Thoughts on this Unheated Montana Sapphire???

[SMToast]

Hello!

I'm in the process of (potentially) purchasing the following stone for an engagement ring and I was wondering if you had any insights on it? The reason I ask is that I have been getting mixed messages about the truthfulness of heated versus unheated Montana Sapphires and it would be great to learn more.

There is also a somewhat large inclusion in there, and I am curious about whether or not the pricing is reasonable at just under 6400 USD for a 1.62 CT 'natural' unheated Montana Sapphire.

My future fiance absolutely loves Montana Sapphires, especially these darker teal ones.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Cerulean]

I find that really quite expensive, especially given the size/color, and it even looks hazy...I would personally pass on this for sure, but other more expert-level PSers may chime in soon. The photos are also really poor IMO so it is hard to even make out the cut or too much at all, especially against that dark grey background.

Do you mind sharing photos of your "dream stone" and other criteria you were hoping to achieve? What kind of setting are you after? There is nothing wrong with a deeper color, but for instance if you want a bezel set or a halo, it will appear darker.

Are you open to other regions, like Australian sapphires, which have a lot of appealing teal tones? Just curious.

Some vendors I might check out to get inspired:
Gemfix
Finewater
Precision gem
Mastercut gems
Blaze n gems
Earth's treasury

 

[Cerulean]

I have no idea what shapes you like, but I love the deeper teal color on this one, but it is trillion which is a very specific look:

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-montana-12-2123

I think these teal ones are all much nicer, but they are from Madagascar - again, not sure what you like (ie. the last example is more "parti" or multi color, with zones of yellow and teal, which is a particular look that not everyone cares for

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-fancy-15-1428

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-fancy-15-1424

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-fancy-15-1423

I am also not sure what you mean by the truthfulness of heated vs/ unheated - but I believe it is down to personal preference. An unheated stone that is trade ideal in color is considered more valuable. But some people could care less about whether a stone is heated.

 

[JackTrick]

Seems expensive, especially if the inclusion is visible in the hand. I tend to see more prices ranging from $1000-$2000/ct.

 

[Niffler75]

@SMToast I'm sorry that seems really expensive! Are you on Instagram? There are some fantastic options from vendors on there.

 

[paragon1234]

$6400 for that stone is daylight robbery imo.

 

[paragon1234]

Here are some alternatives:

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www.etsy.com

This item is unavailable - Etsy

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1 carat Montana Sapphire Blue (Heated) | Stag and Finch

This heated Sapphire is an exceptional example of the famous Blue-Green color found in Montana Sapphires. It turned out beautifully, and I'm extremely happy with the way the color flashes when it's rocked in the light. I cut this Sapphire into a modified "Hexbar Oval", designed by Robert...

www.stagandfinch.com

Be prepared for it to darken upon setting, and to probably look black in the evenings indoors.

 

[SMToast]

Hi!

I was also thinking this was expensive, and stones from the same vendor and similar unheated, natural colours get even more expensive (over 10000 USD). I have looked at other vendors as well and have seen much larger unheated stones for far less, so I guess that's where the red flags are coming from...

I've uploaded a video to youtube as I cannot upload a video here:

There is also a better video on their website: https://www.americutgems.com/product/divine-radiance-blue-green-montana-sapphire-cushion-1-62cts/

A little more about it. I was hoping to be able to get the stone from North America because I was able to trace the origin to the mine and review the mine's practices. I understand that this will come at a bit of a premium and am willing to pay for that, but obviously not an outrageous amount...

The stone is precision cut by robots, and is trademarked as an All American Sapphire, from Rock Creek. I'm expecting this has something to do with the price? I've also attached the cut angles.

What I like about it is the crazy colour shift in the light, and I do like the parti-colour shifts but when I got the videos for them they weren't a deeper colour that I expected. This 1.62 does have some minor yellow colour to it (probably due to that inclusion) that appeals.

Is this...still daylight robbery?!

Thank you again!

 

[elrohwen]

I would pass. The stone is included and looks hazy, and lacks brilliance. The price is crazy too.

Are you set on unheated? Almost all Montanas are heated to increase clarity and color because the deposits contain a lot of rutile inclusions and color tends towards gray. I think you’ll find a much prettier stone if you go with a heated one and many more options.

I would take a look at Gemfix and Earth’s Treasury. Their stones are also precision cut and have much more brilliance than this one. It’s also very common for Montanas to color shift so that shouldn’t increase price.

 

[SMToast]

Thank you for the comments, this is quite helpful.

Oh and, I should also add that All American's are mined, heated (where applicable), and cut all in the USA. I'm not sure if that is a factor as well?

 

[Cerulean]

Jeff at earths treasury describes visiting some of the mines himself, and also having Rock Creek sapphires. His stones are also precision cut. I’d ask Jeff more if you want to know!

Gemfix also describes their stones as ethically mined, conflict free, American cut and they also have precision cut stones.

Again, these qualities you are describing from this other vendor are not unattainable elsewhere at a reasonable price for a much prettier stone.

If you like parti...

This one is so cool but kind of funky
https://www.earthstreasury.com/prod...al-yellow-tricolored-montana-sapphire-heated/

another Bi color
https://www.earthstreasury.com/product/2-78-carat-deep-blue-green-bicolored-montana-sapphire-heated/

teal/ blue green
https://www.earthstreasury.com/product/1-57-carat-rich-teal-blue-montana-sapphire/ (unheated)

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-montana-12-2063 (unheated)

https://www.earthstreasury.com/product/1-60-carat-teal-green-bicolored-montana-sapphire/ (unheated)

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-montana-12-2004 (heated, but beautiful cut and very pretty with lots of brilliance)

 

[Cerulean]

this description is really...yikes

 

[elrohwen]

Since Montanas are mined in the US, they are all (?) cut in the US as well and as far as I know all ethically mined. Most precision cut as well. So there is a lot of inventory for what you're looking for as long as you are open to heated stones. The one you found isn't a great example.

 

[elrohwen]

Here are a couple options from Earth's Treasury (just from the first page of results for the approx carat weight and color you're looking for - there are many many more). All less than $4k and I consider them a more pricey vendor. Still much much cheaper than the stone you're looking at

1.45-Carat Teal Green Montana Sapphire (Heated) - Earth's Treasury

A gorgeous teal green heated Montana sapphire in our custom “Helena” brilliant oval design, 1.45 carats.

www.earthstreasury.com

1.80-Carat Teal Green Montana Sapphire (Heated) - Earth's Treasury

A beautiful bright green-blue heated Montana sapphire in our custom “Serendipity” brilliant oval design, 1.80 carats.

www.earthstreasury.com

1.51-Carat Teal Green Montana Sapphire (Heated) - Earth's Treasury

A lovely teal green heated Montana sapphire in our custom “Serendipity” brilliant oval design, 1.51 carats.

www.earthstreasury.com

 

[SMToast]

Hello,

These are are all great suggestions thank you. I have to stick with companies that will ship to Canada (gemfix does not unfortunately at higher price points). The unheated part appeals to me (us) simply because the colour is natural, and was not modified. I know this is probably trivial in many respects, but it makes the stone seem that much more special I guess. I liked what I saw on Earth's Treasury so thank you for that reference, and for Stag and Finch =

In terms of the vendor I was working with, I asked why it was so expensive (as well as the others quotes I received) and have not really received a clear answer. I think the pricing is coming down to the jeweler's mark-up which based on other requests is making a lot of sense (ie: a GIA certification request to verify the untreated claim was priced at 300 USD...not sure if this is normal either based on shipping but the GIA pricing for a single coloured stone is a small fraction of this based on the GIA pricing chart).

Anyways, there are a lot of red flags here and you all helped confirm them! I'll be keeping a watchful eye out with the vendors you provided. Hopefully I'll be able to track down the perfect teal(ish) coloured stone!

Very happy this forum exists!

 

[elrohwen]

Good luck and come back to show us what you pick! I just bought a Montana sapphire and I’m in love with them.

 

[Skyjems]

Since Montanas are mined in the US, they are all (?) cut in the US as well and as far as I know all ethically mined. Most precision cut as well. So there is a lot of inventory for what you're looking for as long as you are open to heated stones. The one you found isn't a great example.

This is absolutely NOT correct!

Most Montana sapphire rough is sold to cutters in Sri Lanka and Thailand, I am fairly positive that there are enough cutters in the USA to consume all of the Montana Rough mined each year.

Although a lot of larger gems are cut in the USA, the vast majority are not.

 

[Skyjems]

The reason that Montana Sapphire pricing is high is because people are buying into the "ethically sourced" thing, and a few vendors have pushed the prices sky high. It seems that many young people getting married in the US are caught up in this false hype. What makes a Montana sapphire more ethically mined than one from Africa or Sri Lanka? I'm sure environmentalist in Montana are not happy about the destruction to the land as the soil is scrapped away to expose the gravel.

As far as buying the rough, Montana Sapphire is one of the least expensive rough stones to buy. The Umba Sapphire rough is about 2 to 3 times the price of Montana rough, Madagascar sapphire rough is about 4 times the cost as is material from Nigeria.

Many or most of the smaller Montana stones are not cut in the US, but rather sent to Asia to be cut. The larger stones for the most part are cut in the US.

I also want to clarify some things here:

1. Ethical mining: Although mining practices of Sri Lanka are extremely ethical, the same can not be said of many other places. I have a very good video interview with Warren Boyd from Potentate on my website (which I am not allowed to link to) that explains a lot of the environmental steps taken by Potentate who mine more Montana rough than every other miner in Montana combined.

As for 'how clean' they are and what locals think, you can go trout fishing in the crystal clear water of Rock Creek 500 yards from the mining site (I don't think this is possible anywhere else) and for the most part locals welcome the mining and economic activity it brings.

2. Montana Rough Price: If we are comparing apples to apples, Montana rough is EXTREMELY expensive! Clean nice blues or green blues that are bright sell for huge prices!

The problem is that the vast majority of the rough that makes it to market is poor quality gravels that we would be thrown back into the pit in Sri Lanka.

 

[elrohwen]

This is absolutely NOT correct!

Most Montana sapphire rough is sold to cutters in Sri Lanka and Thailand, I am fairly positive that there are enough cutters in the USA to consume all of the Montana Rough mined each year.

Although a lot of larger gems are cut in the USA, the vast majority are not.

Good to know! All of the vendors I shopped were US cutters, but they are not all of the cutters. Still, there is enough inventory among the US cutters that I'm sure the OP can find something better.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Sapphire mining in Montana



Tsavorite mine in Tanzania, underground.



Which has more impact on the environment?

 

[PrecisionGem]

I also want to clarify some things here:

2. Montana Rough Price: If we are comparing apples to apples, Montana rough is EXTREMELY expensive! Clean nice blues or green blues that are bright sell for huge prices!

This just isn't true. Sure a really supper large clean top color Montana will be priced similar to comparable material from other places. But 95% of what I see on websites selling cut stones in excess of $1000 per ct is material that is a fraction of the price of better material from other locations.

Here's one I cut that finished up over 2 cts. better than eye clean, and the rough was $20 per ct.

**edited by moderator, please do not link to your own products per the policy**

No way I could buy similar rough from Madagascar for that price.

 

[Skyjems]

Regarding pricing: One stone, ten stones or even one hundred stones is simply not enough to make a judgement about rough prices.

Did you 'win' with that 2ct? ABSOLUTELY! If I got that gem from a $100 piece of rough I would be dancing in the streets! That said, there is pretty serious zoning in it and zoned rough can yield poor results, obviously you are a very good cutter (I looked at other stones on your site, very impressive!), but most cutters wouldn't be able to get that kind of gem out of that piece of rough.

BUT: I am going to digress because there is no 'rap sheet' for rough sapphire, so this debate could go on forever with neither of us being able to 'prove' our point any better than the other.

Regarding Environmental Impact: Although quarry mining isn't pretty to look at, it allows the miner to use no/very little chemicals, it usually also means that less water is used during the process. So although it's unsightly to some, Sapphire Mining in Montana is done under the strictest rules of any commercial sapphire mine I have ever known of and has almost no negative impact on the environment.

I would note that with Potentate/Rock Creek in particular, that area was owned by someone who had already clear cut the land for lumber, so they haven't had to cut a single tree larger than a small bush so far.

 

[PieAreSquared]

@SMToast, sorry this thread seems to have taken a detour!

If you read a little history on Montana sapphire mining, every previous mining operation failed due to extremely high overhead and low profits. Maybe this will no longer be the case since (some) people are finally starting to appreciate them on their own merits, and because of this demand, prices have risen. Still, the market will only bear so much, I’m sure eventually a sweet spot will be found.

But as you can see, there are some who still feel for whatever reason that Montana sapphires aren’t “real sapphires” and shouldn’t be priced as if they were!

I also strongly disagree that underground mining in Africa has less impact on the environment than alluvial mining in Montana, not even talking about the danger involved to miners. Coal mining is also done underground, just because its impact is less visible doesn’t make it better.

As far as environmental impact in Montana sapphire mining, see the last 2 paragraphs: https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/summer-2017-montana-alluvial-deposits.

I don’t find this to be “false hype”, to me this is definitely worth the extra costs involved. I guess that means I am “buying into the ethically sourced thing” Yes. Yes I am.

Best of luck in your search!

 

[voce]

@Skyjems I believe what you say about environmental impact at Potentate/Rock Creek, but I don't agree with what you think is true regarding pricing of Montana sapphire rough.

Should we support ethical mining? Absolutely! Should we call a 1.62ct unheated Montana sapphire inexpensive at $6400? Nope, absolutely not!

$6400 for 1.62ct works out to $3950/ct. For a dark teal color that is far from trade ideal. Considering--there's "trade ideal color" Madagascar unheated sapphire selling for $4000/ct. I personally think that a sizeable unheated Montana sapphire of that quality of clarity is rare, but the particular color featured here is not in particularly high demand, compared to cornflower blue, and in my opinion it is not simply enough for a gem to be rare to justify a high price, but there should also be high demand, where buyers "bid up" the price.

I think that, being in Canada, you have a different price on Montana sapphire rough.

One of the gem cutters I bought from last year, Dan Stair Jr, went on a trip to Montana to prospect his own rough. I had bought some garnets from him around the same time, and he revealed to me that other vendors in the trade have threatened him with emails because they price their Montana sapphires so much higher than his. For a vendor like Gemfix with a brick-and-mortar presence, or Finewater Gems with regular gem buying travel planned, I think they should be able to charge higher prices to cover their expenses. But when you're talking about vendors pricing over ONE ORDER OF MAGNITUDE for a Montana sapphire compared to another vendor, as with the $6400 example, I would definitely call that overpriced. I think that magnitude of difference is better explained by buyers willing to pay for the hype of popularity and ethical sourcing, than by only the cost of the rough or the yield of the rough.

 

[Skyjems]

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to comment on specific stones, so although I have an opinion about the gem that was originally in question, I am not allowed to share it.

My comments were in response to Gene's assertion that Montana sapphire rough is cheaper than other rough, this is simply not true when comparing apples to apples.

 

[arkieb1]

Why would anyone pay $6400+ for a meeh coloured sapphire regardless of origin? That is the true question the original poster should be asking themselves....

I could probably find you a far more "ethically mined" one from Australian mines the same colour for a fraction of that price.

 

[Garnetgirl]

@SMToast Canadian here -
I purchased a stone from Earth’s Treasury a couple of years ago. At the time, they did ship to Canada. And their service was excellent!

 

[SMToast]

@SMToast, sorry this thread seems to have taken a detour!

I wouldn't call it a detour versus getting to the heart of the issue I guess. Criteria like the environmental impact of the mine is important to me and will (and should) continue to be of increasing importance. I work in the environmental mining field and understand mining impacts and how they can be mitigated (as well as the added cost involved which is SUBSTANTIAL depending on the operation). Outside of the region's particular regulatory influence, it comes down to consumers choosing to pay a premium for a product they feel (whether accurate or not) is mined 'ethically.' Knowing they are cut within the region is also pretty important to me as a consumer, as I do not see any logic in shipping tiny stones across the world to be modified, only to be sent right back to the same market.

It isn't hype so much as a consumer choice that can be admittedly abused, as may be the predicament I find myself in.

I guess the added complication here is the real value of an unheated vs. heated stone, which is just the illogical part of me that likes the idea of a relatively unaltered stone. Plus, the colour itself looks pretty great and is what I am looking for. Unfortunately the clarity and brilliance is admittedly pretty lackluster...

Anyways, now I'm digressing and ranting. Thank you again for all this info it really is fascinating.

 

[PieAreSquared]

It isn't hype so much as a consumer choice that can be admittedly abused

Well said.

Working in the environmental mining field, you know more about it than all of us put together!

As far as heating, I had it explained to me once, "ALL stones are heated -inside the earth- while forming, some additionally afterwards". Heating is done to improve color and clarity and if you find the color and clarity you like in an unheated stone, so much the better for you.

To me color is king and heat doesn't bother me, but that is just my personal opinion, if you prefer heated in the earth only, for whatever reason or instinct, then that is what you should get. IMHO.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to comment on specific stones, so although I have an opinion about the gem that was originally in question, I am not allowed to share it.

My comments were in response to Gene's assertion that Montana sapphire rough is cheaper than other rough, this is simply not true when comparing apples to apples.

David, I don't know if you buy rough or not, but I have been buying rough for 20 years, and have purchased over 1 million in rough in that time. I have found when comparing apples to apples that Montana rough is less expensive than most other sapphire rough. There was a time about 10 years ago when "The Guide", had pricing for Montana Sapphires, and the wholesale prices they showed were much less for Montana material (except Yugo) than other comparable sapphires. These new inflated prices are something new for the past maybe 5 or 6 years. It's not across the board with all cutters or dealers however. I think some people have found a niche that people getting e-rings are willing to pay high prices for these Montana stones.