Ultimatum

[Octavia]

Date: 12/7/2008 8:23:15 PM
Author: laughwithme
I guess my question (for everybody) is...


Where is the love??


This post and all responses were about timing and guidelines... whatever happened to being so madly in love with one person, you'd be willing to wait till the end of time?


Don't get me wrong, I want B to propose asap and marriage is important to me, but if it came to no marriage as long as he could still be in my life, we would do that.


I am in love with him, forever. There is no deadline associated.

Thankfully I didn't have to worry about this, but I do want to present the flip side of the coin. I believe in marriage before children, not for any particular religious reasons, but for social and legal ones. Therefore, if I wanted a family, I wouldn't have waited around forever. I couldn't have afforded to. A good friend of mine who feels the same way recently left her long-time boyfriend, in large part because they weren't on the same page about marriage and children, and she's at an age where she can't wait around on someone who doesn't share her values. This also seems to be the OP's concern, and I think it's a valid one. There's a point where compromise becomes sacrifice, and the sacrifices people are willing to make will vary.

I suppose it helps if you don't believe there's only one right person out there, and that it's possible to leave a relationship with someone you love and eventually find another relationship with someone else you love that just works better.

That said, I don't think I ever would have given a set-date ultimatum. But eventually I would have set an internal timeline, as NEL suggested. And although I'm speaking hypothetically, but that doesn't make it any less true from my own point of view.

ETA: cross-post with trillionaire, and I agree with everything she said, too.

 

[Justgotmarried]

Here is my two cents. You can love someone, and I mean REALLY love someone but have to move on. I was in this same situation. I dropped my life and moved to another state to be with my ex. I told him from day one that I was not there to play house but was looking for a relationship that would eventually end in a marriage and family. I also told him that if at any time he felt that this was not what he wanted to let me know so that i could make an informed decision. One year went by. Two years went by.. and all along I was caring for his two young children and paying most of the bills. I finally sat him down and tried to have a really nice (non confrontational ) heart-to-heart with him. He said he was not going to talk about it. He had to wait until his youngest was at least 8 (at the time he was 2) and maybe we'll get engaged. And then it was when he got a better job (which he did). Or when we got a better apartment (WHich I got us). The excuses were endless. So, I told him that although I loved him and cared for him, if I did not see our relationship moving to that next stage of committment within the next year, I cannot stay. He yelled and left the room. I gave myself a date. Trust me, when that date came, the moving van was ready and I was out of there. He called me and instead of asking what had happened, he wanted to know if I was still babysiting that night!

Right after I left him, I met my husband. This man knew what he wanted; we were engagged within 6 months (and I did not have to drag him to the alter. Actually I told him at the begining that we would just see how things go. However he told me from the very begining what his intensions were and he was not playing around!

I am happily married to the most wonderful,caring and handsome man in the world. I am now planning for a family...something that I was worried that I would not be able to do if I waited around any longer (I was already 33 when I left my ex).

So my advice is "to thine own self be true." It's your life and your future.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 12/7/2008 10:35:04 PM
Author: Octavia

I suppose it helps if you don't believe there's only one right person out there, and that it's possible to leave a relationship with someone you love and eventually find another relationship with someone else you love that just works better.

I agree with Octavia too

I also don't believe in soulmates, so that probably makes it easier to believe in timelines and ultimatums. Love is not enough.

ETA: cross posted with JustMarried but I agree 100% with everything she said. You have to love YOURSELF.

 

[mariewest]

After four years, yeah he should know if he wants to be with you and then take those actions to make it happen. Ultimatum makes it sound like your forcing him, but it''s more like letting him know what''s up. It would be unrealistic to think that a girl is going to wait around forever. This has been on my mind lately. It''s not like you told him last week you want a ring or you walk, it''s been 2.5 years! I think after four years I would leave the relationship too. Like you, I too want to have a child before the age of 30. I have plans and I can''t wait for someone else to be ready if they are not going to be, I can''t make them... so on to the next who is ready. I wish you luck though, because it seems like it''s coming up fast and he may not even be aware of it... or care! I would hate to think that you wasted your time. That''s just my fear in my relationship. From the very start the both of us stated that we don''t want to waste our time, and I don''t think that we are, but it''s always in the back of your mind.

 

[MissDimity]

radiantquest, Octavia, babygirl, mariewest: I think you guys get the reason why I would set a timeline. I do believe in marriage before children. I am myself, the result of a relationship of two people who dated consistently for 13 years and never married, and then my father left just before I was born leaving my mother to raise me alone with the support of her parents. My mother was left isolated in parent groups as she was unmarried ( in her 30s) and had a child, she was also sometimes un-invited to social events with other couples with kids, because she was not a couple and did not fit in. Times have changed.. and there are more single parents, even in the upper-middle class area where I grew up. I thus believe in marriage before children.

Even though, I love my SO so much (more than I have never loved anyone in the past) and consider him a soul mate. I don''t believe out of the billions and billions of people on earth he is the only one for me.

When I said to my boyfriend 1.5 years into our relationship that I expected a proposal before 4 years of dating because I didn''t want to date him forever ever without it leading to marriage. I knew marriage was on the cards, and that realistically a proposal would be possible in that time frame

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 12/6/2008 2:50:39 PM
Author: Nocturnius

As for your ultimatum, I'm a little concerned. You should NEVER base your lives off of what his ex is doing, or what their relationship was like. She is an ex for a reason.

I agree with NEL that an internal deadline is the more dignified response. It worked for me, although it caused a lot of angst at the time (and I have had to walk away twice) when I look back I realise that the guys I was worrying over had absolutely no intention of doing 'the right thing' by me, and neither of them have committed to a woman even ten years later. One of them (the original ex) has tied up a girl in a house-buying relationship, her biological clock has worn her into a nervous wreck and still he 'can't see the point'.

For this reason, I totally disagree with Noc. Sure, the ex might have laughed too loud or whatever. But if your man was with her for a significant length of time, it is quite reasonable to assume that it is likely the break up had a lot to do with his behaviour, not hers.

I think the OP is wise to be aware and informed by his previous behaviour in relationship.
Doesn't mean she doesn't love him, but for a woman to basically have to leave at the age of 30 means something to me. I left a man a few months before my own 30th birthday, (leaving it to the last gasp, as I had already put so much in) moved onto a friends couch, and it was a 100% totally foul experience. It decimated me financially, emotionally and spiritually. I will not be encouraging my little girl to be too trusting in relationship.

Gawd, talk about serious posts from me recently!

 

[AdiS]

Why would I give an ultimatum? If I want to be with someone for the rest of my life, then the only thing that matters is being with him, not marriage and not children. Of course, that's just my humble opinion, and luckily DH and I were both equally eager to get married.

Sorry, but you say you want to have your first child before 30. Does it matter whose child that would be? You want to have your SO's child or you just want to have a baby? You want to have enough time to find a suitable other SO to fulfill your maternal dream if worst comes to worst. So, obviously that would be a no to the first question.

Or you say you could not think of anything worse than being in your early 30's desperate to find a man to settle down and start a family. You see, I really don't want to be harsh or rude, but you sound more desperate to settle down and have a child than to actually marry your SO and have his child. Hence-the ultimatums. If he's the right man for you, then why would you try to force him? What does "if worst comes to worst" mean to you-being without your SO or just being in your early 30's and single?

 

[LaraOnline]

I can see what you're saying Adis, but I think a true love will also consider what his partner wants in her life. I think it is quite reasonable to aim for having a child before fertility issues raise their head.
Whether that turns out in real life is another thing, but 'running the gauntlet' is unpleasant.

It is not a question of 'find a man, any man', but of not wasting time on an also-ran.
I'm aware my original post and my attitude might come across as a little harsh. It's not meant to be. If a live-in lifestyle is good, and he is unselfish generally, and she is undemanding generally (not a bad recipe), life will run on smoothly enough. I mean, men and women were kinda made to get along domestically, weren't they.

But if he's not considering your feelings as well as his own, you kind of have to venture back out into the wilderness don't you.
Lots of men marry for love, I found one. Lots of men allow their women to have kids because they are unselfish enough to want what their woman wants. Mine did. My man proposed within three months. It's been fantastic. Who would want to deprive themselves of a similar, life-affirming experience? But the timing was probably right. His last girlfriend seemed great. What was wrong with her? Nothing that I could see. I feel bad that he didn't have enough time for her, it seems unfair, or false advertising or something. But I guess at the end of the day we must suit each other better, she was way keener on him than he was on her. So why get involved then? Hmmm..

It's better not to end up like the current girlfriend of my ex. She has really burst her boiler over it. I don't think he's really her knight in shining armour for doing that to her. I feel I escaped a similar experience (with the next guy) by the skin of my teeth. He's not doing anything too 'go-gettem' useful now, although he has cleaned up his act a lot. He's a nice person (aren't they all) but he's not a family guy.

I think it's best not to be too complacent. If it goes bad, in hindsight it can look like niavety. People tend to be motivated by self-interest, after all. You might see something in a guy that doesn't exist IRL.

I'm aware that marriage, in and of itself, is merely a piece of paper if your man is not good to you... but marriage can give you benefits and rights - and respect - that is not available to other women.

I guess the extra responsibility is what can put a man off. Because men do take marriage seriously... if they are the bread-winner, it can cost them big time. Also, and this is really the central issue for men I think, men tend to marry if they want kids or are happy to accept kids... and hold off if they don't, or don't yet(especially if they think the girlfriend wants kids!!)

As you can see, this is kinda a big issue for me!

I'll try and refrain, sorry, it's only my opinion, I know.

 

[AdiS]

Lara, I do agree with most of what you say. Of course, if he''s not considering your feelings you have to run as fast as you can and never look back. But I don''t think that''s the issue here. And as a happily married woman I do believe in marriage. Just not in marriage above all. Same goes with children. I don''t want to have any children-I want to have my husband''s children...eventually. And an ultimatum (married by 29, having a baby before 30, for example) means exactly this-''find a man, any man''. Just my humble opinion as I already said.

 

[LaraOnline]

Yeah, life is not join-the-dots, is it.
It''s kind of a mix of luck and fate and good management. I probably didn''t really have the personality for marriage earlier. Or, I would have wanted to marry, and then desperately wanted to do a runner or something! A relationship is like a cocktail, isn''t it... more than the sum of its parts...

 

[AdiS]

Date: 12/8/2008 9:25:56 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Yeah, life is not join-the-dots, is it.
It''s kind of a mix of luck and fate and good management. I probably didn''t really have the personality for marriage earlier. Or, I would have wanted to marry, and then desperately wanted to do a runner or something! A relationship is like a cocktail, isn''t it... more than the sum of its parts...

Spot on! I let my accountant do the numbers and calculations. I do the living

 

[aliciagirl]

I''ve never given an ultimatum and I don''t think I ever would. Pressuring someone to get what I want is just not a way that I could ever be. That''s not to say that I wouldn''t set an internal timeline and stick to it if marriage was important.

For me, I love my FI and I wanted to be with him forever. Ring or no ring. Marriage or no marriage. Maybe I''m in a different camp than most because I would be just as happy being together and not being married as I would be being married. When he finally proposed, one thing he told me he really appreciated was that I didn''t put any pressure on him. He said there was no question in his mind about whether I was "the one" or if he wanted to be with me, but he just needed his own time to plan a proposal and be ready.

Other guys, on the other hand, kind of need a kick in the butt to get going. You know your SO best and it''s kind of too late to take back your ultimatum. You really do need to be ready to leave if he doesn''t follow through, though.

 

[Thomperchik]

I just want to share my personal experience with you, and please understand that we are all different.

In my previous relationship I dated someone for four years. I loved him with all of my heart and I must admit that he was my first love. I always thought that if you''re with someone for that long, wouldn''t they know by the 2nd or 3rd or 4th year whether or not they want to spend the rest of their life with you? I think I got stuck in that mind frame. I based our relationship on time and how long we had been together, instead of whether or not we were actually compatible with each other. So instead of figuring out what I/he wanted, I gave him an ultimatum, which was to be engaged by our four year anniversary. At the end of our three years, he didn''t propose, and the ultimatum failed. It was so hard and sad for me, because then I realized that it was never going to work out and he had no intentions of having a bigger and serious commitment with me. I broke up with him and it was the hardest breakup I had ever had to do, because I loved him, but he had no intentions of being with me the rest of his life.

Shortly after that I met my FF and I''ve never been as happy as I am now, even though we''ve been together for a few months.

My point is, don''t get stuck in timeframe and ultimatums. You will be highly disappointed when it doesn''t go through. Enjoy what you two currently have and talk to him about how you feel without being pushy/ultimatums!

 

[tessari]

I don''t have much to add, but I just want to say that I agree with Lara, Just Married and Trillionaire....

Just because I am not willing to stay with my SO for years and years without a proposal does not mean that we are not right for each other. I actually really resent that idea...I know that I can find another person to fall in love with if things don''t work out with my SO. I think some people stay in a future-less relationship so long not because they are sooo in love with the person but because they are scared of being single.

 

[Still_Waiting]

Date: 12/8/2008 11:10:57 AM
Author: aliciagirl
I''ve never given an ultimatum and I don''t think I ever would. Pressuring someone to get what I want is just not a way that I could ever be. That''s not to say that I wouldn''t set an internal timeline and stick to it if marriage was important.

For me, I love my FI and I wanted to be with him forever. Ring or no ring. Marriage or no marriage. Maybe I''m in a different camp than most because I would be just as happy being together and not being married as I would be being married. When he finally proposed, one thing he told me he really appreciated was that I didn''t put any pressure on him. He said there was no question in his mind about whether I was ''the one'' or if he wanted to be with me, but he just needed his own time to plan a proposal and be ready.

Other guys, on the other hand, kind of need a kick in the butt to get going. You know your SO best and it''s kind of too late to take back your ultimatum. You really do need to be ready to leave if he doesn''t follow through, though.

But why do you suppose gay rights is such an issue right now? I''m sorry to be a downer here, but what happens if one of you gets in a horrible accident or sick suddenly? If you''re not blood-related or married, what rights do you have? What about shared expenses, or if your home is in his name? I mean, hopefully, these are things you (we) won''t have to deal with, but, personally, I''d like some peace of mind. Of course, that in itself is NOT the reason to marry, but it''s definitely something to consider. I''m currently in a position that has me VERY dependent on my BF and sometimes it does scare me a little...BUT, I try not to think about all the "what ifs"...it''ll make me go mad!

When I start finding marriage on the brain, I often think as you do...what does it REALLY matter? We live together. We''re very committed to one another. What''s the big deal, really? But then I start thinking about all the rights involved in a marriage license. So, yeah, I really do think it''s important; for the rights, and also for the official, legal commitment to each other.

Just my two cents!

 

[trillionaire]

I guess I think of marriage and commitment as something that is very personal. I don''t want a traditional wedding, just the two of us making a commitment to one another. So, if I am dating someone who can''t commit to me, and I need that commitment, then I need to find someone else. I don''t believe in soulmates, and I don''t want kids. My life is not constrained by those things. If I just wanted to date, just wanted to have companionship, I can achieve that with much less energy, less time, less sacrifice of self that I do in my relationship with my SO. We''ve been together for 5+ yrs, and I have never given him an ultimatum. Ironically, he asked me, once, what my timeline was. I''m pretty sure he wanted to know because an arbitrary date meant less to him than our relationship, and he didn''t want me to walk away before he had at least a timeframe, a chance to make the commitment. I told him that I didn''t have one, and that I hadn''t even thought about it. But if I did have concerns about the progress of our relationship, I would talk to him about it, because I feel that I owe him at least that honesty and respect.

I also would not live with a man that I wasn''t engaged to or married to, so a commitment is ultimately important for the progress of our relationship. I see no point in consolidating my life with someone who can''t make a commitment to me. Why should I commit my resources? I know that other people believe and live differently, but those are the values that I have been raised with. I don''t play house. I''m not scared of being single, and my SO is my best friend in the world, but I will put myself first, ultimately, until someone else makes a commitment to do the same. I also don''t think of letting someone know that you are at the end of your rope, or that the rope HAS an end, is always a bad thing. And it only sounds one sided because mostly women are in here talking, but there are plenty of men, I am sure, who would not date a woman that never wanted to get married, would not date a woman who did not want children, and who see those as important elements of their lives. I know guys who have been in long term relationships and basically begged their women to the altar over years. It does go both ways. And women CAN propose to men, as well.

 

[MissDimity]

Hi all again,

Even though I said I want to have a child before I turn 30, hence ( as I believe in marriage before children) I would want to get married before hand, that doesn''t mean that I would be desperate enough to find any guy to settle down with to fulfill that ambition if I break up with SO.

That is just SO and I''s plan.... he want''s to have children.. he is 34 now and doesn''t want to wait till his 40 (I would be 32 yrs) to have children. Even when I initially said my ''ultimatum'' I don''t think I even considered that idea of children, it just made sense later.

I have never given a guy an ultimatum. I know that I only did so with my SO as I know that a proposal is probable in that timeframe. He even jests about it among his friends, he does not take it that seriously, also the fact that we have been ring shopping also a fair amount in front of my ''deadline'' also indicates his desire to marry me, despite the ''4 year ultimatum''.

In retrospect I could have not given an ultimatum, I''m pretty positive that he will proposed to me anyway in that 4 year time frame. However, I still think to suggest a timeframe, given that he knows I would not want to date anyone if I knew it was not going to eventually lead to a long term commitment, was still reasonable.

I know sometimes people get stuck in a rut with being in a relationship, even when you aren''t compatible with each other, sometimes because it is just so easy to do so, it is convenient to be going out with someone, it is like being in the same job for years on end, even though you know you could find a better one, you are happy and secure and familiar with that job. There is a bit of a risk involved if you apply for another job, what if it doesn''t turn out the way I would have liked it? What if the co-workers aren''t so nice?

I knew that was the case with SO''s previous relationship. She had pushed him to apply for a visa for her to come from England out to Australia ( even tho they hadn''t been together for the minimum amount of time). Her best friend had come out to Australia, and she had nothing to keep her in England ( no other friends, family didn''t like her). SO and her moved in for 6 months and then he left to travel and live in Canada/ France for about a year. He moved in with her when he came back, and from what he describes she was a horrible person to live with, hated his friends, they would often have fights ( often leading to her becoming physical), it eventually led to him wanting to end his own life ( and he still has the scars on his wrist to prove it). He recalled to me what the doctor said, anyone that led to you wanting to end your own life, is a person not worth having around you.

I asked him, why didn''t you leave her? His response is I felt sorry for her, she had no one in Australia. Anyhow, eventually they both started casual seeing different people whilst living together until eventually she left and he didn''t chase her. She stayed with him just under the period allowed to eventually apply for citizenship in Australia

In giving a deadline, I am knowing allowing him to review our relationship and decided if he want''s to be with me forever. I don''t want to be in a relationship that he hates. I know it is not fair to have actions based on past relationships, however past relationships do give some insight into a way a person behaved and their motives.

 

[aliciagirl]

Date: 12/8/2008 12:41:41 PM
Author: Still_Waiting

Date: 12/8/2008 11:10:57 AM

Author: aliciagirl

I''ve never given an ultimatum and I don''t think I ever would. Pressuring someone to get what I want is just not a way that I could ever be. That''s not to say that I wouldn''t set an internal timeline and stick to it if marriage was important.


For me, I love my FI and I wanted to be with him forever. Ring or no ring. Marriage or no marriage. Maybe I''m in a different camp than most because I would be just as happy being together and not being married as I would be being married. When he finally proposed, one thing he told me he really appreciated was that I didn''t put any pressure on him. He said there was no question in his mind about whether I was ''the one'' or if he wanted to be with me, but he just needed his own time to plan a proposal and be ready.


Other guys, on the other hand, kind of need a kick in the butt to get going. You know your SO best and it''s kind of too late to take back your ultimatum. You really do need to be ready to leave if he doesn''t follow through, though.

But why do you suppose gay rights is such an issue right now? I''m sorry to be a downer here, but what happens if one of you gets in a horrible accident or sick suddenly? If you''re not blood-related or married, what rights do you have? What about shared expenses, or if your home is in his name? I mean, hopefully, these are things you (we) won''t have to deal with, but, personally, I''d like some peace of mind. Of course, that in itself is NOT the reason to marry, but it''s definitely something to consider. I''m currently in a position that has me VERY dependent on my BF and sometimes it does scare me a little...BUT, I try not to think about all the ''what ifs''...it''ll make me go mad!

When I start finding marriage on the brain, I often think as you do...what does it REALLY matter? We live together. We''re very committed to one another. What''s the big deal, really? But then I start thinking about all the rights involved in a marriage license. So, yeah, I really do think it''s important; for the rights, and also for the official, legal commitment to each other.


Just my two cents!

As I said, that is only my opinion and my outlook on things. There are ways that one can protect themselves and grant their SO or live-in partner or whatever the option of looking out for their health. You can make someone you aren''t married to your medical power of attorney, but really, every person should have a living will to look out for themselves, both before and after they have a spouse. Lots of companies now offer insurance to "domestic partners" and not just to married partners.

Every person needs to do what is best for them. I know lots of people who are willing to sacrifice some of the "rights" of marriage in order to avoid being screwed over in a bad divorce. I, personally, don''t need a piece of paper to make me any more committed. And FI and I are both pretty secular, so there isn''t a religious aspect for us, either. Marriage IS important to my FI, though, because deep down he has pretty traditional beliefs and I''m excited for our future being married. I was just indifferent about the whole thing. It was kind of take-it or leave-it to me.

 

[Haven]

It sounds like it''s time for a frank discussion with your bf. It sounds like he''s ready for marriage, and you''ve told him that it is important to you, and he''s taken steps toward proposing, so perhaps you are worrying over nothing.

But no amount of typing it out on PS will get you closer to knowing what he''s thinking, and whether you two are on the same page.

As for ultimatums, I would never give one. A good friend did, after four years of dating and finally moving in together. He asked for an "extension", then finally proposed right before that deadline, and they separated after just two years of marriage. They''re living together again now, but it was clear that he was not ready for marriage and he only proposed because he was forced. That sort of took the romance out of the whole wedding.

Good luck to you. And congratulations on your recent degree!

 

[MissDimity]

Thanks Haven ! You know, I am not really keen for marriage.. I could wait another 3 years for marriage, I however just want to be engaged to know that he wants to be with me forever.

We are currently in the process of looking together for property to buy and our buying power is greater if we remain unmarried , also married couples are taxed more heavily in Aus so those other factors combined which make me not so keen for marriage, however I could still be engaged, wait another 2-3 years and then get married.

Also since completing my degree, I also want to a work a while in my area of expertise, physiotherapy, and also save more money towards the costs of a wedding.

 

[Haven]

I never knew that buying power was less if a couple is married in Aus, nor did I know that married couples are taxed more heavily. That sounds crazy to me, but I''m an American and it''s the opposite here, at least regarding taxes.

I hope you find the home and the job and the ring you want! I know how horribly difficult it can be when you really want to be engaged, trust me, I was there (that''s how I found PS). BUT, just know that in the end you will have it all, you really will.

And when you do get it, you are obligated to post tons of pictures for us!