Thoughts on This Sapphire

[faithis1991]

Hi all,

SO and I are interested in purchasing a loose padparadscha for my engagement ring and have been looking at stores both online and in person. This week we popped into a local jeweler and she showed us this sapphire.



It’s somewhat difficult to tell against my skin but it shifts from a light peach at the top to orange at the bottom. Size specs: 2.17 cts, 8.19mm x 6.80mm cushion cut

She told us her vendor did not indicate that the stone was unheated (she thinks it is heated) and that it is not a certified padparadscha.

Three questions:
1) Is this BE infused? I have no clue that the tell-tale signs are and I haven’t asked yet but will ask in my follow up email if you all suspect that it is...
2) Is it insane for us to pay the asking price of $4500 for a heated peach/maybe-padparadscha sapphire? I’ve negotiated the price down a bit already. However, I’ve seen other pink sapphires with similar size specs online for up to $1K cheaper but they don’t have the color performance this one does. And I’m a big fan of the color shift and sunset look. Example of similar size: https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-pink-13-502
3) Does this look like a potential padparadscha to you? Should I consider getting it graded post-purchase to keep the price down?

Thanks in advance!

Faith

 

[voce]

Hi Faith, this does look like a potential padparadscha to me. I think if you love the color, you should get a lab to inspect it for treatments before the purchase, not after.

So exciting for you to be picking out an engagement stone! Congratulations!

We need more folks like you and me who get colored stone engagement rings and be different.

 

[lovedogs]

I 100% agree that it needs to be inspected for treatments before purchase in order to be sure you are getting what you are promised (and not overpaying). I think it looks like a nice stone, but suspect the GemFix one would look nicer in person and you wouldn't be paying jeweler mark-up prices. But totally up to you!

 

[MissyBeaucoup]

I love the color! That sunset look is great on you!

I’d say get the color you like and don’t worry too much about the name. Prices can vary a lot with just a little change in the saturation of the color. In that price range I would want to know about any Be treatments though.

Congratulations!

 

[qubitasaurus]

Pads have a higher chance of being Be diffused -- if the vendor doesn't know whether it is treated (or the possible level of treatment) then I would not buy it until it was sent either to GIA or (preferably) AGL. There is no way you'll conclusively determine this by eyeballing the stone. There is zero chance any of us will reliably determine this based on the photos.

Sorry it looks lovely in your photos and sounds like a good buy, but not until it has a reputable lab report saying heat only or untreated.

Edit -- By the way the gemfix stone does not sound like a pad -- based on the description I would guess it is a parti sapphire. I like it though!

 

[Bron357]

The problem with Beryllium treatment, which often goes hand in hand with heat treatment, is that only a specialized lab can detect it.
It can’t be seen by a Loupe, microscope, spectrometer etc, only using very expensive laser analysis which only the big labs can do (AGL, GIA are two).
To be sure to avoid BE treatment you need to get an unheated sapphire.
If you are buying a heated sapphire with Padparadscha colours you should be very suspicious of BE treatment, the vendor may not disclose it or pretend not to know. It is a high probability that a heated sapphire in a Padparadscha colour was also BE treated at the same time, especially given the premium $$$ such a colour is worth.
Gem Vendors aren’t your “friend”, they are a business wanting to make money and unless you get lab verification of all or any treatments, who knows what you are being sold.
The vendor might say, it’s uncertified that’s why it’s the special price of $4,500 instead of $10,000. However, maybe it’s uncertified because the certificate will say evidence of BE treatment meaning it’s only worth $2,000?
On that basis, spending $4,500 on heated and possibly BE treated sapphire is risky and only you can decide if you want to buy such a gem.

 

[faithis1991]

Hi Faith, this does look like a potential padparadscha to me. I think if you love the color, you should get a lab to inspect it for treatments before the purchase, not after.

So exciting for you to be picking out an engagement stone! Congratulations!

We need more folks like you and me who get colored stone engagement rings and be different.

Thank you, I love colored gemstones. Is that your ring in your avi? It’s beautiful!

I 100% agree that it needs to be inspected for treatments before purchase in order to be sure you are getting what you are promised (and not overpaying). I think it looks like a nice stone, but suspect the GemFix one would look nicer in person and you wouldn't be paying jeweler mark-up prices. But totally up to you!

Yes, I keep going back and forth on the Gemfix too. I may need to order it and see it in person. Thanks for the tips!

 

[faithis1991]

Pads have a higher chance of being Be diffused -- if the vendor doesn't know whether it is treated (or the possible level of treatment) then I would not buy it until it was sent either to GIA or (preferably) AGL. There is no way you'll conclusively determine this by eyeballing the stone. There is zero chance any of us will reliably determine this based on the photos.

Sorry it looks lovely in your photos and sounds like a good buy, but not until it has a reputable lab report saying heat only or untreated.

Edit -- By the way the gemfix stone does not sound like a pad -- based on the description I would guess it is a parti sapphire. I like it though!

Yes, I’m totally fine with the Gemfix one not being a pad because the price is lower. I’d just hate to pay much more than that for a BE infused stone. I’m going to ask her about certification.

Edit: and by “that much” I mean 4500 for the original stone in question.

 

[voce]

Thank you, I love colored gemstones. Is that your ring in your avi? It’s beautiful!

Thanks, but my e-ring is a ruby ring with a diamond halo, which I try linking below.

I was originally shopping online with my fiancee for a sapphire e-ring, when we came across the ruby one that was perfect for me. The ring in my avatar was one I got myself after, since I wanted both a ruby and sapphire and had windfall tax refund money.

 

[faithis1991]

I love the color! That sunset look is great on you!

I’d say get the color you like and don’t worry too much about the name. Prices can vary a lot with just a little change in the saturation of the color. In that price range I would want to know about any Be treatments though.

Congratulations!

Thank you for the advice and well wishes

The problem with Beryllium treatment, which often goes hand in hand with heat treatment, is that only a specialized lab can detect it.
It can’t be seen by a Loupe, microscope, spectrometer etc, only using very expensive laser analysis which only the big labs can do (AGL, GIA are two).
To be sure to avoid BE treatment you need to get an unheated sapphire.
If you are buying a heated sapphire with Padparadscha colours you should be very suspicious of BE treatment, the vendor may not disclose it or pretend not to know. It is a high probability that a heated sapphire in a Padparadscha colour was also BE treated at the same time, especially given the premium $$$ such a colour is worth.
Gem Vendors aren’t your “friend”, they are a business wanting to make money and unless you get lab verification of all or any treatments, who knows what you are being sold.
The vendor might say, it’s uncertified that’s why it’s the special price of $4,500 instead of $10,000. However, maybe it’s uncertified because the certificate will say evidence of BE treatment meaning it’s only worth $2,000?
On that basis, spending $4,500 on heated and possibly BE treated sapphire is risky and only you can decide if you want to buy such a gem.

This is extremely helpful. You all have really given me a lot to think about!

At this point, do I ask to see existing certification and if there is none, do I ask her to send it off to be tested and incur that cost?

I think I saw that sapphire testing of that size was $150 by GIA and I’m fine with that.

 

[faithis1991]

Thanks, but my e-ring is a ruby ring with a diamond halo, which I try linking below.

I was originally shopping online with my fiancee for a sapphire e-ring, when we came across the ruby one that was perfect for me. The ring in my avatar was one I got myself after, since I wanted both a ruby and sapphire and had windfall tax refund money.

That Ruby is STUNNING! So lovely on you. At this point I only have diamond jewelry but I can tell this is the start of a long, beautiful, (and epensive) obsession for me.

 

[voce]

At this point, do I ask to see existing certification and if there is none, do I ask her to send it off to be tested and incur that cost?

I think I saw that sapphire testing of that size was $150 by GIA and I’m fine with that.

Yes, that's exactly what we are suggesting. $150 really isn't much compared to the price of the whole stone. Be advised, however, that GIA still doesn't label sapphires as padparadschas officially, due to the label historically used to mean different things. AGL does classify sapphires as padparadschas, but with GIA you'd probably get orangish-pink or pinkish-orange on the certificate.

Personally, I don't need a lab to tell me it's a pad in coloring if I like the color myself. What's more important is to make sure it's untreated (price premium over heated) or heat-enhanced only, and not beryllium diffused, which weakens the stone. We all want our sentimental engagement rings to last forever instead of deteriorating over time.

 

[voce]

That Ruby is STUNNING! So lovely on you. At this point I only have diamond jewelry but I can tell this is the start of a long, beautiful, (and epensive) obsession for me.

Thank you for the compliment! I also wasn't really into colored stones, or even jewelry at all until we started looking for the e-ring. I just knew that I wasn't good (initially) at identifying real vs MMD/simulants, and I wanted something different from most people in my e-ring, thus the decision to go sapphire. Since then, colored gemstones has also become my expensive new hobby/obsession.

 

[faithis1991]

Yes, that's exactly what we are suggesting. $150 really isn't much compared to the price of the whole stone. Be advised, however, that GIA still doesn't label sapphires as padparadschas officially, due to the label historically used to mean different things. AGL does classify sapphires as padparadschas, but with GIA you'd probably get orangish-pink or pinkish-orange on the certificate.

Personally, I don't need a lab to tell me it's a pad in coloring if I like the color myself. What's more important is to make sure it's untreated (price premium over heated) or heat-enhanced only, and not beryllium diffused, which weakens the stone. We all want our sentimental engagement rings to last forever instead of deteriorating over time.

Good point on the strength of the stone! I’m emailing the jeweler now and will keep you all updated.

 

[FinewaterGems]

Yes, that's exactly what we are suggesting. $150 really isn't much compared to the price of the whole stone. Be advised, however, that GIA still doesn't label sapphires as padparadschas officially, due to the label historically used to mean different things. AGL does classify sapphires as padparadschas, but with GIA you'd probably get orangish-pink or pinkish-orange on the certificate.

GIA will label the Color description of a padparadscha sapphires as "pinkish orange" or "orangish pink", but the Variety will be shown as "Natural Paparadscha Sapphire". I've had several pads identified as such from GIA (as well as several from AGL).

 

[voce]

@FinewaterGems Would "Natural Paparadscha Sapphire" also show up in the GIA report under "Variety" if the sapphire was heat-enhanced?

 

[FinewaterGems]

@FinewaterGems Would "Natural Paparadscha Sapphire" also show up in the GIA report under "Variety" if the sapphire was heat-enhanced?

Yes

 

[faithis1991]

Yes

This is great information. We’re also looking at your gorgeous selection!

 

[voce]

@FinewaterGems OK thanks for the correction and clarification!

 

[peacechick]

I won’t comment about the pad stuff as there are more knowledgeable people posting here already than me. However, I would point out that that there seems to be a fair amount of windowing on the stone that you are looking at. Windowing refers to when you can see through the stone to your finger below. It is caused by the stone not being well cut (you can read the “Buying a CS” thread for more details).

If there is a small window, setting the ring will usually close it up but for that gem, it will most likely still look like your second picture after being set. It might not bother you now, but if you develop an interest in gemstones, it may bug you down the road. The Gemfix stone is an example of good cutting where all the light reflects back up through the stone, so there is no window.

 

[faithis1991]

I won’t comment about the pad stuff as there are more knowledgeable people posting here already than me. However, I would point out that that there seems to be a fair amount of windowing on the stone that you are looking at. Windowing refers to when you can see through the stone to your finger below. It is caused by the stone not being well cut (you can read the “Buying a CS” thread for more details).

If there is a small window, setting the ring will usually close it up but for that gem, it will most likely still look like your second picture after being set. It might not bother you now, but if you develop an interest in gemstones, it may bug you down the road. The Gemfix stone is an example of good cutting where all the light reflects back up through the stone, so there is no window.

I hasn’t noticed that but I guess I wasn’t really looking for windowing. I’ll read up more on it in the thread. Thank you!

And thank you all, this is tremendously helpful!

 

[MissyBeaucoup]

Another thought. Sometimes you can find a great value by going with a stone that is just outside of “trade ideal”. Padparascha sapphires are selling at a premium now, even though the term is not really well defined. It used to mean only a pastel stone, but there are darker pink-orange stones that some might call Padparascha now. Since you like the sunset colors and they look splendid on you, you might push the envelope a little and look at what’s being called “orange sapphire” with some pink in it (and not leaning too far out into brown or gray). Lotus + sunset.

 

[Luce]

Hi Faithis,

Just popping in to say that the color looks beautiful on you!!!!!

 

[Acinom]

Fabulous colour for your skintone. With the help of the experts you will find your dreamstone soon

 

[faithis1991]

Another thought. Sometimes you can find a great value by going with a stone that is just outside of “trade ideal”. Padparascha sapphires are selling at a premium now, even though the term is not really well defined. It used to mean only a pastel stone, but there are darker pink-orange stones that some might call Padparascha now. Since you like the sunset colors and they look splendid on you, you might push the envelope a little and look at what’s being called “orange sapphire” with some pink in it (and not leaning too far out into brown or gray). Lotus + sunset.

That’s a great point! No repose from the jeweler yet on the stone in question but this tip gives me wider parameters now and will hopefully help in my search. I appreciate that.

Hi Faithis,

Just popping in to say that the color looks beautiful on you!!!!!

Fabulous colour for your skintone. With the help of the experts you will find your dreamstone soon

You all are too kind! Your inputs have been so amazing and have affirmed my love for CS! Hopefully I can find something soon...

 

[Anne111]

However, maybe it’s uncertified because the certificate will say evidence of BE treatment meaning it’s only worth $2,000?

I seen BE treated sapphires go for far less, more like $100/ct. The color is completely artificial, not enhanced but basically painted on surface.

 

[Seaglow]

I seen BE treated sapphires go for far less, more like $100/ct. The color is completely artificial, not enhanced but basically painted on surface.

Titanium diffusion in blue color is quite thin but BE can penetrate more into the sapphire and can be permanent and go all the way throughout the entire stone.

 

[faithis1991]

I seen BE treated sapphires go for far less, more like $100/ct. The color is completely artificial, not enhanced but basically painted on surface.

Titanium diffusion in blue color is quite thin but BE can penetrate more into the sapphire and can be permanent and go all the way throughout the entire stone.

Thanks, all! Yes, I don't want to overpay for a BE stone. this is great info!

The jeweler has come back with a photo of an AGL sapphire brief certification. She said that her vendor did not originally send it with the stone so there was some delay getting it. The brief indicates the following
date: 8 December 2015
identification: Natural Orange Sapphire
measurements: 8.18 x 6.80 x 4.16
carat weight: 2.17 cts
shape / style: cushion modified mixed cut
color: brownish pinkish orange
standard enhancement: heat
additional enhancement: none
comments: sapphires are commonly heated to modify their color and appearance
color stability: excellent

I know that the Gem Brief is a lower-cost certification. Does the AGL Gem brief normally indicate BE treatment or would we need a higher tier of certification for that?

- faith

 

[ShinyPink]

The AGL brief will say it's heated, but put a disclaimer on it saying "additional analytical testing would be necessary..." to determine diffusion treatment.

 

[faithis1991]

The AGL brief will say it's heated, but put a disclaimer on it saying "additional analytical testing would be necessary..." to determine diffusion treatment.

Great. Thank you for that information!