Treatment on an emerald - araldite

[chrono]

Palma is considered a resin so any mixture of cedarwood oil with Palma should not be called "oiled only" since it contains resin filling. Perhaps "oil and resin enhancement"?

 

[treasurehunter]

but what should the rest of the ''oiled '' stones be classified as ? If they are not 100 percent natural oil. ?

 

[chrono]

The answer would depend on the type of oil and whatever additives it might contain. Simply put, it is either oil or oil + resin.

 

[minousbijoux]

Many labs refer to the level of treatment - light, moderate, etc. The practice appears to be oil alone considered light treatment and oil with resin/epoxy as moderate. If labs are able to categorize in such a fashion, then an honest vendor should follow suit and call it what it is - moderately treated with oil and epoxy.

 

[Jereni]

So, an update. I've been mulling over this stone for months, because not long after my last post, the vendor sent me a hand pic of the stone that I found really lovely and made me want to find a way to justify the araldite to myself, lol.

As part of that justification ( ), I asked the vendor what the percentage mixture of cedar wood oil to araldite was. Figuring that if it was maybe like 75% cedar oil, I would feel more comfortable.

But their response just made me so sad. He said that they don't get information on the mixture, so he had no way of ensuring that it wasn't more araldite than cedar oil. I just... you know? The page lists the stone as 'cedar wood oil treatment' and based on what he told me, he can't ensure that the mixture isn't like 90% araldite for example. I just found that so disappointing.

It was Embassy Emeralds.

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh, wow. That is big news, as I thought for sure Embassy Emeralds was very clear in their disclosure policies. Crap.

 

[JewelFreak]

At least they were honest about it when you asked. Too bad you had to ask, though. Disappointing.

--- Laurie

 

[carmen1]

Eek, I bought an emerald from them last year that was supposedly oil only... Off to contact them now...

 

[Embassy]

Hello all, my name is Garrett. I am the owner of Embassy Emeralds. Thankfully a customer brought this thread to my attention today and I felt I should respond and be available here to address it personally.

I enjoy Pricescope, it’s an awesome resource for sure and I’ve have stopped in to read posts from time to time but haven’t registered until now. Just as Pricescope is a resource for us gem and jewelry lovers, it is also great to see how customers and respected people in the industry view your business and their experience with it. It has been my intent to not influence the honest opinions shared here about Embassy Emeralds as a business, our stones, and even about conversations I’ve had with individual customers. It’s all been very positive (until some of the conclusions drawn in this thread) and we’re very proud of the reputation we’ve worked very hard for over the years. Customers that write to us know that I will write very honest and sometimes exceedingly long emails to describe stones, answer questions, and explain in full detail, to paint the whole, transparent picture as well as I can, that allows them to make informed decisions.

I recall the conversations with Jereni in the final 2 days of our last trip to Colombia. I was impressed with her knowledge and resourcefulness in the email and thought there would be more back and forth but I can now see why she may have checked out after reading some of the opinions in this thread. Please allow me to address some of the points here.

I would like to say that despite any of the suggestions to the contrary here, I make no attempt to be anything other than upfront and honest with my customers, ever. It is unfortunate and regrettable if anything was perceived differently than what was intended, perhaps its my writing style, but there never was and never will be any attempt by us to be anything but transparent. I care very much about and love my business working with emeralds, the excellent reputation we’ve earned in the industry, and especially about the customers that have come to trust in us and me personally to help guide them in what is a big moment, for some.

To address the thread topic directly, as some of you may know and have even provided evidence about, the Colombian emerald market in Bogota can be difficult terrain. With gematrat, permasafe, waxes, doublets, you name it, etc… and even talk of new irradiated stones coming back, it can be tough to navigate if you don’t know what you’re doing. After 7+ years in business, a few dozen trips, and two years actually living and working with emeralds everyday in Bogota, we know it well but I’m certain we still haven’t seen everything.

It’s obvious to me that Treasurehunter knows the Colombian emerald landscape well and I think he put it best when he posted the CDTEC lab stats:

When I went to the laboratory in colombia called CDTEC 97 percent of emeralds that come from colombia are treated.
2-3 percent are not treated
Only 2 percent are treated with 100 percent pure cedar wood oil.
Around 80 percent are treated with cedar wood oil in combination with non natural oils.
the remaining 15 percent are treated with hardener permasafe type treatments, which can deceptive because if they use it on emerald rough before its cut. The hardener can literally keep the rough together and stop it from falling apart on the cutting wheel.
Permasefe can also make the fractures disappear more than cedar wood oil so it should be disclosed.

Emerald treatments like Permasefe and non natural oils are not specifically bad, Its the amount of filler /treatment that is used that is most important.
Emeralds with a significant level of treatment should be avoided .
Minute or minor have so little amount of enhancer its not a concern.

I don’t fault anyone for seeking 2nd opinions or those providing them in response if you’re an expert on the subject. I respect all of you and I certainly won't question your specific areas of expertise, but having probably spent more time in Bogota than perhaps anyone that has contributed to this thread, I would agree with treasurehunter 100% and I think those numbers are fairly close, though untreated stones are probably under 1%. The discussion with Jereni concerned an emerald that falls in that 80% statistic, which some here may have overlooked, but its very important. When you go to the treatment lab and ask for ‘cedro’ (which translates to cedar, but refers to the a cedar wood oil mix in that 80%), you get the cedar wood oil mixed with non-natural additives for better viscosity (which reduces leakage). It’s the standard, but apparently there are two main types of this mixed used. One which is also known as ‘palma’ and another which has come to be known as ‘cedro comercial’ or commercial cedar wood oil. The main difference appears to be that the cedro comercial doesn’t suffer from the clouding or whitening as quickly. It might not cloud for possibly 10 years or more. That is what was used and in this case, as is often true, the additive used is araldite. Araldite is used in a lot of things to thicken or harden them. Araldite is added to the natural cedar wood oil and is widely referred to as simply ‘cedar wood oil’ as was stated and as was disclosed. The mix leaks much less than the cedar oil alone, but retains its liquid state and can be removed very easily, unlike hard epoxies such as permasafe or gematrat. Another important statistic that was seemingly overlooked is that they reported that only 2% of stones are found to contain pure cedar wood oil. My supplier is the only dealer I know that uses it on some stones. It’s more expensive and leaks more, which may account for it being such a low percentage.

I think some people here are finding something out they didn’t know and are perhaps surprised by it and don’t know how it fits into their long held perceptions or misconceptions of emerald treatments.

With all this said, I recognize the lack of good information out there and the stigma on anything that’s not 100% organic, both of which are readily apparent in this and almost any other discussion on the subject. Few gemologists having intimate knowledge of it, complicating the matter further. That’s unfortunate, and it has stirred us to now clean and re-oil stones whenever possible with the certified pure oil just to avoid the stigma, the misconceptions, and the long explanations that comes with it. In the future we hope to do this for everything and possibly to even start oiling ourselves to remove any doubt, but it’s extremely uncommon to go to the lengths that we do even now. The hope is to just distance ourselves from any of the misconceptions that surround it, despite its very wide use and acceptance as an ethical treatment.

The stone discussed with Jereni had the typical cedar oil treatment because time did not allow for us to flush and re-oil it before we concluded our trip. We were direct and upfront about it being treated with ‘cedar wood oil’ because that’s what it is called. I think it was well intended, but to suggest we should blaze a new trail in the industry and start listing individual ingredients or additives that have pretty much always been there is again ignoring the 80% statistic above and the fact that this mix is called 'cedar wood oil' by anyone in Colombia who works with emeralds . We would have preferred to re-oil it but the fact remains that the treatment the stone contains is ethical, widely used, and was disclosed. I don't believe Jereni felt I was misleading her in any way and hopefully after hearing from me here, that's even more apparent now. Thank you for reading.

 

[minousbijoux]

Hello all, my name is Garrett. I am the owner of Embassy Emeralds. Thankfully a customer brought this thread to my attention today and I felt I should respond and be available here to address it personally.

I enjoy Pricescope, it’s an awesome resource for sure and I’ve have stopped in to read posts from time to time but haven’t registered until now. Just as Pricescope is a resource for us gem and jewelry lovers, it is also great to see how customers and respected people in the industry view your business and their experience with it. It has been my intent to not influence the honest opinions shared here about Embassy Emeralds as a business, our stones, and even about conversations I’ve had with individual customers. It’s all been very positive (until some of the conclusions drawn in this thread) and we’re very proud of the reputation we’ve worked very hard for over the years. Customers that write to us know that I will write very honest and sometimes exceedingly long emails to describe stones, answer questions, and explain in full detail, to paint the whole, transparent picture as well as I can, that allows them to make informed decisions.

I recall the conversations with Jereni in the final 2 days of our last trip to Colombia. I was impressed with her knowledge and resourcefulness in the email and thought there would be more back and forth but I can now see why she may have checked out after reading some of the opinions in this thread. Please allow me to address some of the points here.

I would like to say that despite any of the suggestions to the contrary here, I make no attempt to be anything other than upfront and honest with my customers, ever. It is unfortunate and regrettable if anything was perceived differently than what was intended, perhaps its my writing style, but there never was and never will be any attempt by us to be anything but transparent. I care very much about and love my business working with emeralds, the excellent reputation we’ve earned in the industry, and especially about the customers that have come to trust in us and me personally to help guide them in what is a big moment, for some.

To address the thread topic directly, as some of you may know and have even provided evidence about, the Colombian emerald market in Bogota can be difficult terrain. With gematrat, permasafe, waxes, doublets, you name it, etc… and even talk of new irradiated stones coming back, it can be tough to navigate if you don’t know what you’re doing. After 7+ years in business, a few dozen trips, and two years actually living and working with emeralds everyday in Bogota, we know it well but I’m certain we still haven’t seen everything.

It’s obvious to me that Treasurehunter knows the Colombian emerald landscape well and I think he put it best when he posted the CDTEC lab stats:

When I went to the laboratory in colombia called CDTEC 97 percent of emeralds that come from colombia are treated.
2-3 percent are not treated
Only 2 percent are treated with 100 percent pure cedar wood oil.
Around 80 percent are treated with cedar wood oil in combination with non natural oils.
the remaining 15 percent are treated with hardener permasafe type treatments, which can deceptive because if they use it on emerald rough before its cut. The hardener can literally keep the rough together and stop it from falling apart on the cutting wheel.
Permasefe can also make the fractures disappear more than cedar wood oil so it should be disclosed.

Emerald treatments like Permasefe and non natural oils are not specifically bad, Its the amount of filler /treatment that is used that is most important.
Emeralds with a significant level of treatment should be avoided .
Minute or minor have so little amount of enhancer its not a concern.

I don’t fault anyone for seeking 2nd opinions or those providing them in response if you’re an expert on the subject. I respect all of you and I certainly won't question your specific areas of expertise, but having probably spent more time in Bogota than perhaps anyone that has contributed to this thread, I would agree with treasurehunter 100% and I think those numbers are fairly close, though untreated stones are probably under 1%. The discussion with Jereni concerned an emerald that falls in that 80% statistic, which some here may have overlooked, but its very important. When you go to the treatment lab and ask for ‘cedro’ (which translates to cedar, but refers to the a cedar wood oil mix in that 80%), you get the cedar wood oil mixed with non-natural additives for better viscosity (which reduces leakage). It’s the standard, but apparently there are two main types of this mixed used. One which is also known as ‘palma’ and another which has come to be known as ‘cedro comercial’ or commercial cedar wood oil. The main difference appears to be that the cedro comercial doesn’t suffer from the clouding or whitening as quickly. It might not cloud for possibly 10 years or more. That is what was used and in this case, as is often true, the additive used is araldite. Araldite is used in a lot of things to thicken or harden them. Araldite is added to the natural cedar wood oil and is widely referred to as simply ‘cedar wood oil’ as was stated and as was disclosed. The mix leaks much less than the cedar oil alone, but retains its liquid state and can be removed very easily, unlike hard epoxies such as permasafe or gematrat. Another important statistic that was seemingly overlooked is that they reported that only 2% of stones are found to contain pure cedar wood oil. My supplier is the only dealer I know that uses it on some stones. It’s more expensive and leaks more, which may account for it being such a low percentage.

I think some people here are finding something out they didn’t know and are perhaps surprised by it and don’t know how it fits into their long held perceptions or misconceptions of emerald treatments.

With all this said, I recognize the lack of good information out there and the stigma on anything that’s not 100% organic, both of which are readily apparent in this and almost any other discussion on the subject. Few gemologists having intimate knowledge of it, complicating the matter further. That’s unfortunate, and it has stirred us to now clean and re-oil stones whenever possible with the certified pure oil just to avoid the stigma, the misconceptions, and the long explanations that comes with it. In the future we hope to do this for everything and possibly to even start oiling ourselves to remove any doubt, but it’s extremely uncommon to go to the lengths that we do even now. The hope is to just distance ourselves from any of the misconceptions that surround it, despite its very wide use and acceptance as an ethical treatment.

The stone discussed with Jereni had the typical cedar oil treatment because time did not allow for us to flush and re-oil it before we concluded our trip. We were direct and upfront about it being treated with ‘cedar wood oil’ because that’s what it is called. I think it was well intended, but to suggest we should blaze a new trail in the industry and start listing individual ingredients or additives that have pretty much always been there is again ignoring the 80% statistic above and the fact that this mix is called 'cedar wood oil' by anyone in Colombia who works with emeralds . We would have preferred to re-oil it but the fact remains that the treatment the stone contains is ethical, widely used, and was disclosed. I don't believe Jereni felt I was misleading her in any way and hopefully after hearing from me here, that's even more apparent now. Thank you for reading.

Garrett:

Welcome and thanks so much for your reply. This information is extremely helpful and serves to clarify and correct my understanding. As we discussed earlier in the thread, it is really a matter of degree of the disclosure of the amount of resin/filler that is in the stone. Knowing that cedro commercial is the majority of stones is good to know. But as lay people, its hard for us to know where the line is drawn. In other words, at one point in the mix is it no longer cedro commercial and considered an emerald with fillers? If that was quantifiable or clearer, then it wouldn't be such a concern. But nobody wants to purchase a stone under the assumption of cedar oil only to find that the its mainly a resin filler. Many of us are extremely cautious - in this case, we might have been too quick to jump to conclusions so its good that you've come to clarify. I look forward to your response. Fwiw, the information you have shared makes me think that you would be an excellent vendor for the purchase of an emerald.

 

[deskjockey]

Wow, Garrett, that was pretty informative. I'm not in the emerald market at all, but it's nice to get that kind of explanation about this stuff.

 

[pregcurious]

Thank you, Garrett. I think many of us are responding to the idea that stones are "natural" and therefore the ones that are treated with non-organic components are not as attractive from a mind-clean, or intellectual point of view. Could you please educate us on the following as I am still getting my head around additives, and am still more comfortable with cedar oil only:

1) If you remove the cedro commercial, and reoil with 100% cedar oil, will come back from GIA/AGL as being cedar oil only?
2) What is the process of oiling a stone? If I buy an emerald that has been reoiled with only cedar oil, how should I maintain that oil?

I appreciate your joining this discussion.

 

[Starzin]

I think some people here are finding something out they didn’t know and are perhaps surprised by it and don’t know how it fits into their long held perceptions or misconceptions of emerald treatments.

With all this said, I recognize the lack of good information out there and the stigma on anything that’s not 100% organic, both of which are readily apparent in this and almost any other discussion on the subject. Few gemologists having intimate knowledge of it, complicating the matter further. That’s unfortunate, and it has stirred us to now clean and re-oil stones whenever possible with the certified pure oil just to avoid the stigma, the misconceptions, and the long explanations that comes with it. In the future we hope to do this for everything and possibly to even start oiling ourselves to remove any doubt, but it’s extremely uncommon to go to the lengths that we do even now. The hope is to just distance ourselves from any of the misconceptions that surround it, despite its very wide use and acceptance as an ethical treatment.

Garrett
Thank you for taking the time to post such a gracious, informative and detailed response. The emboldened part above only further confirms your integrity as a vendor of one of the most desirable gemstones who is willing to make a change in business practices for the good of the industry and consumer knowledge and expectation.

Often Pricescope is a "way station" for people to gather information about a gemstone purchase and information such as you have provided only helps us to adjust expectations and point people to respected vendors.

One question:

When you go to the treatment lab and ask for ‘cedro’ (which translates to cedar, but refers to the a cedar wood oil mix in that 80%), you get the cedar wood oil mixed with non-natural additives for better viscosity (which reduces leakage). It’s the standard, but apparently there are two main types of this mixed used. One which is also known as ‘palma’ and another which has come to be known as ‘cedro comercial’ or commercial cedar wood oil. The main difference appears to be that the cedro comercial doesn’t suffer from the clouding or whitening as quickly. It might not cloud for possibly 10 years or more.

I personally think this is crucial information that falls into the category of "setting consumer expectations". If a client is aware that this will probably happen and their emerald will need re-oiling when it does, do you provide this service?

Thanks again.

 

[Jereni]

Garrett, thank you so much for this information, it helps immensely. Let me say first that I felt you were always very responsive and helpful in answering my questions.

I liked (and still like) that stone very much, and I only started the thread to find put more about the araldite treatment based on hard facts as much as possible. I actually attempted to go validate most of the comments here in published papers. The reason I ended up dropping off about this stone was twofold: (1) a report Chrono posted about araldite turning white after awhile, and then (2) the info that the treatment could have been entirely araldite.

Number 1 seemed confirmed through the report, so that caused me concern about needing to go back later and re-treat the stone, because if that didn't work, I would be sort of stuck. I probably should have pursued a confirmation of how easy it would be to remove araldite treatment.

Number 2 scared me off because if the treatment was mostly araldite, I interpreted that as major treatment, and have read pretty much everywhere that major treatments should be avoided. It does of course beg the question of what 'major' treatment means for emeralds and I'd love to get your or anyone else's thoughts on that question.

Thanks very much again for posting. I apologize if I caused any drama. For now I can say that I would definitely be interested if you guys start cleaning and re-oiling stones, as you mentioned was a possibility.

Edited to add: Or, if you offer a re-treating service, as Starzin asked.

 

[minousbijoux]

Bumping this in hopes we hear back from Garrett.

 

[Embassy]

Thank you for hearing me. I'm relieved my comments were well received and I can share some good info. I've been writing a bit more over the last day or so to answer some of the questions raised.

Minousbijoux wrote:

Knowing that cedro commercial is the majority of stones is good to know.

I didn’t quite say that, I said there are two main cedar wood oil variations in that 80% statistic, with the cedro comercial being the one that clouds slower over time. Regarding palma, I don't trust everything I've heard about it. Some call it an oil, some call it an epoxy resin, and some think it comes from palm trees (it doesn't). I suspect the term is being used incorrectly to describe more than one substance at times. I don't have experience with palma because as you can imagine, in Colombia, you tend to stick with the people and vendors you trust. The sources I buy from use cedro comercial or certified pure cedar oil.

at one point in the mix is it no longer cedro commercial and considered an emerald with fillers? If that was quantifiable or clearer, then it wouldn't be such a concern.

I agree that more information on this would certainly help. I’m guessing, but I would expect the various treatment options, and the composition of the oils and substances used for those options are pretty similar from treatment lab to treatment lab in Colombia. I don’t think the main concern is that the lab folks are going to use something they shouldn’t or something you didn't ask for. They’re selling a service, not the stone, and they’re going to provide exactly what they’re asked to provide. If an individual wants the typical cedarwood oil clarity enhancement on a typical stone, they’ll get that without any surprises. I see no advantage for a lab to use anything other than what’s acceptable to their immediate customer and the greater market. The real concern about treatments is more about shady merchants that dress up, fortify, or alter bad stones without disclosure with the intent to deceive. From what I’ve seen in Colombia, much of the time that sort of deception occurs with permsafe or other hard epoxies.

1) If you remove the cedro commercial, and reoil with 100% cedar oil, will come back from GIA/AGL as being cedar oil only?

Obviously I can’t speak for the labs. They probably all use a raman spectromer combined with other analysis on emeralds and would clearly see the compounds in the results. I'm sure they can discern between the predominant compound and trace residues. Most gem reports don't identify the specific substances used by named but they may classify them. We typically use the AGL and CDTEC lab reports primarily for authenticity purposes and they don’t go into too much useful detail on enhancements for this discussion unless you get the more detailed and expensive Prestige report.

My advice to anyone submitting a stone that has been purged of treatment and re-oiled is to really clean it well and advise the lab of the result you expect. You can explain that a treatment was removed and reapplied so they’ll have a much easier time dismissing any trace residues left behind (provided they are only trace residues).

2) What is the process of oiling a stone? If I buy an emerald that has been reoiled with only cedar oil, how should I maintain that oil?

Emeralds are oiled in a heated hydraulic pressure cylinder. This is not the degree of heat used on corundum but its just to thin the oil temporarily so the hydraulic pressure can then force it into the very tiny fissures in the emerald and fill any empty spaces that obstruct the passage of light internally. This treatment can be done in as little as a few hours but overnight is typical. Some stones require several oilings to fully penetrate, especially if they’ve never been oiled. Pure natural cedar oil will leak over time more readily than the oil containing araldite but the care is the same. Avoid, heat, solvents, ultrasonic cleaners, and steam. You can clean with a mild soapy water.

If a client is aware that this will probably happen and their emerald will need re-oiling when it does, do you provide this service?

Not yet. As I mentioned, I’m considering offering this service in the future (likely 2015), not just for our own use, but its apparent it would be of interest to a lot of people. With a potential complete redesign of the Embassy Emeralds website occurring possibly later this year, it’s a little lower on our ‘to do’ list for now.

I should add this about removing an emerald treatment with acetone, acid, or other solvents. The emerald material itself should remain unharmed and unaffected by it, but if the stone has been treated or altered with hard epoxies such as Permasafe, that part is going to melt away. If the stone was heavily treated, that may leave you with less ‘emerald’ than you thought you had.

 

[minousbijoux]

Very helpful. Once again, we are grateful for your responses and willingness to speak candidly here.

 

[treasurehunter]

Thanks for the reply Embassy, I also lived in colombia for about 2 years.
One question do you know if when CDTEC identifies a filler as "Cedarwood oil" is it the pure cedar wood or commercial oil ?
Regards .

 

[Embassy]

Like most labs, they don't specify the enhancement, they say something to the effect of "Indications of moderate clarity enhancement" or "without indications of clarity enhancement". I would have to believe that treatment identification services could be done upon request. CDTEC has both chemists and gemologists on staff.