The great Health Care debate!

[iluvcarats]

Date: 3/15/2009 6:21:04 PM
Author: ksinger
If the elderly, the chronically ill, and the poor, who are a total drain on the rest of us and clearly have either never, or are no longer contributing anything to society, would simply have the decency to die - and quickly for god's sake - no taking resources better spent on younger more productive people, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Actually, I think you have just summed up socialized medicine. Do you honestly think every measure will be taken to save an elderly patient, or someone with stage 3 or 4 ovarian cancer? There will be a government official behind a desk, who isn't your doctor saying, "We will do everything we can to keep your loved one comfortable." Like I said before, a lot more hospice care. "The poor" might be better off, but the "elderly and the chronically ill" won't be.

 

[Porridge]

Why is everybody so scared of the word "socialist"? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

 

[Porridge]

Are there any other people from countries with public healthcare here? I know it works well in the UK. It did in France, but I believe they're nearly bankrupt from leeches. Scandinavian countries are doing well. The Netherlands has an interesting system that works very well. People must buy private insurance, but it is heavily regulated by the government. Kind of a best of both worlds situation.

I can't really comment because I'm from Ireland and our healthcare is a shambles. Our minister for health is completely profit driven. She sees healthcare as a business, not a service. She has diverted funds to admin and privatization, as a result we are chronically short on hospital beds and staff. Waiting lists are extraordinary, ER's are closing left right and centre. Yet we have the highest paid consultants in the world. One system that is working well here is a government run non-for-profit insurance company that has been around for a long time (VHI).

Our healthcare was in no great shakes before that minister got her paws on it, but it's a disaster now. The move from public to private has destroyed it. I certainly don't have the answer though!

 

[E B]

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM
Author: Porridge
Why is everybody so scared of the word 'socialist'?

It's only scary when it's helping the poor, you see.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/15/2009 7:08:14 PM
Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/15/2009 6:21:04 PM
Author: ksinger
If the elderly, the chronically ill, and the poor, who are a total drain on the rest of us and clearly have either never, or are no longer contributing anything to society, would simply have the decency to die - and quickly for god''s sake - no taking resources better spent on younger more productive people, we wouldn''t be having this discussion.

Actually, I think you have just summed up socialized medicine. Do you honestly think every measure will be taken to save an elderly patient, or someone with stage 3 or 4 ovarian cancer? There will be a government official behind a desk, who isn''t your doctor saying, ''We will do everything we can to keep your loved one comfortable.'' Like I said before, a lot more hospice care. ''The poor'' might be better off, but the ''elderly and the chronically ill'' won''t be.

I clearly wasn''t satirical enough when I typed that. ** note to self: use more eyerolls **

Just an observation actually. This mentality - the idea that there is a finite amount of healthcare and that some people don''t deserve it for whatever reason - is rife on both sides of the argument.

As someone who has been on COBRA before myself and had a pre-existing condition, I know personally the terror of being unemployed and facing down the prospect of also being uninsured. This did not happen to me thankfully, but I could see it as a real possibility. The last-ditch "insurance" provided by my state is available but so ridiculously expensive as to make it out of the question for one who is uninsured and with a pre-existing.

And hospice has its own problems, not the least of which is IT is overburdened and hurting. As kind as they are, the mentality there right now, at least at the administrative levels, is frequently a bit of toe-tapping ..."ummm...could you die a bit faster?"

I just think that if/as more of those who have never known poverty or had to worry about not having healthcare, are thrust into the same boat with "the poor" and "the entitled", their views are going to change. A lot. There but for the grace of God go I. Any one of us on this board, regardless of status, is likely only one major illness or injury away from total ruin.

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 3/15/2009 8:10:30 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 3/15/2009 7:08:14 PM

Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/15/2009 6:21:04 PM

Author: ksinger

If the elderly, the chronically ill, and the poor, who are a total drain on the rest of us and clearly have either never, or are no longer contributing anything to society, would simply have the decency to die - and quickly for god''s sake - no taking resources better spent on younger more productive people, we wouldn''t be having this discussion.

Actually, I think you have just summed up socialized medicine. Do you honestly think every measure will be taken to save an elderly patient, or someone with stage 3 or 4 ovarian cancer? There will be a government official behind a desk, who isn''t your doctor saying, ''We will do everything we can to keep your loved one comfortable.'' Like I said before, a lot more hospice care. ''The poor'' might be better off, but the ''elderly and the chronically ill'' won''t be.

I clearly wasn''t satirical enough when I typed that. ** note to self: use more eyerolls **


Just an observation actually. This mentality - the idea that there is a finite amount of healthcare and that some people don''t deserve it for whatever reason - is rife on both sides of the argument.


As someone who has been on COBRA before myself and had a pre-existing condition, I know personally the terror of being unemployed and facing down the prospect of also being uninsured. This did not happen to me thankfully, but I could see it as a real possibility. The last-ditch ''insurance'' provided by my state is available but so ridiculously expensive as to make it out of the question for one who is uninsured and with a pre-existing.


And hospice has its own problems, not the least of which is IT is overburdened and hurting. As kind as they are, the mentality there right now, at least at the administrative levels, is frequently a bit of toe-tapping ...''ummm...could you die a bit faster?''


I just think that if/as more of those who have never known poverty or had to worry about not having healthcare, are thrust into the same boat with ''the poor'' and ''the entitled'', their views are going to change. A lot. There but for the grace of God go I. Any one of us on this board, regardless of status, is likely only one major illness or injury away from total ruin.

Um. I got the sarcasm.
Really no need to patronize.
Just my opinion

 

[Jas12]

I am beyond shocked at what some of you think about universal health care. Do you think your neighbors across the border are wallowing in disease and feeding the elderly to the poor? Hate to be a snutty canadian but almost every indicator for quality of life is higher in this country and if the americans would only look across the border at our banking and governing systems things might be a LOT different (okay, i am hugely simplifying , we have our issues, but we are in great shape in the grand scheme of things)

In canada it is not called socialized medicine b/c really it is not, it is a mix of public and private, and here in canada the US model is typically the model that is used as a warning of how bad things can be if too much ''private'' creeps in.

Up until the adoption of universal health care canadians and americans performed similarily on several indicators--post universal health care we:
--gained a longer life expectancy
--Lower infant mortality
--Less disease
--Report a higher quality of living
--Have no correlation b/w income and life expectancy
And this is just what i can remember off the top of my head from a stats class. It does suggest something yes?

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/15/2009 8:49:18 PM
Author: Jas12
I am beyond shocked at what some of you think about universal health care. Do you think your neighbors across the border are wallowing in disease and feeding the elderly to the poor? Hate to be a snutty canadian but almost every indicator for quality of life is higher in this country and if the americans would only look across the border at our banking and governing systems things might be a LOT different (okay, i am hugely simplifying , we have our issues, but we are in great shape in the grand scheme of things)

In canada it is not called socialized medicine b/c really it is not, it is a mix of public and private, and here in canada the US model is typically the model that is used as a warning of how bad things can be if too much ''private'' creeps in.

Up until the adoption of universal health care canadians and americans performed similarily on several indicators--post universal health care we:
--gained a longer life expectancy
--Lower infant mortality
--Less disease
--Report a higher quality of living
--Have no correlation b/w income and life expectancy
And this is just what i can remember off the top of my head from a stats class. It does suggest something yes?

Thank you JAS!

It''s funny how Americans criticize other countries why falling behind them on important indicators. Or course, we would rather let people die and suffer than to sacrifice any of the ''benefits'' of our own personal current quasi-decent insurance.

The bottom line is that everyone needs health care, and the ability to get treatment should not be left to ''the market''. To do so is inhumane and immoral, IMO.

 

[m76steve]

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM
Author: Porridge
Why is everybody so scared of the word ''socialist''? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

if you dont mind being told what to do-how to live-are watched where you go-how far you drive & where-how you set your house thermostat-and are governed by people who look down at you thinking they know better how to take care of you than they do & know they are smarter than you-you have nothing to fear-the new socialist will keep you cradle-to-grave-b madoff, who ran the 65 billion ponzzi scheme for 20 years is a piker compared with the govt. social security ponzzi scheme going on now-just remember the govt of the us got us into this mess-& now all of a sudden they know how to fix it-dream on lemming-follow the others over the cliff-some of us still beleive in being able to think for ourselves-amazing!!

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/15/2009 8:18:28 PM
Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/15/2009 8:10:30 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 3/15/2009 7:08:14 PM

Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/15/2009 6:21:04 PM

Author: ksinger

If the elderly, the chronically ill, and the poor, who are a total drain on the rest of us and clearly have either never, or are no longer contributing anything to society, would simply have the decency to die - and quickly for god''s sake - no taking resources better spent on younger more productive people, we wouldn''t be having this discussion.

Actually, I think you have just summed up socialized medicine. Do you honestly think every measure will be taken to save an elderly patient, or someone with stage 3 or 4 ovarian cancer? There will be a government official behind a desk, who isn''t your doctor saying, ''We will do everything we can to keep your loved one comfortable.'' Like I said before, a lot more hospice care. ''The poor'' might be better off, but the ''elderly and the chronically ill'' won''t be.

I clearly wasn''t satirical enough when I typed that. ** note to self: use more eyerolls **


Just an observation actually. This mentality - the idea that there is a finite amount of healthcare and that some people don''t deserve it for whatever reason - is rife on both sides of the argument.


As someone who has been on COBRA before myself and had a pre-existing condition, I know personally the terror of being unemployed and facing down the prospect of also being uninsured. This did not happen to me thankfully, but I could see it as a real possibility. The last-ditch ''insurance'' provided by my state is available but so ridiculously expensive as to make it out of the question for one who is uninsured and with a pre-existing.


And hospice has its own problems, not the least of which is IT is overburdened and hurting. As kind as they are, the mentality there right now, at least at the administrative levels, is frequently a bit of toe-tapping ...''ummm...could you die a bit faster?''


I just think that if/as more of those who have never known poverty or had to worry about not having healthcare, are thrust into the same boat with ''the poor'' and ''the entitled'', their views are going to change. A lot. There but for the grace of God go I. Any one of us on this board, regardless of status, is likely only one major illness or injury away from total ruin.

Um. I got the sarcasm.
Really no need to patronize.
Just my opinion

You responded with what appeared to be a sincere comment to my satirical post. I''ve actually had it happen before, hence my comment in reply, and a more serious clarification of where I was coming from with the original post. You are projecting my being "patronizing" - taking my reply as a personal affront to you - where it did not exist.

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 3/16/2009 7:32:02 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 3/15/2009 8:18:28 PM

Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/15/2009 8:10:30 PM

Author: ksinger

Date: 3/15/2009 7:08:14 PM


Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/15/2009 6:21:04 PM


Author: ksinger


If the elderly, the chronically ill, and the poor, who are a total drain on the rest of us and clearly have either never, or are no longer contributing anything to society, would simply have the decency to die - and quickly for god's sake - no taking resources better spent on younger more productive people, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Actually, I think you have just summed up socialized medicine. Do you honestly think every measure will be taken to save an elderly patient, or someone with stage 3 or 4 ovarian cancer? There will be a government official behind a desk, who isn't your doctor saying, 'We will do everything we can to keep your loved one comfortable.' Like I said before, a lot more hospice care. 'The poor' might be better off, but the 'elderly and the chronically ill' won't be.

I clearly wasn't satirical enough when I typed that. ** note to self: use more eyerolls **



Just an observation actually. This mentality - the idea that there is a finite amount of healthcare and that some people don't deserve it for whatever reason - is rife on both sides of the argument.



As someone who has been on COBRA before myself and had a pre-existing condition, I know personally the terror of being unemployed and facing down the prospect of also being uninsured. This did not happen to me thankfully, but I could see it as a real possibility. The last-ditch 'insurance' provided by my state is available but so ridiculously expensive as to make it out of the question for one who is uninsured and with a pre-existing.



And hospice has its own problems, not the least of which is IT is overburdened and hurting. As kind as they are, the mentality there right now, at least at the administrative levels, is frequently a bit of toe-tapping ...'ummm...could you die a bit faster?'



I just think that if/as more of those who have never known poverty or had to worry about not having healthcare, are thrust into the same boat with 'the poor' and 'the entitled', their views are going to change. A lot. There but for the grace of God go I. Any one of us on this board, regardless of status, is likely only one major illness or injury away from total ruin.

Um. I got the sarcasm.

Really no need to patronize.

Just my opinion

You responded with what appeared to be a sincere comment to my satirical post. I've actually had it happen before, hence my comment in reply, and a more serious clarification of where I was coming from with the original post. You are projecting my being 'patronizing' - taking my reply as a personal affront to you - where it did not exist.

I took the **note to self -Use more eyerolls** as *Some people are too dim witted to recognize sarcasm*
My bad. Sorry

Your sarcasm rang loud and clear to me. The Darwinistic survival of the fittest (or richest) theory.

Everyone does deserve health care. It is a basic right for everyone.
My point is not to illustrate that other countries don't care for their ill and elderly; tossing them curbside.
It was more a reflection on Americans, and the care we are *used to*, whether right or wrong, and how it will change.
As has been pointed out in this forum before, we want it all. We want everyone to have the best possible health care. To always beat the odds. Do anything and everything possible to save a loved one, even when futile and unrealistic.
ie: "I want my 97 year old nana to get a heart transplant NOW! or I will sue you!"
Here in this country we waste (yes waste) thousands of dollars trying to save people who are impossible to save.
Mortality is a part of life. All lives come to an end eventually. Sometimes there is nothing else that can be done, but Americans are not used taking *no* for an answer. However, in a government run system we are going to have to. We can't have it both ways. I was really trying to take a look at our expectations for health care, not the possible limitations of other systems. Yes, we need some sort of change and regulation, I am just skeptical that people will embrace it.

 

[icekid]

Date: 3/16/2009 9:03:32 AM
Author: iluvcarats

Date: 3/16/2009 7:32:02 AM
Author: ksinger
You responded with what appeared to be a sincere comment to my satirical post. I''ve actually had it happen before, hence my comment in reply, and a more serious clarification of where I was coming from with the original post. You are projecting my being ''patronizing'' - taking my reply as a personal affront to you - where it did not exist.

I took the **note to self -Use more eyerolls** as *Some people are too dim witted to recognize sarcasm*
My bad. Sorry

Your sarcasm rang loud and clear to me. The Darwinistic survival of the fittest (or richest) theory.

Everyone does deserve health care. It is a basic right for everyone.
My point is not to illustrate that other countries don''t care for their ill and elderly; tossing them curbside.
It was more a reflection on Americans, and the care we are *used to*, whether right or wrong, and how it will change.
As has been pointed out in this forum before, we want it all. We want everyone to have the best possible health care. To always beat the odds. Do anything and everything possible to save a loved one, even when futile and unrealistic.
ie: ''I want my 97 year old nana to get a heart transplant NOW! or I will sue you!''
Here in this country we waste (yes waste) thousands of dollars trying to save people who are impossible to save.
Mortality is a part of life. All lives come to an end eventually. Sometimes there is nothing else that can be done, but Americans are not used taking *no* for an answer. However, in a government run system we are going to have to. We can''t have it both ways. I was really trying to take a look at our expectations for health care, not the possible limitations of other systems. Yes, we need some sort of change and regulation, I am just skeptical that people will embrace it.

This is EXACTLY the point that we have been trying to make. I do not think anyone here was trying to say that the poor and elderly do not deserve care. I will insert my own eye rolls here

What we ARE trying to say is that NO ONE deserves care that is FUTILE and ridiculously PRICEY at the expense of no care for others.

 

[Porridge]

Date: 3/16/2009 5:14:39 AM
Author: m76steve

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM

Author: Porridge

Why is everybody so scared of the word 'socialist'? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

if you dont mind being told what to do-how to live-are watched where you go-how far you drive & where-how you set your house thermostat-and are governed by people who look down at you thinking they know better how to take care of you than they do & know they are smarter than you-you have nothing to fear-the new socialist will keep you cradle-to-grave-b madoff, who ran the 65 billion ponzzi scheme for 20 years is a piker compared with the govt. social security ponzzi scheme going on now-just remember the govt of the us got us into this mess-& now all of a sudden they know how to fix it-dream on lemming-follow the others over the cliff-some of us still beleive in being able to think for ourselves-amazing!!

Wow...I live in a "socialised" country and none of this happens to me! I've never been told what to do or how to live other than been given free university education which I can use as I please. I'm "watched" more in the states than I am at home (they have every piece of info possible on me, incl fingerprints! Just for a holiday visa!), I've never been told how far to drive...not sure where that one applies. I've also never been told how to set my thermostat, not sure what that one's about either. Do these things happen in some other countries that I'm not aware of? Does it have to do with carbon emissions? I'm probably looked down on by idiot politicians but hey that's the nature of politicians in every country! I think your next sentence says it all - you don't trust the American government to make decisions. Fair enough. Other than that, I'm not sure where you're getting the other ideas from about a socialised society, but there are plenty of examples where it is working extremely well!

I'm not sure what you mean by thinking for ourselves. Do you mean you think that the american government would try to make every decision for you if they were in charge of healthcare, as opposed to an insurance company?

 

[Porridge]

The big problem people seem to have is to do with paying money for healthcare for the poor when they themselves don't contribute enough. I'm talking about the lazy leeches of society here, the couple that "chooses not to work" etc. Fair enough, blood boiling stuff

. But here's my question, and excuse my ignorance but I really know very little about American healthcare; what about their children? If somebody can't afford family health insurance and their seven year old gets diagnosed with leukemia, what happens? I presume there's some system in place, surely they're not just left to die. How does this compare with the treatment the child of well off couple receives? Is it like university, if you can pay you get a great education, if not, good luck to you? All because of your parent's income?

 

[Libster]

Here is some information about the United States children''s health insurance program.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/chiphome.htm

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/LowCostHealthInsFamChild/

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/16/2009 9:51:05 AM
Author: Porridge

If somebody can't afford family health insurance and their seven year old gets diagnosed with leukemia, what happens? I presume there's some system in place, surely they're not just left to die. How does this compare with the treatment the child of well off couple receives? Is it like university, if you can pay you get a great education, if not, good luck to you? All because of your parent's income?

If the income is low enough the state kicks in and helps if the income is above the that level but below the level to get full insurance then the hospitals and many doctors do charity care that covers some of it, the rest of it gets sent to collection agencies then they come after the parents.
If they cant find it on payments then the kid will go without.
There is a waiting list for charity aid for some medications.

A friend of mine and his wife got divorced so their daughter could get medical care for a heart defect.
She went on welfare and the daughter got the treatment she needed.
She is now 10 and in good health after 5 surgeries over a 3 year period to repair a heart defect.
Her mom however has to remain on welfare because there is no way to get her daughter medical insurance now with a job she is qualified to do.
The only alternative is a state ran private group policy with blue shield that is sliding scale. (Libster linked to the program which varies state to state)
By there would be a 6 month gap in coverage that the daughter may not survive if she has a problem.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/16/2009 9:42:40 AM
Author: Porridge

Date: 3/16/2009 5:14:39 AM

Author: m76steve

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM


Author: Porridge


Why is everybody so scared of the word ''socialist''? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

if you dont mind being told what to do-how to live-are watched where you go-how far you drive & where-how you set your house thermostat-and are governed by people who look down at you thinking they know better how to take care of you than they do & know they are smarter than you-you have nothing to fear-the new socialist will keep you cradle-to-grave-b madoff, who ran the 65 billion ponzzi scheme for 20 years is a piker compared with the govt. social security ponzzi scheme going on now-just remember the govt of the us got us into this mess-& now all of a sudden they know how to fix it-dream on lemming-follow the others over the cliff-some of us still beleive in being able to think for ourselves-amazing!!

Wow...I live in a ''socialised'' country and none of this happens to me! I''ve never been told what to do or how to live other than been given free university education which I can use as I please. I''m ''watched'' more in the states than I am at home (they have every piece of info possible on me, incl fingerprints! Just for a holiday visa!), I''ve never been told how far to drive...not sure where that one applies. I''ve also never been told how to set my thermostat, not sure what that one''s about either. Do these things happen in some other countries that I''m not aware of? Does it have to do with carbon emissions? I''m probably looked down on by idiot politicians but hey that''s the nature of politicians in every country! I think your next sentence says it all - you don''t trust the American government to make decisions. Fair enough. Other than that, I''m not sure where you''re getting the other ideas from about a socialised society, but there are plenty of examples where it is working extremely well!


I''m not sure what you mean by thinking for ourselves. Do you mean you think that the american government would try to make every decision for you if they were in charge of healthcare, as opposed to an insurance company?

Hiya Porridge,

Thanks for giving us a voice of reason from someone who knows what socialism really is.

I''m afraid what you''ve just experienced is quite common in our country. That kind of nonsensical reactionary propaganda has a long tradition in our political discourse. It originated in the 1950s as part of the notorious "RED SCARE," and continues today with the vile emissions from this country''s fundamentalist conservative Right Wing.

They (The Right) have been completely discredited with the collapse of the Bush regime, but continue to dribble on and on in a desperate attempt to stay in the conversation.

It''s pretty entertaining once you realize there''s not a shred of truth in it. Stick around in this thread if you want to read some more great screeds.

Some Americans would like you to believe that Socialism = Communism, and that Communism = Totalitarianism, because governments have bastardized the terminology for their own gain. We know that North Korea is a totalitarian regime, but they, of course, call it communism. General perception of socialism in this country, is that socialism will lead to totalitarianism, despite the evidence to the contrary that you have provided.

Thanks Porridge and thanks Jas. Good to get it from the source.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/15/2009 8:49:18 PM
Author: Jas12


In canada it is not called socialized medicine b/c really it is not, it is a mix of public and private, and here in canada the US model is typically the model that is used as a warning of how bad things can be if too much 'private' creeps in.


Up until the adoption of universal health care canadians and americans performed similarily on several indicators--post universal health care we:

--gained a longer life expectancy

--Lower infant mortality

--Less disease

--Report a higher quality of living

--Have no correlation b/w income and life expectancy

And this is just what i can remember off the top of my head from a stats class. It does suggest something yes?

It suggests a ton, Jas. If Americans would stop buying into the propaganda, then maybe we could get somewhere with healthcare, but this country is too entrenched with the palpable fear and hatred of the concept of non profit medicine.

Even though it's widely reported that the US spends more on healthcare than any other western industrialized nation, about 42 million here are still uninsured. The evidence is right in front of us, but the indoctrination is too deep. Just another part of the ideological divide of our polarized country.

Privatization is a recipe for disaster. I cannot for the life of me understand why people would rather entrust their lives with a corporate fiefdom than with government regulation. Peanut Butter anyone?

 

[swimmer]

Date: 3/16/2009 10:18:05 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/16/2009 9:51:05 AM

Author: Porridge


If somebody can''t afford family health insurance and their seven year old gets diagnosed with leukemia, what happens? I presume there''s some system in place, surely they''re not just left to die. How does this compare with the treatment the child of well off couple receives? Is it like university, if you can pay you get a great education, if not, good luck to you? All because of your parent''s income?

If the income is low enough the state kicks in and helps if the income is above the that level but below the level to get full insurance then the hospitals and many doctors do charity care that covers some of it, the rest of it gets sent to collection agencies then they come after the parents.

If they cant find it on payments then the kid will go without.

There is a waiting list for charity aid for some medications.


A friend of mine and his wife got divorced so their daughter could get medical care for a heart defect.

She went on welfare and the daughter got the treatment she needed.

She is now 10 and in good health after 5 surgeries over a 3 year period to repair a heart defect.

Her mom however has to remain on welfare because there is no way to get her daughter medical insurance now with a job she is qualified to do.

The only alternative is a state ran private group policy with blue shield that is sliding scale. (Libster linked to the program which varies state to state)

By there would be a 6 month gap in coverage that the daughter may not survive if she has a problem.

Thank you for illustrating so clearly how desperately broken the US''s healthcare system is.

Great points Jas, Porridge, and Coati!

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/16/2009 12:32:10 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 3/16/2009 9:42:40 AM
Author: Porridge

Date: 3/16/2009 5:14:39 AM

Author: m76steve

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM


Author: Porridge


Why is everybody so scared of the word ''socialist''? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

if you dont mind being told what to do-how to live-are watched where you go-how far you drive & where-how you set your house thermostat-and are governed by people who look down at you thinking they know better how to take care of you than they do & know they are smarter than you-you have nothing to fear-the new socialist will keep you cradle-to-grave-b madoff, who ran the 65 billion ponzzi scheme for 20 years is a piker compared with the govt. social security ponzzi scheme going on now-just remember the govt of the us got us into this mess-& now all of a sudden they know how to fix it-dream on lemming-follow the others over the cliff-some of us still beleive in being able to think for ourselves-amazing!!

Wow...I live in a ''socialised'' country and none of this happens to me! I''ve never been told what to do or how to live other than been given free university education which I can use as I please. I''m ''watched'' more in the states than I am at home (they have every piece of info possible on me, incl fingerprints! Just for a holiday visa!), I''ve never been told how far to drive...not sure where that one applies. I''ve also never been told how to set my thermostat, not sure what that one''s about either. Do these things happen in some other countries that I''m not aware of? Does it have to do with carbon emissions? I''m probably looked down on by idiot politicians but hey that''s the nature of politicians in every country! I think your next sentence says it all - you don''t trust the American government to make decisions. Fair enough. Other than that, I''m not sure where you''re getting the other ideas from about a socialised society, but there are plenty of examples where it is working extremely well!


I''m not sure what you mean by thinking for ourselves. Do you mean you think that the american government would try to make every decision for you if they were in charge of healthcare, as opposed to an insurance company?

Hiya Porridge,

Thanks for giving us a voice of reason from someone who knows what socialism really is.

I''m afraid what you''ve just experienced is quite common in our country. That kind of nonsensical reactionary propaganda has a long tradition in our political discourse. It originated in the 1950s as part of the notorious ''RED SCARE,'' and continues today with the vile emissions from this country''s fundamentalist conservative Right Wing.

They (The Right) have been completely discredited with the collapse of the Bush regime, but continue to dribble on and on in a desperate attempt to stay in the conversation.

It''s pretty entertaining once you realize there''s not a shred of truth in it. Stick around in this thread if you want to read some more great screeds.

Some Americans would like you to believe that Socialism = Communism, and that Communism = Totalitarianism, because governments have bastardized the terminology for their own gain. We know that North Korea is a totalitarian regime, but they, of course, call it communism. General perception of socialism in this country, is that socialism will lead to totalitarianism, despite the evidence to the contrary that you have provided.

Thanks Porridge and thanks Jas. Good to get it from the source.

I was surprised that my accounts of my parents'' experience from a socialist country that I posted about earlier wasn''t noted here - where they had terrible health care, barely enough food to survive and had to escape the country under penalty of death. I guess that''s the Left Wing propaganda talking - that socialist countries can do no wrong. If that''s so, why do so many people from many of those countries try to come to the US?

 

[E B]

Date: 3/16/2009 1:10:45 PM
Author: swimmer

Thank you for illustrating so clearly how desperately broken the US''s healthcare system is.

Great points Jas, Porridge, and Coati!

I completely agree.

 

[zhuzhu]

vespergirl
Maybe if you provide more detailed information on how your parents had terrible health care, barely enough food to survive and had to escape the country under penalty of death, or rather, just the name of that particular country, we can have better data to go by?

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 3/16/2009 1:11:27 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/16/2009 12:32:10 PM

Author: coatimundi

Date: 3/16/2009 9:42:40 AM

Author: Porridge

Date: 3/16/2009 5:14:39 AM


Author: m76steve

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM



Author: Porridge



Why is everybody so scared of the word ''socialist''? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

if you dont mind being told what to do-how to live-are watched where you go-how far you drive & where-how you set your house thermostat-and are governed by people who look down at you thinking they know better how to take care of you than they do & know they are smarter than you-you have nothing to fear-the new socialist will keep you cradle-to-grave-b madoff, who ran the 65 billion ponzzi scheme for 20 years is a piker compared with the govt. social security ponzzi scheme going on now-just remember the govt of the us got us into this mess-& now all of a sudden they know how to fix it-dream on lemming-follow the others over the cliff-some of us still beleive in being able to think for ourselves-amazing!!

Wow...I live in a ''socialised'' country and none of this happens to me! I''ve never been told what to do or how to live other than been given free university education which I can use as I please. I''m ''watched'' more in the states than I am at home (they have every piece of info possible on me, incl fingerprints! Just for a holiday visa!), I''ve never been told how far to drive...not sure where that one applies. I''ve also never been told how to set my thermostat, not sure what that one''s about either. Do these things happen in some other countries that I''m not aware of? Does it have to do with carbon emissions? I''m probably looked down on by idiot politicians but hey that''s the nature of politicians in every country! I think your next sentence says it all - you don''t trust the American government to make decisions. Fair enough. Other than that, I''m not sure where you''re getting the other ideas from about a socialised society, but there are plenty of examples where it is working extremely well!



I''m not sure what you mean by thinking for ourselves. Do you mean you think that the american government would try to make every decision for you if they were in charge of healthcare, as opposed to an insurance company?

Hiya Porridge,


Thanks for giving us a voice of reason from someone who knows what socialism really is.


I''m afraid what you''ve just experienced is quite common in our country. That kind of nonsensical reactionary propaganda has a long tradition in our political discourse. It originated in the 1950s as part of the notorious ''RED SCARE,'' and continues today with the vile emissions from this country''s fundamentalist conservative Right Wing.


They (The Right) have been completely discredited with the collapse of the Bush regime, but continue to dribble on and on in a desperate attempt to stay in the conversation.


It''s pretty entertaining once you realize there''s not a shred of truth in it. Stick around in this thread if you want to read some more great screeds.


Some Americans would like you to believe that Socialism = Communism, and that Communism = Totalitarianism, because governments have bastardized the terminology for their own gain. We know that North Korea is a totalitarian regime, but they, of course, call it communism. General perception of socialism in this country, is that socialism will lead to totalitarianism, despite the evidence to the contrary that you have provided.


Thanks Porridge and thanks Jas. Good to get it from the source.

I was surprised that my accounts of my parents'' experience from a socialist country that I posted about earlier wasn''t noted here - where they had terrible health care, barely enough food to survive and had to escape the country under penalty of death. I guess that''s the Left Wing propaganda talking - that socialist countries can do no wrong. If that''s so, why do so many people from many of those countries try to come to the US?

You didn''t receive a response because what you described doesn''t support much of the "discussion" going on here. It''s a typical ultra left-wing liberal way of doing business. You ignore empirical evidence if it doesn''t support your case. (And I guess I can say that since I''m one of those "Right Wingers who merely spew vile emissions")
You have something important to say here, and some of us WILL listen...and learn.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/16/2009 1:10:45 PM
Author: swimmer

Thank you for illustrating so clearly how desperately broken the US''s healthcare system is.


Great points Jas, Porridge, and Coati!

.gov would likely mess it up worse.
Case in point VA...

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 3/16/2009 2:03:40 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 3/16/2009 1:11:27 PM

Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/16/2009 12:32:10 PM


Author: coatimundi

Date: 3/16/2009 9:42:40 AM


Author: Porridge

Date: 3/16/2009 5:14:39 AM



Author: m76steve

Date: 3/15/2009 7:44:57 PM




Author: Porridge




Why is everybody so scared of the word ''socialist''? Are you really that terrified of your government? More so than a for-profit insurance company??

if you dont mind being told what to do-how to live-are watched where you go-how far you drive & where-how you set your house thermostat-and are governed by people who look down at you thinking they know better how to take care of you than they do & know they are smarter than you-you have nothing to fear-the new socialist will keep you cradle-to-grave-b madoff, who ran the 65 billion ponzzi scheme for 20 years is a piker compared with the govt. social security ponzzi scheme going on now-just remember the govt of the us got us into this mess-& now all of a sudden they know how to fix it-dream on lemming-follow the others over the cliff-some of us still beleive in being able to think for ourselves-amazing!!

Wow...I live in a ''socialised'' country and none of this happens to me! I''ve never been told what to do or how to live other than been given free university education which I can use as I please. I''m ''watched'' more in the states than I am at home (they have every piece of info possible on me, incl fingerprints! Just for a holiday visa!), I''ve never been told how far to drive...not sure where that one applies. I''ve also never been told how to set my thermostat, not sure what that one''s about either. Do these things happen in some other countries that I''m not aware of? Does it have to do with carbon emissions? I''m probably looked down on by idiot politicians but hey that''s the nature of politicians in every country! I think your next sentence says it all - you don''t trust the American government to make decisions. Fair enough. Other than that, I''m not sure where you''re getting the other ideas from about a socialised society, but there are plenty of examples where it is working extremely well!




I''m not sure what you mean by thinking for ourselves. Do you mean you think that the american government would try to make every decision for you if they were in charge of healthcare, as opposed to an insurance company?

Hiya Porridge,



Thanks for giving us a voice of reason from someone who knows what socialism really is.



I''m afraid what you''ve just experienced is quite common in our country. That kind of nonsensical reactionary propaganda has a long tradition in our political discourse. It originated in the 1950s as part of the notorious ''RED SCARE,'' and continues today with the vile emissions from this country''s fundamentalist conservative Right Wing.



They (The Right) have been completely discredited with the collapse of the Bush regime, but continue to dribble on and on in a desperate attempt to stay in the conversation.



It''s pretty entertaining once you realize there''s not a shred of truth in it. Stick around in this thread if you want to read some more great screeds.



Some Americans would like you to believe that Socialism = Communism, and that Communism = Totalitarianism, because governments have bastardized the terminology for their own gain. We know that North Korea is a totalitarian regime, but they, of course, call it communism. General perception of socialism in this country, is that socialism will lead to totalitarianism, despite the evidence to the contrary that you have provided.



Thanks Porridge and thanks Jas. Good to get it from the source.

I was surprised that my accounts of my parents'' experience from a socialist country that I posted about earlier wasn''t noted here - where they had terrible health care, barely enough food to survive and had to escape the country under penalty of death. I guess that''s the Left Wing propaganda talking - that socialist countries can do no wrong. If that''s so, why do so many people from many of those countries try to come to the US?

You didn''t receive a response because what you described doesn''t support much of the ''discussion'' going on here. It''s a typical ultra left-wing liberal way of doing business. You ignore empirical evidence if it doesn''t support your case. (And I guess I can say that since I''m one of those ''Right Wingers who merely spew vile emissions'')

You have something important to say here, and some of us WILL listen...and learn.

Beebrisk,
Since this topic is about healthcare reform and not "which political party is better", would it be alright if you refrain from your inflammatory political agenda of dividing the group?

I get that you have a lot of frustration about the dynamics of ATW, but taking every chance you can to vent is not necessarily productive for the ORIGINAL topic of the thread. Why not start your own?

 

[E B]

Date: 3/16/2009 2:03:40 PM
Author: beebrisk

You didn''t receive a response because what you described doesn''t support much of the ''discussion'' going on here. It''s a typical ultra left-wing liberal way of doing business.

Typing this repeatedly doesn''t make it true, bee (though I have come to enjoy reading it again and again). So far, I''d say this thread has a pretty equal balance of ''liberal'' and ''conservative'' viewpoints.

I agree with zhu, vesper- I''m curious to hear more details of your parents'' story, if you want to share them.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/16/2009 2:17:57 PM
Author: EBree

I agree with zhu, vesper- I'm curious to hear more details of your parents' story, if you want to share them.

I'm with ya, Ebree.

A position without specifics is an indefensible one.

Many people have immigrated to the US from countries that are NOT, in fact, "socialist." For example, Russia, it used to a communist state, and now it has developed into an Oligarchy that has surface trappings of democracy and substantial remnants of authoritarianism. Russia's version of communism at its height is different from China's version of communism at its height.

Just keep on confusing socialism with bastardized totalitarian versions of communism, people.

Using the right terminology is a good place to start.

 

[saltymuffin]

There is a whole lot of grey zone between pure capitalism and pure communism. You can sit anywhere along the line between the two, there aren''t just two chairs. Although it is firmly on the right, the United States already sits in this grey zone - it is by no means a purely capitalist country.

Socialism does not equal communism or a lack of democracy. You can have a capitalist economic system and still have social programs like health care and public education, provided by a democratically elected government.

Look at most of Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. These countries all offer public health care, public education, and public transportation yet are still countries with capitalist economies. They are all democratic nations with high levels of personal freedom. No one has to "escape" from any of these places. Examples of sucessful socialism are not only found in Sweden, but pretty much everywhere. The United States (according to wikipedia) is the ONLY wealthy, industrialised nation without universal health care. Is it the only free, democratic and stable country in the world? Hardly. Is it even the most free, democratic and stable? I would say not.

Granted, none of these universal health care systems are perfect - but neither is the private system in the US. You can''t have perfect, you just have to pick what matches your values best. If you value the freedom of the individual over society as a whole, you end up with a private health care system, and all the weaknesses that come along with it. If you value strength of society over individual freedoms you have to deal with the weaknesses of a public system. Neither is right or wrong, it is a matter of values.

But don''t argue that universal health care systems don''t work, or that they provide sub-standard health care. This simply isn''t a universal truth. Just as it isn''t a universal truth that people without helath insurance have no options for health care in the US.

My own opinion is that the government should provide basic services for its people. This includes safety and security (police, fire protection, national defence), infrastructure (roads, public transportation, water and sanitation systems), regulatory bodies (licencing and monitoring of industry for public health and protection reasons) and health and education. I see health care as right up there with police service and access to clean water. It is vital and should be funded through tax dollars. I don''t see taxes as evil either, I see them as the way to provide the basics for society.

I also do not beleive in the "survival of the fittest" when it comes to a modern society. We no longer have to fight each other to survive - we can afford to provide the basics for the less fortunate. If "less fortunate" means less smart, less sneaky, less cared for, less physically strong or disabled, so be it. Everyone deserves the same chance to succeed, and to succeed you need the basics, including a good education and health care. What you do with these basic opportunites is where the freedom of the individual comes in for me.

 

[Porridge]

Fantastic point Saltymuffin. Outside the US, I''ve honestly never heard the word "socialism". All it means to be from a "socialist" country such as a European country, Australia, Canada, NZ etc is that we live in a democratic, capitalist society that provides more public services with taxes. I agree with your points about healthcare being as vital as police services, roads, water, energy...that''s how it is seen in these countries. When you try to run a basic necessary service as a profitable business, the customer as a whole can''t help but lose out.

Thank you for those links Libster, very informative. strmrdr I am still in shock over that anecdote. To think that somebody would have to go through this simply because their child got sick is just frightening. I believe somebody mentioned earlier in this thread that we are all just one major medical emergency away from bankruptcy. I think your point illustrates that very well. Coati - thanks for the heads up! Last time I was in the States (which I love in general by the way - FI and I are moving to California for a couple of years with FI''s job and I can''t wait! That''s partly why I''m so curious!) somebody got me to listen to the Jon and Ken show and also Rush Limbaugh...now that was an eye opener! Vespergirl I think if you gave us some information we''d be able to comment on it! I''d love to hear another perspective. Thank you Ebree and Swimmer

 

[beebrisk]

ZHU,

LOLOL...Did you read Coati's post? If not, here's just a sample:

Im afraid what you've just experienced is quite common in our country. That kind of nonsensical reactionary propaganda has a long tradition in our political discourse. It originated in the 1950s as part of the notorious 'RED SCARE,' and continues today with the vile emissions from this country's fundamentalist conservative Right Wing.

They (The Right) have been completely discredited with the collapse of the Bush regime, but continue to dribble on and on in a desperate attempt to stay in the conversation.

It's pretty entertaining once you realize there's not a shred of truth in it. Stick around in this thread if you want to read some more great screeds.

No surprise there'd be indignation about my post though...