Title of Dr. for MD vs. Phd (or other doctorate degrees)

[Haven]

bootsiekin--Don''t forget JDs! Lawyers are doctors, too! And EdDs, and DPTs (physical therapy) and DBAs (business administration)! Oh, and PsyDs! Actually, I know a few PsyDs who insist on being called "Dr." all the time.

Totally off topic--Is your avatar kitty named Bootsie? I had a kitty named Bootsie for 18 years, and I called her "Bootsiekin." She recently passed away, and I ALWAYS think of her when I see your avatar. She was a tuxedo kitty, too.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 3/2/2009 6:59:50 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/2/2009 7:26:18 AM

Author: allycat0303

I have to agree with Julie.




Actually let''s be simple. I don`t want anyone calling me Dr. EVER. That and signing your name with all the initials on it, I didn`t get my degrees to have other people recognize it.

Haha.. this is so funny ally, because I feel the same way! The only problem with this, is after I introduce myself to a patient as First name Last name, they think I am their nurse for the rest of time. But seriously, this IS such a silly issue. I don''t know too many (normal) people to whom this is a big deal.


The other problem now is that I am sooo weirded out by anyone calling me Mrs. X! I think this stems mostly from me only seeing my name post-marriage as Dr. X and I don''t feel old enough to be a Mrs!

I have the same problem with people thinking I am the nurse, I have made a habit of introducing my self as Dr. _____, when I see someone for the first time.

However out of work, I like my first name. And I agree it is a silly issue, I really don''t care how I am addressed in correspondence. Weather they use the Dr. or not is fine by me. I have other things to worry about. My BF is actually the one who knows all the Emily Post stuff and points this stuff out to me.

You could debate this stuff all day. This reminds me of an episode of Scrubs about the white coat and its meaning, and who really should get to wear it. I thought is was a humous look at some of the things that professionals do to make themselves different. But, I personally hate the white coat and see no point to it other than for it to collect dirt and colonize the hospital bugs. The pockets are nice, but that is about it. However, others feel very differently, and that is perfectly fine, it''s just a difference of opinion.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

As a side note - I am noticing there are many MD''s on this website! How do you guys like being an MD and how was medschool? I am almost done my PhD in Clinical Psychology but have been debating medschool for a very long time!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I just found this on the Crane site. I am interpreting it just a little differently than Haven did. Since it includes a DDS as a medical degree, I am also going to consider that a doctor of optometry or chiropractor can correctly be called Doctor on the invitation since they are within the medical area as opposed to academic:

http://www.crane.com/navContentProduct.aspx?NavName=Etiquette_Tips&DeptName=Etiquette_Wedding&Name=WedEt_Invite&ContentPage=WedInvitation_GroomName

My fiancé is a doctor. Does his title appear on our invitations?

Medical doctors properly use their professional titles on wedding invitations, whereas Ph.D.'s do not. Medical degrees, such as M.D. or D.D.S., are never mentioned. They are professional designations that don’t belong on a social invitation. Their use should be reserved for business cards and professional letterheads.


Also related to the grooms name:

The groom always uses his full name, preceded by his title. There are no abbreviations, except for "Mr." All other titles, such as "Doctor" and "The Reverend" should be written out, although "Doctor" may be abbreviated when used with a long name. If "Doctor" is used more than once on an invitation, its use should be consistent. If it’s necessary to abbreviate it with one of the names, it should be abbreviated with all names.

 

[JulieN]

Yeah, basically, I agree that this is NOT about who deserves to be called Doctor or not. I will refer to my ex's advising professor as Professor Z all day long, even though my ex calls him "Carlo." This is about social vs business.

This is why we have social (calling) cards and business cards.

This is why we have wristwatches and pocket watches.

Tuxedos vs. business suits.

When it's PARTY TIME, I don't want to be thinking about business-things like the time of day. I don't want my date to look like a Wall Street type or a banker. My date (looking dashing in a smoking jacket) should be getting me drinks, dancing with me, and not thinking about the time, or many hours he billed this month.

It's just a signal to everyone else that it's time to let loose and party! You go around introducing people as DDS, Esq, MD, Pharm D, Ph D...yeah, just not that fun.

 

[RLG]

Date: 3/2/2009 9:24:26 PM
Author: ilovethiswebsite
As a side note - I am noticing there are many MD''s on this website! How do you guys like being an MD and how was medschool? I am almost done my PhD in Clinical Psychology but have been debating medschool for a very long time!

Now that I am in the twilight of my fourth year I think medical school is awesome

. By the way I am giving up on being proper. I apparently addressed all my invitations wrong and after doing some more exploring I should have put the FI military rank on the invite as well. Oh well we are getting married and the correct people with all their degrees will show up and celebrate with us.

 

[icekid]

Date: 3/2/2009 9:35:54 PM
Author: RLG

Date: 3/2/2009 9:24:26 PM
Author: ilovethiswebsite
As a side note - I am noticing there are many MD''s on this website! How do you guys like being an MD and how was medschool? I am almost done my PhD in Clinical Psychology but have been debating medschool for a very long time!

Now that I am in the twilight of my fourth year I think medical school is awesome

. By the way I am giving up on being proper. I apparently addressed all my invitations wrong and after doing some more exploring I should have put the FI military rank on the invite as well. Oh well we are getting married and the correct people with all their degrees will show up and celebrate with us.

Haha... 4th year is good times!! Intern year (me), not so much. Well, actually I should not complain- I have a very cush prelim year. Honestly though, I would not go to med school if I had it to do again. No choice anymore! I''ve actually been trying to convince my little brother to go the PA route if he is insisting on medicine.

 

[icekid]

Date: 3/2/2009 8:45:50 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker

You could debate this stuff all day. This reminds me of an episode of Scrubs about the white coat and its meaning, and who really should get to wear it. I thought is was a humous look at some of the things that professionals do to make themselves different. But, I personally hate the white coat and see no point to it other than for it to collect dirt and colonize the hospital bugs. The pockets are nice, but that is about it. However, others feel very differently, and that is perfectly fine, it's just a difference of opinion.

Ahh.. haha Ltl, haaate the white coat! I especially hate that it is never white anymore (those things never really get clean)

Seriously, yeah I need some pockets... but that thing gets to heavy it feels like it's weighing me down. It doesn't even mean Doctor anyway these days. I don't know about your hospital, but half of the employees at mine are all wearing a white coat anyway.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Date: 3/2/2009 9:40:30 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/2/2009 9:35:54 PM
Author: RLG

Date: 3/2/2009 9:24:26 PM
Author: ilovethiswebsite
As a side note - I am noticing there are many MD''s on this website! How do you guys like being an MD and how was medschool? I am almost done my PhD in Clinical Psychology but have been debating medschool for a very long time!

Now that I am in the twilight of my fourth year I think medical school is awesome

. By the way I am giving up on being proper. I apparently addressed all my invitations wrong and after doing some more exploring I should have put the FI military rank on the invite as well. Oh well we are getting married and the correct people with all their degrees will show up and celebrate with us.

Haha... 4th year is good times!! Intern year (me), not so much. Well, actually I should not complain- I have a very cush prelim year. Honestly though, I would not go to med school if I had it to do again. No choice anymore! I''ve actually been trying to convince my little brother to go the PA route if he is insisting on medicine.

How come?

 

[Haven]

Hey, kudos to all of our PS MDs! We need good health care! I can''t believe the number of doctors we have on PS.

And, really, I don''t care what degree you have, I''ll call you "Doctor" if it really matters to you. (Just don''t tell my Great Aunt Dora. I can''t deal with her tongue clicking over it.

)

 

[bootsiekin]

Date: 3/2/2009 8:27:17 PM
Author: Haven
bootsiekin--Don''t forget JDs! Lawyers are doctors, too! And EdDs, and DPTs (physical therapy) and DBAs (business administration)! Oh, and PsyDs! Actually, I know a few PsyDs who insist on being called ''Dr.'' all the time.


Totally off topic--Is your avatar kitty named Bootsie? I had a kitty named Bootsie for 18 years, and I called her ''Bootsiekin.'' She recently passed away, and I ALWAYS think of her when I see your avatar. She was a tuxedo kitty, too.

Hi Haven -

You are right - the kitty in my avatar her name was Boots (Bootsie) and frequently Bootsiekin. She is my heart and soul. I lost her to cancer in 2005 when she was 13. She is part of the reason I wanted to get my PhD in biochemistry and am currently doing research on anti cancer drugs. She was one of the ''people'' I dedicated my masters thesis to!

I think thats awesome that you had a Bootsiekin too. Mine was actually a tortoiseshell calico. I adopted a tuxedo cat last year and she is a total sweetheart!

You''re right, there are many others doctorate degrees I didnt mention! I dont always think of physical therapy because my mom is a PT, but back then you didnt need the doctorate for it. I know with other doctorate degrees I call Dr. out of respect, but I grew up with my dad being a very well-known psychologist in our area and every one called him Dr. and everyone loved him. I remember when I took time off grad school between the MA and now and he kept telling me to finish the PhD saying, "it will all be worth it when they shake your hand and say ''Congratuations, Dr.Bootsiekin.''" Maybe that is subconsciously why this subject tugged at me. My father passed away in 2007 and he is the other reason I am doing a PhD.

 

[bootsiekin]

Date: 3/2/2009 11:07:10 PM
Author: bootsiekin

Date: 3/2/2009 8:27:17 PM

Author: Haven

bootsiekin--Don''t forget JDs! Lawyers are doctors, too! And EdDs, and DPTs (physical therapy) and DBAs (business administration)! Oh, and PsyDs! Actually, I know a few PsyDs who insist on being called ''Dr.'' all the time.



Totally off topic--Is your avatar kitty named Bootsie? I had a kitty named Bootsie for 18 years, and I called her ''Bootsiekin.'' She recently passed away, and I ALWAYS think of her when I see your avatar. She was a tuxedo kitty, too.

I also wanted to say I''m sorry for the loss of your Bootsie..especially after 18 years! I''m sure she was an awesome kitty!

 

[onceisenough11]

I have a JD and I don''t really even think to use my title Esq. or make others use it. In fact, I find it weird when I see the title Esq. after my name on my mail! LOL

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 3/2/2009 9:42:37 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/2/2009 8:45:50 PM

Author: LtlFirecracker


You could debate this stuff all day. This reminds me of an episode of Scrubs about the white coat and its meaning, and who really should get to wear it. I thought is was a humous look at some of the things that professionals do to make themselves different. But, I personally hate the white coat and see no point to it other than for it to collect dirt and colonize the hospital bugs. The pockets are nice, but that is about it. However, others feel very differently, and that is perfectly fine, it''s just a difference of opinion.

Ahh.. haha Ltl, haaate the white coat! I especially hate that it is never white anymore (those things never really get clean)

Seriously, yeah I need some pockets... but that thing gets to heavy it feels like it''s weighing me down. It doesn''t even mean Doctor anyway these days. I don''t know about your hospital, but half of the employees at mine are all wearing a white coat anyway.

You have to see this episode of scrubs. I started rolling over laughing when the janitor took a Sharpie, wrote his name on a white coat, and started wearing it, and said something to the effect of "everyone else is wearing it, why can''t I."

Iluvthiswebiste: I am one who does not regret medical school, but I really wish there was something I would have liked better than medicine. It''s a hard path, and if you can find fulfillment in something else, I would advice you do that. If you think that nothing but being an full MD will make you happy, than don''t avoid it because of the hardships that come with the profession. Medical school was fine, residency sucks. Sorry if this is blunt, I am sure me and Icekid are coming from the same place and either of us could elaborate more if needed.

Haven - sorry about the loss of Bottsie, I have 2 cats, and know how hard it is to loose one.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 3/2/2009 9:25:09 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I just found this on the Crane site. I am interpreting it just a little differently than Haven did. Since it includes a DDS as a medical degree, I am also going to consider that a doctor of optometry or chiropractor can correctly be called Doctor on the invitation since they are within the medical area as opposed to academic:


http://www.crane.com/navContentProduct.aspx?NavName=Etiquette_Tips&DeptName=Etiquette_Wedding&Name=WedEt_Invite&ContentPage=WedInvitation_GroomName


My fiancé is a doctor. Does his title appear on our invitations?


Medical doctors properly use their professional titles on wedding invitations, whereas Ph.D.''s do not. Medical degrees, such as M.D. or D.D.S., are never mentioned. They are professional designations that don’t belong on a social invitation. Their use should be reserved for business cards and professional letterheads.





Also related to the grooms name:


The groom always uses his full name, preceded by his title. There are no abbreviations, except for ''Mr.'' All other titles, such as ''Doctor'' and ''The Reverend'' should be written out, although ''Doctor'' may be abbreviated when used with a long name. If ''Doctor'' is used more than once on an invitation, its use should be consistent. If it’s necessary to abbreviate it with one of the names, it should be abbreviated with all names.

Hey, I just looked at the part for women. Wow!!! A bit of a double standard here.

I''m a medical doctor. May I use "doctor"?
On wedding invitations a woman traditionally uses her social title, which is either "Miss" or "Mrs." Since "Doctor" is a professional title, it would not properly appear with your name on wedding invitations. However, many brides understandably feel this rule is unfair and proceed to break it. If you choose to go that route, you’d use "Doctor" followed by your first, middle and last names.

 

[lovesparklies]

This is a really interesting topic. I haven''t earned a doctorate of any sort (although I have my master''s -- can I be called Master??

) but my mom is an MD and my dad is a professor and has a PhD. There was nothing I could do to convince my mom to use Drs. So and So on my wedding invitations even though I thought hey, they worked hard for those degrees and should use them! I even know about the etiquette rules for the use of Dr. for MDs and PhDs but I still thought they should both be addressed as doctor. My mom just prefers to use Dr. in professional situations and Mrs. in social situations. What I think is weird is that they addressed all the invitations to their friends (who are 90% medical doctors and professors) using Dr. and not Mr. or Mrs. The only time I''ve heard my mom upset about not being addressed as Dr. was when of my friends - a newly minted medical doctor - sent my mom a thank you note for a wedding gift and called my mom Mrs. X and signed it Dr. Z.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 3/3/2009 1:07:35 AM
Author: lovesparklies
This is a really interesting topic. I haven't earned a doctorate of any sort (although I have my master's -- can I be called Master??

) but my mom is an MD and my dad is a professor and has a PhD. There was nothing I could do to convince my mom to use Drs. So and So on my wedding invitations even though I thought hey, they worked hard for those degrees and should use them! I even know about the etiquette rules for the use of Dr. for MDs and PhDs but I still thought they should both be addressed as doctor. My mom just prefers to use Dr. in professional situations and Mrs. in social situations. What I think is weird is that they addressed all the invitations to their friends (who are 90% medical doctors and professors) using Dr. and not Mr. or Mrs. The only time I've heard my mom upset about not being addressed as Dr. was when of my friends - a newly minted medical doctor - sent my mom a thank you note for a wedding gift and called my mom Mrs. X and signed it Dr. Z.

Interesting story about your parents. I just looked at the Emily Post website, and she has the same rules for professional titles for both women and men. The whole treating men and women differently annoys me, so I had to look into it. And it looks like it is OK to use Dr. for PhD if I am reading it right. Emily Post

 

[allycat0303]

LtlFirecracker: Another one! Are you fourth year too? I am 6 days from getting my residency match results, so freaking out a little! (Ok, a lot!)

ilovethiswebsite: I don`t regret it, but I do say that if there was anything else I even vaguely enjoyed doing, in retrospect, I would say, do that instead. There is so much about medicine (especially in Canada) that is awful. And it`s a very hard road to take. You give up so much in terms of family, relationships, outside interests that it really becomes your life. If i have a daughter, I would hope that she would do something else, mainly because I want her to enjoy life to the fullest.

 

[RLG]

Iluvthiswebsite: If I had it to do over again I would have looked a little harder to see if there wasnt something else I could have been happy doing for the rest of my life. Somedays I really envy the starbucks employees.

Allycat: Good luck on the match. I''m in the military so I found out in December, but the rest of my classmates are all second guessing their rank lists right now.

 

[Haven]

Date: 3/3/2009 1:20:18 AM
Author: LtlFirecracker

Date: 3/3/2009 1:07:35 AM
Author: lovesparklies
This is a really interesting topic. I haven''t earned a doctorate of any sort (although I have my master''s -- can I be called Master??

) but my mom is an MD and my dad is a professor and has a PhD. There was nothing I could do to convince my mom to use Drs. So and So on my wedding invitations even though I thought hey, they worked hard for those degrees and should use them! I even know about the etiquette rules for the use of Dr. for MDs and PhDs but I still thought they should both be addressed as doctor. My mom just prefers to use Dr. in professional situations and Mrs. in social situations. What I think is weird is that they addressed all the invitations to their friends (who are 90% medical doctors and professors) using Dr. and not Mr. or Mrs. The only time I''ve heard my mom upset about not being addressed as Dr. was when of my friends - a newly minted medical doctor - sent my mom a thank you note for a wedding gift and called my mom Mrs. X and signed it Dr. Z.

Interesting story about your parents. I just looked at the Emily Post website, and she has the same rules for professional titles for both women and men. The whole treating men and women differently annoys me, so I had to look into it. And it looks like it is OK to use Dr. for PhD if I am reading it right. Emily Post

Well, there you have it! I stand corrected. Doctors all around!
The current book edition of Emily Post''s etiquette doesn''t say this, how odd.

bootsiekin--What a wonderful story about your beloved kitty. Thank you for your kind words about my Bootsie.
RLG--Your avatar puppy gets me every time! What a face! What ears!

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 3/3/2009 1:20:18 AM
Author: LtlFirecracker
Interesting story about your parents. I just looked at the Emily Post website, and she has the same rules for professional titles for both women and men. The whole treating men and women differently annoys me, so I had to look into it. And it looks like it is OK to use Dr. for PhD if I am reading it right. Emily Post

Thanks for posting this! I''ve been following the thread and was refraining from throwing in my 2 cents because I knew I was taking the matter too personally due to my forthcoming PhD and probably wouldn''t think clearly about it.

Glad to see that Emily Post is on board with all kinds of Drs using their title, not just MDs.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Date: 3/3/2009 12:41:48 AM
Author: LtlFirecracker

Date: 3/2/2009 9:42:37 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/2/2009 8:45:50 PM

Author: LtlFirecracker


You could debate this stuff all day. This reminds me of an episode of Scrubs about the white coat and its meaning, and who really should get to wear it. I thought is was a humous look at some of the things that professionals do to make themselves different. But, I personally hate the white coat and see no point to it other than for it to collect dirt and colonize the hospital bugs. The pockets are nice, but that is about it. However, others feel very differently, and that is perfectly fine, it''s just a difference of opinion.

Ahh.. haha Ltl, haaate the white coat! I especially hate that it is never white anymore (those things never really get clean)

Seriously, yeah I need some pockets... but that thing gets to heavy it feels like it''s weighing me down. It doesn''t even mean Doctor anyway these days. I don''t know about your hospital, but half of the employees at mine are all wearing a white coat anyway.

You have to see this episode of scrubs. I started rolling over laughing when the janitor took a Sharpie, wrote his name on a white coat, and started wearing it, and said something to the effect of ''everyone else is wearing it, why can''t I.''

Iluvthiswebiste: I am one who does not regret medical school, but I really wish there was something I would have liked better than medicine. It''s a hard path, and if you can find fulfillment in something else, I would advice you do that. If you think that nothing but being an full MD will make you happy, than don''t avoid it because of the hardships that come with the profession. Medical school was fine, residency sucks. Sorry if this is blunt, I am sure me and Icekid are coming from the same place and either of us could elaborate more if needed.

Haven - sorry about the loss of Bottsie, I have 2 cats, and know how hard it is to loose one.

Thank you for being so honest about this topic - it really is making me feel a bit better about my career choice. I always wanted to be an MD since I was very small child I always knew I wanted to "help" people. In my undergraduate career, I decided to go in to Psychology as I thought it was facinating and that it would give me a solid basis for working with patients when I was a Doctor. For some reasons doors kept opening for me in the field and I ended up applying to Clinical Psychology programs across Canada. The program here is extremely competitive - some say even harder to get in to than medicine (abbout 5% of applicants are accepted yearly). So because the doors kept opening up in this field and because I knew I wanted to be a wife and mother and be at home with my kids, I went this direction... There was also a part of me that thought I would never get in but I did... I have been in grad school for 4 years and every so often, I can''t help wonder what it would have been like to be an MD. I would have been done medschool by now which is frustrating, and a PhD takes FOREVER to complete. There is no doubt that there is something rewarding about helping people on an emotional level, especially children which is what I specialize in. I think sometimes the prestige of being an MD gets the better of me, as does the salary (which can be nearly double that of a psychologist). On the other hand, I know I will be happier with my "lifestyle" as a psychologist, as I am able to work my own hours and be my own boss in many circumstances. I don''t know - I suppose I will always wonder about being an MD... Thank you for letting me vent about this. I know this is a thread jack. lol.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Date: 3/3/2009 6:52:28 AM
Author: allycat0303
LtlFirecracker: Another one! Are you fourth year too? I am 6 days from getting my residency match results, so freaking out a little! (Ok, a lot!)

ilovethiswebsite: I don`t regret it, but I do say that if there was anything else I even vaguely enjoyed doing, in retrospect, I would say, do that instead. There is so much about medicine (especially in Canada) that is awful. And it`s a very hard road to take. You give up so much in terms of family, relationships, outside interests that it really becomes your life. If i have a daughter, I would hope that she would do something else, mainly because I want her to enjoy life to the fullest.

Hey Allycat - are you working in Toronto? My uncle is a Dr. in Quebec and is always talking about how crappy it is... What are the limitations in Canada that make it so awful?

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Date: 3/3/2009 7:26:25 AM
Author: RLG
Iluvthiswebsite: If I had it to do over again I would have looked a little harder to see if there wasnt something else I could have been happy doing for the rest of my life. Somedays I really envy the starbucks employees.

Allycat: Good luck on the match. I''m in the military so I found out in December, but the rest of my classmates are all second guessing their rank lists right now.

Wow seems the three of you ladies feel similarly about this subject. It''s too bad that MD''s aren''t treated better in the health care system.... It''s disgusting really.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

ilovethiswebsite: My mother had a PhD in psychology and had a private practice. She really loved her job, she set her own hours, made very good money. I can tell you her patients loved her, and really felt like that she make a huge impact in their lives. I think it is a great career choice.

alleycat: I wish I was a 4th year again. I am in my last year of residency, getting ready for the real world. Good luck on the match, I know that can be a nerve wreaking day, but everything happens for a reason. Having the prospective of being 3 years out, I can tell you that pretty much all my classmates are where they want to be right now, regardless of the match.

 

[cara]

Miss Manners (Judith Martin) also enthusiastically supports title parity for male and female doctors. She is a little more old-school on the use of Dr. for Ph.D.s (frowns on it), but will address Ph.D.s as doctor if it is their preference.

While I used to think that I wouldn''t want to be called ''doctor'' in any setting as I wasn''t going to be a medical doctor, my views changes as it is clearly standard in my profession and location to call Ph.D.s doctor. Maybe at a more advanced age or stature in the professional community the doctor title would be superfluous, but at this point it is a useful data point indicating something about my professional progress. So if you are calling other Ph.D.s doctor, best call me that too! Plus it gets rid of those pesky issues related to Miss/Ms/Mrs, as I find women''s titles that indicate marital status to be annoying.

Also, people don''t run around calling each other ''Doctor Jones'' usually, but that is because casual forms of address are used more frequently that formal titles. But when a formal title is called for, a professional title seeps into the social world as people socialize with others in the profession, and becomes more standard. At least that is what I think is driving the standard usage of ''Doctor'' for Ph.D.s.

 

[allycat0303]

ilovewebsite: Yes, I am in Quebec, which I venture to say is the WORST province. Lots of things are wrong. The ER''S are overcrowded (patients line the hallways. And it''s really hard to question a patient or examine a patient without even a curtain to seperate the patients). Not enough personnel. Operations are ALWAYS cancelled because of lack of nurses/orderly. We don''t have enough anesthesiologists. 1 year wait time for MRI if you are not hospitalized. 1 year wait minimum for most of the specialties (if not hospitalized). You have no offices. Everything is old, decaying and (I kid you not) parts of the hospital ceiling can fall on you. Not enough specialists. And in Quebec, the lowest salary in ALL of North America. Specific governement rules which limit how many doctors can practice WHERE. That`s right, you can finish school and be forced to practice in the north (13 hours away from civilisation) because you are not allowed to practice where you live UNLESS you''re willing to take a 30% pay cut, per year, for the rest of your life (or until you agree to go practice there for 2 years). I know that Toronto is better, as is Ottawa, because many of my friends interviewed at those places for residency and talk about it as if the hospitals are PARADISE (in terms of facilities, I don''t know about hours).

But at the end of the day, why I think medicine is so hard, is because you are expected to make so many personal sacrifices. 24 hours oncall 6 times a month for the first 3 years of residency is hard. It''s hard on your life, your relationship. As a 4th year, what is hard for me, is that we have the calls, we are at the hospital during the day, and then we have to study because every 1 month, we have the equivalent of a final exam. There are so many more professions that would have been so much easier. And as for helping people. Well to be honest, we are SO overbooked (32 patients to see in one day) that we are just running around, rushing to get the work done. Lots of times I have ZERO real personal contact with the patients. I mean intellectually, I guess I''m helping them, but then you kind of realize that you don''t always get *work well done* and sometimes, patients pass away, and I barely care, because there''s 31 other patients we have to see, that it turns out I really barely knew the woman so you move on.

The resident that interviewed me for residency told me that his last week, he worked for 102 hours. Does that define insanity? And he regularly does 80-85 hours a week. But this is s surgery resident so you can probably expect that.

My sister as a family medicine resident (considered an easier schedual) does 70-75 hours a week.

Ok end of threadjack!

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Date: 3/3/2009 11:48:06 AM
Author: allycat0303
ilovewebsite: Yes, I am in Quebec, which I venture to say is the WORST province. Lots of things are wrong. The ER'S are overcrowded (patients line the hallways. And it's really hard to question a patient or examine a patient without even a curtain to seperate the patients). Not enough personnel. Operations are ALWAYS cancelled because of lack of nurses/orderly. We don't have enough anesthesiologists. 1 year wait time for MRI if you are not hospitalized. 1 year wait minimum for most of the specialties (if not hospitalized). You have no offices. Everything is old, decaying and (I kid you not) parts of the hospital ceiling can fall on you. Not enough specialists. And in Quebec, the lowest salary in ALL of North America. Specific governement rules which limit how many doctors can practice WHERE. That`s right, you can finish school and be forced to practice in the north (13 hours away from civilisation) because you are not allowed to practice where you live UNLESS you're willing to take a 30% pay cut, per year, for the rest of your life (or until you agree to go practice there for 2 years). I know that Toronto is better, as is Ottawa, because many of my friends interviewed at those places for residency and talk about it as if the hospitals are PARADISE (in terms of facilities, I don't know about hours).

But at the end of the day, why I think medicine is so hard, is because you are expected to make so many personal sacrifices. 24 hours oncall 6 times a month for the first 3 years of residency is hard. It's hard on your life, your relationship. As a 4th year, what is hard for me, is that we have the calls, we are at the hospital during the day, and then we have to study because every 1 month, we have the equivalent of a final exam. There are so many more professions that would have been so much easier. And as for helping people. Well to be honest, we are SO overbooked (32 patients to see in one day) that we are just running around, rushing to get the work done. Lots of times I have ZERO real personal contact with the patients. I mean intellectually, I guess I'm helping them, but then you kind of realize that you don't always get *work well done* and sometimes, patients pass away, and I barely care, because there's 31 other patients we have to see, that it turns out I really barely knew the woman so you move on.

The resident that interviewed me for residency told me that his last week, he worked for 102 hours. Does that define insanity? And he regularly does 80-85 hours a week. But this is s surgery resident so you can probably expect that.

My sister as a family medicine resident (considered an easier schedual) does 70-75 hours a week.

Ok end of threadjack!

Wow ally cat... Sounds like you are extremely strong to be able to do what you do. I commend you for your work and that you decided to be a Dr despite all the limitations you described. Hopefully things will get better for you once your done all the residency BS. Do you think you will specialize or go in to family practice? I really don't get why they make residents work these 24 hr shifts... it doesn't make any sense. It's like some kind of bootcamp.

I remember I was hospitilized in Montreal (where I was born and raised) for kidney stones back in 2001. It was the worst experience of my life.... I was recently hospitilized in Toronto for gastroenteritis - and things were NOT any better here. I know the hospitals downtown are a bit better in terms of facilities but there is still a lack of MD's and the wait time in the ER and quality of care continues to be an issue.

 

[allycat0303]

ilovethiswebsite: I don''t think it''s a matter of being strong, it''s that when I applied in medicine, I REALLY had no idea. It pretty much ended and started with "I''m going to be a doctor" I didn''t know about conditions, on call, or even the PREMS (the laws that say where we can practice) I don''t only found out in my 3rd year. I didn''t know you were born in Montreal! That''s cool. Some of the hospitals here are so gross. Really. Just the physical place is gross. I guess when we visit Toronto it seems so much cleaner and newer that we believe it must all be better! I applied in Cardiac Surgery and in internal medicine at University of Montreal. So there is VERY high chance I won''t get into anything, and have to wait to see what is leftover. We''ll see how it goes on monday

 

[icekid]

Sorry for the threadjack to all of those who care about being called Doctor, Dr., or Master of the Universe...

But yeah- medicine is a tough road. It demands and totally consumes your life at points. Some people like to work this much, perhaps. I am not one of them! In retrospect, I was bound to end up here regardless. I had it in my head since I was 10 or 12 that I was going to be a doctor and never really considered much else. So even though I would not go back and do it again (cannot say many of my friends would either), I think it was sort of meant to be this way for me. I want to be *me* not just another doctor who never leaves the hospital, and I just don't feel like *me* when I have no free time.

On busy months, I might see my husband for an hour before crashing. When working nights, I don't see him at all! He leaves for work before I get home, and then he gets home about 15 minutes before I head back to work. 100 hour weeks are not out of the ordinary. I find it difficult to take care of my mental and physical well-being at those times. Ohhhhh and by the way, what little free time you have should be spent reading. Ack!

On top of all of this, most people have no respect for doctors anymore and think we're grossly overpaid. Never mind that I dedicated my 20s and early 30s to learning how to take care of the health of you and your family and that I had to take on school loans on the order of a nice house mortgage to do so. Sigh... we're all so cynical, too!

ally- I am crossing my fingers for you big time for match day. I know you're going to do great and it all seems to work out for the best, even when you don't realize it at the time. And I love hearing about the Canadian health system, because I think the US may finally be headed in that direction. While I think it will be good for a lot of people, it scares me to death because of my school loans!

ilovethiswebsite- I think it sounds like you're well on your way to a lovely career in psychology. Do not be jealous of all of those people who finished med school whiel you're still working away at your PhD; they all still have many years of PAINFUL training to come

And I'd not worry about the prestige factor either. Seriously, all I ever hear anymore is how we're all moronic and overpaid!