The deal with EGL USA!? A question and a statement...

[sodenc]

Similar to most guys, I was clueless about how to purchase a diamond prior to looking for an engagement ring. Also like most guys my primary objective was to obtain the largest, prettiest RB diamond within my budget. To that end, I spent the past 2.5 months extensively reading the forums, learning about the 4Cs (and beyond) as well as Idealscope, HCA , ASET images and Sarin numbers. Initially, I considered only GIA or AGS certified diamonds, as pretty much decided that I was going to purchase a diamond sight-unseen from an online vendor. As part of my educational process, I made it a point to visit as many B&M jewelers as possible to get a first had view of what the 4Cs truly mean. Unexpectedly, I began to notice that their are some exceptionally beautiful EGL USA certified stones at considerably reduced prices when compared to their GIA or AGS counterparts.

In wanting to learn more about why EGL USA tends to carry a poor reputation, and whether or not these diamonds are even worth purchasing, I scoured the Pricescope forums over the past few years, looking for expert opinions as well as consumer experiences with regard to EGL USA certified diamonds. Below I have compiled a summary of expert opinions from this forum with regard to EGL USA certified diamonds and some of their recommendations on how to proceed if considering an EGL stone. I have also included my own personal experience along with the exceptional savings I was able to obtain by purchasing an EGL USA certified round 1.81 carat excellent cut G VS2 stone with faint blue fluorescence for $13,864 for a savings of close to $6000(all specs and info listed below):
Quote: David S. Atlas
1)Generalizations which imply or outright say that a particular lab is always soft compared to the GIA orAGSL are not based on fact, but more on feeling or rumor. The subjectiveness of the grades combined with the business motivation secondary labs have not to grade more harshly than the GIA or the AGSL forces legitimate secondary labs to use their best efforts at not being tougher than necessary. This leads to slightly to moderately softer grading overall, but on any individual diamond, one should not guess about how the accuracy of the grading is.
The study we did on Pricescope indicated that some of the best bargains had EGL reports. Dealers tend to discount in a broad way with EGL reports, yet on occasion, these reports are right on the money for grading with GIA specs. Those diamonds then tend to be the best deals.

EGL-Israel has earned the poor reputation it now has, but it is not connected with EGL-USA.

David S. Atlas

GG(GIA), ASG, Sr. Mbr. NAJA

www.datlas.com
www.datlasestates.com
www.dglaservices.com
David S. Atlas:

Quote: David S. Atlas
2)I have had a diamond at GIA for a month now getting some ID work done. One thing which influences dealers to submit diamonds to labs other than GIA is the speed at which the work gets back to them. It costs a significant amount of money to be delayed in turning over a relatively low margin product. The number of "turns" per year plays a major role in financial success at the dealer level.
Another thing touched upon is that different diamonds are going to different markets. Many or most markets don''t care so much about a cut grade as we do on Pricescope. Our part of the diamond trade is minute compared to the commercial portion which looks at color/clarity/shape/weight and the overall important bottom line cost. EGL reports come faster and cost less. Those are real benefits for a majority of diamond dealers in the overall real world. The "cert" is not the major thing for dealers. The "cert" plays more to the public demand. Many retailers will say every lab and every cert is "the same". We know better, but again, we are very much in the minority.

David S. Atlas

GG(GIA), ASG, Sr. Mbr. NAJA

www.datlas.com
www.datlasestates.com
www.dglaservices.com
Quote: David S. Atlas
3)"It is OK to buy an EGL graded diamond and you might find a good deal as long as you know what you are doing and what you are getting. "

It is OK to buy any diamond you like, but you are very unlikley to find a good deal if you don''t know what you are doing."

Nearly all EGL graded diamonds have a somewhat larger discount generally applied to them versus GIA or AGS graded diamonds. Every so often, an EGL diamond is graded just like it might have been graded by GIA and that particular diamond may be a very good deal. Knowing enough to catch one of those elusive bargains is not the easiest thing for a dealer to do, let alone a beginner. You might just happen to have it occur by accident if you are just plain lucky. We''ve seen it happen more often than people winning the million dollar lottery, so don''t give up hope.

David S. Atlas

GG(GIA), ASG, Sr. Mbr. NAJA

www.datlas.com
www.datlasestates.com
www.dglaservices.com
Quote: John Pollard
4)For the well-educated shopper in a live market, buy away. Train your eye and "buy the diamond, not the paper."

It''s never a bad idea to verify you''re getting what you think you are. I''m sure appraisers are pleasantly surprised when a consumer comes in with a ''soft'' report and states, up front, he''s aware it might not be up to the strictest trade standards.

Some companies - us included - don''t extend future trade-up options to non AGS/GIA graded stones. This has nothing to do with the diamonds themselves; it has to do with the need for strictness and consistency in our sight-unseen offerings.
John

__________________________

John Pollard

Whiteflash Director of Education 2004-2007

Using the above information and after looking at about 30 different EGL USA certified diamonds in the 1.5 – 1.8 carat range with excellent cut, G-H color and VS clarity I ended up purchasing the following stone:

EGL LA Certified Diamond
1.81 carat round brilliant
7.82 - 7.85 x 4.81 mm
cut: EGL ideal plus (non-hearts and arrows; arrows were present but a true hearts pattern was not; nevertheless an excellent cut)
Clarity: VS1
Color: G
Crown: 36.0
Pavilion: 41.1
Table percent: 57%
Girdle: 0.8% - 1.7%
Depth: 61.30%
pavilion height: 15.80%
crown height: 43.20%
polish: very good
symmetry: very good
cutlet: very small
Fluorescence: faint blue
Price: $13,864

The diamond looked amazing in all different types of lighting! And despite it being what some would consider a “Steep Deep cut”, the personally viewed Idealscope images confirmed little to no light leakage. Also, when compared side by side with multiple AGS 000 stones, there really was no visual difference.
In that I am new to the world of diamonds, of course I wanted to have this information verified. So, I had the diamond independently appraised by an extremely well respected and highly recommend former GIA graduate gemologist with the following qualifications:

Gemological Institute of America (GIA) Diamond Course – 1979
GIA Colored Stone Course – 1982
American Gem Society (AGS) Registered Jeweler 1983
GIA Gem Identification – 1985
Awarded GIA Graduate Gemologist Certificate in 1987
American Gem Society Registered Jeweler 1980
Awarded AGS Certified Gemologist Title in 1988
Former Member of International Society of Appraisers (2000 – 2006)
Former Member of American Society of Appraisers (2000 – 2006)

He subsequently did verify that the stone was in fact 1.81 ct G colored stone with excellent cut and faint blue fluorescence. All other specifications on the certification were also verified as being accurate. However, he did note that because of a very small nick in the girdle the stone was closer to a VS2 as opposed to a VS1. But, he did mention that some might still consider it a VS1. Estimated retail price per carat $13,475 with a total retail price of $24,389.75. Despite it being a VS2, a similar GIA graded stone at Blue Nile with the following characteristics cost $19,766

Blue Nile GIA graded stone:
Stock number:LD01435925
Price:$19,766
Bank wire price: $19,470
Price per carat: $10,860
Carat weight: 1.82
Cut: Ideal
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Depth %: 61.6%
Table %: 57%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements:7.85 x 7.82 x 4.83 mm
From the above information and from my own personal experience, for the truly diligent consumer who does not wish to trade-in their stone, EGL USA certified stones can represent and exceptional value when compared to GIA or AGS certified stones. While it may take you a little longer to find that exceptional EGL USA certified diamond as the experts mention, in the end, the overall saving can be considerable!

In Summary:
1) Learn thoroughly about the 4Cs and the other aspects of diamond specifications
2) Trust your own eyes and strongly consider investing in an Idealscope. View the diamond in multiple different light sources
3) Without a doubt, obtain an independent appraisal prior to purchasing or make sure the merchant has a solid return policy should you find that the EGL certification is not representative of the diamond
4) Be aware that some companies do not offer trade-ins on non-GIA/AGS graded stones

 

[denverappraiser]

What’s the question?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[oldminer]

You did a wonderful job of learning, reading, learning and shopping. Not everyone is able to be sor thorough, competent and lucky. Great work! You prove what we have said per the quotes and articles found on Pricescope in the archives. I sounded like an endorsement ad for EGL-USA. I think it is important to stress that context helps to balance out what was said. Many individuals have posted overly broad negative generalizations about labs which compete with GIA and that my statements were made to help bring another point of view to the discussion rather than to endorse labs without warning that reliability of all secondary labs is warranted to some extent. The same still holds true.

Now, if you give this diamond to GIA and receive the G-VS1 grade we''ll all really know what took place. It does sound like you are very pleased and that Pricescope worked its miracle for you no matter what. That''s very good news.

 

[sodenc]

“What was the question?”
I was going to include previous questions from other forum members along with their subsequent answers that I included in the summary, but decided not to as it seemed that most of the statements were very thorough and the questions could be inferred in the statements.

I definitely don’t want anyone to think that I am now biased to EGL USA because of my experience. Similar to expert comments, I don’t think that these diamonds are the best to purchase “sight unseen” and would still definitely advocate one purchase a GIA or AGS diamond if they want to be sure they are truly getting a quality product, especially if they are being purchased of the internet. Also, while the final diamond I purchased, performed exceedingly well the first EGL certified diamond that I purchased in person was a poor performer. However, based on the certification and price, I convinced myself it was a good deal (not the HCA score 0f 0.

1.75 carat round brilliant
7.84 - 7.80 x 4.70 mm
cut: EGL ideal plus (true hearts and arrows indicated on cert and I viewed it with an Idealscope)
Clarity: VS2
Color: H
Crown: 34.0
Pavilion: 40.7
Table percent: 58%
Girdle: 1.4% - 2.2%
Depth: 42.6%
pavillion height: 14.3%
crown height: 42.6%
polish: very good
symmetry: very good
cutlet: none
Fluorescence: none
HCA score 0.8
Price: $10,800

It was not until I had 2 GIA graduate gemologists give me their objective opinion did I truly realize that while the certification was correct with regard to the cut, the color and clarity were 2-3 grades off! This I suspected prior to purchasing the stone, but I bought the certification and not the diamond. Needless to say I was extremely unhappy/angry

and felt like I truly “got what I paid for” if not significantly less. Also, I did not take my own advice or the advice of the experts and investigate the return policy prior to buying (He was a family friend… another NO NO). However, after some work the vendor did agree to take the stone back once he saw first-hand the inaccuracy of the certification. It wasn’t until the second attempt after viewing at least 15-20 more EGL certified diamonds that I came across the winner that I ultimately purchased. So again, I will say be careful if purchasing an EGL stone because I almost got burned, and I lost a lot of sleep in the process. But, if you are willing to put in the work, time and effort, you can definitely come across some great deals.

 

[denverappraiser]

It’s a pretty easy observation to note that dozens or even hundreds stones with similar specs in terms of weight/clarity/color/shape are offered in the database here for wildly different prices. Often it’s on the order of a factor of 3 between the top and the bottom and certain labs are consistently represented at the more expensive end while other labs seem to dominate the cheaper ones. Even when you remove cut grading from the equation it''s still often a factor of 2. The obvious question is whether this is evidence of a bargain. The short answer, as you’ve observed, is no. The slightly longer answer is …. Hell no.

This is the tip of an iceberg that’s the biggest single pitfall for shoppers trying to locate a deal on ‘certified’ diamonds. It’s not the lab that makes a beautiful diamond beautiful but the choice of laboratory and what the lab has to say has a huge amount to do with how prices are set. If a dealer or their supplier can raise their prices by getting a better pedigree than this is what they do. It’s not hard, it’s not expensive, it doesn’t take very long and for folks who are working on single digit margins and who are diamond experts themselves, it’s unreasonable to expect them to do anything less. Unlike you, they DO have possession of the stone when they make this call. Sure, stones get missed, mistakes get made and sometimes sellers are distressed for time or money but, by and large, the ‘discount’ for stones graded by the less prestigious labs is justified by market realities. EVERY stone listed on the internet has a seller and most have a chain of sellers. Every one of these people have the opportunity to do this lab ‘upgrade’ (or the corresponding downgrade) prior to the stone ever being listed. The only sensible shopping procedure is to assume that the selection of the lab was done strategically rather than assuming that it was a mistake or that it was made by someone who didn’t know any better. It’s important to ask yourself WHY that particular lab was chosen for that particular stone. It was not done at random. Sometimes it’s about clarity or color, sometimes it’s about getting or avoiding a particular cut grade, it may be the fluorescence or symmetry. It may be something else entirely or it may be a combination of these things but it’s always something and it’s NOT because they wanted to sell it to you for a lower price or because they were foolish.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[elle_chris]

I was curious to see if D,E, IF,VVS1 stones in the 1ct range get sent to EGL so I just did a search. Eight pages and not 1 stone. There were a few HRD but the majority were GIA with one, maybe two AGS thrown in.

I thought this was interesting. Why not send an F, VS stone to EGL for an upgrade?

Or is it just easier with lower colors and clarities as there''s more wiggle room?

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/21/2010 12:09:29 PM
Author: sodenc
It was not until I had 2 GIA graduate gemologists give me their objective opinion did I truly realize that while the certification was correct with regard to the cut, the color and clarity were 2-3 grades off! This I suspected prior to purchasing the stone, but I bought the certification and not the diamond. Needless to say I was extremely unhappy/angry

and felt like I truly “got what I paid for” if not significantly less. Also, I did not take my own advice or the advice of the experts and investigate the return policy prior to buying (He was a family friend… another NO NO). However, after some work the vendor did agree to take the stone back once he saw first-hand the inaccuracy of the certification. It wasn’t until the second attempt after viewing at least 15-20 more EGL certified diamonds that I came across the winner that I ultimately purchased. So again, I will say be careful if purchasing an EGL stone because I almost got burned, and I lost a lot of sleep in the process. But, if you are willing to put in the work, time and effort, you can definitely come across some great deals.

This is the exact reason why I won''t even consider selling diamonds graded by the EGL - any of the EGL''s - because I (personally) grew tired of paying to ship diamonds in for evaluation and wasting my time ''hoping'' that the clarity and color grade ''might'' be accurate (in my opinion, based on my standards of grading). It''s not worth taking the time to look at 15 - 20 diamonds on the off chance that one of them might be graded accurately, when I can bring in 15 - 20 diamonds graded by the GIA and AGS and have a 90% batting average that the clarity and color grades will be accurate (by my personal assessment).

It is pretty difficult for a lab to screw up the proportions data of a diamond, since it is measured by machine (Sarin, OGI, Helium) but it actually can be done! Neglecting to clean the diamond prior to scanning and/or using the wrong lens configuration for the carat weight of the diamond will skew the results...

I''d venture to say that retail jewelers who specialize in selling inaccurately graded diamonds to the public based on "certificate" mis-conceptions would go broke if they were operating online and their customers had to bring in 15 - 20 diamonds to find "one" which is accurately graded due to the free shipping policy! This might be the reason why most reputable online dealers don''t sell anything but GIA and AGS graded diamonds...

But I hear what you''re saying Sodenc, it was worth your time to look at 15 - 20 EGL graded diamonds in a traditional retail environment to find a diamond that met your personal expectations and preferences for how a diamond should look, and in the end, you found it. However I don''t feel that the approach is conducive to the online model for buying and selling diamonds because people are unable to compare 15 - 20 diamonds side-by-side in hopes of finding the infamous "needle in the haystack" - God knows that I certainly don''t have the patience to do it that way and I do diamonds for a living (and I also know that everything in the diamond market is priced accordingly - the cutters don''t miss a thing and every diamond is sent to specific labs for a reason).

 

[sodenc]

I do in part agree with what you said. My experience with diamonds is minimal when compared to most people on this forum, especially yours. True, the only way for me to know what I truly have according to official GIA or AGS standards would be to send it to them. Presentely, I am happy with the information I have obtained from 3 independent GIA trained graduate gemologists who are now indepent apraisers. I do agree that, prices vary widely with diamonds of similar specs. The Bluenile diamond I picked as a comparrison was at the higher end of the spectrum, and I did not see this stone first-hand; however, the dimensions were extremely close. I only started this topic to summarize and answer some of my own personal questions as well as put it out there as a topic for discussion.

My main goal in all of this was to purchase a beauftiful diamond and obtain the best deal possible. After looking first-hand at other similar GIA and AGS stones, there really was no visual difference. Perhaps there are other aspects the apraisers missed that GIA or AGS would find, but for the price and the overall appearance, I couldn''t be happier.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 2/21/2010 12:52:56 PM
Author: elle_chris
I was curious to see if D,E, IF,VVS1 stones in the 1ct range get sent to EGL so I just did a search. Eight pages and not 1 stone. There were a few HRD but the majority were GIA with one, maybe two AGS thrown in.


I thought this was interesting. Why not send an F, VS stone to EGL for an upgrade?


Or is it just easier with lower colors and clarities as there''s more wiggle room?

Two big reasons:

People shopping at the high end tend to be fairly picky and tend to do their research.
People shopping here are doubly picky.

You would find a very different assortment if you were looking at I/SI2 or if you were looking in a different marketplace. A fair number of stores seem to specialize in stones with off-brand lab work.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/21/2010 1:08:52 PM
Author: sodenc
I do in part agree with what you said. My experience with diamonds is minimal when compared to most people on this forum, especially yours. True, the only way for me to know what I truly have according to official GIA or AGS standards would be to send it to them. Presentely, I am happy with the information I have obtained from 3 independent GIA trained graduate gemologists who are now indepent apraisers. I do agree that, prices vary widely with diamonds of similar specs. The Bluenile diamond I picked as a comparrison was at the higher end of the spectrum, and I did not see this stone first-hand; however, the dimensions were extremely close. I only started this topic to summarize and answer some of my own personal questions as well as put it out there as a topic for discussion.

My main goal in all of this was to purchase a beauftiful diamond and obtain the best deal possible. After looking first-hand at other similar GIA and AGS stones, there really was no visual difference. Perhaps there are other aspects the apraisers missed that GIA or AGS would find, but for the price and the overall appearance, I couldn''t be happier.

And actually, believe it or not, I''m not saying that EGL graded "gems" aren''t out there for people to find... I''m trying to emphasize that I think it is unlikely that people will be able to find them within the online platform because finding them (IMO) will require a great deal of dedication, patience and hands-on time - which can only be applied effectively in a traditional brick and mortar environment where a lot of comparable diamonds are available for comparison.

Unfortunately many online dealers operate by a business model which places more emphasis on price than on actual quality - they list diamonds for sale by mirroring the multiple listing services subscribed to by the trade and sell diamonds which they rarely, if ever, actually see - so they can''t ensure the client that *any* of the diamonds being offered are actually graded accurately. And in my experience, I have had more success bringing diamonds in for evaluation which have been graded by the AGS and GIA than I have with those graded by any of the EGL franchise laboratories... If there was anything that I could change about the online model for selling diamonds, it would be that more dealers would actually see the diamonds that they sell and help their clients buy diamonds based on what they (as trained professionals) see with their eyes... A few of us do it this way, but far more just list diamonds and drop ship based on the paper grade and numerical data presented on the lab reports

 

[sodenc]

Great comments! And thank you for all of the replys. Extremely informative.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/21/2010 1:16:35 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 2/21/2010 12:52:56 PM

Author: elle_chris

I was curious to see if D,E, IF,VVS1 stones in the 1ct range get sent to EGL so I just did a search. Eight pages and not 1 stone. There were a few HRD but the majority were GIA with one, maybe two AGS thrown in.

I thought this was interesting. Why not send an F, VS stone to EGL for an upgrade?

Or is it just easier with lower colors and clarities as there''s more wiggle room?

Two big reasons:

People shopping at the high end tend to be fairly picky and tend to do their research.

People shopping here are doubly picky.

You would find a very different assortment if you were looking at I/SI2 or if you were looking in a different marketplace. A fair number of stores seem to specialize in stones with off-brand lab work.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Ditto this! Like I said earlier in the thread "the cutters don''t miss a thing and don''t do anything without a reason" - the cutters are ''members'' of all the major gemological laboratories and they send diamonds to each laboratory based upon the quality and characteristics of the diamond AND the intended market for that particular diamond... People buying ''high end'' diamonds tend to insist on GIA or AGS grading because they are "in the know" and want paper which is recognized as being reliable by the industry - note that industry perception is completely different than consumer perception... consumers want a "certificate" because (most of them) lack confidence about their intended purchase - the industry buys a "lab report" (and fraudulently promotes "certificates") because it helps them market the diamond to its intended buyer... Traditionally, the diamond industry expects D, FL, buyers "in the know" to buy GIA or AGS graded diamonds.

 

[denverappraiser]

Todd,

I think you’re overlooking an important group. The people who are listing the stones into the big databases in the first place are the ones who usually choose the lab. The drop shipping dealers and even most of the B&M stores tend to make these folks anonymous but they’re still there, they’re experts in their fields, they have seen the stone and they made this decision with the stone in hand. THEY are the ones who benefit or suffer the most from a misgrading by the lab since the dropshippers are just adding a percentage onto their costs, whatever those turn out to be.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[garek007]

So Denver, are you saying that if it''s EGL graded, someone intentionally sent it to EGL hoping to get a grade bump? ARe you saying that the cutter knew it was probably a low quality diamond from the start?

I have been having this dilemma myself. Trying to decide between two stones, one of which is 1260 less than the other and EGL graded.


PRINCESS CUT 1.05ct for $5058
GIA cert
VVS1
G
table 69%
depth 71.5%
crown height: 8.5%
girdle: medium
polish: very good
symmetry: very good
5.65x5.65x4.04mm

PRINCESS CUT 1.04ct for $3798
EGL USA cert
VS1
G
table 69%
depth 71.2%
crown height 12%
girdle: medium to sl thick polished
polish:excellent
symmetry:very good
5.59x5.57x3.98mm

I''ve been told by the people selling the diamond that the EGL is more likely an H, (some think even an I). This is making it very difficult to buy this stone online, because ''you just don''t know for sure''.

Is it usually only color that is off with EGL? If it were color alone I could be okay with that, but I''m worried the other aspects of the report may be off, IE girdle thickness, polish, symmetry grades, etc.

If it''s just color I would maybe take the plunge and buy it, but I am worried that the other aspects may be off too, which will REALLY make it a poor buy.

I think you are right. If you know your stuff and can see the diamond in person then it might be worth the while to buy an EGL stone. But online, I''m just not sure it''s a good idea...

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 2/21/2010 1:45:56 PM
Author: garek007
So Denver, are you saying that if it''s EGL graded, someone intentionally sent it to EGL hoping to get a grade bump? Are you saying that the cutter knew it was probably a low quality diamond from the start?

Yes, that’s what I’m saying although there are more issues at play than just a bump or two in clarity/color grade. For example, cut grading is all the rage right now and a GIA assigned cut grade of ‘good’ or even worse ‘fair’ or ''poor'' is commercially a death sentence. That same stone sent to a different lab may get no cut grade at all or some undefined squishy thing like ‘premium’. A bump in clarity/color is just a bonus in this case. The opposite also holds. The #1 reason to send a stone to AGSL is because they want the stone to be graded on their cut grading scale and the reason they want that is because they think it’ll score well. It’s no coincidence that you never see an AGS-7 in the marketplace. A dealer would be foolish to send them such a stone and yes, I’m saying that the cutter knows what they have before they send it in to the lab. In fact, they had a pretty good idea what they were aiming for before they started to cut the stone or bought that particular piece of rough. It’s a big stinking deal at the cutter level and there’s a lot of money at stake. Doing it well is one of the primary talents for these folks. It affects how they cut, who they sell to, how they market their goods, even what they buy. It’s the difference between making money and losing their shirts.

The clarity/color bump cuts both ways as well. A stone with GIA paperwork will sell for more money and faster than a similarly graded one from a lesser regarded lab if there’s no other hidden issues driving the decision. Often the difference is quite a bit. This means that a dealer can gain by rebranding correctly graded stones from the second shelf folks. For the same reason that you see a gain in buying correctly graded stones without good pedigree, it’s a loss to the dealer who’s selling it and/or to the cutter who sold it to him. It’s not like diamonds are perishable and if they can increase their prices by, say, 20% and their margin by double or triple while selling through faster, would you expect them to do anything differently?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/21/2010 1:32:55 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Todd,

I think you’re overlooking an important group. The people who are listing the stones into the big databases in the first place are the ones who usually choose the lab. The drop shipping dealers and even most of the B&M stores tend to make these folks anonymous but they’re still there, they’re experts in their fields, they have seen the stone and they made this decision with the stone in hand. THEY are the ones who benefit or suffer the most from a misgrading by the lab since the drop shippers are just adding a percentage onto their costs, whatever those turn out to be.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

No, I''m not missing them at all, but I might not be stating it effectively when I say that the cutters do everything for a reason... The cutters know which labs grade more strictly and those which are apt to grade by lower standards and they send every diamond to a specific laboratory ''with purpose'' and ''understanding'' based upon the intended demographic or target market for their production... I believe Neil that you and I are saying the same thing, but differently

 

[kenny]

This all makes me so angry.

I think the current state of grade-shopping, lab-shopping is disgusting.

We need a massive government investigation, industry regulation and enforcement of ONE set of standards.

The system is broken.
Consumers are being deceived and screwed.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/21/2010 2:43:29 PM
Author: kenny
This all makes me so angry.

I think the current state of grade-shopping, lab-shopping is disgusting.

We need a massive government investigation, industry regulation and enforcement of ONE set of standards.

The system is broken.

Consumers are being deceived and screwed.

You won''t get any argument from me, but I think it has been a difficult issue to regulate because every diamond is truly unique in terms of the clarity characteristics within it and the fact that diamond grading is subjective. As vendors, we are essentially consumers and as such we have a choice in terms of which diamond cutters we choose to do business with and to condone the use of which labs they use for grading by only purchasing diamonds graded by what we deem to be reliable and consistent.

On the same note, other vendors will choose to "vote with their dollars" by supporting cutters who send their production to ''other'' laboratories because doing so enables them to appeal to buyers who are more focused on price and perceived quality... It''s a vicious cycle... Kind of like "more is less" or is it "less is more"?

I know that I''d have a lot more diamonds to choose from if I learned to close my eyes while grading

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/21/2010 12:43:41 PM
Author: denverappraiser

The only sensible shopping procedure is to assume that the selection of the lab was done strategically rather than assuming that it was a mistake or that it was made by someone who didn’t know any better. It’s important to ask yourself WHY that particular lab was chosen for that particular stone. It was not done at random. Sometimes it’s about clarity or color, sometimes it’s about getting or avoiding a particular cut grade, it may be the fluorescence or symmetry. It may be something else entirely or it may be a combination of these things but it’s always something and it’s NOT because they wanted to sell it to you for a lower price or because they were foolish.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

agree with Neil 101%

there are excellent stones and there are cheap stones,but there are NO excellent CHEAP stones !!!

 

[kenny]

What I think is sad is so many people thinking they got their "F VS1" for a great price.

So many customers say, "I can''t afford a GIA F VS1."

Both false impressions.

 

[kenny]

What I think is sad is so many people thinking they got their "F VS1" for a great price.
(They are unaware that their lab grades softly. After all it says certified F VS1, so it must be F VS1.)

So many customers think GIA stones are expensive.

Both false impressions.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 2/21/2010 4:05:06 PM
Author: kenny
What I think is sad is so many people thinking they got their ''F VS1'' for a great price.
(They are unaware that their lab grades softly. After all it says certified F VS1, so it must be F VS1.)

So many customers think GIA stones are expensive.

Both false impressions.

And the consumer does not always understand the different lab terminology.
Why does EGL use terms like "Premium Cut" or "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut?" We know the answer to that question.
Does the average consumer know the difference between a GIA Very Good Cut or an EGL Premium Cut?
Unfortunately the average diamond shopper has probably never even heard of Pricescope
so they will never quite understand the differences. They will continue to buy the paper because it
says that the diamond is "very good" or "premium."
On a very basic human level...most consumers are satisfied that their diamond is at least "good" "very good" or "premium."
and have no reason to dig further to find out what defines these grades.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I routinely consider purchasing stones in the lower color grades with EGL reports- I see quite a few. Wholesale buyers need to be able to distinguish the color and clarity and other characteristics regardless of any lab report.
Many times we submit these stones to GIA - sometimes the differences are startling.
A stone graded H by non GIA labs got K from GIA

I''d be willing to bet money that a large percentage of higher color clarity stones in the larger sizes with EGL reports have been to GIA, with the cutter hoping for a certain grade. If the stone does not come back the expected grade the cutters throw the GIA away, and submit to other labs known to be softer.
I agree it''s a disservice to consumers when stones are represented with grades that sellers know are overstated.
I believe it''s common, and a real shame- yet I don''t think it''s prosecutable.

 

[Dancing Fire]

sedenc...you wanna find out if you really got a good deal on this stone?

here''s what you do...

send the stone to BGD and have Brian recut the stone into ideal H&A,then ask Brian to submit the stone to AGS for grading,if the stone comes back G VS2 0 cut then you made a great deal ,b/c the vendor gave away an extra $5K worth of profit.

 

[sodenc]

Date: 2/21/2010 7:59:17 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
sedenc...you wanna find out if you really got a good deal on this stone?

here''s what you do...

send the stone to BGD and have Brian recut the stone into ideal H&A,then ask Brian to submit the stone to AGS for grading,if the stone comes back G VS2 0 cut then you made a great deal ,b/c the vendor gave away an extra $5K worth of profit.

Honestly Dancing Fire,

For the educational value (for myself) and to find out "the real deal", I would do just that. Convincing my fiance to let me do that, as it is now on her finger... is another story

But I appreciate all of the info.

and it is something to consider. I would be interested to know what the total loss of carat weight would be. The GIA graduate gemolgist who provided the appraisal said I would lose about .05 - .06 total carat weight to do so....that is recut the stone back to VS1 (completely removing the small nick while likely improving the overall cut). I suppose if I was ever interested in upgrading by trying to obtain an AGS certificate, then it might be a viable option.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/21/2010 8:13:15 PM
Author: sodenc

Date: 2/21/2010 7:59:17 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
sedenc...you wanna find out if you really got a good deal on this stone?

here''s what you do...

send the stone to BGD and have Brian recut the stone into ideal H&A,then ask Brian to submit the stone to AGS for grading,if the stone comes back G VS2 0 cut then you made a great deal ,b/c the vendor gave away an extra $5K worth of profit.

Honestly Dancing Fire,

For the educational value (for myself) and to find out ''the real deal'', I would do just that. Convincing my fiance to let me do that, as it is now on her finger... is another story

But I appreciate all of the info.

and it is something to consider. I would be interested to know what the total loss of carat weight would be. The GIA graduate gemolgist who provided the appraisal said I would lose about .05 - .06 total carat weight to do so....that is recut the stone back to VS1 (completely removing the small nick while likely improving the overall cut). I suppose if I was ever interested in upgrading by trying to obtain an AGS certificate, then it might be a viable option.

if the stone does come back G VS1 then you made a "killing"

cuz you paid $14k for a $21k stone.