Trade Participation on Pricescope

[psadmin]

Hello All,
 
Our community benefits when trade people post. In fact, trade member participation helped build our forum's reputation. Professional education is a must on our forums, but there is a fuzzy line between honest education versus agenda/promotion.
 
Here are a couple of examples:
 
Example 1: A trade member posting photos from his inventory is seen as promoting, not educating. But sometimes photos are useful or necessary.

Example 2: Trade members may not comment in threads where the vendor is known. But sometimes, professionals are best suited to comment - and those comments have led to some of our most informative discussions.
 
We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict.
 
What do you think? Are the policies too strict for the Trade?

 

[kenny]

This is a tough one.
It is a balancing act encouraging vendor participation when rules are strict.

How about a rating system to encourage vendors to keep their reputation high which can help their sales.
Every vendor starts out with a rating of 100.
Every time a vendor is determined to be self-promoting or otherwise posting inappropriately (admin's call) they loose one point for one year.
Resetting ratings to 100 annually will act like new years resolutions to improve their PS participation.

Ratings would appear next to their Avatar.

The problem I see now is there are no consequences for bad vendor behavior, or any incentive for better behavior.
A PS vendor rating will be a meaningful badge of honor and the public will view it like they view ratings for eBay vendors.
A win/win for PS, vendors and consumers.

 

[IceExplorer]

Such fine lines are needed for that balance.

I think there should be limits as to what they can post inventory for.
It probably wouldn't be too difficult to create a picture library of certain high traffic topic. Inclusions come to mind. If there were a library of pictures to use for making examples, vendors wouldn't have to use their own inventory. That library can be open to general users or just trade persons.
Doing so would eliminate a whole category that needn't be worried about.

As a consumer, I greatly appreciate the input from the Trade People.

I think a simple rating system as Kenny suggested might be a deterrent to prevent vendors from crossing that line.

 

[Karl_K]

Having been on both sides:
I think vendors should be able to post pictures from stock items or past sold items only to demonstrate a technical point or education post.

The prohibition on posting about a competitors diamond should remain except in a clear case of misrepresentation, bad images(recent example, problems with incorrect ASET images), or fraud in non-technical threads. If a vendor uses an image to demonstrate a point then it is fair game.
Some of the biggest fights ever on PS was when that rule was stretched.
The appraisers, pro-sumers and non-selling trade members can cover them well enough.

Most of the time(99%) I feel like I can do what I need to do and stay well within the rules.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Having been on both sides:
I think vendors should be able to post pictures from stock items or past sold items only to demonstrate a technical point or education post.

The prohibition on posting about a competitors diamond should remain except in a clear case of misrepresentation, bad images(recent example, problems with incorrect ASET images), or fraud in non-technical threads. If a vendor uses an image to demonstrate a point then it is fair game.
Some of the biggest fights ever on PS was when that rule was stretched.
The appraisers, pro-sumers and non-selling trade members can cover them well enough.

I agree with this.

 

[Doc_1]

let free market, less regulations rule, always someone with knowledge can step in and correct a misrepresented case, but more regulations always distort free market, heck look at the mess we are in from tons of accumulative regulations over the years!
What applies to the whole country applies to the forums, it is simply a smaller country so to speak!

 

[denverappraiser]

I know a lot of tradespeople, some diamond sellers and some not, and MOST wouldn’t consider participation here. The problem from the other side of the fence is many fold and some can’t be addressed but some can.

1) The forum is very strong on Internet purchasing and it tends to marginalize and even ridicule storefront jewelers and others (like ebay sellers). Storefronts are seen as unnecessarily expensive, crappy in terms of selection and incompetent in terms of advice.

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

3) The assumption is that any vendor worth the trouble is extremely net savvy, has IS, ASET, Sarin data on all their diamonds for sale, that they have high quality photographs of their designs, etc. If they don’t, and most don’t for a variety of reasons, they’re marginalized as giving their clients poor products, poor service, unreasonable prices, or all of these.

4) It’s time consuming. If you add the compliance with #3 above, it’s VERY time consuming.

5) They percieve the risk of saying something that comes across as stupid and having it locked down and indexed forever outweigh the possibility of building new clients through participation here. The trade participation is, for the most part, remarkably selfless but they are ALL interested in selling something and that is at least a component and possibly the only reason they're here (or missing).

I’m sure there are more but that’s a start. I’m not sure what to do to solve it but I think it’s a worthwhile item to discuss. A few brief suggestions, or at least comments, in no particular order:

Pictures do make for much more interesting discussions. Since most consumers don’t have the skills or the merchandise to do this, it’s really up to the vendors. I think it’s to be encouraged, and I don’t really see much trouble with the self-promotion aspect of it as long as the source is clearly identified and as long as it's held in check to some extent. The exception would be a discussion of one vendors goods where a competitive vendor (or even one of their friends) posts a photo of an item from inventory or a link as an alternative. I think this should be avoided even when the vendor ISN’T known. Vendors should be forbidden to do it and the prosumers should be discouraged. For the most part I think the existing approach works pretty well.

The prosumers can be something of a pool of sharks, or at least appear that way, and backchannel communication to help them keep it in check is called for. Add the word ‘maul’ to the banned word list for example. I don’t think it’s done maliciously but it can make the forum look like a very hostile place to newcomers, especially b&m jewelers and especially with those who don’t particularly agree with the prevailing opinions being discussed.

Throw a bone at the new guys and smaller operations, especially new guys who have something to sell. Perhaps make a gallery specifically for ‘new discoveries’ or ‘cool stores’ where they can show off there stuff after they’ve participated for a while. How do they earn this right? Something like 20 posts and 30 days seems doable. Help them out in how to post things, help them out in terms of how to write in a positive way etc. so that they don’t accidentally stick their foot in their mouth. For most this is new and scary stuff. A half a dozen pre-written emails for anyone who registers as a trade member with a welcome and specific contact for questions or concerns wouldn't be hard.

Some forums offer an email notification when there is a post made to a thread that they’re participating in. This reduces the need to monitor things and therefore reduces the time. Allowing people to subscribe to an email notification if certain things, like their name or the name of their town, appear in a thread would also be very helpful.

Allow some sort of a possibility for editing or deleting older posts and threads so that if they discover they’ve screwed up they have some recourse rather than just living with it forever. Maybe this already exists but I think it would take away some of the fear if they didn’t feel quite so committed when they answer a question. Consumers are anonymous, jewelers are not.

Send out a ‘newsletter’ to the vendors with advice on how to do it, discussion on how to make it work and possibly even examples of folks who do it well. Yeah, that’s a huge chore but I think it would go a long way towards building a community of vendors that support the place in opposition to a community of vendors who fear it.

 

[Michael_E]

Example 1: A trade member posting photos from his inventory is seen as promoting, not educating. But sometimes photos are useful or necessary.

I don't think that it's the photo's which cause a problem as far as promotion, it's the text which accompanies those photo's. Allowing posting of any photo with the clear understanding that it is for educational purposes, such as supporting a point being made in a discussion and that any text accompanying a photo can't be obviously promotional, would seem to be a suitable allowance to make. I think that it's clear to everyone here when a person is a member of the trade, and uses the trade logo, that they are promoting their business and themselves as experts of one sort or another, so it's not like anyone is trying to hide anything. The members of each section of these forums are very adept at knocking down any overt promotional behavior and if it gets too far out of hand it's easy to get a reasonable person to tone it down. If I were to make any suggestion it would be to loosen the rules on attaching pictures, but keep the rules tight on any promotional nature of the text accompanying them.

Example 2: Trade members may not comment in threads where the vendor is known. But sometimes, professionals are best suited to comment - and those comments have led to some of our most informative discussions.

This one is more difficult. There's a pretty fine line between trying to make only objective, neutral comments where another trade member is concerned and being seen as either being overly negative or overly positive towards them. I think that in some cases it's very important that members of the trade be allowed to make neutral comments which can show a potentially different perspective as a member of the trade. I think that negative or positive comments might be misconstrued as a trade member having some agenda other than as just an interested observer and so any loosening of this rule might require more admin interventions...do the admins want to referee more wrestling matches
 

We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict.
 
What do you think? Are the policies too strict for the Trade?

Not really. The enforcement of the rules right now is loose enough that a person can get most of their points across without stepping over the boundaries, and even then it's rare that one gets their hand slapped.

From Kenny

How about a rating system to encourage vendors to keep their reputation high which can help their sales.
Every vendor starts out with a rating of 100.
Every time a vendor is determined to be self-promoting or otherwise posting inappropriately (admin's call) they loose one point for one year.
Resetting ratings to 100 annually will act like new years resolutions to improve their PS participation.

Ratings would appear next to their Avatar.

I don't know about this one Kenny. What is the downside for having a low rating and who does the rating? This sort of happens now in that most people know what different personalities are like and have some opinion about them. Having a high rating may or may not be a good thing, it just depends on who is doing the rating and why.

If the admins wanted to get more trade members to show up they could set up trade sections of the forum, galleries perhaps, in which trade members who were also active participants could post images that were in their inventories with a brief descriptive text and a link to their site. No comments allowed in that section and perhaps a moderate advertising charge for the exposure. The requirement for some minimum amount of discussion on the part of the trade members involved would automatically exclude anyone not interested in meaningful discussion as well as providing more images which could be easily linked to this site. This would work particularly well for the artisans, small colored stone cutters and others who could use the exposure and would be more likely to be involved in deeper levels of discussion. Just a thought.

 

[digitaldevo]

Truthfully? Way too strict! I have been slapped 2-3 times already and have NOT once self-promoted, since I don't even sell anything but am guilty by association because my Wife does, I am merely a research gemologist doing this for the love of it and as a hobby since becoming disabled and losing the ability to do the rest of my hobbies, I get to share my knowledge and experiences with others and help them learn, and get to help my Wife as/when I can. The first time was because I linked to an image on MY personal Flickr gallery just trying to join in some fun showing off some sapphires(one of my all time favorite gemstones), because one of the images had a watermark with my Wife's biz name on it! All of my images have watermarks to either myself, my website, or my Wife's to protect them from unauthorized usage because they have been stolen numerous times and used for commercial purposes without permission and got tired of having to enforce Copyrights and sending out DMCA Letters.They merely show the "ownership" of that particular image, some may not even have anything but s little signature on them. Not to self promote or the like. It is absolutely insane and ridiculous to say the least to punish someone for a link to an image on an image sharing website, like Flickr, or a simple watermark to protect their intellectual property and/or copyrighted materials. And for the record, the stone in question was not even for sale anywhere either.

Then I get slammed again for my jewelry news, treatments, and seller's lists (of good ones and bad ones, mainly all user submitted and then investigated by me personally and nothing subjective at all but only those based purely on facts like undisclosed treatments, wrongful and continuous misrepresentation of treatments, selling synthetics/glass as natural stones, those types of things.. good list investigated as well to be assured the seller is totally FTC compliant strictly too!), it is a community driven website by consumers, professionals, collectors, gemologists, etc. Nothing to promote anyone in specific, nor to compete with anyone else, aside from giving folks a source for unbiased info/news, when I was asked by numerous long term members for the URL. I specifically did not bother to include any part of the forum or the like as to not violate any rules. But was informed blogs or any outside links to them or the like are not permitted.

I understand there are needs for rules and it is a fine line with the trade. But NOT everyone is trying to promote themselves for sales or traffic or the like. Some really want nothing more then to better the Industry for everyone from the consumer to the professional. Some are in it for simply the love of it, etc. Rules are needed, but one can not be on the internet and expect to "block" everything from other websites for fear of "omg some of my traffic was taken" or "OMG, someone MAY possibly be promoting themselves", etc. Which is the impression I have gotten, and quite a few others. I could be wrong, but I am just telling you what I "see". There is a big difference there.

IMHO, from a new member perspective, the rules are rather Draconian to say the least. I was not even going to participate here anymore simply because I do not have the time to help and walk on eggshells at the same time, spend a decent amount of time making helpful posts only to have them removed and get "slapped" for something not even intended or innocently overlooked. Many "tradespeople" have limited time to begin with. All of them are NOT even trades people in the sales sense, like myself. But I was informed about this thread and felt the need to give my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. It is one thing if someone is well known for self promoting, does nothing but self promote and doesn't really participate/help out otherwise, etc. But it seems folks are assumed guilty from the start instead. :/

These are not even my feelings alone, but are shared by many other trades people, collectors, consumers, etc. that I talk to almost daily.

I personally think you need to find a middle ground before it ends up as nothing but consumers and show & tell. With no one around to answer the questions. Because that is all I have attempted to do, as well as just have some fun sharing pics, yet get hammered at every corner to be frank. Albeit, the mod was extremely nice and polite about it, I must give credit where credit is due.

P.S. The issue of one "trades person" commenting about another... again... it is one thing entirely if it is all subjective and opinionated, and another if the statement is based off of factual evidence/info and can be backed up, etc. What I see is something here that is setup, currently, to be B&W, when in reality there is lots of grey.

I stayed away from here for a long time until recently when I was asked by others to come as my knowledge & experience would be helpful and useful to folks.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Neil - With what you laid out, it translates for me to more props given to the PS vendors that are consistently recommended. They sure withstand a lot of "crap" and do a lot of "time consuming" things to make a sale. In my mind, if they can keep this up, they deserve their recommendations and favoritism on here. The others who can't take the time to satisfy a demanding customer .. certainly doesn't deserve my business.

 

[denverappraiser]

Neil - With what you laid out, it translates for me to more props given to the PS vendors that are consistently recommended. They sure withstand a lot of "crap" and do a lot of "time consuming" things to make a sale. In my mind, if they can keep this up, they deserve their recommendations and favoritism on here. The others who can't take the time to satisfy a demanding customer .. certainly doesn't deserve my business.

Charmy,

Andrey asked why fewer and fewer tradespeople choose to participate here and I and others have taken a stab at answering the question. Actually, I think some really good information has come out in the above posts. Whether or not it’s a problem or a feature is a separate but definitely interesting question. Do you feel greater ‘trade’ participation from people other than the popular sellers would be desirable? Why or why not?

 

[Modified Brilliant]

This is an important topic, so thanks for asking, Andrey.

I will comment from an appraiser's viewpoint (tradesperson).
I am surprised that over the years, so few appraisers are willing to post here.
There are hundreds of appraisers but only a tiny fraction are willing to post.
It could be that they are not confident in their abilities to answer questions from a very savvy PS consumer base.
Or they could be worried that if they say the wrong thing..they will be ridiculed and will be looked at in a "negative" way.
I remember the first few posts that I submitted..one using the wrong "dry humor" and was ridiculed.
I was one second away from thinking...who needs this? I'm trying to be helpful..that is all.
But like learining to swim or ride a bike...you take it very slowly..feel your way around..think before you act...etc.
Posting on PS is time consuming and many of us might only have one assistant or run a one man office.
The rewards are great if you decide to put forth the effort, however.

I would welcome more participation from appraisers. However, I believe the "fear factor" keeps many away.
How can PS become more "trade friendly?"
Rating systems can sometimes be too harsh and not always accurate.
There should be a list of appraisers who have posted on PS vs. those that are listed in the directory that have never posted.

There should be feedback shown directly under the appraiser's listing instead of using the search function.
It would be more concise and there would be less searching around.

Just some of my thoughts...

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree- great topic Andrey.
I have certainly had a wonderful experience with the management of Pricescope, since I re-joined. As long as the motivation is educational in nature, they've shown a very receptive attitude.
They have an extremely tough job, and they do it well.

I agree with a lot of what Neil wrote.
Especially point number 3.
I can totally understand why other professionals would not want to enter the fray, although I wish more would
And it certainly is time consuming.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Wow this thread got off to a great start!!!
Neil I would have loved to see you make several posts as your first post is full of gems, and maybe one by one they could have been entire threads.

Neil - With what you laid out, it translates for me to more props given to the PS vendors that are consistently recommended. They sure withstand a lot of "crap" and do a lot of "time consuming" things to make a sale. In my mind, if they can keep this up, they deserve their recommendations and favoritism on here. The others who can't take the time to satisfy a demanding customer .. certainly doesn't deserve my business.

Charmy,

Andrey asked why fewer and fewer tradespeople choose to participate here and I and others have taken a stab at answering the question. Actually, I think some really good information has come out in the above posts. Whether or not it’s a problem or a feature is a separate but definitely interesting question. Do you feel greater ‘trade’ participation from people other than the popular sellers would be desirable? Why or why not?

Yes CharmyPoo - you have been around for a long enough time - please think back to how ground breaking some of those great debates between vendors and experts were. When many of us would recieve late night emails from various un-name-able dignatories in Ivory Lab coated towers with additional fuel for the fires of peer review.

My concern is less with vendors than it is with expertise. Expertise can come from enthusiast consumers, often from appraisers, back room experts and scientists, gem writters - as well as our many very bright vendors.

But there have been and arguably still are examples of vendors over stepping the mark. So rules keep getting made - but the hardest thing of all is when good people like Jamey Swisher do not understand why the rules got made (e.g the logo on the images Jamey, can be abused by vendors as free ad's).

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Example 1: A trade member posting photos from his inventory is seen as promoting, not educating. But sometimes photos are useful or necessary.

"I don't think that it's the photo's which cause a problem as far as promotion"

I agree with Michael they should be allowed.

Far too often tradesmembers use this rule to make unsupported opinions and then claim they can't provide images or videos to support what they have said.

There are a small number of tradesmembers who I have noticed make consistant self promotional posts in the name of education.
Some even go so far as to find some way to post their own inventory even under the current rules and that is not a problem, but when they make salesmanship type comments about the pictures they have posted it becomes more of an abuse and violation.

The problem with opening up and allowing trademembers to post educational photographs and videos is that this requires stricter enforcement of the accompanying text. I am all for giving more freedom to tradesmembers to educate us from their well supported experience, they are the most valuable source of information, however this freedom should come with more strict responsibility and enforcement.

Any self promotional text as deemed a violation by moderators or administrators should be edited as quickly as external links. The offender should also receive only a limited number of warnings before they are suspended and/or banned.

It may even require guidelines on what may be included in the videos or photographs and their accompanying text I suggest the following:

a) Self Promotional statesments should not be included
b) Subjective comments about beauty or value should be minnimized or eliminated
c) The information should be presented with a clear focus on education and a straight presentation of objective facts.
d) If commentary or sound is signifcantly of the promotional type than the video should be edited to remove such comments prior to posting
e) Educational videos or photographs should not include an obvious promotional bias. If the video is deemed to be misleading to consumers it is unsuitable for posting.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This is an important topic, so thanks for asking, Andrey.

I will comment from an appraiser's viewpoint (tradesperson).
I am surprised that over the years, so few appraisers are willing to post here.
There are hundreds of appraisers but only a tiny fraction are willing to post.
It could be that they are not confident in their abilities to answer questions from a very savvy PS consumer base.
Or they could be worried that if they say the wrong thing..they will be ridiculed and will be looked at in a "negative" way.
I remember the first few posts that I submitted..one using the wrong "dry humor" and was ridiculed.
I was one second away from thinking...who needs this? I'm trying to be helpful..that is all.
But like learining to swim or ride a bike...you take it very slowly..feel your way around..think before you act...etc.
Posting on PS is time consuming and many of us might only have one assistant or run a one man office.
The rewards are great if you decide to put forth the effort, however.

Jeff I agree, but you know now that forum and facebook twitter type etiquitte is more commonly understood - I think it is much easier for a lot of us old dinasaurs to engage.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Do you feel greater ‘trade’ participation from people other than the popular sellers would be desirable? Why or why not?

Neil good question and I'm not Charmy but I'd like to answer it.

I beleive noone is truly altruistic in their approach to posting here on these forums and this explicitly applies to those in the trade whose posts can translate to future business.

The overall level of discussion and knowledge would be much higher with more varied trade participation. I'm not talking about trademembers who just want to promote or sell their expertise or ones that give poorly supported opinions on what they think is beautiful. I'm talking about trade input especially in technical discussions in Rockytalky where their used to be a dozen or so trademembers weighing in on discussions, now the number is often reduced to half or less.

I am all for increasing the number of new participating trademembers, however I have seen several new ones pop up recently in Rockytalky and more often than not they are selling themselves or their "friends" and not contributing much towards new knowledge. This may be an issue of learning the etiquette on pricescope better and I hope so. For me well supported opinions, popular or not are most welcome. The other kind really waste a disproportionate amount of time for those PS staff and regular members who make it their job to correct unsupported and often misleading posts

 

[Karl_K]

Personally, I think the biggest thing holding back many trade members other than lack of time is that because I say so is never an acceptable answer.
Many over the years have posted: I say so and I have 20 years experience........ the overwhelming response is *yawn* so prove it.
If they step up to the plate they last but many just leave.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Good in my opinion because PS needs experts who are willing and able to explain things.

 

[Laila619]

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

Great post, Neil. I especially agree with this part.

I for one would like to see other vendors promoted besides WF, Brian Gavin, and GOG. The amount of bias and favoritism towards them is bordering on silly.

 

[kenny]

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

Great post, Neil. I especially agree with this part.

I for one would like to see other vendors promoted besides WF, Brian Gavin, and GOG. The amount of bias and favoritism towards them is bordering on silly.

But don't GOG, WF and BGD and some others pay to be PS vendors, and also pay PS to have their inventory listed in the PS search tool?
True or false?

And isn't it significant that they have been vetted and accepted by PS to be PS vendors?
Doesn't that mean something legitimate?
Am I dumb to give that some weight when deciding whom to buy from?

 

[denverappraiser]

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

Great post, Neil. I especially agree with this part.

I for one would like to see other vendors promoted besides WF, Brian Gavin, and GOG. The amount of bias and favoritism towards them is bordering on silly.

But don't GOG, WF and BGD and some others pay to be PS vendors, and also pay PS to have their inventory listed in the PS search tool?
True or false?

And isn't it significant that they have been vetted and accepted by PS to be PS vendors?
Doesn't that mean something legitimate?
Am I dumb to give that some weight when deciding whom to buy from?

There’s really no such thing as a PS vendor. Tradespeople come in several flavors here but there are no official designation.

Dealers pay to have stones listed in the database. This is the primary way PS makes money. This includes both the regular participants in the forum, like the folks you mentioned, and those who choose only to have their stones included but don’t want to take the time to talk to us, like Blue Nile or Abazias. They also pay for the banner ads on the various pages. The charges are the same whether or not they choose to participate in the forum and are a function of things like how many stones are listed and how often and where the banner appears.

Some tradespeople, like myself, Jeff, and Sergey participate in the forum but don’t have stones listed in the database and don’t buy the banners. We pay nothing other than our time. Others, like John Pollard and Karl K, are not directly part of the database but are affiliated with others who are. They don’t pay but the dealers who are selling goods as their partners do.

There are also a few who support the site through the banner ads but who choose not to participate in either the database or the forum. Leon Mege comes to mind, while some will participate and also buy the banners, Dave Atlas for example.

Lastly, there are a few, like Erika, who are part of Pricescope itself. She gets paid to do this.

All of these people and others have their own reasons for doing it and, presumably, each finds it a worthwhile exercise or they wouldn’t be here. It is worth noting that the list of actively participating tradespeople rarely gets a new entry that sticks around. Tom Gelb comes to mind as a fabulous new participant within the last year but most of us have been around for quite a while. I’m still comparatively new on that list at 6 years. In Internet time, that's nearly forever. The group of non-participating advertisers tends to change occasionally and that’s surely about the money but, for the most part, the above groups have become pretty static or even shrinking. That I think is the heart of the issue. Why? Is it a problem at all and, if so, what's to be done about it?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I have read this thread with interest, and I agree with Garry that Neil's quality of reply is extremely useful, as is often the case with Neil's posts.

What I am missing in the discussion is the presence of a goal. It risks to lead the exchange into circles, without any progress.

So, what is the goal of Pricescope as a community or as a business? Once that is clear, we can start suggesting ways in which this may work in tandem with the goals of all posters, whether consumer or trade.

I can see many possible goals for PS, but I do not know which are correct:
- More interesting discussion on the forums enhances the reputation of PS, and creates more traffic.
- More content creates more traffic.
- If more lurkers would participate, it would extend the reach of PS.
- If more vendors would participate, it would extend the reach of PS.
- ...

As far as vendor participation goes on RockyTalky, I find it eye-opening to see that the most popular vendors (in the sense of being refered to) are not actively participating in the forum. One of them only posts when he needs to apologize for some mishap, so he could be considered a regular poster though. That also sheds another light on the implied automatic connection between posting here and generating business.

To summarize, I think it is necessary to really broaden the discussion here instead of focusing where the fine line between offering information and promoting exactly lies.

Live long,

 

[oldminer]

This a a great thread and I was tempted to just read it and agree that pretty much that already has been written fits the situation. I don't post a lot each day, but select my targets when the time allows and the topic fits what I am able to offer qualified advice on. Sometimes I come on to correct ar alter something offered which I view as bad advice or incorrect advice. It does not happen a great deal of the time. Keeping in mind that self-promotion is to be avoided keeps some of the postings rather "diplomatic", but that works okay if the writer can handle the complexity of avoiding speaking of oneself. Not everyone has equal skills of self expression and it is time consuming and tricky to avoid the pitfalls. In essence, every quality post by an expert or trade person is a way of building credibility in the Pricescope community and is a form of self-promotion. Of course, every idiotic, careless or angry post is a way of losing this hard won credibility, too. The scales are self balancing.

It would be a wonderful thing to have a notation for appraisers who not only have a free listing in the appraiser's section, but who risk or choose to participate on the forums. There are many appraisers who jumped on the bandwagon who never participate. Consumers surely would like to know who has withstood the give and take of the forums versus those who have never ventured into the arena. Lots of "appraisers" are quite limited in their range of knowledge and ability, but many are dedicated to learning the business. It takes many years to get a good handle on appraising and related skills. Rather than criticize, I have spent time teaching for appraisal organizations such as ASA and NAJA. It is very much the same as the sharing that goes on in Pricescope. The rewards are not generally financial, but once in a while you get a smile from the pleasure of the end result.

 

[Circe]

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

Great post, Neil. I especially agree with this part.

I for one would like to see other vendors promoted besides WF, Brian Gavin, and GOG. The amount of bias and favoritism towards them is bordering on silly.

But don't GOG, WF and BGD and some others pay to be PS vendors, and also pay PS to have their inventory listed in the PS search tool?
True or false?

And isn't it significant that they have been vetted and accepted by PS to be PS vendors?
Doesn't that mean something legitimate?
Am I dumb to give that some weight when deciding whom to buy from?

DenverAppraiser ... excellent original post. I agree with every word. PriceScope needs professional "new blood" to stay interesting and avoid the echo chamber effect. Holding tech newbies to the same standard immediately is counterproductive. We'll get better content and better discussions if we encourage new vendors to contribute their viewpoints (and, for that matter, better business options if they stick around and see the benefits of catering to picky consumers like us, and incorporate some of this newfangled ASET, Sarin, etc. technology). So, Charmy ... while I think the PS vendors who are already here get props, don't we want to have/be aware of more options? Otherwise, we can just spray PS in sealant and call it a day.

Re: the immediate quote ... uh, Kenny, I love PS, but it's a forum, and a the companies you list are advertisers. That's not a mark of moral rectitude or virtue: it's the sign of an intelligent marketing department. The fact that those companies get consistently awesome reviews makes me feel more comfortable with them, but, for that matter, there are non-advertising pros here who get the same consistent high praise from their customers: I'm thinking of Rockdiamond, for example. I give a lot more weight to customer reviews than I do to somebody's ad budget. Isn't that sort of the point of a consumer forum? The advertisers support it financially for the benefit of increased attention and traffic, but at the end of the day, consumers don't visit for the advertising but for the content. And when it comes to content, I want as many diverse and knowledgeable viewpoints as possible ....

 

[Regular Guy]

One of them only posts when he needs to apologize for some mishap, so he could be considered a regular poster though.

Besides making an insightful funny (I resemble a buyer from that vendor!), Paul's point is the best one, I think. What would benefit Pricescope more is evidence of consistent, intentional, strategy. Sorry...should I go on?

Nei's point about people adding on only slowly is true. To an extent, though, I do not regard this point as a negative. Karl makes my point when he says many folks aren't willing to stay toe to toe, when heat is turned up. This makes a potentially good and richer environment for quality...those that stay around are able to, and shoppers are richer for the vendor's accountability.

However, my theory about more recent expert droppage relates to the PS2 issues. To the extent that vendors or even experts act in a utilitarian way...they may stick around for a larger audience. But, the audience has diminished with PS2. And so, experts will be less motivated to remain.

Why PS2? We had been told it reached threshold constraints, and needed to change. I believe this. I understand they tried to use the opportunity, in the year before it, to see how the "necessity can be the mother of invention" idea could make PS better. But, it seems instead PS has only been struggling to retain functionality it merely had before.

And how hard are they even trying to do that? Serious PS users come to value their ability to search within it. In the troubleshooting pinned thread, Coati had posted a substantive solution. Best I can tell, (eta: even the fact that she had originally made the suggestion that such a utility was actually available) was scrubbed, despite promises to make this search tool prominent. Why promise if the promise will not be kept? With respect to being strategic, indeed, why not bring it forward as a priority. Nevermind that Garry's thread pinned for some time about how to find AGS stones received no follow up, or comment for lack thereof.

Why this thread at all. Rather than being strategically drawn forward, I believe Digitaldevo probably complained, and brought this thread forward, as we can read above.

Why am I here? Some of us have no strategic reason. So, maybe I should not be one to talk. But...here I go nonetheless...

Best wishes,

Ira Z.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

I know a lot of tradespeople, some diamond sellers and some not, and MOST wouldn’t consider participation here. The problem from the other side of the fence is many fold and some can’t be addressed but some can.

1) The forum is very strong on Internet purchasing and it tends to marginalize and even ridicule storefront jewelers and others (like ebay sellers). Storefronts are seen as unnecessarily expensive, crappy in terms of selection and incompetent in terms of advice.

Yes, this is disappointing. Many storefronts can be very valuable sources of information. There are brick and mortar shops that have been in business for decades that are experts in their own field and should justifiably be respected. Yes some B&M's suck, but others are simply remarkable.

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

Very true. I don't find Pricescope a truly unbiased location for information at all. I specialize in the quality of diamonds that Pricescope appears to champion, however when clients post questions they are redirected elsewhere. The brand of a diamond should be inconsequential. It should be the quality of the item, the service provided, etc, that should be the important factor.

3) The assumption is that any vendor worth the trouble is extremely net savvy, has IS, ASET, Sarin data on all their diamonds for sale, that they have high quality photographs of their designs, etc. If they don’t, and most don’t for a variety of reasons, they’re marginalized as giving their clients poor products, poor service, unreasonable prices, or all of these.

Yes.

4) It’s time consuming. If you add the compliance with #3 above, it’s VERY time consuming.

Yes.

5) They percieve the risk of saying something that comes across as stupid and having it locked down and indexed forever outweigh the possibility of building new clients through participation here. The trade participation is, for the most part, remarkably selfless but they are ALL interested in selling something and that is at least a component and possibly the only reason they're here (or missing).

Yes.

I couldn't agree with Denver Appraiser more. Those of us with smaller businesses and less brand awareness on Pricescope are severely penalized. I've tried to provide unbiased opinions about aspects of diamonds from my experience only to be attacked. It's like small vendors are considered the enemy by default, considered inept, and if their opinion differs from the Pricescope elite they will be attacked.

I would also emphasize that a tremendous amount of no-trade commentators portray opinions as facts. This makes it difficult for many clients who are just confused by the overload of information. Many aspects of diamond selection are opinions and it should be clearly stated as so by EVERYONE. From my point of view the experts (those in the Trade who are highly educated) are discounted for the opinion of a select group of Pricescope Elite, who may or may not be extremely biased.

These aspects cause me to be extremely reluctant to post in most cases.

--Joshua

 

[stone-cold11]

Joshua,

One thing is you do not have stones put up for search on PS database, so how would people direct customers to you?

Second, even your serenity diamonds do not have IS, hearts image or even the GIA report, uploaded for easy screening. Again, how to direct any customers to you? Based on what? Just a loupe image?

EDT:
Third, GOG, HPD and NiceIce are also small operations.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

Andrey,

Thanks.

You make pointed observations (and ask a legit follow up question).

You wrote:

"We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict".

Indeed you are correct and I have personally received this type of feedback from several fellow colleagues in the trade who are reluctant to join and/or contribute on PS.

Back in July of 2009, I started an open thread on this forum, entitled "Discussion on Bias". I thought it would be an interesting discussion and that it would engender some feedback all around. However, I was astounded when the thread ultimately generated 15 pages of responses and (If I recall correctly) over 10,000 views! Apparently, the topic was important and timely and many people had strong feelings all around.

In my initial posting on that thread, I made a few observations which I feel can be equally applied to your thread here. More specifically, it may serve to shed some light - and apply some additional perspective to your observations and question.

I wrote in part:


..............."All types of posters to these boards have much to contribute. The newbies - enthusiasts - pro-sumers - tradespeople and vendors, all contribute positively to the amazing atmosphere here. However, the potential for 'bias' is not limited to any one type of poster.

Vendors and tradespeople have an obvious potential for bias, since they are engaged in the retail sale of their diamonds, jewelry and services. However, a biased vendor or tradesperson not offering sound advice on these boards has a very finite and short lived lifespan here. Tradespeople on these boards are clearly delineated by their titles and signatures and so everybody knows they are selling something. This distinction is positive, since it marks them as a potentially biased contributor and forces them to articulate and dispense unbiased and expert advice and information if they are to maintain any longevity here. Therefore, the fact that there is a potential for bias on the part of a seller/tradesperson, does not diminish his ability to offer invaluable advice to the consumers who frequent these boards and who are apt to purchase anywhere. In fact, one can make an argument that by virtue of posting helpful, impartial and expert advice, a vendor/tradesperson is indirectly engaging in a healthy form of self promotion!


Non vendor/tradesperson posters and pro-sumers can be absolutely biased too. Many posters and pro-sumers here have started their careers as newbies and have actually made a purchase with a specific vendor, or have developed a liking for a specific vendor. It is routine for certain of these posters to not so subtlety promote and push their own vendor/agenda by steering newbies to their preferred vendor(s). In fact, in certain instances, a newbie will ask for advice on a specific diamond from a specific vendor, only to be steered away by a poster/pro-sumer to a different diamond by the vendor favorite of their own choice. In these instances, we are talking about traffic which may be perceived as directed or re-directed to the vendor of choice (and at the expense of the other), which can result in a significant loss of revenue for the vendor not on the agenda.

Can it be said that these types of posters who direct traffic to the tune of thousands of dollars are unbiased because they are not actually selling something? Of course not. In fact, an argument can be made that these posters are more dangerously biased, since they have the ability to mask their bias in the guise of an unbiased contributor....


When distinctions in diamond quality warrants the promotion of one vendor over another, this promotion cannot be considered bias. Moreover, when feedback is requested regarding the many reputable vendors who have earned their accolades, it is not considered bias for posters to offer up those accolades. However, this is not always the case.


In addition, the term 'bias' doesn't have to be limited to the specific promotion of a vendor or product. Sometimes the advice (itself) dispensed by posters or unscrupulous vendors, is biased in its erroneous and inaccurate content which will often serve to dismiss perfectly beautiful and viable diamond candidates from consideration by the customer, or promote diamonds not worthy of consideration at all".

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Joshua,

One thing is you do not have stones put up for search on PS database, so how would people direct customers to you?

Second, even your serenity diamonds do not have IS, hearts image or even the GIA report, uploaded for easy screening. Again, how to direct any customers to you? Based on what? Just a loupe image?

EDT:
Third, GOG, HPD and NiceIce are also small operations.

I have my stones listed on my site on some other smaller listing services. Listing on PS is quite expensive, and I'm working to do that in the future.

You are correct, not all my stones have a GIA report listed on the site, and not all of them have images, and none have H&A photos at the moment. I deal with clients mostly in person, on referral over the phone, etc, and those images are provided on request for serious customers because of the workload involved. I cannot really answer more in detail without self promotion.

It's expected that you aren't referring anyone to me, as we've never worked together. The challenge is when people are working with me, or have before, when they are directed elsewhere to the 'favorites'.

--Joshua

 

[Karl_K]

I know a lot of tradespeople, some diamond sellers and some not, and MOST wouldn’t consider participation here. The problem from the other side of the fence is many fold and some can’t be addressed but some can.

1) The forum is very strong on Internet purchasing and it tends to marginalize and even ridicule storefront jewelers and others (like ebay sellers). Storefronts are seen as unnecessarily expensive, crappy in terms of selection and incompetent in terms of advice.

It is a sad fact that many are. That PS focuses on internet purchases is a natural fit and has always been its niche. Leonid tried to move it beyond that and a very vocal part of the trade raised so many complaints that it was dropped.

2) The forum strongly endorses a rather short list of vendors. Vendors from ‘outside’ the favored few are routinely not treated respectfullly. Potential customers are routinely steered away from them and towards the favorites with litle or no justification.

Over the years a PS method of diamond selection has evolved and the vendors that are willing to fill that will always be favored. The vendors who come here with an attitude will change or get sent packing. That is a fact. The favored vendors have spent years catering to the PS method of diamond evaluation combined with years of excellent service. Anyone who spends 2-3 hours reading with an open mind will find all the information they need to begin being a successful vendor on PS in a short amount of time.

3) The assumption is that any vendor worth the trouble is extremely net savvy, has IS, ASET, Sarin data on all their diamonds for sale, that they have high quality photographs of their designs, etc. If they don’t, and most don’t for a variety of reasons, they’re marginalized as giving their clients poor products, poor service, unreasonable prices, or all of these.

Not really, they are seen as being unable or unwilling to offer what has evolved over the years into what the PS consumers want before they feel comfortable recommending a diamond.
They would no more recommend a diamond based on just a grading report than you or I would.
That is a good thing.
Just like say for example advertising in a major magazine has standards on what you need to do to be successful so does PS.