Teaser pics of red spinels available!

[bright ice]

It's here, give me your thoughts. Pardon the oil from my fingers.

 

[innerkitten]

Beautiful! It is red with orange in it. What are your thoughts? Is it what you were expecting?

 

[bright ice]

I am not quite sure what I was expecting other than I was hoping to be blown away with it which I am not. Don't get me wrong it is pretty but I don't think for what it cost I FEEL it!

 

[innerkitten]

Bummer. That has happened to me before too. Don't feel bad though because if you don't wind up keeping it the perfect one will come your way eventually. You can always sleep on it.

 

[y2kitty]

Wow, I see way more orange in your pictures than Doug's. I'm sorry bright_ice, I never would have guessed Doug's description would be so off. It is beautiful, but it cost way too much for the color.

 

[T L]

I am not quite sure what I was expecting other than I was hoping to be blown away with it which I am not. Don't get me wrong it is pretty but I don't think for what it cost I FEEL it!

If your photos are accurate, it's not worth any where near what you paid, so send it back. It reminds me of a spessartite garnet actually, it's so orange, and I see brown too. I'm sorry BrightIce. I had a lot of returns in my lifetime too, but at least you're a more educated consumer now. The spinel also looks very sleepy, which also greatly affects value in these gems.

I think once you get a truly fine Mahenge, you will be blown away. I had to go through a lot of dud stones before I got my hands on some nice ones.

 

[bright ice]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your opinions. I fully agree.

 

[movie zombie]

like TL i thought garnet when i saw it......but not, unfortunately, a garnet that would sell for that price. if you're still not swooning with delight, i'd take advantage of the return policy.

MoZo

 

[T L]

like TL i thought garnet when i saw it......but not, unfortunately, a garnet that would sell for that price. if you're still not swooning with delight, i'd take advantage of the return policy.

MoZo

Editing post:
I think I misread your post, I think you said a garnet would not sell for that price, and I agree.

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

Awww, I am so sorry this didn't work out ~ I hate that.
I was really truly rooting for you !!!!!!!!!!

Back to the hunt I guess. That can be fun too......

 

[Aoife]

I posted on your "Calling Chrono" thread, but I just wanted to comment here, too, because the discrepancy between what you received, and the vendor's description really, really bothers me. Anyone who works with colored gemstones knows that pure red, without any modifiers, is highly sought after, and commands a premium price. When a vendor lists a gemstone as being pure red, and then it turns out to have a strong orange component, that makes me question the accuracy of all his descriptions. Considering what the stone cost you, plus what you paid in shipping, etc., I think this qualifies as substantially not as represented. Yes, everyone sees color differently, but this isn't even close, and as an observer, would make me really hesitate to buy anything from Bespoke in the future.

 

[bright ice]

Yes, back to the hunt. Check out the forum titled "Calling Chrono", I have posted some new possibilities.

 

[bright ice]

I posted on your "Calling Chrono" thread, but I just wanted to comment here, too, because the discrepancy between what you received, and the vendor's description really, really bothers me. Anyone who works with colored gemstones knows that pure red, without any modifiers, is highly sought after, and commands a premium price. When a vendor lists a gemstone as being pure red, and then it turns out to have a strong orange component, that makes me question the accuracy of all his descriptions. Considering what the stone cost you, plus what you paid in shipping, etc., I think this qualifies as substantially not as represented. Yes, everyone sees color differently, but this isn't even close, and as an observer, would make me really hesitate to buy anything from Bespoke in the future.

The cost to see it is the bummer, I am responsible for it coming to me and going back with shipping and insurance because I am not keeping it. Quite a costly viewing

 

[LD]

I posted on your "Calling Chrono" thread, but I just wanted to comment here, too, because the discrepancy between what you received, and the vendor's description really, really bothers me. Anyone who works with colored gemstones knows that pure red, without any modifiers, is highly sought after, and commands a premium price. When a vendor lists a gemstone as being pure red, and then it turns out to have a strong orange component, that makes me question the accuracy of all his descriptions. Considering what the stone cost you, plus what you paid in shipping, etc., I think this qualifies as substantially not as represented. Yes, everyone sees color differently, but this isn't even close, and as an observer, would make me really hesitate to buy anything from Bespoke in the future.

Aoife - I don't disagree with you BUT I think it's important to remember that some people just don't "see" modifiers. Just because somebody is in the gemstone world it's not a guarantee they can read colour (suprisingly I know).

Look back at this thread the number of people who said "yep, it's red" and other said "I see orange". Colour is VERY subjective. People can either read and see colours well or they can't. Others don't want to see or can't see it even when it's pointed out. I think this is something we're born with or not. If we're not born with it, we can train our eye but it takes time/practice and I don't know whether they would ever get to the same ability as somebody who has it naturally. Think of an athlete - some can run fast naturally, others have to work and work at it. If they stop, they get slower. The natural athlete maintains his/her natural speed.

I have seen some of our rather well known vendors/lapidarists describe a gem in one way but then I see them (or a photo) and it's NOT as described! Do you remember the thread with Richard Wise where TL, Chrono and I all saw grey in a blue stone but Richard was adamant it had none? I believe somebody bought that stone and reported back that it was indeed very grey. This doesn't mean that Richard was being deceptive in any way. It simply meant that he didn't "see" what others could. Likewise, I'm sure he sees things that we don't!

Of course I'm sure (although NOT in this case) that some Vendors will be deceptive with their descriptions on purpose - but that's another story altogether!

 

[Aoife]

I posted on your "Calling Chrono" thread, but I just wanted to comment here, too, because the discrepancy between what you received, and the vendor's description really, really bothers me. Anyone who works with colored gemstones knows that pure red, without any modifiers, is highly sought after, and commands a premium price. When a vendor lists a gemstone as being pure red, and then it turns out to have a strong orange component, that makes me question the accuracy of all his descriptions. Considering what the stone cost you, plus what you paid in shipping, etc., I think this qualifies as substantially not as represented. Yes, everyone sees color differently, but this isn't even close, and as an observer, would make me really hesitate to buy anything from Bespoke in the future.

Aoife - I don't disagree with you BUT I think it's important to remember that some people just don't "see" modifiers. Just because somebody is in the gemstone world it's not a guarantee they can read colour (suprisingly I know).

Look back at this thread the number of people who said "yep, it's red" and other said "I see orange". Colour is VERY subjective. People can either read and see colours well or they can't. Others don't want to see or can't see it even when it's pointed out. I think this is something we're born with or not. If we're not born with it, we can train our eye but it takes time/practice and I don't know whether they would ever get to the same ability as somebody who has it naturally. Think of an athlete - some can run fast naturally, others have to work and work at it. If they stop, they get slower. The natural athlete maintains his/her natural speed.

I have seen some of our rather well known vendors/lapidarists describe a gem in one way but then I see them (or a photo) and it's NOT as described! Do you remember the thread with Richard Wise where TL, Chrono and I all saw grey in a blue stone but Richard was adamant it had none? I believe somebody bought that stone and reported back that it was indeed very grey. This doesn't mean that Richard was being deceptive in any way. It simply meant that he didn't "see" what others could. Likewise, I'm sure he sees things that we don't!

Of course I'm sure (although NOT in this case) that some Vendors will be deceptive with their descriptions on purpose - but that's another story altogether!

Oh yes, I do indeed have vivid memories of the RW thread (was it a blue spinel?) and I understand your point. For me the problem really revolves around the difficulty of determining an accurate color based on photos--and how many threads have we seen about that!--versus what we see IRL. When I am considering a gemstone, especially if I have not bought from that vendor in the past, I ask a lot of questions about tone, hue, saturation, etc. but I am depending heavily on the ability and willingness of the vendor to answer those questions thoroughly and accurately. If they tend not to see modifiers, they shouldn't, in essence, be stating unequivocally that there aren't any, which is what Doug did with this particular spinel. Trust, trust, trust...

 

[AGBF]

I have seen some of our rather well known vendors/lapidarists describe a gem in one way but then I see them (or a photo) and it's NOT as described! Do you remember the thread with Richard Wise where TL, Chrono and I all saw grey in a blue stone but Richard was adamant it had none? I believe somebody bought that stone and reported back that it was indeed very grey. This doesn't mean that Richard was being deceptive in any way. It simply meant that he didn't "see" what others could. Likewise, I'm sure he sees things that we don't!

I have a major problem with people who sell colored gems and who can't see color well. (I am not referring to Richard Wise as I was not around for the incident you described and I have no knowledge of it.) I don't care, really, if the gemologist is trying to deceive me or if he just has a poor sense of color. Once a seller has once said a stone is "true red" when it's clearly orange, I'm going to hear warning sirens every time I see anything he sells!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!

Deb/AGBF
(what, no whip icon?)

 

[T L]

Yes, I remember the now infamous orange spessartite thread in which Richard Wise saw no brown, but clearly many of us saw brown. I had the same problem with Jeff White not seeing grey, or extinction, but that was a personal issue, and obviously everyone else is happy with his color judgement. I understand that photos may not show accurate colors, so when I ask someone what their opinion of a gem is, I always preface it now with "if the photos are accurate in color. . . " as I realize photos can be lacking in precision when it comes to color. Since BrightIce said Doug's photos and her photos were accurate for color, I'm just appalled he couldn't see that much orange
Sorry, I'm so blunt, but I don't understand how you can be in the business and not see modifiers well. Do you think your precision cutting will overcome all inferior aspects of color within the stone??????

 

[AGBF]

I understand that photos may not show accurate colors, so when I ask someone what their opinion of a gem is, I always preface it now with "if the photos are accurate in color. . . " as I realize photos can be lacking in precision when it comes to color. Since BrightIce said Doug's photos and her photos were accurate for color, I'm just appalled he couldn't see that much orange
Sorry, I'm so blunt, but I don't understand how you can be in the business and not see modifiers well. Do you think your precision cutting will overcome all inferior aspects of color within the stone??????

Tourmaline Lover-I am very much in accord with you about this issue. Very much indeed. I had an absolutely dreadful time attempting to photograph my own red spinel recently. I haven't gone near a camera in weeks, preferring to wait until I could get some expert help rather than even to try again! I could not get into the same neighborhood as the hue of my spinel with a camera!!! I absolutely do not trust photographs! But I do trust people to tell me what they see!!! When I was buying my spinel, I had a friend, whose eye I trusted, looking at stones for me. I really do think that people who work in this field should be able to see color at least as well as you and I do!!!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

The thread is a good one with many good comments, but there are a few sweeping generalizations on color that I find appalling - to put it bluntly. I think an important voice is missing here, the faceters, and you will find them passionate about color.

I am lobbying to have the Spinel sent my way, if it's not too late, so I can try my hand at photographing the difficult red too. It is an all around tough color.

Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[bright ice]

The thread is a good one with many good comments, but there are a few sweeping generalizations on color that I find appalling - to put it bluntly. I think an important voice is missing here, the faceters, and you will find them passionate about color.

I am lobbying to have the Spinel sent my way, if it's not too late, so I can try my hand at photographing the difficult red too. It is an all around tough color.

Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

Jeffrey, could you clarify what you mean by this please?

 

[T L]

The thread is a good one with many good comments, but there are a few sweeping generalizations on color that I find appalling - to put it bluntly. I think an important voice is missing here, the faceters, and you will find them passionate about color.

I am lobbying to have the Spinel sent my way, if it's not too late, so I can try my hand at photographing the difficult red too. It is an all around tough color.

Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

The OP said she saw orange and she said Doug's photos are accurate, so are you accusing her of lying, or being color blind too? Oh and the gem doesn't intensify in red color when outdoors, so have it checked for strong UV fluor while you're at it. You also can't photograph what appears to be the extensive sleepiness away too, can you, as that really affects the value of the stone as well.

The real test of the integrity of the stone would not be for you, a vendor with common interests as Doug, to photograph it, but to send it to the AGL for a color analysis lab report. Don't waste your time photographing it, because as you say we're generalizing, we can accuse you of photoshopping.

And if you're "apalled at the comments," please remember that this is a consumer forum, not a forum to praise everything a particular vendor has. There are no generalizations, there are comments made upon what a human being sees in real life with her own eyes. What would you have us do, send it to someone else to back up her vision??

Send it to the AGL.

Incidentally, this is the thread where the OP said that Doug's photos were pretty "spot on."

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/calling-chrono-please.160979/

 

[LD]

The thread is a good one with many good comments, but there are a few sweeping generalizations on color that I find appalling - to put it bluntly. I think an important voice is missing here, the faceters, and you will find them passionate about color.

I am lobbying to have the Spinel sent my way, if it's not too late, so I can try my hand at photographing the difficult red too. It is an all around tough color.

Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

Jeffrey I'm not sure which comments you may be referring to but (a) the vendor has called this true red but his photo depicts otherwise (b) the receipient of the stone's photographs show much orange and she says she sees it too.

I have a red spinel that I've managed to accurately photograph. I've also managed to capture rubies accurately. I believe that green is a far harder colour to photograph but even if this were a simple case of photography - it doesn't account for the receipients account that the stone is most definitely orange-red.

We buy based on photographs and descriptions. They should match. In this case, the general feeling of the consumers is that they don't. I don't think it's a case of deliberate deception however.

 

[AGBF]

I don't think it's a case of deliberate deception however.

LovingDiamonds-

You have said this before-that you do not believe that this is a case of deliberate deception-and I do not know why. Perhaps you would like to share your reasons for drawing this conclusion with us? I see none at all that are immediately self-evident.

That does not mean that I am accusing the vendor of deliberate deception; it simply means that I have no way of knowing what was in his head. I do not know if his intent was to deceive or not. Since I do not know him, I would not presume to know one way or the other, to accuse him or to assume that he would never try to oversell a stone. If you know the vendor better than I do, please tell us more about him.

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[LD]

I don't think it's a case of deliberate deception however.

LovingDiamonds-

You have said this before-that you do not believe that this is a case of deliberate deception-and I do not know why. Perhaps you would like to share your reasons for drawing this conclusion with us? I see none at all that are immediately self-evident.

That does not mean that I am accusing the vendor of deliberate deception; it simply means that I have no way of knowing what was in his head. I do not know if his intent was to deceive or not. Since I do not know him, I would not presume to know one way or the other, to accuse him or to assume that he would never try to oversell a stone. If you know the vendor better than I do, please tell us more about him.

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

I'm not in the habit of accusing anybody of deliberate deception unless I have proof. The evidence suggests otherwise. The description says "pure red" but the Vendor has then allowed a photograph with clear orange tones to accompany the description. IF it had been deception then the photograph would have been altered to show only red. Therefore it is my conclusion that the Vendor truly believes this stone to be "pure red". I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make. If the vendor truly believes this to be pure red then I must conclude that either he can't read colours OR the stone is actually a pure red, doesn't photograph well and the receiver of the gem can't read colours either and now sees orange that isn't there. It's not up to me to accuse this vendor of something when I have no proof but I think it only fair to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[AGBF]

I'm not in the habit of accusing anybody of deliberate deception unless I have proof.

That you are not in the habit of accusing anybody of deliberate deception is totally irrelevant to anything I posted, since I never accused anyone of deliberate deception, either. But, having established that this statement has nothing to do with anything I posted, let me say that I hear you. I am listening to you. You may, of course, post what you want and I understand that you would not accuse anyone of deliberate deception without proof. Neither would I, by the way.

The evidence suggests otherwise. The description says "pure red" but the Vendor has then allowed a photograph with clear orange tones to accompany the description. IF it had been deception then the photograph would have been altered to show only red. Therefore it is my conclusion that the Vendor truly believes this stone to be "pure red". I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make. If the vendor truly believes this to be pure red then I must conclude that either he can't read colours OR the stone is actually a pure red, doesn't photograph well and the receiver of the gem can't read colours either and now sees orange that isn't there. It's not up to me to accuse this vendor of something when I have no proof but I think it only fair to give the benefit of the doubt.

I understand your reasoning. It makes sense. It is based on common sense more than on an intimate knowledge of this particular vendor. I agree with you that it is quite a rational explanation of the vendor's behavior, however.

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[T L]

My problem with all of this is that the gemstone industry is not regulated like other industries. For example, no one can convince you to buy a Ford Fusion car for $100,000. Most people would balk at that. The reason we have beneficial consumer forums like Pricescope is to help people make educated consumer choices about colored gems, which is a great deal more difficult than colorless diamonds. The fact of the matter is that any vendor can charge anything they want for a gemstone. They can charge a million dollars for a CZ if they want, but that's not against the law.

There are many people on this board with very good advice as to what a reasonable price should be for a fine red spinel, and based on many these individual's observations and that of the OP who has seen the stone IRL, the OP is paying too much on a stone that to her doesn't appear to be significantly red enough, but it was advertised as such. If she's a newbie to colored gems and isn't bowled over with the color, think about what people who have been collecting for years would think of it.

Also, think of how many people would be overcharged and do get overcharged every day on synthetics, highly treated stones, and stones with inadequate color, or as not described. In this case, I would hope we have saved the OP from an expensive mistake.

It is not our intention to cast stones at vendors, or make them look in a bad light, but when there is proof that there is some thing not right, it is important to call on it, whether that vendor was deceptive or not. Could we all be color blind and have made the mistake it's too orange, and the vendor is correct in his assumption that it's pure red?? Yes, that is another possible outcome, but I highly doubt that is the reality based on the fact that we are trying to give neutral and unbiased input, the OP has seen it with her own eyes, and he is trying to sell something expensive. However, the only way to know for sure is to send it to the AGL for a color analysis report.

I think that would lay all of this conversation to rest, but in the mean time, the OP has moved on, and I hope she can find the stone of her dreams, and that she paid a fair price for it, whether it's too orange, too purple, too grey, or whatever, that is irrelevant. She must love it, and most importantly, she must pay a fair market value for it. I will say that the vendor did post very orange photos of the gem, and he called it highly red, so there is a good chance he just cannot see orange that well, but without an AGL, this point is mute, and I don't care how many fancy photographs someone takes of this gem.

 

[GliderPoss]

I did not post this for members of PS to tear Bespoke Gem's reputation to shreds.

His photos and description of the spinel clearly state that he personally sees pure red but makes an allowance for possible orange modifiers that others may see.

Clearly it is up to BrightIce whether she sees red and decides to keep it or not. Her phtos may not be any more accurate than Doug's.

Please have some consideration before making wild accusations regarding the integrity of the vendor without proof.

 

[AGBF]

I did not post this for members of PS to tear Bespoke Gem's reputation to shreds.

His photos and description of the spinel clearly state that he personally sees pure red but makes an allowance for possible orange modifiers that others may see.

Clearly it is up to BrightIce whether she sees red and decides to keep it or not. Her phtos may not be any more accurate than Doug's.

Please have some consideration before making wild accusations regarding the integrity of the vendor without proof.

Pricescope members, "tore" Bespoke Gems' "reputation to shreds"? They made "wild accusations regarding the integrity of the vendor without proof"? Which one(s) did that? Name the members, please. It might be actionable.

Deb/AGBF

 

[GliderPoss]

I am simply disappointed that the spirit in which I posted this thread has gone so downhill.

I am not an expert but I did read his description carefully which makes clearly an allowance for the possibility that others may see an orange modifier. Posts implying that he was deceptive and that no one can trust him now I feel are untrue and very sad.

Of course it is everyone's right here to say what they think but please consider personal slander - just because YOU personally see a hint of another colour does not mean that the whole world sees it too. Colour is purely subjective - that is the joy of gemstones - everyone loves different things!

Enough said on this topic.

 

[T L]

I am simply disappointed that the spirit in which I posted this thread has gone so downhill.

I am not an expert but I did read his description carefully which makes clearly an allowance for the possibility that others may see an orange modifier. Posts implying that he was deceptive and that no one can trust him now I feel are untrue and very sad.

Of course it is everyone's right here to say what they think but please consider personal slander - just because YOU personally see a hint of another colour does not mean that the whole world sees it too. Colour is purely subjective - that is the joy of gemstones - everyone loves different things!

Enough said on this topic.

#1) If you're going to be in this business and sell a very expensive stone, and say it's a certain color, then I think you should be able to see modifiers and secondary colors. This was a very expensive stone.

#2) I think this thread and all threads should maintain a level of neutrality towards vendors. Some people get emotionally attached to a certain vendor, and no vendor is perfect. If a vendor is terrific, than say so, if someone had a bad experience, then say so.

Hotpozzum, I realize you opened this thread on a stone that you thought people would like, and it did not turn out so. That has happened to me as well. No reason to feel insulted, or upset on Doug's behalf. This was a learning experience for everyone, and the gem is now down from his site. I hope if he resells it, he has it looked at by someone that can scientifically determine if the color is truly red.