Swiss and Russian corundum?

[gemnut]

Hi Guys!

I figured if anyone can help me with this, then it''s some of you knowledgeable people

A few days ago, a dealer who I know is a reputable gemologist in my area, came out with some fantastic stones. He guarantees that they are mined corundum from Switzerland and Russia and somewhere in Africa I think. They come in all colors, are boindingly beautiful, the clearest "rubies" and "sapphires" I''ve ever seen, and they sell at 1/10th the cost of regular rubies and sapphires.

He won''t call them rubies or sapphires, but he does guarantee that they are mined corundum.

Has anyone heard of any such finds, and what would this new stuff be? Why would corundum of any kind of such beauty sell at such a low price?

Gemnut

 

[PrecisionGem]

Sounds like "mined" corundum that was mined in the laboritory. Russia is famous for lab created corundum. Same hardness and other physical charactoristics of the real thing, but grown in a lab. THey are always very beautiful colors, and clean, but is very inexpensive material.

 

[valeria101]

Swiss? No... unless there is a new mine started yesterday. Russia? In theory there are sources, but no so productive and such stones would probably be sold wit particular mention of their origin.

I'd so bet on the stones being lab made or otherwise engineered so that the commercial presentation can still say 'mined' if some of the rough material used is. Maybe there is a good reason to call the Russian and Swiss, but even that sounds like simple name dropping.

Anyway, the description sounds like a real' cute

way of encouraging wishful thinking from buyers' part. Definitely misleading, although not very subtle.


These being said, I don't have much to say against synthetics or treatments that come with reasonable disclosure. There is more to the value of the precious stones, but their beauty alone has value too - and synthetics have the looks for most purposes.

My 2c

Adding one question:

Heard casually about some new way of engineering gem grade corundum by processing non-gem quality natural rough near the melting point. Different sellers tell different stories about what and where is done (from high temperature heating, to recrystallization), and didn't get to look any reasonable source yet. The seller's story that started this thread sounds much like those - the selling point being that the material is somehow 'natural' or 'mined' and otherwise mysterious. Any idea what if any fact is behind the fiction?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

"Geneva" ruby is synthetic ruby, and as Gene points out, the Russians are famous for synthetic corundum.

At 1/10th the price of natural, there''s not much else it could be other than synthetic.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 4/1/2006 1:56:41 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
At 1/10th the price of natural, there''s not much else it could be other than synthetic.

One possibility that occurs to me, Rich, is natural white mined sapphire that''s been surface-diffused. Natural white corundum is very scarce these days and the word is that it''s much in demand for ''improvement'' by diffusion. While the main process deposits a very layer of blue, it wouldn''t surprise me if the gem ''gnomes of Zurich'' and Novosibirsk have discovered ways to diffuse other colors as well. It''s certainly already happening with topaz!

Richard M.

 

[gemnut]

Thank you for the information. I did suspect that it was synthetic and asked pointedly about it. The gentleman and his associates assert that they are indeed natural mined stones - not synthetic - and that they were very surprised to find them in an expo or an auction in Switzerland, sice they had never seen this mineral before. They further said that although it is corundum, it is a "cousin" mineral to corundum - whatever that means.

I will be asking more questions on the possible processing the stones have undergone on Monday.

Gemnut

 

[valeria101]

Well, that sounds like one far fetched story to me

I'd ask no further questions just never set foot there again.


The description is too fuzzy ('corundum cousin'? what if it was the nephew ) and too long... i.e. with too many nebulous explanations etc. If they were so interested to find out what the deal was and prove natural origin to buyers, there are ways to do that, right ? (gemological ID from labs).

You could ask for a straightforward ID of the material, but at this point... there really is no doubt for me that what they have is a cute sales scheme and a bucket of synthetics.

 

[Richard M.]

Hi,

Your first post says they claimed they were natural corundums, then later you say they called them ''cousins'' of corundum. I agree with Ana: there are some ''strange relationships'' going on here. Something is very wrong with this story.

Richard M.

 

[colorchange]

Wow funny story.
Would you consider the idea of registering them and dropping everything to the police (if your police is interrested, in France we have a specific police for that) ?

Clearly no sapphire has ever been mined in Switzerland.
Africa (Tanzania and Madagascar, and also Nigeria and some other) are producing some fine sapphires but nowdays you''re a very lucky guy if you have 20% off the "traditionnal deposit" ''s price on these. And every color don''t come out.


Richard, even surface diffused is worth something, as you mentionned white sapphire is much in demand, if the stones are very clean after diffusion, they must be quite clean before. Fine white sapphire is now priced well, but I don''t know the exact price they offer.

I feel you have several questions to ask :
- Did they buy the lot knowing what they were buying or trusting someone ?
- If they know what they sell :
- Is it corundum ?
- If not, is it spinel ? (some say it''s a cousin of sapphire)
- If not what is it chemicaly ?
- If something was mined, what exactly ? Aluminium ? Corundum ? Small ? Large ?
- What process has there been between what was mined and what you see ? Heating ? Recristalisation ? Melting ? Overgrowing ? etc etc etc
- Are they able to get a certificate from AGTA mentioning it as a natural gemstone.

 

[TKC]

My guess would be reconstructed mined corundum that they do not want to call neither sapphires nor rubies. I heard that there are reconstructed amethyst, peridot and other quartz family and probably other low quality gemstones, too. That is my guess.

 

[firebirdgold]

Date: 4/2/2006 3:44:35 AM
Author: TKC
My guess would be reconstructed mined corundum that they do not want to call neither sapphires nor rubies. I heard that there are reconstructed amethyst, peridot and other quartz family and probably other low quality gemstones, too. That is my guess.

Reconstructed mined corundum?!? WHAT? I''ve never heard of this!
*groan*

Why do people do this sort of thing to the gem market? I think Dante missed a hell.

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 4/2/2006 4:32:47 AM
Author: Wren

Date: 4/2/2006 3:44:35 AM

Author: TKC

My guess would be reconstructed mined corundum that they do not want to call neither sapphires nor rubies. I heard that there are reconstructed amethyst, peridot and other quartz family and probably other low quality gemstones, too. That is my guess.

Reconstructed mined corundum?!? WHAT? I''ve never heard of this!

*groan*

Why do people do this sort of thing to the gem market? I think Dante missed a hell.

LOL Wren.

 

[gemnut]

Hi Richard

You are right. This was because I was quoting 2 different people I spoke to. The gemologist himself claimed that it is "natural corundum" and he did imply that it was processed somehow by these people in Geneva, but when I took this issue up with one of his assistants, he gave me the "cousin" explanation. I can''t waitr to ask more questions tomorrow!

Gemnut

 

[gemnut]

I feel you have several questions to ask :
- Did they buy the lot knowing what they were buying or trusting someone ?
- If they know what they sell :
- Is it corundum ?
- If not, is it spinel ? (some say it''s a cousin of sapphire)
- If not what is it chemicaly ?
- If something was mined, what exactly ? Aluminium ? Corundum ? Small ? Large ?
- What process has there been between what was mined and what you see ? Heating ? Recristalisation ? Melting ? Overgrowing ? etc etc etc
- Are they able to get a certificate from AGTA mentioning it as a natural gemstone
------------------------------------------------------

Thamk you Colorchange. It''s a good list of questions and exactly what I am planning to ask tomorrow.

No. there are no special police that I know of here for gem fraud. Apart of the things that could be WRONG with such gems, can someone tell me if there could be a process that might be acceptable to make corrundum bright and clear and reasonble if sold at 1/10th of the price?

Perhaps it would help if I added the information that this busnessman was so enthused with these baubles, he bought exclusive rights to market them in this area.

I like the irradiated white sapphire theory and I got the impression that this is a process involving high tech. Since I''m not an expert - simply a curious gemnut - I can only base my conclusions on the things I have learned on the net and in PS.

It might even be worth buying the thing just so I can send it for testing!!

Gemnut

 

[TKC]

Date: 4/2/2006 4:32:47 AM
Author: Wren

Date: 4/2/2006 3:44:35 AM
Author: TKC
My guess would be reconstructed mined corundum that they do not want to call neither sapphires nor rubies. I heard that there are reconstructed amethyst, peridot and other quartz family and probably other low quality gemstones, too. That is my guess.

Reconstructed mined corundum?!? WHAT? I''ve never heard of this!
*groan*

Why do people do this sort of thing to the gem market? I think Dante missed a hell.

I heard that reconstructed means that the low quality gemstones, in this case is mined corundum, are melted into molten crystal, just like molten metal or synthetic corundum. I believe this can be possible because Geneva is famous for its high quality synthetic corundum. Therefore, they may have the technology to reconstruct the low quality mined corundum. This is just my guess. The word "recontructed" was told by one of my uncle''s friends. He has a silver workshop and using reconstructed peridots, amethysts, and other semi precious gemstones. If this happens to corundum, we may find beautiful colored "natural" corundum soon if they can mix other gemstones together, like mined corundum is melted together with mined peridot or other gemstones, just like mixing alloy.

Hey, this is just my guess.

 

[TKC]

Date: 4/1/2006 4:10:30 PM
Author: Richard M.
Hi,

Your first post says they claimed they were natural corundums, then later you say they called them ''cousins'' of corundum. I agree with Ana: there are some ''strange relationships'' going on here. Something is very wrong with this story.

Richard M.

I think one of the reasons they want to call them "cousin corundum" because they do not want to get sued one day by saying that their corundum is natural sapphires or rubies

I think this is the way they play with the word. Another is reason, is probably that their mined corundum is melted together with other gemstones that makes new kind of crystal (in this case, mined corundum and let''s say mined peridot). Of course, this new crystal will not be called corundum. It may be called "cousin of corundum" as they call it. This is just my guess.

 

[TKC]

If the natural gemstones are melted like molten metal, can they still be called "natural" gemstones, can''t they?

Just like when I heard from the jewelry television saying that their irradiated diamonds are natural diamonds. When they were selling, they are always talking how rare is the diamond and bla....bla....bla......rarely focusing on the irradiated word. The irradiated word is only on the screen, mentioned one or twice when they are talking. Natural and natural and natural are what they were talking and focusing.

 

[Richard M.]

Gemnut & TKC:

TKCs comments about ''reconstructed'' stones clicked a button in my memory. I knew a gem dealer about 10 years ago (now retired) who claimed to be selling reconstructed ruby. The idea involved using inferior quality natural gems which were transformed through his (secret) process into the finest gem quality stones. I saw them and they were indeed very beautiful and much like the ones Gemnut describes. I''ve heard similar stories about ''reconstructed'' emeralds and sapphires but haven''t yet pinned them down. I believe the emeralds I read about were Russian in origin.

I spent some time today researching that process. One source said the first synthetic ruby was produced in 1817 by melting two natural rubies together, perhaps the world''s first ''reconstructed'' gem. Verneuil made the first true commercial synthetic ruby in 1902 by melting pure aluminum oxide in his special furnace.

Kurt Nassau, an expert on synthetic gems (I need his out-of-print books if anyone has some to sell!) wrote this in Journal of Crystal Growth, 5:338-334, 10 1969, ''reconstructed'' or ''geneva'' ruby:

"An early form of synthetic ruby of unknown technology was investigated by chemical analysis and by macroscopic and microscopic examination. Based on this a flame-fusion technique using two torches, crystal rotation, and a complex three-step seeding and growth procedure is deduced. Both from the low iron content, and from the result of melting experiments using natural ruby, it is deduced that purified alumina was used as the feed material. Since this early ''Geneva'' synthetic ruby (it was later also designated ''reconstructed'' ruby) was manufactured as early as 1885, the process predates the Verneuil flame-fusion technique."

I also ran across a supplier selling ''reconstructed'' ruby made by ICT, Inc. in Shelby, MI. This is the same company that made most of America''s first cubic zirconia back in the 1970s.

The description say: "ICT...is the only crystal manufacturer that has mastered the process of turning natural ruby crystals--not good enough quality to cut--into perfect stones. Larry Kelly worked on the process for ten years before successfully melting Natural Ruby and then finding a way to crystallize the molten Ruby liquid into beautiful gemstones. He is the only person in the world doing it." Now I think I know where my gem dealer friend was getting his rough stones. The rough sells for about $40/gram.

On a trip to the Tucson show about 20 years ago I was astounded to find a dealer selling what he called "German Block:" ''loaves'' of ''reconstructed'' massive gems like turquoise, lapis lazuli, azurite & chrysocolla, malachite, etc. You simply sawed off slabs and cut stones to shape, unencumbered by fractures and inclusions. The stuff looked phony to my practiced eye but it was good enough to fool tourists on a cruise I took to Mexico some years later. Nearly all the silver jewelry offered by shoreside vendors featured either lab amethyst and other lab-made faceted stones, or ''block'' stones.

As they say on the cop shows: Be careful out there, folks.

 

[firebirdgold]

Date: 4/2/2006 3:59:49 PM
Author: TKC
Another is reason, is probably that their mined corundum is melted together with other gemstones that makes new kind of crystal (in this case, mined corundum and let''s say mined peridot). Of course, this new crystal will not be called corundum. It may be called ''cousin of corundum'' as they call it. This is just my guess.

(Aluminum Oxide + Magnesium Iron SIlicate) != new crystal.

It''s been a long time since Chemistry, and I never did finish my GG, but I''m pretty sure about this one. It''s not like this stuff can be alloyed or is a horse-zebra cross!

So basically reconstructed mined corundum is the same as synthetic corundum only they are using melted corundum as the main ingredient instead of straight aluminum oxide from some lab. right? And they do this so they don''t have to call it synthetic corundum?

No offense to your uncle TKC, but I''ve never understood why someone would want to use fake peridot or amethyst. It''s not like they are very expensive or rare to start with.

Why is it that people are so resistent to believing that you get what you pay for???

 

[colorchange]

Date: 4/2/2006 3:59:49 PM
Author: TKC

Date: 4/1/2006 4:10:30 PM
Author: Richard M.
Hi,

Your first post says they claimed they were natural corundums, then later you say they called them ''cousins'' of corundum. I agree with Ana: there are some ''strange relationships'' going on here. Something is very wrong with this story.

Richard M.

I think one of the reasons they want to call them ''cousin corundum'' because they do not want to get sued one day by saying that their corundum is natural sapphires or rubies

I think this is the way they play with the word.

I don''t know about the US law but is France this is far more than needed to be sued... a professional jeweller/gem dealer has to be as straight as he can about treatments, hidding one is just like lying.

 

[TKC]

Date: 4/2/2006 5:15:38 PM
Author: Wren

Date: 4/2/2006 3:59:49 PM
Author: TKC
Another is reason, is probably that their mined corundum is melted together with other gemstones that makes new kind of crystal (in this case, mined corundum and let''s say mined peridot). Of course, this new crystal will not be called corundum. It may be called ''cousin of corundum'' as they call it. This is just my guess.

(Aluminum Oxide + Magnesium Iron SIlicate) != new crystal.

It''s been a long time since Chemistry, and I never did finish my GG, but I''m pretty sure about this one. It''s not like this stuff can be alloyed or is a horse-zebra cross!

So basically reconstructed mined corundum is the same as synthetic corundum only they are using melted corundum as the main ingredient instead of straight aluminum oxide from some lab. right? And they do this so they don''t have to call it synthetic corundum?

No offense to your uncle TKC, but I''ve never understood why someone would want to use fake peridot or amethyst. It''s not like they are very expensive or rare to start with.

Why is it that people are so resistent to believing that you get what you pay for???

I am not a chemist. Therefore, I do not know if they can be mixed. I said that was just my guess. Wren, they are not fake peridot or amethyst. He said "reconstructed" peridot and amethyst which he said from melted natural peridot or amethyst. He said that those reconstructed peridot and amethyst are from China. My uncle''s friend workshop is producing silver jewelries that are sold to silver wholesalers. The silver jewelries need to be as cheap as possible, even every penny counts. Since "reconstructed" peridot is natural peridot as he said, it will make people''s perception as natural peridot, unlike synthetic or fake peridot. I believe that the cost of the reconstructed peridot is way much cheaper than untreated or treated peridot. Again, you have to consider that every penny counts. I believe, in cheap silver jewelries, people don''t really care about the gemstone''s treatments in the jewelries. What they care is whether they are natural or synthetic or fake. Most people who bought cheap silver jewelries, I guess, are not too familiar with gemstone''s treatments. What they know is whether the gemstones are natural or synthetic or fake. Again, that is my guess.

 

[valeria101]

Wait a minute...

Peridot is yet another beast. That, I haven''t heard to have been produced that way. Quartz is so cheap synthetic, I can''t imagine who and why would bother to melt down amethyst (isn''t the color heat sensitive anyway?). Not to mention almost no one cares if citrine and amethyst are natural or not. I am quite curious about peridot though - that''s one stone I didn''t know there are synthetics for. Live and learn

Somewhere it was mentioned that these stones were cute and 1/10 the cost of fine untreated ones (''bet in larger size that ration would get allot less). I would rather compare the looks and cost to straightforward synthetics and call it a day. no way in hell these things have the same appeal as the natural stones aside looks - which is as much as synthetics can claim any day. The story with the whole-grain natural corundum ''cousin'' gives me a nice headache. What''s wrong with synthetics anyway ? If these are either not as nice or not as cheap, beats me what the advantage is.... although the production may be cheaper than it is for traditional synthetics, who knows?

Perhaps this sounds angry a bit. I'' more ... tired of the story about various ''degrees of treatment'' for sapphire. For years now, every few months there''s yet another sort of ''Natural Sapphire TM."


I am very convinced that synthetics have value as long as they do have the looks: if ugly natural gems are worth nothing, perhaps beauty has a price and value of its own. If they allow beautiful jewelry to be made, I don''t mind knowing what they are. I surely do mind lack of disclosure and double talk (like the story given on the thread sounds like: ''ya know, it is natural sapphire... , but...'' It sounds like both the true identity of synthetics and naturals and their respective perception of value suffers from the deliberate ambiguity.

 

[gemnut]

Wow! what an interesting discussion this has turned out to be! I think that I have learned more in this thread than all the previous studying I''ve done on treatments and synthetics combined.

OK, here is the latest news on the "mystery stone". Please keep in mind that I am not a gemologist or a chemist, so if I make a mess of this explanation forgive me.

I spoke to the gemologist himself today. He still insists on calling the stones corundum, mined in Russia and Zimbabwe (the red stones) and in Switzerland (the blue stones). Pressed further, he said that the chemical analysis they did, does place the stone in the broader corundum family, however, it also resembles quartz and amethyst. The stones undergo heating treatment and some sort of mysterious other treatment "with computers". He doesn''t claim that they belong in the precious stone category, they are simply beautiful stones (an assessment I agree with).

I decided to buy one of their (cheapest) rings so I can play with it a bit.

(My curiosity is overpowering!)

I will post pics when I receive it in a couple of days.

I agree with some of the posters here that there is absolutely nothing wrong with synthetics or treated stones if they are beautiful and as long as you know what you are buying. This "mystery stone" has really intrigued me, and I sort of like the idea that I will be one of the first to possess one. At least I hope that my objections in regards to the naming of the stones will make them think twice about how they present them in the future.

Gemnut

 

[colorchange]

Wow that''s strange.
Quartz and corundum have nothing to do together and I''m really love to know what has been mined in Switzerland, never hear of any kind of mining there !!!!
It can''t be a corundum and have anything to do with quartz as far as I know !

The problem is not so much "precious" but natural. What is natural in it ? You don''t cook anything with a computer, you just control cooking, what has your stone been through ?

 

[PrecisionGem]

Just out of curiosity, what are they selling this mystry stone for? Do you have a price per ct.? What county is this jeweler in? The USA? It sounds like he has no idea what he is talking about, or is just giving you a bunch of double talk.
I have said it before it, but from my experiance, if a deal is to good to be true, then it is not true.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 4/3/2006 9:27:13 AM
Author: gemnut

I spoke to the gemologist himself today. He still insists on calling the stones corundum, mined in Russia and Zimbabwe (the red stones) and in Switzerland (the blue stones). Pressed further, he said that the chemical analysis they did, does place the stone in the broader corundum family, however, it also resembles quartz and amethyst. The stones undergo heating treatment and some sort of mysterious other treatment ''with computers''.

If I found myself face to face with a "gemologist" who equated corundum and quartz chemistry there would be an interesting confrontation. The only physical property they share is crystal system. Diamonds and table salt also share the same system! While it''s certainly okay to buy an inexpensive stone that appeals to you, man-made or not, my advice would be to treat this seller with extreme caution! Maybe when the story is completely spun out it will make some sort of sense, but from the information presented so far it sounds to me like a fairy tale. Maybe the stones come from the Seven Dwarves'' gem mine.

Richard M.

 

[colorchange]

I guess I have a clue :
There''s some gem mining in Little Switzerland, North Carolina

Seriously, no mining in Switzerland !

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Buy one so we''ll all know...

 

[colorchange]

Seems lile it''s alredy done !
Maybe you could check it...

 

[gemnut]

Ok guys, here it is at long last!!

Here is the guarantee:

ring, gold 18K with 1 Red Corundum 3.16 cts and white sapphires.

Pretty skmpy, huh?

It took all this time because I needed it resized. I also asked for the chemical description of the stone.... guess what? They sent me an excerpt from Wikipedia on "corundum"!
I called them again today and had an argument with them. After a while, they did consent to "try" to send me precise chemical makeup of this specific stone.
I have a feling that I''ll be waiting for it for a loooong time.

At any rate, the ring is beautiful at least