The best gem labs

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Don’t know but it does make me avoid any significant purchases based on certain labs/certs. Or I double certify the stone with another local lab that I trust before I buy.

Exactly what It want to build as a resource.
A trust and expertise ranking.
It's easy to trust some. But those labs are not as accessible as the ones closer to gem sources.

 

[LilAlex]

There is also a lot of subjectivity -- in color, for sure, but also in origin. I have a stone with discordant origin reports from two excellent labs. It was sold to me with both reports and represented as the "lesser" origin (the more generous report was a drive-by at a major show in Geneva, maybe?) but a less scrupulous vendor could have easily "misplaced" the more definitive and less generous AGL one.

 

[Cognition]

There are some gems I only trust with the “big four” -GIA, AGL, GRS or SSEF. This includes corundum, emerald, paraiba, alexandrite, and diamond (GIA exclusively), and some very rare exotic gems.

I think the smaller legitimate labs are fine for everything else.

TL, I think you are missing gubelin in your list. Unless you have some bad experience with them?

Anyway, I think if you are overseas and in a hurry, EGL, AIGS, CD, lotus, and CGL are okay for treatment. However, I will not trust their color classification (this also apply for GRS). That being says you better know the seller very well. Just in case that the big 3 labs have different opinion on the treatment of the stone, you can return the stone.

 

[fredflintstone]

That is what I am wanting to know.
The marketing terms used by labs are nothing new. Even with diamonds and what we all consider to be the most reputable lab that is non profit and their mission is to protect consumers there are heaps of examples where who pays the FerryMan gets a little assistance.
Think semi opaque diamonds with no common language characteristic terminology: Clarity Grade based on Clouds. Clarity Grade based on Internal Graining.
Not to mention cut grades where the top grade is so broad that nearly 80% of all round diamonds achieve it.
And color graded via the pavilion and face up an H colored cushion looks yellower than a J or K well cut round.
And a 1ct J looks whiter than a 10ct G of any same cut.

But do I trust GIA to ensure me the diamond is natural and untreated. YES.
Thats what I want in a colored gem grading report.

The best color grading system in my opinion was (no longer made) the GIA Gemset - https://www.gemsociety.org/article/what-happened-to-the-gia-gemset-color-and-hue-wheel/

But even then, people determine and see color differently. Color is all subjective, especially when your speaking of Padparadscha, Cornflower blue, Royal blue, and Pigeon Blood red, which many experts claim there is no such thing. When you havea person(s) grading color it is like having many people looking at a painting and then asking them what they see, what is the meaning. You will get many different answers. That is how we are built.

Color grading right now from the labs that offer it is as good as it gets, which is to say it is all open to the interpretation of the individual(s) who are grading the color and how their brain sees color and in some cases, the color of money.

 

[prs]

Garry, I think the list would be most useful if it gave us the labs in each Country whose test results are reliable and trustworthy. Listing labs that may or may not be reliable is useless to us.

We can all make our own determination of color so the fact a lab might be problematic on color grades is of much less importance than the accuracy of their treatment and origin test results.

It would be great if the Country's listed were those that are home to the gem vendors we typically buy from or hope to buy from. Particularly Thailand, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, India, Pakistan, China, etc

May as well include the USA, UK, Australia, and the EU, on the list as newbies frequently ask what labs to use.

 

[prs]

Whoops! Better add New Zealand to the list of Countries. Have to make sure @Daisys and Diamonds doesn't feel left out.

 

[T L]

TL, I think you are missing gubelin in your list. Unless you have some bad experience with them?

Anyway, I think if you are overseas and in a hurry, EGL, AIGS, CD, lotus, and CGL are okay for treatment. However, I will not trust their color classification (this also apply for GRS). That being says you better know the seller very well. Just in case that the big 3 labs have different opinion on the treatment of the stone, you can return the stone.

Yes, correct, Gueblin in reputable and also has access to advanced equipment.

 

[demantoidz]

Garry, I think the list would be most useful if it gave us the labs in each Country whose test results are reliable and trustworthy. Listing labs that may or may not be reliable is useless to us.

I think Garry meant WE would make such a list and only use a blog's list for lab names. Meaning, for people to contribute to the question of which smaller labs are trustworthy - since in post #21 on this thread he suggested making a poll/review thread. But would enough have experience/knowledge on specific labs (outside of Googlable info) and be able to contribute to make it a meaningful resource?

 

[prs]

I know that for Hong Kong, the most trusted lab is "Hong Kong Jade and Stone Laboratory" all the major auction houses use them.



I believe for Singapore @icy_jade once recommended "Nan Yang Gemological Institute".



That's the full extent of my lab knowledge. It would be fantastic if we could get one in Thailand...maybe Lotus?

 

[demantoidz]

That's the full extent of my lab knowledge. It would be fantastic if we could get one in Thailand...maybe Lotus?

Thailand - Lotus, AIGS, GIT (GIT is a governmental organization)

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks folks - I need some time to think about how to do this.
Yes there are amueters and pros here - but anyone who has something to contribute can.
A poll - hhmmmm,, should we do a poll with one question - good or bad? Or a rating out of 5 stars or ten stars?
What would we be wanting to rank? For me it is ability to determine unheated untreated - but it could also include jadite (a messy minefield).
I imagine separate forum threads for separate nations - but it could also be fore gem species?
Not as easy as i first thought

 

[autumngems]

I am trying to decide on a lab to certify a possible sapphire for the basics C,C,C, origin and treatment in Bancock. Seller suggest either local lab or I pay for GIA, GRS, Lotus, AIGS. I don't know what to pick but definitly not local lab

 

[prs]

Not sure about Bancock but Lotus Gemology are in Bangkok.

Richard Hughes, the founder of Lotus, is generally regarded as the world's foremost expert on sapphires and rubies.

Lotus LINK

 

[LilAlex]

Color grading right now from the labs that offer it is as good as it gets, which is to say it is all open to the interpretation of the individual(s) who are grading the color and how their brain sees color and in some cases, the color of money.

One more troublesome element of color-grading -- and I know we all know it but perhaps not in this context -- is that it is necessarily done under standardized lighting and this will undersell some qualities or properties of highly desirable stones. Blue sapphires benefit from cool (i.e., "cloudy") lighting, imo, which I encounter a lot of in my world but equatorial regions may not. Other stones like Paraibas and fluorescent rubies may only "glow" under overhead sun. So even a perfect color-grading system (and I kinda like the GemeSquare one, which maybe is modeled on the old GIA one) will only tell one part of the story.

And about Lotus, above: just because one is the preeminent expert on something does not mean that one creates the most unbiased assessment. All sorts of funny things happen when experts try to monetize their expertise. Look at sad ol' Dr. Oz -- he might as well by the MyPillow guy at this point so it is hard to remember that he must have been a respected physician at one time. Many of these experts in various things sell their soul for monetary gain. I am not saying that Richard Hughes did this -- and I love his books and scholarship -- but I am pretty sure that he made some compromises in growing his business.

 

[icy_jade]

I am trying to decide on a lab to certify a possible sapphire for the basics C,C,C, origin and treatment in Bancock. Seller suggest either local lab or I pay for GIA, GRS, Lotus, AIGS. I don't know what to pick but definitly not local lab

My 2 cents….

Go for the auction house recognized/used labs. GIA and GRS.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

My 2 cents….

Go for the auction house recognized/used labs. GIA and GRS.

That kinda misses the point IJ, there can be advantages buying in local markets and if you are interested in a stone and ask for it to be sent overseas - the taxes on return, time delays and cost mean you may miss out on a great buy.

 

[icy_jade]

That kinda misses the point IJ, there can be advantages buying in local markets and if you are interested in a stone and ask for it to be sent overseas - the taxes on return, time delays and cost mean you may miss out on a great buy.

But both labs are in Bangkok, so why not

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

But both labs are in Bangkok, so why not

They are not in Jaipur or Sri Lanka and many other locations where gems are found cut and polished. And GIA are very slow.

 

[fredflintstone]

That kinda misses the point IJ, there can be advantages buying in local markets and if you are interested in a stone and ask for it to be sent overseas - the taxes on return, time delays and cost mean you may miss out on a great buy.

Very true. Whether it be Thailand, Sri Lanka, India, Peshawar, it is good to know good local labs to confirm your buys, especially if of substantial value.

Time is money and money is time. In the world of buying gemstones for resale time is everything. Also, can’t sale stones you bought you don’t have. If you can’t sale stones bought your money gets tied up and you may not have the money to buy that certain gemstone(s) or gemstone parcel that you know you can turnover quick when they pop up and disappear just as quick.

The world of buying gemstones for profit is here one hour and gone the next to another buyer.

 

[icy_jade]

They are not in Jaipur or Sri Lanka and many other locations where gems are found cut and polished. And GIA are very slow.

Am answering for her specific case. Presume bancock is Bangkok

 

[demantoidz]

Lotus has an article on how to choose a good testing lab.
Not realistic for some of these small labs to hold up to their checklist, but its a starting point.

Gem Testing Labs • Tips on Choosing a Colored Gem Testing Lab • Lotus Gemology

Guide to help customers choose a good gem testing lab, including what to look for and what to avoid in gem testing, origin determination and gem treatment identification for colored stones like ruby, sapphire, spinel, jade, emerald and others.

www.lotusgemology.com

 

[fredflintstone]

Lotus has an article on how to choose a good testing lab.
Not realistic for some of these small labs to hold up to their checklist, but its a starting point.

Gem Testing Labs • Tips on Choosing a Colored Gem Testing Lab • Lotus Gemology

Guide to help customers choose a good gem testing lab, including what to look for and what to avoid in gem testing, origin determination and gem treatment identification for colored stones like ruby, sapphire, spinel, jade, emerald and others.

www.lotusgemology.com

Nice advertisement.

I do respect Lotus greatly. But when they are speaking of gem origin, this is where the small source country labs are unexcelled, only because they live and breathe the gem market in their countries. But again, this is a tool more for sellers than buyers. Because name recognition is everything to the end buyer in this business. Hence the big labs are the place for the end buyer.

 

[demantoidz]

Nice advertisement.

I do respect Lotus greatly. But when they are speaking of gem origin, this is where the small source country labs are unexcelled, only because they live and breathe the gem market in their countries. But again, this is a tool more for sellers than buyers. Because name recognition is everything to the end buyer in this business. Hence the big labs are the place for the end buyer.

Still, some points of the article, such as reputation of the owners may be applicable to local labs. But this info can be hard/impossible to find.
But others, much less applicable. I would not look for a smaller lab's published works, for example, as that is probably just not part of what they do.
I actually think their low focus on equipment and mentioning the value of field experience, supports the perspective you have brought to this discussion
"... If gemologists spend all their time in the lab, they will understand only half the story."

 

[fredflintstone]

Amongst the trade, they do have a reputation, but for the end buyer, no. So yes, this is true. This article is geared towards the end buyer.

Some of these labs have published findings, but again, more to trade papers, blogs, what have you. But a lot is not common knowledge, that is for sure, and gets overshadowed by the buying power of the big labs. They just have more money to spend on self-promotion.

A good example is how many outside of the trade know that it was the Emteem Gemological Lab in Sri Lanka that published evidence of cobalt diffusion in blue Spinel.

But yes, the article does have some very good tips.

 

[Frost]

Small labs are fine, my biggest qualm is that they often lack access to the extremely expensive and exclusive machines that can test for things like chemicals, irradiation, or synthetics. Gem treatment is getting more and more sophisticated and the machines necessary to test for these things are highly expensive and specialized. For example, I had to send a sapphire to AGL because AIGS could not definitively tell me if it was chemically enhanced.

We talked about this years ago if you remember...

But I just wanted to add something again: any lab that takes itself seriously owns the machinery necessary to detect Be. LIBS/FTIR/UV-Vis-NIR have for some time now been staples of all major regional labs globally, they are simply a necessity to stay competitive in the eyes of the trade itself.

Most diffused stones are easy to spot for your average dealer who stares at enough gems daily, so much so that even before submission to the lab there would already be clear suspicion revealed by something as simple as an immersion microscope + di-iodomethane, the completely unnaturally uniform color that these stones have, the weird price/seller behavior that always comes along with a scam etc.

The exceedingly rare instances of diffusion that aren't dead obvious through some combination of the above require not only a temperature that almost melts sapphire, but also an absence of nearly all other diagnostic criteria that usually accompany these stones, as well as any changed inclusions. And I can't stress enough how rare that would be.
If nothing else, even the temperature itself can be a potential giveaway since on the above instruments "standard heated" doesn't have the same signature as "nearly melted".

Also... They are rare. Seriously rare. At least if you buy from reputable sources, and realistically speaking most people do.

Diffusion isn't what it was decades ago, is what I'm trying to say, and it's okay to be careful but it doesn't make sense to still talk as if this is 20 years ago when there may have been some reason for panic. I'm a gemologist as well and frankly speaking I don't think most of you realize that your preferred labs don't even have to look at their LIBS (never mind send your stone to a research center) for 99.99% of the gems you send them. These things are clear beforehand, it's as simple as that.

Most decent labs in the U.S., EU and Asia are more than capable of detecting it, and fringe cases like for example Madagascan sapphires from certain mines that naturally contain beryllium are one in a million. It was in such cases that there was some interest in sending stones to major universities for LA-ICP-MS (since most labs don't own one, other than GIA from what I remember) simply so that Be and other elements inside could be quantified and compared to known databases. But this is realistically simply not a necessity for standard gem market sapphire, never has been.

That's regarding chemicals. @fredflintstone already covered irradiation but I'd also like to add that the fade test that labs "invented" is very old news - a very strong lamp will usually be enough to clearly fade an irradiated sapphire's color right in front of your eyes, and I've yet to see an irradiated sapphire that could survive a day of heating in the sun or a few hours under a powerful lamp and keep its color. I don't think it exists.

And on the topic of synthetics, I mean... Everyone can tell by now. In cases where something is simply too clean, most labs won't even issue you a report at all despite the fact that it could also be natural. So synthetics shouldn't be anyone's concern in this day & age anymore.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

We talked about this years ago if you remember...

But I just wanted to add something again: any lab that takes itself seriously owns the machinery necessary to detect Be. LIBS/FTIR/UV-Vis-NIR have for some time now been staples of all major regional labs globally, they are simply a necessity to stay competitive in the eyes of the trade itself.

Most diffused stones are easy to spot for your average dealer who stares at enough gems daily, so much so that even before submission to the lab there would already be clear suspicion revealed by something as simple as an immersion microscope + di-iodomethane, the completely unnaturally uniform color that these stones have, the weird price/seller behavior that always comes along with a scam etc.

The exceedingly rare instances of diffusion that aren't dead obvious through some combination of the above require not only a temperature that almost melts sapphire, but also an absence of nearly all other diagnostic criteria that usually accompany these stones, as well as any changed inclusions. And I can't stress enough how rare that would be.
If nothing else, even the temperature itself can be a potential giveaway since on the above instruments "standard heated" doesn't have the same signature as "nearly melted".

Also... They are rare. Seriously rare. At least if you buy from reputable sources, and realistically speaking most people do.

Diffusion isn't what it was decades ago, is what I'm trying to say, and it's okay to be careful but it doesn't make sense to still talk as if this is 20 years ago when there may have been some reason for panic. I'm a gemologist as well and frankly speaking I don't think most of you realize that your preferred labs don't even have to look at their LIBS (never mind send your stone to a research center) for 99.99% of the gems you send them. These things are clear beforehand, it's as simple as that.

Most decent labs in the U.S., EU and Asia are more than capable of detecting it, and fringe cases like for example Madagascan sapphires from certain mines that naturally contain beryllium are one in a million. It was in such cases that there was some interest in sending stones to major universities for LA-ICP-MS (since most labs don't own one, other than GIA from what I remember) simply so that Be and other elements inside could be quantified and compared to known databases. But this is realistically simply not a necessity for standard gem market sapphire, never has been.

That's regarding chemicals. @fredflintstone already covered irradiation but I'd also like to add that the fade test that labs "invented" is very old news - a very strong lamp will usually be enough to clearly fade an irradiated sapphire's color right in front of your eyes, and I've yet to see an irradiated sapphire that could survive a day of heating in the sun or a few hours under a powerful lamp and keep its color. I don't think it exists.

And on the topic of synthetics, I mean... Everyone can tell by now. In cases where something is simply too clean, most labs won't even issue you a report at all despite the fact that it could also be natural. So synthetics shouldn't be anyone's concern in this day & age anymore.

Thanks Frost, that was a great coverage.
Do you think there should be a rating on labs for their equipment levels?
or a pass or fail?
or nothing needed because it's a given?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Nice advertisement.

I do respect Lotus greatly. But when they are speaking of gem origin, this is where the small source country labs are unexcelled, only because they live and breathe the gem market in their countries. But again, this is a tool more for sellers than buyers. Because name recognition is everything to the end buyer in this business. Hence the big labs are the place for the end buyer.

How about Sri Lankan labs giving SL origin to sapphires from Madagascar?
I believe Sri Lankan buyers bring a lot SL looking of rough into SL because there is a premium?

 

[T L]

We talked about this years ago if you remember...

But I just wanted to add something again: any lab that takes itself seriously owns the machinery necessary to detect Be. LIBS/FTIR/UV-Vis-NIR have for some time now been staples of all major regional labs globally, they are simply a necessity to stay competitive in the eyes of the trade itself.

Most diffused stones are easy to spot for your average dealer who stares at enough gems daily, so much so that even before submission to the lab there would already be clear suspicion revealed by something as simple as an immersion microscope + di-iodomethane, the completely unnaturally uniform color that these stones have, the weird price/seller behavior that always comes along with a scam etc.

The exceedingly rare instances of diffusion that aren't dead obvious through some combination of the above require not only a temperature that almost melts sapphire, but also an absence of nearly all other diagnostic criteria that usually accompany these stones, as well as any changed inclusions. And I can't stress enough how rare that would be.
If nothing else, even the temperature itself can be a potential giveaway since on the above instruments "standard heated" doesn't have the same signature as "nearly melted".

Also... They are rare. Seriously rare. At least if you buy from reputable sources, and realistically speaking most people do.

Diffusion isn't what it was decades ago, is what I'm trying to say, and it's okay to be careful but it doesn't make sense to still talk as if this is 20 years ago when there may have been some reason for panic. I'm a gemologist as well and frankly speaking I don't think most of you realize that your preferred labs don't even have to look at their LIBS (never mind send your stone to a research center) for 99.99% of the gems you send them. These things are clear beforehand, it's as simple as that.

Most decent labs in the U.S., EU and Asia are more than capable of detecting it, and fringe cases like for example Madagascan sapphires from certain mines that naturally contain beryllium are one in a million. It was in such cases that there was some interest in sending stones to major universities for LA-ICP-MS (since most labs don't own one, other than GIA from what I remember) simply so that Be and other elements inside could be quantified and compared to known databases. But this is realistically simply not a necessity for standard gem market sapphire, never has been.

That's regarding chemicals. @fredflintstone already covered irradiation but I'd also like to add that the fade test that labs "invented" is very old news - a very strong lamp will usually be enough to clearly fade an irradiated sapphire's color right in front of your eyes, and I've yet to see an irradiated sapphire that could survive a day of heating in the sun or a few hours under a powerful lamp and keep its color. I don't think it exists.

And on the topic of synthetics, I mean... Everyone can tell by now. In cases where something is simply too clean, most labs won't even issue you a report at all despite the fact that it could also be natural. So synthetics shouldn't be anyone's concern in this day & age anymore.

Thank you for your modern assessment of sapphire treatment. Based on what you say, then if I sent my sapphire, that could not be diagnostically detected for chemical enhancement, to the same lab today (AGL/Chris Smith), they wouldn’t have to send it to the LA-ICP-MS. Is that correct?

 

[fredflintstone]

How about Sri Lankan labs giving SL origin to sapphires from Madagascar?
I believe Sri Lankan buyers bring a lot SL looking of rough into SL because there is a premium?

Blame the dealers.

The Emteem Gemologcal Lab" does not designate that. But slip throughs happen.

I could ask who is the Lab(s) that give Madagascar Sapphires, Madagascar origin instead of Sri Lankan?

Why?

Because Sapphires from both countries are/or almost gemologially identical. As a matter of fact it has been generally proposed that Sri Lanka and Madgascar were one the same land mass in the super continent,
Gondwana.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Blame the dealers.

The Emteem Gemologcal Lab" does not designate that. But slip throughs happen.

I could ask who is the Lab(s) that give Madagascar Sapphires, Madagascar origin instead of Sri Lankan?

Why?

Because Sapphires from both countries are/or almost gemologially identical. As a matter of fact it has been generally proposed that Sri Lanka and Madgascar were one the same land mass in the super continent,
Gondwana.

It was suggested to me by a gemmologist - but cant remember who it was. Apparently a lot of rough stones end up Sri Lanka - is that true Fred?
If so, a lot of stones are going to be sold as Sri Lankan that are actually Madagascar.
The fact they are the same geological source does not satisfy a buyer who wants Sri Lankan and knows they cost a bit more.