twinning wisp. how exactly does it affect brilliance?

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Not enough time to reply in quotes to all the great posts here.

30years - its the back light that is wrong in my opinion.
Microscopes use too much of it too often, and louping with backlights is going to get a similar result.
its why when looking at a diamond you can get a different effect and why twinning wisps can be really good with front light in normal viewing and bad in backlight, and visa versa.

does that make sense.

Brian - I said even I cant do the hazy detection unless i am doing large parcels of stones.
doing so from photo's would be even harder.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry, I never knew inclusion order mattered in the certs. The worse inclusions are always listed first?

If the stone is say SI2 and above 1ct and TW is the only inclusion mentioned on the list that I would expect a dulling of light to be happening.
If an SI stone had say a:
crystal
feather
twinning wisp

In that order
Then it would not be an issue.

A VS with twinning wisps is unlikely to present any problem.
Twinning wisps are usually marked so badly that dealers have trouble selling them.
But here is a thread where I show a bad e.g. with reduced brilliance https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-with-this-twinning-wisp-inclusion-pictures.192126/

correct

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry, I never knew inclusion order mattered in the certs. The worse inclusions are always listed first?

If the stone is say SI2 and above 1ct and TW is the only inclusion mentioned on the list that I would expect a dulling of light to be happening.
If an SI stone had say a:
crystal
feather
twinning wisp

In that order
Then it would not be an issue.

A VS with twinning wisps is unlikely to present any problem.
Twinning wisps are usually marked so badly that dealers have trouble selling them.
But here is a thread where I show a bad e.g. with reduced brilliance https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-with-this-twinning-wisp-inclusion-pictures.192126/

correct

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

To answer Garry, the backlighting does affect the grade call at GiA, and that's what makes twinning wisp stones a good low clarity stone.

 

[John P]

John, I am cackling like a loon in my cubicle, thank you

Haha. Nice. I was actually on an airplane when I made the graphic... The guy next to me kept peeking and I could almost see a big pink question mark over his head about whatever it was I was putting together.

 

[John P]

To answer Garry, the backlighting does affect the grade call at GiA, and that's what makes twinning wisp stones a good low clarity stone.

As a manufacturer this is very true. Everyone has said "each diamond must be considered on its own." and I'll echo that. But with that said, benign twinning wisps are certainly a favorite inclusion in terms of implications versus value.

 

[John P]

...I have had the pleasure of sitting down with a client and letting John do the explanation about what the client is seeing twice over the many years that I have known him. Both times I have come away with still another new tool in my arsenal of knowledge, things I already knew wrapped up in a way that the "EveryMan" could easily understand without years of study...Wink

Wow. I appreciate the awesome drive-by compliment Wink. I remember Leonard Bernstein saying "When I teach I learn, and when I learn I teach." It's so true, and I learn constantly from the members of this community - yourself included of course. The fantastic thing about the diamond industry is the epic amount of information and insight that's out there. Every day brings something new.

It should also be inspiring to the prosumers here that with a passionate interest in the field, a sincere desire to lift others up, and the innate ability to teach, the sky is the limit. John is one-of-kind and few will be able to duplicate his accomplishments, but he shines a bright light on what is possible.

Bryan, this is possibly one of the kindest things I've ever heard. You made my day. Thank you.

 

[Mark2014]

Since several true experts gathered in this thread, can I please ask your opinion? As mentioned above and displayed, my AGS0000-H-SI2 graded stone was called I1 by the independent appraiser I visited a few days ago. She did not use a loupe, however, but was using a microscope. Furthermore, she did say she didn't really want to challenge AGS but still... I will copy again the pictures of my stone and what has been said about it so far:

Mark, the plots do not necessarily show all the wisps, so you really can't tell from that. .... .... You can send the stone to an independent appraiser such as Neil Beatty or David Atlas, etc. and have them evaluate it if you cannot access that from your stone seller.

Mark, If this diamond you speak of had a GIA or AGS report, I would tend to discount the independent appraisers opinion. There are many out there who feel they have to grade tougher than the lab to "earn their keep."
In my opinion, the goal of the independent appraiser should be to grade consistently with the grade of the GIA, since it is the GIA's grading system. Wink

I agree that this is a very worthwhile discussion on a number of levels. I think the issue of trying to derive info out of reflector images that they are not designed to do is an important point as Rhino points out.

I understand the sense of frustration coming out in some of the posts about there not being a quantifiable way to communicate to what extent clarity features diminish light performance. The main takeaway is that the lower down the clarity scale you go, the broader the category. So if you are considering Si2 there is a much greater need for careful attention. Reading the cert correctly in terms of the main grade setting features helps, but it is important for the consumer to inspect the diamond themselves, and if possible get a consultation from a professional with a trained eye.

I agree that twinning wisps can in some ways be a good type of inclusion to look for, as both Wink and Rhino have stated. We rarely see visible performance issues with them, but then we do not work with that many Si2s. It's more of an issue with cloud based Si grades, specifically Si stones with the comment on the cert "clarity based upon clouds not shown". That is usually an indication of a large cloud area and sometimes it will have a negative performance impact, even though the feature cannot be seen with the naked eye.

Lastly, a local jeweler that saw the stone in person as well also called it an I1 (and swears GIA would grade it I1 as well), and he even says I should pay $5k-$6k less than what I paid. As I am still in the return window you can understand my doubt/sadness/frustration. I really thought I had the ideal stone for me, and I also really like it, however, knowing that I seriously may have overpaid just doesn't sit well...

I am even considering going to a second independent appraiser. What would you do?

Here is a video I took myself: http://youtu.be/XkiDzeZWank

 

[WinkHPD]

Personally, I would look at the diamond.

If I loved it I would keep it.

If I did not, I would return it.

If the jeweler has a diamond that is of equal quality and beauty that is 5 or 6 k less money and you like it better I would buy it.

If he does not have one and can not find one right now, he is just bad mouthing it because he can and wants to kill off your purchase from another merchant.

I once sold a diamond to a young man on Friday. On Monday he called wanting his money back because another retailer quoted him $200 less for the diamond, or he wanted me to drop my price by $200. I told him to be sure to get the other guy to deliver the diamond to him since I already owned the diamond that he was buying.

He called me back and said that diamond was actually out right now, but they had others that were similar. I laughed and told him that the diamond had never been seen by the guy that was offering it to him as the wholesaler I bought it from would not sell to him because he was a slow pay. I further said that when I wanted to sell a diamond I did not have that it was always at least $400 cheaper. He finally got it that I owned the diamond and that the other retailer was playing a stupid game and kept the diamond.

You have the diamond in YOUR hands. You said YOUR eyes like it. Do not be fooled into not liking it because others want to make you doubt your eyes.

Either keep it or return it, but do it because YOU like it or not.

That is what I would do.

Wink

 

[n00bdiamond]

As the OP of this thread, I want to express my gratitude for all the wonderful information that everyone provided in this thread. Rarely do I see vendors outside of Good old gold, whiteflash, and brian gavin, and james allen recommended by most posts but after this thread I added a few more vendors to my list including high performance diamonds and crafted by infinity (thanks John and Wink). Expect to hear from me soon in person....I have another purchase to make (oddly enough the diamond i purchased for my fiance is not going to fly well with my mom if she has an inferior diamond during our wedding so my dad has to fork up something better and bigger lol).

 

[Mark2014]

You have the diamond in YOUR hands. You said YOUR eyes like it. Do not be fooled into not liking it because others want to make you doubt
Wink

Thanks Wink. I really appreciate your time in writing out your opinion. I think in my case it is not just about if I like the diamond or not (which I indeed do). It's that the INDEPENDENT appraiser said it was an I1. The local jeweler might play on this piece of information but they did predict it prior to me seeing the appraiser. I also have to say I really like the attitude and fighting spirit of the local jeweler. I am seriously contemplating sending this diamond to a second independent appraiser. I have been searching the PS archives and clearly "lab shopping" is not uncommon... As much as I like the diamond, I do not want to be misled.

 

[WinkHPD]

I will not say that GIA is never wrong, but they have three graders look at each diamond. It is their system and they set the standards.

I tend to give them more credibility than a competing retailer, but, it is easy for me, as it is not my money on the line.

Still. If your retailer can get you the same grade diamond for 6k less, get him to do it quickly while you are still in your return period. If not, he has been asked to put or shut up and he has not put up.

There are many highly respected Pricescope appraisers here. Neil Beaty is one of the best. His screen name is DenverAppraiser.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

As the OP of this thread, I want to express my gratitude for all the wonderful information that everyone provided in this thread. Rarely do I see vendors outside of Good old gold, whiteflash, and brian gavin, and james allen recommended by most posts but after this thread I added a few more vendors to my list including high performance diamonds and crafted by infinity (thanks John and Wink). Expect to hear from me soon in person....I have another purchase to make (oddly enough the diamond i purchased for my fiance is not going to fly well with my mom if she has an inferior diamond during our wedding so my dad has to fork up something better and bigger lol).

Your kind words are greatly appreciated!

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Update,
I am half way through a 2 day synthetic / lab grown diamond prac course and have been using my new LED / UV light loupe and with the 6 LED lights difused around the lens I now have a really effective front lit 10X loupe.
I am blown away!

I cant wait to look at stones with twinning wisps because I suspect that about half will be better than GIA thinks (and possibly up to half will be worse).
it is a great new experiance - and you can check light return too - it will need some practice, but in effect i have a standardised lighting environment in my pocket!

 

[n00bdiamond]

Gary I would love to see a new thread with posted pics of your analysis. I think many of us would appreciate it! Thanks again for all your useful insights!

 

[Mark2014]

I will not say that GIA is never wrong, but they have three graders look at each diamond. It is their system and they set the standards.

I tend to give them more credibility than a competing retailer, but, it is easy for me, as it is not my money on the line.

Still. If your retailer can get you the same grade diamond for 6k less, get him to do it quickly while you are still in your return period. If not, he has been asked to put or shut up and he has not put up.

There are many highly respected Pricescope appraisers here. Neil Beaty is one of the best. His screen name is DenverAppraiser.

Wink

Thanks (again) Wink. Please note, you speak of GIA but my stone was graded SI2 by AGS. I don't know if that really matters in making your point but I would prefer to be really clear. From what I learned/understood, AGS is the most strict on cut and color but GIA is more strict on clarity. Am I correct in my understanding?