (apart from potentially a shallow diamond it seems).

An odd cleaning device that I have tried is actually a water toothpick. It's acting like a small pressure washer. It seems to do a decent job. However I'm not sure if this will be a disaster for the setting in the end. Nothing is loose as of yet and it's a sturdy solitaire so I'd be surprised for it to come loose with pressure that should be ok for gums.

I'll have to have a good further think on this. There's so many things I like about my current diamond, but the maths on the whole subject is very appealing and hard to argue with. But yes, whether it's a difference that matters is probably best put to the test by seeing other stones for sure.

Thanks and thank you. My wife takes her water pump toothbrush with her.everywhere. just need to convince her the hot ammonia and detergent solution will clean the device and her jewels at the same Time