Tiffany takes eBay to court

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/15/2007 9:19:20 AM
Author: erica k
speaking of fake Tiffany rings, i was browsing eBay listings and came across this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180179833586&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us


i dunno, but there''s something a little off about the ring. i thought Tiffany three-stones had those flying buttresses linking the heads to the shank? and i can''t believe Tiffany would mismatch stone colors in this way.

this particular seller offers a 3 day money-back guarantee (lots of fine print) and an NGL certificate for the ring. maybe the ring is a fake but the seller is hoping most customers will accept the guarantee as an article of good faith? of maybe the ring isn''t a fake and the joke is on me? (note: i have no interest in buying this ring, but i''m interested in the issue of copyright laws).

listings like these make me only want to buy from signed pieces or pearlmans on eBay.

This is actually a pretty good example of part of the problem.

Notice a few things about this advertisement:

1) They don’t say it’s made by Tiffany. They say it’s signed Tiffany and company. These are not the same things. The only thing they say in the ad as being original to Tiffany is the box.
2) The ‘certificate’ doesn’t say it’s made by Tiffany either. They say it’s set in an original Tiffany mounting.
3) The ‘retail value’ is nonsense, of course, but they also say that it’s a round brilliant cut with a small culet. This doesn’t match either the description in the ad or the item in the photograph.
4) Actually, they are only giving 24 hours for a refund, not 3 days. It would be extremely difficult for a non-expert to arrange for expert authentication services and, even if they did, what''s gained by it?

Again, all they actually say came from Tiffany''s is the mounting and the box. This is possibly correct but does that make this ad legit? The headline reads: "ESTATE~TIFFANY & CO~2.64CT DIAMOND CERTIFIED RING".

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

This is just one lawsuit of several hundred against ebay.
The biggest problem is that auction law has always been state and local laws.
The problem as with many things on the Internet is deciding who has jurisdiction and whose laws apply.
The isp shielding demands that a reasonable effort be made and if ebay meets that or not will be a huge effort that has not been tried in court, it is even debatable if they meet the eligibility requirements in the first place.
So you have 3 issues with very little case law on the national level so its going to be a very messy suit that is not going anywhere fast unless they settle.

 

[denverappraiser]

Neil,

I morally agree with your argument. However, a kidney, machine gun and one's virginity (using your examples) are illegal in themselves. Authentic Tiffany jewelery is not. In that sense it is extremely difficult for eBay to verify the items authenticity in the thousands (probably even millions, I'm not sure) of daily auctions that take place. eBay does not have the capacity to do such a thing nevermind the properly trained employees to know a counterfeit from a real item. For this reason it's nearly impossible to know which auctions are for fake items and which are for real. Perhaps they could require a copy of an original receipt to sell an item but even then you could probably use one original receipt to sell 100 copies of an item over and over again. It's a much more complicated issue than simply 'They just prefer to ignore copyright violations while enforcing against other sorts of illegal sales.' Illegal is different than counterfeit items of legal merchandise. I'd like to see eBay take additional steps so that I could buy authentic items with peace of mind through them, but I doubt the solution is anywhere in the near future. It's simply too complex. Hope I'm wrong

Selling both guns and sex is legal in the United States although local laws can and do regulate them. Although the sale of body parts is illegal in the US, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are places where ebay does business that it’s not. Ebay has all kinds of things that are forbidden ranging from the examples I gave to liquor, cigarettes, prescription drugs, services by ebay’s competitors, pornography and ebay usernames. All are legal (unlike the selling of counterfeit merchandise) and ebay chooses to regulate traffic in them because it serves their purposes to regulate them. I’m not criticizing them for that, it’s their business and they can forbid sellers of whatever they like, but it clearly demonstrates that it is possible. I don’t have a logistical solution for them but blaming it on the dropoff stores because they are independent businesses is bogus. If one of those stores insisted on selling things that ebay didn’t approve of they would quickly find themselves crushed out of business by being banned from the site. That’s a corporate death sentence with no right of appeal. Saying that this power doesn’t result in significant control over them is preposterous.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[CaptAubrey]

Date: 11/15/2007 12:16:07 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Ebay has all kinds of things that are forbidden ranging from the examples I gave to liquor, cigarettes, prescription drugs, services by ebay’s competitors, pornography and ebay usernames. All are legal (unlike the selling of counterfeit merchandise) and ebay chooses to regulate traffic in them because it serves their purposes to regulate them. I’m not criticizing them for that, it’s their business and they can forbid sellers of whatever they like, but it clearly demonstrates that it is possible. I don’t have a logistical solution for them but blaming it on the dropoff stores because they are independent businesses is bogus. If one of those stores insisted on selling things that ebay didn’t approve of they would quickly find themselves crushed out of business by being banned from the site.

This is the crux of the dispute. Ebay could take certain steps that would largely shut down counterfeit auctions, but it would mean fundamentally changing their business model. They could do it by simply banning auctions based on registered trademarks except by the trademark owners, but think how much money that would cost them.

 

[erica k]

Date: 11/15/2007 10:16:40 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 11/15/2007 9:19:20 AM

Author: erica k

speaking of fake Tiffany rings, i was browsing eBay listings and came across this:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180179833586&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us



i dunno, but there''s something a little off about the ring. i thought Tiffany three-stones had those flying buttresses linking the heads to the shank? and i can''t believe Tiffany would mismatch stone colors in this way.


this particular seller offers a 3 day money-back guarantee (lots of fine print) and an NGL certificate for the ring. maybe the ring is a fake but the seller is hoping most customers will accept the guarantee as an article of good faith? of maybe the ring isn''t a fake and the joke is on me? (note: i have no interest in buying this ring, but i''m interested in the issue of copyright laws).


listings like these make me only want to buy from signed pieces or pearlmans on eBay.

This is actually a pretty good example of part of the problem.


Notice a few things about this advertisement:


1) They don’t say it’s made by Tiffany. They say it’s signed Tiffany and company. These are not the same things. The only thing they say in the ad as being original to Tiffany is the box.

2) The ‘certificate’ doesn’t say it’s made by Tiffany either. They say it’s set in an original Tiffany mounting.

3) The ‘retail value’ is nonsense, of course, but they also say that it’s a round brilliant cut with a small culet. This doesn’t match either the description in the ad or the item in the photograph.

4) Actually, they are only giving 24 hours for a refund, not 3 days. It would be extremely difficult for a non-expert to arrange for expert authentication services and, even if they did, what''s gained by it?


Again, all they actually say came from Tiffany''s is the mounting and the box. This is possibly correct but does that make this ad legit? The headline reads: ''ESTATE~TIFFANY & CO~2.64CT DIAMOND CERTIFIED RING''.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

you''re so right, neil. they are very tricky in their wording! i''ve noticed that there are several eBay sellers of ''tiffany'' jewelry who offer a ridiculously short refund period.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/15/2007 3:24:43 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
...
They could do it by simply banning auctions based on registered trademarks except by the trademark owners, but think how much money that would cost them.

That would exclude authorized dealers selling authentic, as well as consumers selling used authentic.

 

[CaptAubrey]

Date: 11/15/2007 6:20:05 PM
Author: stebbo

That would exclude authorized dealers selling authentic, as well as consumers selling used authentic.

Yes, thus the "fundamentally change their business model." I didn't say it would be fair, or profitable, just that they could do it.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/15/2007 10:16:40 AM
Author: denverappraiser

This is actually a pretty good example of part of the problem.


Notice a few things about this advertisement:
...
...
...

My guess is with this one is that (at best) the original round (RB or OEC?) was swapped out to the absolute cheapest thing they could find. There''s no way Tiffany would sell 51% depth.

National Gemological Laboratories--the only place I''ve ever seen this mob is on ebay. The classic symptoms - trusty official and up-sizing company name (I wonder how many ''laboratories'' they actually have?), no contact details listed, 5 second generic logo from one of those business card vending machines, generic company name font, illegible signature (which looks made up), no name accompanying it and no gemologist qualifications.

Just no professional presence at all, except for the pad of generic holograms they purchased (from ebay) and the (I''m sure illegally) reproduced GIA color and clarity scales.

I bet the diamond''s as good as an I color only because the occasional browser might know that''s the worse Tiffany sell.

A past ''Tiffany'' item from the same seller even claimed the original paperwork remains with the past owner, but I guess you can''t get away with that line too often.

No picture of the Platinum hallmark which I''m sure they would have shown if it was there.

And this is a 99.1% power seller. Obviously past purchasers never find out or realize that a negative feedback hurts their rating a lot more than a power sellers. That or they''re just happy to get their money back and make mutual agreements not to neg each other.

I love the bit about "this lovely estate ring will truly light up your fingers, as well as your husband''s love life". Maybe I''ll make a bid.