Stupid Question

[platinumrock]

Date: 4/6/2009 9:27:43 AM
Author: cushioncutnut
It does have neon look to it.........but honestly, my first thought was ''HELLO GORGEOUS''.

Is it a tourmaline? I love your pics BTW!!!

Ditto! What a fabulous color!

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/6/2009 6:49:28 PM
Author: Harriet
CMW,
I don''t know what, if any, the minimal tone and saturation levels are. But, I''ve been taught that tsavorites are coloured primarily by chromium and/or vanadium. If the main colouring agent of a green grossular is iron, it remains a green grossular.
ETA: I see that Coati''s here. Maybe she will answer the saturation/tone question.

Chrono,
I think LTL and the vendor have given you sound advice. As a wise poster here said to me, ''if you don''t love the gem, let it go to someone who does.''

Harriet,
This stone has chromium/vanadium.

 

[chrono]

OMG! I just received the blessing of Richard Hughes on this stone. He said it''s nice and well cut.

 

[FrekeChild]

Well if Richard says its nice...

But really, the important opinion is yours. Do you love it?

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/7/2009 12:06:30 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Well if Richard says its nice...

But really, the important opinion is yours. Do you love it?

There''s no question I like it but at the same time I want it to be recognizable as a tsavorite and not something else. That also plays an important part in my decision.

 

[ptorraca]

I just happened to be lurking this morning and noticed this thread -- first off, I agree with many of the above: if you don''t love the stone, don''t buy it. Likewise, if you love it, buy it -- even if it doesn''t meet the technical standard for a species. (I am assuming here you''re buying for your own enjoyment & not to resell -- if buying for resale I''d give a different answer).

But what prompted me to post was the use of GGG as an abbreviation for "green grossular garnet". I suggest you avoid using this abbreviation as GGG more commonly refers to a synthetic gem material: Gadolinium gallium garnet. Pretty stuff in its own right, but far from natural tsavorite.

This is not a comment on the stone that started this thread at all -- just hoping to help avoid confusion.

peter

 

[chrono]

Peter,
I love the stone but here''s the issue:
The trade decided on a new category for green grossular garnets called tsavorites and priced them higher than "regular" green grossular garnets. Therefore, I think it is important to ask this question because pricing is affected by the classification.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 4/7/2009 10:43:00 AM
Author: Chrono
Peter,
I love the stone but here''s the issue:
The trade decided on a new category for green grossular garnets called tsavorites and priced them higher than ''regular'' green grossular garnets. Therefore, I think it is important to ask this question because pricing is affected by the classification.

I understand you perfectly Chrono. There''s more to it than the "if you love it, buy it and if you don''t, move on" theory. You don''t want to be paying for a Rolls Royce if you''re getting a Fiat. Nor do you want your Rolls to be downgraded at any point in the future because someone moved the goal posts. I understand your caution.

Here''s the thing that strikes me though Chrono. When I first saw that stone, the colour of it put me in mind of an emerald - not that I thought it was an emerald mind you. But if that''s the shade of green that you love, why not look at emeralds? Now I know they can be a bit of minefield because of their treatments etc, but if you get a certed stone from a reputable source, then your value would be assured.

Just a thought.

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/7/2009 11:56:29 AM
Author: Gailey

Date: 4/7/2009 10:43:00 AM
Author: Chrono
Peter,
I love the stone but here''s the issue:
The trade decided on a new category for green grossular garnets called tsavorites and priced them higher than ''regular'' green grossular garnets. Therefore, I think it is important to ask this question because pricing is affected by the classification.

I understand you perfectly Chrono. There''s more to it than the ''if you love it, buy it and if you don''t, move on'' theory. You don''t want to be paying for a Rolls Royce if you''re getting a Fiat. Nor do you want your Rolls to be downgraded at any point in the future because someone moved the goal posts. I understand your caution.

Here''s the thing that strikes me though Chrono. When I first saw that stone, the colour of it put me in mind of an emerald - not that I thought it was an emerald mind you. But if that''s the shade of green that you love, why not look at emeralds? Now I know they can be a bit of minefield because of their treatments etc, but if you get a certed stone from a reputable source, then your value would be assured.

Just a thought.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Gailey, you expressed it in words very well. I don''t want to pay for a Rolls Royce if I''m getting a Fiat (no offence to Fiat enthusiasts). And at the same time, I am very attracted to this stone because of its emerald like colour.

 

[FrekeChild]

Well who is it that you want to recognize it as a tsav? Normal people won''t get it. I think PSers would have problems trying to classify it, although I think emerald may come first, but it doesn''t look like any old tourmaline at any rate. I don''t think that anyone here would necessarily assume it''s a tourm either. I think that jewelry sales people would have no idea, but probably assume it''s an emerald or a tourmaline because they don''t know any better. It just depends on who you want to recognize it as what it is.

 

[ptorraca]

Date: 4/7/2009 12:16:03 PM
Author: Chrono
The trade decided on a new category for green grossular garnets called tsavorites and priced them higher than "regular" green grossular garnets. Therefore, I think it is important to ask this question because pricing is affected by the classification.

Fair enough -- I agree that you should get what you are paying for. e.g., if I''m buying a tsavorite, I expect it to actually be tsavorite, not a lesser grade of green garnet. (Gailey: well put!)

But as FrekeChild points out, much depends on why you are buying the stone. If I''m a collector wanting a tsavorite, I care very much about the exact ID of the stone and would likely be willing to pay a premium. However, if I''m just someone who was caught by the color and content with the price, it''s a different matter.

After reading Chrono''s response, I went back and re-read more carefully -- sorry, my advice was too general for this thread. Really loving a stone is still a criteria, but second to ID. It''s clear to me that Chrono should insist on tsavorite, not a similar looking grossular garnet. So, to my mind, getting independent verification of the stone''s ID is pretty important. Having Hughe''s "blessing" on it would be good enough for me, assuming he inspected it in person.

You might be interested to know that this whole subject is a huge bugbear in buying rough, especially in the field. When the local miners find something greenish and garnet-like, it becomes "tsavorite", no matter the actual ID. Of course, some of the miners are experienced enough to get the right ID, some are not, and some are just dishonest. If you''re buying straight from Africa (or in Africa!), it''s very important to be able to trust your vendor.

OK, back to the ol'' grindstone for me...


peter

 

[beaujolais]

Oh Chrono:

After I posted to you, this a.m., asking, toward the end, "Why green, if you aren''t much into green?" - I wanted to edit but I really had to go off to work. You know I didn''t mean to seem annoying or anything with that, I hope. I understand the thinking. I''m not much into the color yellow, however I really love AJ''s new yellow stone (https://www.pricescope.com/forum/colored-stones/vendor-pictures-and-owner-pictures-of-ps-stones-t109420-120.html) and that has peaked my interest in yellow stones.

I have a med/dark tsav, 1.5 ct or so, in a white bezel pendant. It is an incredible stone. The brilliance - OMG ! ! ! I hope you will love yours as much.

Best,

sonoma

 

[innerkitten]

I always like things that are a bit different so I would love to have a tsavorite like that one. Of course in the end it''s up to you since you''ll be the owner of the stone. Maybe you need to see it in person?

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 4/7/2009 5:00:48 PM
Author: innerkitten
I always like things that are a bit different so I would love to have a tsavorite like that one. Of course in the end it''s up to you since you''ll be the owner of the stone. Maybe you need to see it in person?

That is what I was going to say. I think it is always better to judge stone with your eyes.

 

[T L]

Date: 4/7/2009 11:56:29 AM
Author: Gailey

Date: 4/7/2009 10:43:00 AM
Author: Chrono
Peter,
I love the stone but here's the issue:
The trade decided on a new category for green grossular garnets called tsavorites and priced them higher than 'regular' green grossular garnets. Therefore, I think it is important to ask this question because pricing is affected by the classification.

I understand you perfectly Chrono. There's more to it than the 'if you love it, buy it and if you don't, move on' theory. You don't want to be paying for a Rolls Royce if you're getting a Fiat. Nor do you want your Rolls to be downgraded at any point in the future because someone moved the goal posts. I understand your caution.

Here's the thing that strikes me though Chrono. When I first saw that stone, the colour of it put me in mind of an emerald - not that I thought it was an emerald mind you. But if that's the shade of green that you love, why not look at emeralds? Now I know they can be a bit of minefield because of their treatments etc, but if you get a certed stone from a reputable source, then your value would be assured.

Just a thought.

Untreated two carat emeralds in fine color are also uber expensive, at least to me. I was looking at that Afghani one on gemlineinc's website, and it was 3.5 carats with very little treatment, and it was as much as a car!! Also, the inclusions can put people off, but to find a very clean emerald in that color in two carats.

Besides, to me, emeralds are so different than tsavorites. Okay, they may both look green, but emeralds are velvety in their appearance, whilst tsavorites are more brilliant. I know most laypeople wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but I could.

 

[Harriet]

Ptorraca,
Thanks for the "GGG" alert.

TL,
I''m with you -- emeralds and tsavorites have very different lustres and I love them both. But, I also love the inclusions in emeralds. Geek!

 

[T L]

Date: 4/7/2009 6:49:55 PM
Author: Harriet
Ptorraca,
Thanks for the 'GGG' alert.

TL,
I'm with you -- emeralds and tsavorites have very different lustres and I love them both. But, I also love the inclusions in emeralds. Geek!

Thanks Harriet. I don't mind inclusions in emeralds, but I rather they be 80 to 90% transparent, and that's pretty expensive unless you get a very light stone, but then what is the point of having a desaturated emerald. However, that Afghan emerald is one of the cleanest and deepest colored ones I have seen outside of something around Elizabeth Taylor's neck or in a museum.

 

[Harriet]

Have you seen the crystal in the AMNH? Wow!

Someday, I hope to have a glowing emerald with a blue secondary.

 

[icekid]

Chrono- I agree with Ltl... this may be one that you really need to see in person to know if it is for you. From the photos, I love it too- but I totally hear you on not wanting to pay "top" tsav price if the one you love does not fit that category.

I don''t think I''ve ever actually seen really fabulous tsav in person... another reason to visit Harriet

(or else how will I ever choose my own?)

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well I don''t know about the technicalities, but that is a GORGEOUS color to me.. like you I don''t like the typical tsav color. LOOVE this neon green though! But, if it isn''t a true trade-labeled tsav I wouldn''t want to pay the premium...

On the other hand, is it worth the premium if you really love it? Or can you find a regular ol'' green garnet this color and avoid the premium?

PS: Too late TGal, the sapphire is miiiinneee

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/7/2009 10:27:19 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
Well I don''t know about the technicalities, but that is a GORGEOUS color to me.. like you I don''t like the typical tsav color. LOOVE this neon green though! But, if it isn''t a true trade-labeled tsav I wouldn''t want to pay the premium...

On the other hand, is it worth the premium if you really love it? Or can you find a regular ol'' green garnet this color and avoid the premium?

PS: Too late TGal, the sapphire is miiiinneee

The problem is regular garnets aren''t as attractive either. Many are too light or yellow or gray or has something deficient.

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/7/2009 6:07:04 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker

Date: 4/7/2009 5:00:48 PM
Author: innerkitten
I always like things that are a bit different so I would love to have a tsavorite like that one. Of course in the end it''s up to you since you''ll be the owner of the stone. Maybe you need to see it in person?

That is what I was going to say. I think it is always better to judge stone with your eyes.

I was hesitant to see it with my own eyes because of potential shipping issues. This stone will be coming directly from Africa. Can you imagine how I''m going to return it if I don''t like it?

Well, I''ve worked it out with the vendor and I''m giving it a chance. I''m placing the order tomorrow because now I''m having payment issues (paypal).

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/7/2009 6:11:16 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/7/2009 11:56:29 AM
Author: Gailey

Date: 4/7/2009 10:43:00 AM
Author: Chrono
Peter,
I love the stone but here''s the issue:
The trade decided on a new category for green grossular garnets called tsavorites and priced them higher than ''regular'' green grossular garnets. Therefore, I think it is important to ask this question because pricing is affected by the classification.

I understand you perfectly Chrono. There''s more to it than the ''if you love it, buy it and if you don''t, move on'' theory. You don''t want to be paying for a Rolls Royce if you''re getting a Fiat. Nor do you want your Rolls to be downgraded at any point in the future because someone moved the goal posts. I understand your caution.

Here''s the thing that strikes me though Chrono. When I first saw that stone, the colour of it put me in mind of an emerald - not that I thought it was an emerald mind you. But if that''s the shade of green that you love, why not look at emeralds? Now I know they can be a bit of minefield because of their treatments etc, but if you get a certed stone from a reputable source, then your value would be assured.

Just a thought.

Untreated two carat emeralds in fine color are also uber expensive, at least to me. I was looking at that Afghani one on gemlineinc''s website, and it was 3.5 carats with very little treatment, and it was as much as a car!! Also, the inclusions can put people off, but to find a very clean emerald in that color in two carats.

Besides, to me, emeralds are so different than tsavorites. Okay, they may both look green, but emeralds are velvety in their appearance, whilst tsavorites are more brilliant. I know most laypeople wouldn''t be able to tell the difference, but I could.

Yup. As lovely as emeralds and tsavorites are, they appear different to my eye. The emerald is "softer" and has a colour one can down it. The tsavorite is rich green sparkle.

 

[chrono]

Latest update:

I''m still in communication with Richard Hughes and he has taught me so much in just 2 days. I''ll start a new thread on how my eyes and more importantly, mind, is opened. For those still interested in what he has to say about the stone based on the 2 pictures, the saturation is medium to strong, the tone is medium and the colour is very pretty. The cut is also good. That''s all I needed to hear from a well respected expert in the field. If he considers this a medium tone, then I suppose the trade would also consider it a tsavorite since the tone must be at least medium and higher. But I''ll touch on that in a bit.

In RH''s tsavorite buying guide, there is no mention of tone to classify a "regular" green grossular garnet versus a tsavorite. What makes a tsavorite a tsavorite is the saturation. The green should be as intense as possible. Dark tones and yellowish tones should be avoided. That''s all there is to it.

http://www.palagems.com/tsavorite_bancroft.htm
Scroll all the way down to RH''s guide and the example picture. The ideal tsavorite has a medium tone. The stone is quite bright and surprisngly sort of light looking. I guess I''ve been conditioned to think that fine tsavorites should look like the one on the right which shows a darker tone but I really don''t like stones on the dark side. I already have issues with medium dark tones.

 

[TravelingGal]

Chrono, looking forward to hearing about your opinion on the stone (because I know we won''t see any pics of it!

). I totally understand what you are going through re: what classifies a stone being a tsav and the decision hinging on that. I went through a similar thing with a pad. Unfortunately for me, I chose to go at it pretty much alone when I really could have used the opinions on this forum.

Good luck on this one!

 

[Harriet]

Chrono,
I've never questioned you before (except on the ong lai stone

), but are you overthinking things? Not only is Eric listing the gem at an extremely reasonable price, he also mines the gem and should know a thing or two about it. No offence meant.

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/8/2009 12:38:29 AM
Author: TravelingGal
Chrono, looking forward to hearing about your opinion on the stone (because I know we won''t see any pics of it!

). I totally understand what you are going through re: what classifies a stone being a tsav and the decision hinging on that. I went through a similar thing with a pad. Unfortunately for me, I chose to go at it pretty much alone when I really could have used the opinions on this forum.

Good luck on this one!

Hehe! You know me too well about the picture thing.

It''s always good to ask to bounce some ideas around and maybe something I didn''t consider might pop out. I am also most thankful to Richard Hughes for setting me straight.

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/8/2009 1:58:35 AM
Author: Harriet
Chrono,
I''ve never questioned you before (except on the ong lai stone

), but are you overthinking things? Not only is Eric listing the gem at an extremely reasonable price, he also mines the gem and should know a thing or two about it. No offence meant.

Yes, maam. I am over-analyzing again. It''s built into my nature as I am an engineer. We think things to death and try to compartmentalize everything. However, thanks for saving me from that ong lai stone. In further emails with Eric, I''ve come to see his interpretation of colour and stone and I''m now looking forward to receiving the tsavorite. He showed me some very high quality mints and green grossular garnets that he has and I see the difference. It isn''t only the tone but the intensity of colour. No offense at all.

 

[T L]

My husband is also an engineer and it took him two years to figure out which patio set to buy

, so I think you''re okay for an engineer!! LOL!!

At one point, I just wanted to throw a patio set at his head, I was so sick of looking at so many.

 

[Harriet]

TL,
Do what my mother would do. Just buy the patio set or threaten to do so.