- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Messages
- 2,547
I wonder if the window''s Perry is talking about has tougher glass? I don''t understand why they are so special?? So it is the hidden lock/latch? Ellen, honey, I don''t mind if you threadjack, threadjack away. hehee
Skippy
I don''t know what the difference is. Ours are thermal, and yes, I guess it''s kind of like a hidden lock. Although I wouldn''t really call it a lock, but it can be pushed flush so the window will raise, or flipped out so it won''t open more than a couple inches.
Doesn''t matter what kind he''s suggesting though, if ours aren''t like them, we''re not forking out several thousand dollars again for what we just bought.
Ellen
Sumbride, these guys are popping open LOCKED windows (new). Evidently, it''s not that hard, at least on some.
Ellen
Watch the vids here,, this is the type of windows Perry is talking about.
http://www.housearmor.com/video/index.html
Strmrdr
Actually, Storm has it partly wrong. Those are not the windows I am talking about. Now those are security windows... and they might even be good ones. I don''t know. Most windows are not broken into by breaking the glass. But some are.
So lets talk about windows... and what to look for if you are buying windows.
First for Ellen. Yes use those little pop out thingies. Assuming your window frame has decent strenght it will stop some attacks. Note, the thermal-gard windows have those too. But, I''m betting the frame is a lot stronger.
Anyway - onto window security 101 (otherwise known as windows 410 as it is normally a graduate class).
A window has many possible vunrabilities:
1) Glass breakage.
2) Easy to unlock.
3) Glass removal.
4) Weak frame.
5) Window left open and unlocked.
While some thefts are done by simple glass breakage, most are not.
Obviously, it is up to you to not leave your window open and unlocked - and the best window in the world will not prevent a criminal from getting in that way.
But, most people buy windows that suffer from items 2, 3, and 4 and make # 1 relatively easy.
It truely amazes me to walk up to a new set of modern multipane windows... and notice that I can remove the glass pack from the outside, usually with my pocketknife. This is a lot more common than you think. In fact... its routine... I don''t know if it takes me 10 seconds or so to pop out the glass pack on some windows.... Better yet when someone has their window sash alarmed... (ha ha).
So a very good first question: If someone broke your window... (or your glass door) how is the glass changed. If it is changed from the outside - your window, or glass door, cannot be made secure - and usually can be opened in less than 30 seconds by someone who knows how (better yet, when they are done they can pop ithe glass pack back in and you will never know how they got in).
Thermal-gard windows have non-replacable glass. The entire sash must be replaced (and in my area the guarantee is that they do it for free for 10 years regardless of how the window gets broken - if it gets broken, not that many thermal-gard windows ever get broken as they are tough to break).
I also cannot begin to describe how poorly the locks and sash seals are made for the vast majority of windows. Extreemly easy to pop from the outside (or manipulate through that several inches the window is open). There are so many poorly made locks that I just don''t know where to begin with it. Of course, there are also companies who make really good locks too - ones that can''t be jimmey, yet are very easy to use. Are Thermal-gards the best. Don''t know that. I just know that they cannot be jimmied from the outside - even if the window is several inches open and resting against those stop thingies...
One of the reasons why what look like otherwise very good window locks are so easy to jimmy is that the frames and sashes themselves are very weak - and flex a lot. Hollow formed vinyl window frames.... I''m not convinced that they can be made secure - at all - ever. Just a little pressure with a screwdriver or small prybar.... and you can either directly pop the locks - or gain access to the locking mechanism and unlock the window. Piece of cake...
Thermal-gard windows have a vinyl coated aluminum frame, for both the window frame and the sash - with the aluminum frame providing the strength and ridegety of the window (and the vinyl providing care free coatings and thermal breaks). Becasue of this they also meet commercial building codes for strength - and can be installed in commercial buildings. Of course it is tough & tempered aluminum that just dosn''t flex worth a dang with a prybar... Thus, you cannot spring the frame or sash and pop the locks - or gain access to them.
So finally, a thief relizes that they need to make a bit of noise and break the glass to get in... For most window that is an easy task. Thermal-gard does not claim to make security windows that are break proof or bullet proff. But, I''ve hit them hard with no effect... and the local vendor tells me that he replaces a broken sash about once every 5 years (where he used to replace broken glass routinely every month before he started repping Thermal-Gard). Here is why.
A thermal-gard window was developed as a very thermally efficient window and as a premium window that should last problem free for at least 50 years. The standard glass pack is substaintially different than other thermal windows in several very important ways.
First, in order to make the glass easy to clean they use float glass. That''s more expensive than most glass - but provides a natural very smooth glass surface without a zillion small surface defects for a crack to originate from (and they are a dream to clean as you can whip butter off the window with a paper towel - and not leave a grease stain).
Then they temper it for strength.... and coat it with various thermal performance coatings for the inside surfaces (which do not add strengh - but does improve thermal performance).
There are three layers of this glass....
And it is not held together by an aluminum channel...
Did you ever notice how most windows the glass pack is held together with an aluminum channel. Did you ever notice that the glass cracks from a corner that is restrained by that aluminum (in about 10 years on average - totally destroying most of the themal performance package).
Thermal-gard windows use a form of flexible silicon seal between each layer of glass, and then a butly seal around the outer edges of the glass pack. No hard metal touches the glass. If pressure is put on the glass - say from a blow - it is transmitted to the soft silicone seal which flexes. Tempered break resistant float glass on a flexible shock absorbing mounting.... can take quite the blow before it will break. This is way harder than what most windows break at.... and you''ve got three layers to go through..... Most thieves give it one hard whack (which normally bounces off without breaking the first layer) and decide that their are easier targets. Of course, a determined person can get through all three layers. But, it is a lot more difficult than an ordinary window.
As far as escape from the inside in the case of a fire. These windows are quite easy to open from the inside.
And here is the link... For decades this was considered, and I think still is "America''s #1 Insulated Replacement Window." A highly energy efficient window (as good as it gets)- that is also easy to use, easy to clean, and inately very secure (about as good as it gets from a security standpoint). But, not cheap (as in - you have to pay for what you get).
http://www.thermal-gard.com/
Note my comments above are for the Conserver series. I understand that the 500-600 series is a lower cost window developed for the new construction market by the new owners. I am not sure what features they cut, and I don''t really want to know either.
Oh, if you think the windows are good.... I''d love to see a thief get through a "Defend Door" as they expanded into nice looking home security doors as well (although I have seen other nice security doors on the market).
As for the windows that Storm linked. OK, they are constructed from a break proof glass. I did not dig into their features enough to figure out how the glass is replaced, what kinds of locks and if they can easily be jimmeyed, and how the frame is constructed and if it can be jimmeyed. Of course, I doubt that they are making any great claims on energy efficiency.
My suggestion - if you are looking for windows. Unless you actually need bullet proof glass... or are in an area that people routinly have windows broken in by smash and grabs... that the Thermal-Gard home windows (Conserver series) are essentially as good as you can get, from a long standing national company with a truely excellent reputation. Note that the conserver series is only sold as installed units as the installation needs to be done right. Oh yeh, these people will want you to sit through a 2 hour presentation too... (3 or more if you have lots of questions). May I suggest a good bowl of popcorn... It''s worth the show...
Some people just install these on the first floor with defend doors....
I will address another time other aspects of home security. But the real key is to install or build something good enough to just keep most of them out. Thermal-Gard windows do that - and give you great energy efficiency to boot.
Perry
Skippy
I don''t know what the difference is. Ours are thermal, and yes, I guess it''s kind of like a hidden lock. Although I wouldn''t really call it a lock, but it can be pushed flush so the window will raise, or flipped out so it won''t open more than a couple inches.
Doesn''t matter what kind he''s suggesting though, if ours aren''t like them, we''re not forking out several thousand dollars again for what we just bought.
Ellen
Sumbride, these guys are popping open LOCKED windows (new). Evidently, it''s not that hard, at least on some.
Ellen
Watch the vids here,, this is the type of windows Perry is talking about.
http://www.housearmor.com/video/index.html
There are other companies that sell film that goes over the glass but they don''t work because they can just pop the frame and the glass is out in 10 seconds.
Strmrdr
Actually, Storm has it partly wrong. Those are not the windows I am talking about. Now those are security windows... and they might even be good ones. I don''t know. Most windows are not broken into by breaking the glass. But some are.
So lets talk about windows... and what to look for if you are buying windows.
First for Ellen. Yes use those little pop out thingies. Assuming your window frame has decent strenght it will stop some attacks. Note, the thermal-gard windows have those too. But, I''m betting the frame is a lot stronger.
Anyway - onto window security 101 (otherwise known as windows 410 as it is normally a graduate class).
A window has many possible vunrabilities:
1) Glass breakage.
2) Easy to unlock.
3) Glass removal.
4) Weak frame.
5) Window left open and unlocked.
While some thefts are done by simple glass breakage, most are not.
Obviously, it is up to you to not leave your window open and unlocked - and the best window in the world will not prevent a criminal from getting in that way.
But, most people buy windows that suffer from items 2, 3, and 4 and make # 1 relatively easy.
It truely amazes me to walk up to a new set of modern multipane windows... and notice that I can remove the glass pack from the outside, usually with my pocketknife. This is a lot more common than you think. In fact... its routine... I don''t know if it takes me 10 seconds or so to pop out the glass pack on some windows.... Better yet when someone has their window sash alarmed... (ha ha).
So a very good first question: If someone broke your window... (or your glass door) how is the glass changed. If it is changed from the outside - your window, or glass door, cannot be made secure - and usually can be opened in less than 30 seconds by someone who knows how (better yet, when they are done they can pop ithe glass pack back in and you will never know how they got in).
Thermal-gard windows have non-replacable glass. The entire sash must be replaced (and in my area the guarantee is that they do it for free for 10 years regardless of how the window gets broken - if it gets broken, not that many thermal-gard windows ever get broken as they are tough to break).
I also cannot begin to describe how poorly the locks and sash seals are made for the vast majority of windows. Extreemly easy to pop from the outside (or manipulate through that several inches the window is open). There are so many poorly made locks that I just don''t know where to begin with it. Of course, there are also companies who make really good locks too - ones that can''t be jimmey, yet are very easy to use. Are Thermal-gards the best. Don''t know that. I just know that they cannot be jimmied from the outside - even if the window is several inches open and resting against those stop thingies...
One of the reasons why what look like otherwise very good window locks are so easy to jimmy is that the frames and sashes themselves are very weak - and flex a lot. Hollow formed vinyl window frames.... I''m not convinced that they can be made secure - at all - ever. Just a little pressure with a screwdriver or small prybar.... and you can either directly pop the locks - or gain access to the locking mechanism and unlock the window. Piece of cake...
Thermal-gard windows have a vinyl coated aluminum frame, for both the window frame and the sash - with the aluminum frame providing the strength and ridegety of the window (and the vinyl providing care free coatings and thermal breaks). Becasue of this they also meet commercial building codes for strength - and can be installed in commercial buildings. Of course it is tough & tempered aluminum that just dosn''t flex worth a dang with a prybar... Thus, you cannot spring the frame or sash and pop the locks - or gain access to them.
So finally, a thief relizes that they need to make a bit of noise and break the glass to get in... For most window that is an easy task. Thermal-gard does not claim to make security windows that are break proof or bullet proff. But, I''ve hit them hard with no effect... and the local vendor tells me that he replaces a broken sash about once every 5 years (where he used to replace broken glass routinely every month before he started repping Thermal-Gard). Here is why.
A thermal-gard window was developed as a very thermally efficient window and as a premium window that should last problem free for at least 50 years. The standard glass pack is substaintially different than other thermal windows in several very important ways.
First, in order to make the glass easy to clean they use float glass. That''s more expensive than most glass - but provides a natural very smooth glass surface without a zillion small surface defects for a crack to originate from (and they are a dream to clean as you can whip butter off the window with a paper towel - and not leave a grease stain).
Then they temper it for strength.... and coat it with various thermal performance coatings for the inside surfaces (which do not add strengh - but does improve thermal performance).
There are three layers of this glass....
And it is not held together by an aluminum channel...
Did you ever notice how most windows the glass pack is held together with an aluminum channel. Did you ever notice that the glass cracks from a corner that is restrained by that aluminum (in about 10 years on average - totally destroying most of the themal performance package).
Thermal-gard windows use a form of flexible silicon seal between each layer of glass, and then a butly seal around the outer edges of the glass pack. No hard metal touches the glass. If pressure is put on the glass - say from a blow - it is transmitted to the soft silicone seal which flexes. Tempered break resistant float glass on a flexible shock absorbing mounting.... can take quite the blow before it will break. This is way harder than what most windows break at.... and you''ve got three layers to go through..... Most thieves give it one hard whack (which normally bounces off without breaking the first layer) and decide that their are easier targets. Of course, a determined person can get through all three layers. But, it is a lot more difficult than an ordinary window.
As far as escape from the inside in the case of a fire. These windows are quite easy to open from the inside.
And here is the link... For decades this was considered, and I think still is "America''s #1 Insulated Replacement Window." A highly energy efficient window (as good as it gets)- that is also easy to use, easy to clean, and inately very secure (about as good as it gets from a security standpoint). But, not cheap (as in - you have to pay for what you get).
http://www.thermal-gard.com/
Note my comments above are for the Conserver series. I understand that the 500-600 series is a lower cost window developed for the new construction market by the new owners. I am not sure what features they cut, and I don''t really want to know either.
Oh, if you think the windows are good.... I''d love to see a thief get through a "Defend Door" as they expanded into nice looking home security doors as well (although I have seen other nice security doors on the market).
As for the windows that Storm linked. OK, they are constructed from a break proof glass. I did not dig into their features enough to figure out how the glass is replaced, what kinds of locks and if they can easily be jimmeyed, and how the frame is constructed and if it can be jimmeyed. Of course, I doubt that they are making any great claims on energy efficiency.
My suggestion - if you are looking for windows. Unless you actually need bullet proof glass... or are in an area that people routinly have windows broken in by smash and grabs... that the Thermal-Gard home windows (Conserver series) are essentially as good as you can get, from a long standing national company with a truely excellent reputation. Note that the conserver series is only sold as installed units as the installation needs to be done right. Oh yeh, these people will want you to sit through a 2 hour presentation too... (3 or more if you have lots of questions). May I suggest a good bowl of popcorn... It''s worth the show...
Some people just install these on the first floor with defend doors....
I will address another time other aspects of home security. But the real key is to install or build something good enough to just keep most of them out. Thermal-Gard windows do that - and give you great energy efficiency to boot.
Perry
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