The dreaded SI2

[gm89uk]

Have been browsing these forums for a little while and learnt (tried to) a huge amount from all the expertise here.

They say an eye clean SI2 that doesn't impact on beauty is a rare find, but I see it is almost never recommended. I know in the larger carat sizes it becomes increasingly difficult to do so as the clarity is proportional to diamond size. However even on the 1.2 and below sizes, I do not see any PSers recommending SI2s with some seemingly good ones out there available at bargain prices.

Just browsing the JA website for simplicity with the videos, it is a pain to find a nice one, but every now and again they do crop up.

Here are some examples I've come across with good proportions >1.2 (all confirmed to be eyeclean by JA):

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.22-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-380736
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.30-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-528685
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.33-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-485166

This one they said may impact the diamonds light return of a seemingly eyeclean SI2:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.22-carat-f-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-476943

Here are some in the commonly sought 0.9 carat range
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.92-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-493499
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.90-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-492288 (few black specs in the periphery)

Is an SI2 almost always a compromise on beauty, even when they look promising?
Should SI2s be included in more searches to save $$$?

PS I'm just helping a friend purchase and do not want to misinform. I will direct them here as well of course

 

[tyty333]

IMO, if you really, really, really have to compromise to get the size you want an eye-clean SI2 is ok. However, I usually
only recommend that if the intended is OK with it else I try to stick with eye-clean SI1 or up.

If you cant see anything (it's truly eye-clean) and the inclusions are not affecting the light return then I dont see how
it can be qualified as a compromise on beauty. However, it may not be "mind" clean to the wearer and that may keep
them from enjoying the stone/ring as much as they should.

I have noticed that we had a couple of people buy eye-clean SI2 stones but after having them a while they traded up
for a higher clarity. Not sure if was only due to the clarity though...they may have wanted a larger stone also.

Other people feel that you should go smaller and cleaner (VS2 or up) because it is an engagement ring and something
you intend to have for a very long time. I understand both points of view. Just depends on your priorities and whether
your mind can let go of the SI2 grading.

 

[solgen]

Like tyty333 said if it doesn't impact performance then it shouldn't really matter. Since everyone is constricted by a budget and limited diamond pool you often have to make some sort of concession. Some settle for eye clean SI1 or SI2. Others drop down in color to H, I ,J or lower. Some change the shape. Some opt for near ideal or good enough cuts and other people reduce carat size. It's all about finding the balance that suits your preferences.

 

[D_]

Agreed.
Some of the diamonds you have listed are not so bad.
To put things into perspective try this, reduce the magnification to 1x, it becomes much much less dreadful.
Can you see the inclusions clearly?

 

[AdaBeta27]

Even if it's not 100% eyeclean under all lighting conditions and under all conditions, just how important is that? Personally, I would rather have higher color and fantastic cut & performance and also size. 100% eyeclean is just not that important. If you choose your inclusions carefully, which one can do if one isn't up against a deadline, you can probably find something close enough to eyeclean. I just don;t need 100% eyeclean. Who, except the wearer, is really going to get the chance to closely scrutinize the diamond. I decided I could be very adult about it and compromise on clarity, and I got myself a very stunning H&A superideal diamond for a very reasonable price.

 

[gm89uk]

thanks for the replies.

tyty333, why do you have so much reservation regarding SI2s? I feel you would be most reluctant to get one unless you had to for the price. I think for me, mind clean is eye clean + no effect on beauty.

Out of interest D_ which of those would you not recommend? They all seem that they would be eye clean to me from 7 inches.

I reason I made this thread is because just from observation people are much more likely to say drop from a F to an H or even an I rather than to suggest dropping clarity to an SI2. Should searching for SI2s be part of the standard search for <1.5 carats to not miss a good bargain? Are SI2s generally not cut with the same care as better clarity grades?

AdaBeta27 I would love to see your diamond

 

[Candygrl]

To be honest I would go lower in color and up in clarity. H is "usually" a safe bet. I have an I color and I love it, but some people are bothered by an I. See if you can find an H SI1 or VS2 eye clean. My original stone was a .90 F SI2 and the inclusion drove me nuts!

 

[Rockdiamond]

With an SI2, it really depends on how you're buying it.
The internet, in general, is bad for buying SI2 diamonds.
Many of them do have visible imperfections.
But the ones that don't can look just like an Internally Flawless Diamond.
In larger size, the actual dollars saved on an eye clean SI2 start to really add up. Making it an even better find when you can get one.
If it's a colorless stone that I'm buying as a gift, I place a lot of priority on size- for the same price you can get an eye clean G SI2 3 ct versus and eye clean G VS2 2.20ct........hmmmmm

 

[D_]

The 1.22 F SI2.
Personally I'll feel safer w/ VS2 or SI1.
More about mind clean though.
These magnified images are helpful, but the downside is I know before purchasing that they are there and once I know they are there, well...
When I visited local stores though, it was a bit different.
I looked at some diamonds, found them pretty, look at the different ones for a few minutes and... well the bigger one caught my attention.
When the sales associate pointed out that it was SI2, I went
Stared at that particular diamond for a few more minutes and finally found 1 rather large crystal/cloud towards the outer edge, which is easily prong-able.
Looked through loupe and was quite surprised at how much I can't see with naked eyes (and my friends told me my eyes are pretty keen).

To each his/her own.
If colour & size are more important to you then I agree, it's good to include SI2s in your search.
The eye clean ones will be more difficult to find than in SI1s, but they are there.

 

[acaw2015]

I think it is also very important to be aware of what eye clean really means. It doesn't mean that the diamond is flawless from every distance or every angle, if you tilt the stone. I recently upgraded to a vs1 from a SI1 because even though the SI1 was eye clean from an arms length, I could see two inclusions in certain lights when looking a little closer. This bothered me a lot and I pretty much always looked for the inclusions when looking at the diamond... I think this would have been even worse with a si2 even if it were "eye clean".
In my opinion, if you need to make a compromise to get a bigger carat, I would ask the person who is getting the diamond before buying it OR buy an H vs2 or a closely inspected si1. Everyone has their own preference, some may not be bothered by inclusions or color or even both! It is truly personal.

 

[pyramid]

To me mindclean is about durability not visibility. Otherwise an SI2 that I knew only I would REALISTICALLY see would be good. I also though detrimental to me have this rarity want. Color tone can sometimes bother me. If I did not read about Gems so much and like others had a ring and left forums I just wonder if in a couple of years all I would care about is if it looked lovely at a glance - like looking at others rings after they had them for a while too. I read on here or did in past how in America women judge a persons new engagement ring looking for inclusions, in the UK rings are usually smaller but I have never seen or heard anyone do that. It is just let's see the ring and the person holds out their hand for 3 seconds. I am trying to think this way from now on more often.

 

[pyramid]

Mind clean is a mental thing but I wonder if it is normal or a mental deficiency we have sometimes, like OCD, does anyone who is trained in psychiatry type subjects know, would be interesting to really know if it is or not because I am sure the vast majority don't think this way but are only looking for eye clean.

 

[tyty333]

thanks for the replies.

tyty333, why do you have so much reservation regarding SI2s? I feel you would be most reluctant to get one unless you had to for the price. I think for me, mind clean is eye clean + no effect on beauty.

I didnt think I implied that "I" had a lot of reservation about buying an SI2. I would definitely buy one if it suited me but I have
been admiring diamonds for a long time and have read/seen a lot of the ins/outs of buying a stone that is an SI2. I feel since I have
a lot of information and that I know how I think/feel with respect to stones it would not be a problem for me to buy an SI2. And,
to further that thinking, I don't even have to have a totally eye-clean stone if the stone suits me.

The opinion I was giving was for new buyers that are buying their first engagement ring (our typical first posters). I believe most
of these people are new to diamonds, don't really have any experience with wearing diamonds or have had the experience (by
wearing/owning different size/color/clarity stones) to form opinions. Do they have opinions? Sure, but they probably aren't based on
real-life experience. For you, eye-clean+no effect on beauty = mind clean...and that's good for you...you can buy more for your $.
But, for your friends and more importantly the wearer, how do you know in the long run what will work for them? Do they even know?

 

[D_]

Mind clean is a mental thing but I wonder if it is normal or a mental deficiency we have sometimes, like OCD, does anyone who is trained in psychiatry type subjects know, would be interesting to really know if it is or not because I am sure the vast majority don't think this way but are only looking for eye clean.

Perhaps t's like perfectionism. Maybe it used to be regarded as a good thing.
But it's really more like a curse/disease.

 

[solgen]

Do they even know?

They don't and that can be a blessing and a curse.

If it's eye clean an SI2 liekly won't bother them one bit if it performs well.


I've seen coworkers with 2ct+ stones of terrible quality. I2 or I3 and just ugly. Even though those inclusion make it look opaque they comment on how white their diamond is! No fire or scintillation but they've been convinced that's the trade off you make for a white stone. And ask some people if they want black arrows patterning on their stone and they'll be appalled.

It's once you start obtaining some knowledge that it becomes dangerous and you open yourself up to a plethora of considerations.

 

[D_]

It's once you start obtaining some knowledge that it becomes dangerous and you open yourself up to a plethora of considerations.

+1

 

[LLJsmom]

I have mental issues. Originally I wouldn't go below a VS1. Now I would consider a VS2, but nothing below. I am a perfectionist but I am compromising. Otherwise I couldn't afford any diamond at all.

 

[gm89uk]

Thanks for your clarification and all your inputs.

I purchased this stone myself http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.30-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-528685 and have spent probably collectively a few hours trying to spot the crystal inclusions (which I can easily locate with the loup) and I have sharp eyes. Browsing here I just rarely came across anyone suggesting an SI2 even in the ACA and BGS range, very few are SI2.

I could fathom why that was but it has been really helpful seeing all your point of view on it, and I'll be much more careful in my approach for suggesting SI2 stones. In all honesty I didn't think much about the "mind clean" aspect that so many go through.

@Rockdiamond is it really possible to find an eye clean SI2 3 carat? The impression I got was in the larger carats it became almost impossible! So a 1.8carat si2 after lots of searching maybe visually as stunning as a VS2 if both eye clean and all else being equal?

George

 

[AdaBeta27]

Mind clean is a mental thing but I wonder if it is normal or a mental deficiency we have sometimes, like OCD...

Perhaps t's like perfectionism. Maybe it used to be regarded as a good thing.
But it's really more like a curse/disease.

(snort!) Curse/disease is how I eventually started to feel about it. That's why I made my tongue-in-cheek remark about being an adult about the clarity issue. I just don't care anymore. I just require that the inclusions hide well. I became more practical and less idealist over time. I no longer make myself pay for things that I discovered I just don't need.

 

[Rockdiamond]

George, to the part about is it possible to find an eye clean 3ct- absolutely yes. Even larger SI2 stones can be eye clean.
A small percentage are eye clean even from the side, a larger percentage is eye clean from the top, but you may see something from the side.
What are the percentages of eye clean SI2 diamonds?
That's a great question.
Part of the fascination of grading diamonds has to do with the imperfections. Different types of crystals- feathers- cavities- it's like a geology class. In rare cases, there are imperfections that are virtually impossible to see - even with a loupe, that are still large enough the be graded SI2.
And you can't even generalize.
Twining Wisps. Can be completely innocuous, or bad news for brilliance.
Feathers which are oriented in a way so that you'd really need to look through the pavilion to see them. Move the thing 10 degrees within the stone and it's like a little flag in the diamond- you can see it from across the room
Some crystals disappear into a stone- others stand out like a sore thumb. Sometimes white crystals are far worse than other black crystals.

The point is, when I have assorted diamonds working with cutters, the variety of type, placement and consistency of imperfections you see in that SI type goods is endless.
In a raw assortment of goods, maybe 40% of the correctly graded SI2 diamonds might be eye clean.

Over time, the market changes that number.
Given that diamonds need to be approved in person- either by dealers, or even if they are purchased online, the pool of SI2 eye clean diamonds gets smaller as time goes on. The bad ones come back and just get re-listed.

Maybe you can tell but I love SI2 diamonds.
Personally I find size to be a HUGE aspect- combined with a great cut.

How much diamond can someone buy for the money?
I also think demographics when I think diamonds.
If the recipient is 30 their vision is better, and their hand a bit smaller than it will be when they are 50.
A person that needs reading glasses can easily see the color, and cut- and SIZE.
Imperfections that might bother a 30 year old, might be impossible for a 50 year old to see. If you can see the diamond, you can see the difference in size between a 2ct and a 4ct

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I just prefer overall good quality, and SI2 clarity would not be okay for me, personally. If I have an outstanding cut diamond, I want color to be in the near colorless range and clarity VS2 or higher, although I do help people find eyeclean SI1 diamonds here when that is there preference. I'd rather have a 2 ct VS2 any day over a 3 ct + SI2.

 

[mochiko42]

I bought an eyeclean G SI2 from GOG last year, but I was able to view it in person before buying it. It is more difficult to decide on purchasing a SI2 without seeing the diamond in person. I would stick to VS2 or above for a center stone if I couldn't see the stone in person (or have a vendor that I trusted to vet the diamond) before buying online. I recently bought a SI1 for studs online from WF, but had their sales rep confirm that it was eyeclean before I bought it - I was OK with SI1 for earrings but I would have wanted a higher clarity for a ring)