Two VERY different appraisals for the same diamond! What to do??

[doctranod]

Hi! I want to thank everyone in advance for all the information.

I have a diamond that was purchased as a 1.51 E VS2, slight blue fluorescence. I had two independent appraisals done and they are VERY different! The first appraised the diamond as a 1.51 I-J, SI1, strong blue fluorescence. The second appraisal reported the diamond as an E VS2. The appraisals differ by nearly $10,000! Do I get a third appraisal? Who do I believe? Or do I go back to where I purchased the diamond and talk to the jeweler???

Your advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[kenny]

Which lab graded the stone?
Did either appraiser see the lab report or have any way of knowing the grades it had?

How did you select these appraisers?
Are they both GG (graduate gemologist from GIA training)?
Do they sell diamonds?

 

[yssie]

Whoa! Was there wine involved?



Kenny asks good questions. I would take it to one of the appraisers listed under "resources" for peace of mind.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/4/2010 1:59:17 AM
Author:doctranod
Hi! I want to thank everyone in advance for all the information.

I have a diamond that was purchased as a 1.51 E VS2, slight blue fluorescence. I had two independent appraisals done and they are VERY different! The first appraised the diamond as a 1.51 I-J, SI1, strong blue fluorescence. The second appraisal reported the diamond as an E VS2. The appraisals differ by nearly $10,000! Do I get a third appraisal? Who do I believe? Or do I go back to where I purchased the diamond and talk to the jeweler???

Your advice is greatly appreciated!

how much did you paid?

did the stone come with a GIA or AGS lab report?

 

[doctranod]

It is an EGL graded diamond. Both appraisers had the certificate, both appraisers specialize in selling diamonds and each have 25-30 years experience in the diamond business.

 

[kenny]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:12:11 AM
Author: doctranod
It is an EGL graded diamond.

EGL.
That explains it; This NOT an E VS2 stone.

EGL is a soft lab.
They give higher grades to diamonds than GIA and AGS would.
This is astonishing and disgusting, but true.

A competent appraiser will grade to GIA standards.

Did you buy this stone?
If so can you return it?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:12:11 AM
Author: doctranod
It is an EGL graded diamond. Both appraisers had the certificate, both appraisers specialize in selling diamonds and each have 25-30 years experience in the diamond business.

which EGL lab?

 

[kenny]

EGL USA?
EGL Europe?
EGL Israel?

 

[doctranod]

I had read that EGL was less "stringent" on grading, but I did not expect them to be that far off on diamond color. I was not surprised to see that someone else graded it as a SI1.

The vendor has a 30 day return policy...so I can definitely return it. I know that I didn''t pay what a GIA diamond would have cost. The diamond is a beautiful H&A cut (I can even see it if the lighting is right). I just want to know what the diamond REALLY is for my own peace of mind.

 

[doctranod]

Looking at the certificate...it is EGL Europe.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:20:49 AM
Author: doctranod
I had read that EGL was less ''stringent'' on grading, but I did not expect them to be that far off on diamond color. I was not surprised to see that someone else graded it as a SI1.

The vendor has a 30 day return policy...so I can definitely return it. I know that I didn''t pay what a GIA diamond would have cost. The diamond is a beautiful H&A cut (I can even see it if the lighting is right). I just want to know what the diamond REALLY is for my own peace of mind.

post the price then i''ll tell ya.

 

[kristie]

Well.....unless there is alcohol involved, that is bizarre that two appraisers would have such huge differences. Also, I find it off that one appraiser said it was an I-J.....usually they state one or the other not both. If they have a master grading set, it would be one or the other.

You said that BOTH of these appraisers also specialize in selling diamonds?? Mistake number one.....go to an INDEPENDENT appraiser that does not sell anything, especially diamonds. Most people that sell diamonds will tell you that they are also appraisers......not so.

Unless you are in love with this stone, send it back to the vendor and get a GIA or AGS graded diamond after checking out the measurements here

EGL stones cost less because they are worth less.....as another poster said, an EGL E/VS2 is worth the same as an I/SI1 GIA diamond because they are the same stone....different grading, different papers....KWIM?

 

[kenny]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:20:49 AM
Author: doctranod
I had read that EGL was less 'stringent' on grading, but I did not expect them to be that far off on diamond color. I was not surprised to see that someone else graded it as a SI1.

I know that I didn't pay what a GIA diamond would have cost.

See, that's the thing; people say GIA diamonds cost more.
Maybe GIA would have graded it I SI1 and it would have cost the same as what you paid.
You were told it was E VS2 by a grading lab, but it isn't.

IMHO you didn't get a more affordable stone than a GIA stone, you were just lied to by EGL.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:12:11 AM
Author: doctranod
It is an EGL graded diamond. Both appraisers had the certificate, both appraisers specialize in selling diamonds and each have 25-30 years experience in the diamond business.

What I would do is get an opinion from an appraiser that does not sell diamonds to make sure the opinion is truly neutral, you can use this tool to find an appraiser in your area,

appraiser listing.

 

[doctranod]

Dancing fire...I could tell you the price, but then I''d have to kill you...just kidding. I paid about $9300. I know...if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is! My husband purchased a D, SI1 for me 9 years ago that was graded by EGL and it was ICY WHITE. Must have been the ONE RARE diamond they graded right.

Kristie...I looked for independent appraisers, but am having trouble finding one in my area. I''ll keep searching. I only have another few weeks before the "trial period" is up...so I may have to work fast.

 

[doctranod]

Thanks Lorelei. I actually used this tool, but the closest appraiser is nearly 2 hours away. I don''t think I can afford the time to drive there and back.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:30:05 AM
Author: doctranod
Dancing fire...I could tell you the price, but then I'd have to kill you...just kidding. I paid about $9300. I know...if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is! My husband purchased a D, SI1 for me 9 years ago that was graded by EGL and it was ICY WHITE. Must have been the ONE RARE diamond they graded right.

Kristie...I looked for independent appraisers, but am having trouble finding one in my area. I'll keep searching. I only have another few weeks before the 'trial period' is up...so I may have to work fast.

now i can tell you

a true H&A well cut E VS2 1.51ct from GIA would be more like $15-16k.

eta; an F can still look ICY WHITE

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:32:16 AM
Author: doctranod
Thanks Lorelei. I actually used this tool, but the closest appraiser is nearly 2 hours away. I don''t think I can afford the time to drive there and back.

Ok no problem. I don''t know what to tell you....If it was me I would be extremely concerned about the huge variation between appraisals and also the impartiality of each appraiser. Did you look at any GIA or AGS graded diamonds?

 

[doctranod]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:53:12 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/4/2010 2:32:16 AM

Author: doctranod


Ok no problem. I don''t know what to tell you....If it was me I would be extremely concerned about the huge variation between appraisals and also the impartiality of each appraiser. Did you look at any GIA or AGS graded diamonds?

I wanted at least a 1.51 diamond, with cut being the priority and GIA and AGS were way past our budget. Since I had an EGL graded diamond in the past that we were VERY happy with...so I had very little reservation about buying another EGL graded stone.

The diamonds specs are:

7.30 x 7.23 x 4.58
Depth: 63%
Table: 57%
Crown: 15%
Pavillion" 43%
Girdle: medium, faceted

I''m having a tough time determining the color myself. Sometimes it looks white, sometimes there is a hint of yellow...and of course it changes with the lighting that I am in. I''ve been dragging this poor diamond everywhere I can to check it out in different lighting conditions!

 

[doctranod]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:53:12 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/4/2010 2:32:16 AM


Ok no problem. I don''t know what to tell you....If it was me I would be extremely concerned about the huge variation between appraisals and also the impartiality of each appraiser. Did you look at any GIA or AGS graded diamonds?

I wanted at least a 1.51 diamond, with cut being the priority and GIA and AGS were way past our budget. Since I had an EGL graded diamond in the past that we were VERY happy with...so I had very little reservation about buying another EGL graded stone.

The diamonds specs are:

7.30 x 7.23 x 4.58
Depth: 63%
Table: 57%
Crown: 15%
Pavillion" 43%
Girdle: medium, faceted

I''m having a tough time determining the color myself. Sometimes it looks white, sometimes there is a hint of yellow...and of course it changes with the lighting that I am in. I''ve been dragging this poor diamond everywhere I can to check it out in different lighting conditions!

 

[yssie]

Ah, that explains enough, then.


You did not receive a GIA/AGS-worthy E VS2, but then, you did not pay for one.


Do you like the stone? If you're happy with it and you're happy with the price you paid... perhaps consider just keeping it without any more fuss. If you have concerns, however, take it to an independent appraiser, one who will give you no biased reason to doubt your purchase - as you said, it's a $10k difference, and that peace of mind ought to be well worth a two hour drive.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/4/2010 3:03:48 AM
Author: doctranod

Date: 3/4/2010 2:53:12 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/4/2010 2:32:16 AM


Ok no problem. I don''t know what to tell you....If it was me I would be extremely concerned about the huge variation between appraisals and also the impartiality of each appraiser. Did you look at any GIA or AGS graded diamonds?

I wanted at least a 1.51 diamond, with cut being the priority and GIA and AGS were way past our budget. Since I had an EGL graded diamond in the past that we were VERY happy with...so I had very little reservation about buying another EGL graded stone.

The diamonds specs are:

7.30 x 7.23 x 4.58
Depth: 63%
Table: 57%
Crown: 15%
Pavillion'' 43%
Girdle: medium, faceted

I''m having a tough time determining the color myself. Sometimes it looks white, sometimes there is a hint of yellow...and of course it changes with the lighting that I am in. I''ve been dragging this poor diamond everywhere I can to check it out in different lighting conditions!

not a good number.

the cutter wanted to be sure that this stone will weight at least 1.50ct.

 

[Cinna]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:32:16 AM
Author: doctranod
Thanks Lorelei. I actually used this tool, but the closest appraiser is nearly 2 hours away. I don''t think I can afford the time to drive there and back.

For piece of mind, I''m driving about two hours to an independent appraiser for my diamond. The closest one is actually about an hour and ten but I would rather go to a trusted one that I know has amazing reviews so made some time during the really early hours of a morning on the weekend, made time in my schedule to make an appointment and am going in. I would still call and see if there is a time you can work out and see if you can.

 

[denverappraiser]

I would start by talking to the selling jeweler about your concerns. The difference you see in value conclusions is almost always driven by one or both of two issues. First is the description of the item and second is the choice of marketplace to describe. In your case, the description is clearly the bulk of the issue. E-J is an important range.

Your dealer has chosen EGL-Belgium as their expert and if you don’t trust them, your options are to either to spike the deal entirely for that reason alone or choose someone who you DO trust. Choosing a more-or-less random pool of gemologists who are in competition with the seller and then selecting the most popular answer is, in my opinion, a nutty approach. You’re hiring an expert to assist you in making an important decision, make the choice based on their credentials, their tools, the results of an interview process, referrals or whatever else you want to use but gemologists are not all the same. When you’ve chosen an advisor that you think you can believe; believe them. If you don’t think you can believe them; refuse to hire them.

As has been pointed out above, based purely on the price and the dealer’s choice of documentation we have a pretty good clue that this isn’t an E/VS2. You apparently already knew that and your question boils down to asking how wrong a ‘certificate’ and a dealer can be. Perhaps THAT deserves some research along with your research into your choice of experts. There’s been quite a bit of discussion here in the forum about it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[doctranod]

When I put the specs of the diamond into the HCA tool, the diamond comes back with a 1.4 rating. Good, right? I really like the diamond. Mentally, I don''t "LOVE" it because an appraiser told me it might not be worth what I paid for it. Did I over pay for this diamond if it is truly an I/J SI1? The diamond doesn''t know who graded it. Whether it is EGL or GIA...whatever the grading...is it still worth what I paid? Or should I keep searching??? In diffuse morning light, it looks as white as my wedding dress the day I wore it. As the day wears on...it looks a little more yellow (not exactly to my liking)...but it could just be the lighting!

I will have to work out a way to get to an independent. Sounds like that is the only good solution here.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 3/4/2010 2:24:39 AM
Author: kristie
Well.....unless there is alcohol involved, that is bizarre that two appraisers would have such huge differences. Also, I find it off that one appraiser said it was an I-J.....usually they state one or the other not both. If they have a master grading set, it would be one or the other.

You said that BOTH of these appraisers also specialize in selling diamonds?? Mistake number one.....go to an INDEPENDENT appraiser that does not sell anything, especially diamonds. Most people that sell diamonds will tell you that they are also appraisers......not so.

Unless you are in love with this stone, send it back to the vendor and get a GIA or AGS graded diamond after checking out the measurements here

EGL stones cost less because they are worth less.....as another poster said, an EGL E/VS2 is worth the same as an I/SI1 GIA diamond because they are the same stone....different grading, different papers....KWIM?

This is a common misconception in our industry. When grading a mounted stone it is often impossible to be certain what the color grade is, especially when it is near a border.

When I entered the trade back in the 1970''s the GIA actually used to issue reports with split grades when a stone was at the border. Then during the investment craze the diamond vendors raised a huge fuss over this as it was impossible to sell a borderline stone and GIA went to making a definite call rather than the split grades.

Our OP does not say whether or not the stone is mounted, so I may be wrong about whether the gem is mounted or not.

However, when we get our master sets we often do not have stones on the borders of a grade, so it can be difficult to call it exactly even with a set.

For example, my master set has an F color that is near the border of E, so if the stone I am grading is better than my F then it is either an E or a D. Then I have a G-H split grade, an I-J split grade, a j-K split grade and an L. Modern sets are only made with a maximum of two split grades, which in my opinion hampers the usefulness of the set, but for what ever reason that is the current requirement for a new set being graded.

A master set only has to be three stones although I wish my five stone set had more and if I had my way they would all be split grades so that I could know precisely if the stone was better then it had to be x and if not, then Y. As you might imagine, as big as the gaps are with my 5 stone set, with a 3 stone set it would be even harder to call a stone exactly, especially when it is near the border of one grade or another.

Add to this the fact that after 10:00AM in the morning, or on a day when you did not get a good day''s rest your eyes will not see the same as they would have earlier in the day or when you were well rested and you can have a plethora of reasons why you might issue a split grade to a stone, and properly so. For an exact determination you can send it to a gem lab where they have many stones in their master set, but also master sets in various sizes. Hard to compare a half carat diamond to a three carat diamond and make a fully accurate color comparrison. For only a couple of hundred thousand dollars an appraiser might compile a truly worthy set of sets of master sets, but where or where is he to come up with the money to do so?

And who would pay fairly to have him use them?

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/4/2010 9:58:45 AM
Author: doctranod
When I put the specs of the diamond into the HCA tool, the diamond comes back with a 1.4 rating. Good, right? I really like the diamond. Mentally, I don't 'LOVE' it because an appraiser told me it might not be worth what I paid for it. Did I over pay for this diamond if it is truly an I/J SI1? The diamond doesn't know who graded it. Whether it is EGL or GIA...whatever the grading...is it still worth what I paid? Or should I keep searching??? In diffuse morning light, it looks as white as my wedding dress the day I wore it. As the day wears on...it looks a little more yellow (not exactly to my liking)...but it could just be the lighting!


I will have to work out a way to get to an independent. Sounds like that is the only good solution here.

I agree, it's not the lab that makes a beautiful stone beautiful.

The dealers in the database here are offering GIA documented 1.51-1.55/J/SI1 for prices ranging from about $6,000 to about $9,000. You can search the database yourself using the box at the top of the page titled 'diamond prices'.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[doctranod]

Date: 3/4/2010 9:47:13 AM
Author: denverappraiser
I would start by talking to the selling jeweler about your concerns. The difference you see in value conclusions is almost always driven by one or both of two issues. First is the description of the item and second is the choice of marketplace to describe. In your case, the description is clearly the bulk of the issue. E-J is an important range.

I have talked to the selling jeweler and he agrees that this variation in color range is not acceptable. He had told me that he had viewed the diamond and said he thought it was more of an "E" than the other EGL "E''s" we were contemplating. He had NOT, however, compared the diamond to his master set...and did not verify it before it was shipped to me.

I think that "trust" is something that can only be earned and experienced over time (or found at this forum!). Time is something I don''t have the luxury of right now. So-- I will have to go by my gut!

Thanks everyone for the GREAT input! This really helps!

 

[denverappraiser]

Trust is a problem in many industries but it seems to be especially difficult with diamonds. Most people don’t buy very many and therefore most don’t get a lot of experience either themselves or in choosing advisers. That said, you have no real option. You are buying what amounts to a blind item and you are required to either train and equip yourself to be an expert or to rely on others to do it for you (or both).

The classic advice is to rely on GIA and/or AGSL for grading, on the selling dealer to put the deal and the ring together, and an independent appraiser for quality control on both of the above. You’ve opted against this because you count that by avoiding GIA and using the dealer’s advice (and their chosen lab), you can save some money. That may be true and it may work out just fine but you’ve dropped your trust in GIA and replaced it with increased trust in the dealer. Again, that’s fine but you’re now second guessing the dealer and wanting to replace your trust in them with a ‘3 out of 4 surveyed’ sort of approach using competitors or with free advice from the Internet. This is the step that strikes me as especially dangerous. Since you must trust someone, it strikes me as being terribly important to know who that is, where’ they’re coming from, and to put some thought into why you chose them.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver