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Uncertified stones?

Begonia

Begonia

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
3,617
Would you consider purchasing one? If so, under what conditions?
 
I’d like to think I would have a set $$ amount of what I would and would not accept without a report, but I think it all depends.
My sapphire has no lab report.
For the size and price and look,
I trusted the word of who I bought it from, of the chain of possession and where he received it from. And via past social media trail, it was pretty easy for me to verify both of those. :)
Ultimately that still goes back to trusting the original vendor/cutter’s statements of origin when it was first posted for sale.
 
Thank you both for helping with my education :)))
 
I would consider it, under the condition that I could send it to a lab and if it came back as anything other than what it was sold to me as, the seller would let me return the stone for a full refund of the stone price as well as refund me the lab report fee. I would want to know the seller is standing behind what they are selling me.
 
Begonia said:
Would you consider purchasing one? If so, under what conditions?
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Expensive sapphire, ruby, emerald, alexandrite, spinel, or other very expensive highly synthesized and/or treated gems, no way. It must have a reputable lab report. Labs don’t “certify” by the way. They provide an unbiased gemological report.

As for garnets, tourmaline, and regular chrysoberyl, and other inexpensive gems, I don’t need a lab report if they’re from a reputable vendor.
 
If I'm spending any decent amount of money, I like to have a reputable lab report or make sure I'm purchasing for a vendor reputable enough to refund me if I later on find out a stone is not as represented. And then, depending on price, once I achieve it I run it over to a local gemologist to scope it out.
 
P2P sale? No report- no refund ?
If the price is being based on ‘like comps’ and not the typical ‘I paid x, I’m selling for 80% (whatever) off that’
For me 200-300usd max. Or whatever you’d be ok with ‘gambling’ away and not missing the money.
Because that’s what this is. Reputable established vendors have been misled by their sources and loupes before - there’s a ruby thread and a pad thread on here just like that.
It’s not malicious- but it does happen.
 
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I sure value each and every opinion here. Thank you.
 
If you are concerned, you should buy a certified sapphire and from a vendor who has a return policy. However you’ll pay a price commensurate with having those options available.
 
I do not intend to sell my stones, so I do not bother.

My big ticket CSs are commissioned pieces from roughs sourced by the cutter whom I trust.

DK :))
 
Most of my stones do not have certs. I bought them from vendors I trust, such as Gene and Dana, who disclose treatment. They also weren't expensive!
 
I would have to trust my own ID, this only works for some obvious cases.
 
I have a few relatively inexpensive stones and don't have certs (bought from vendors and individuals). I have one expensive (for me) sapphire that isn't certed. In trust the vendor and it's in a ring that I'll never sell and I doubt if whoever I leave it to will care if it's certed. I trust people and so far, it's worked out. I've on my bought from trusted PS vendors or from PSers.
 
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Bron357 said:
If you are concerned, you should buy a certified sapphire and from a vendor who has a return policy. However you’ll pay a price commensurate with having those options available.
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Exactly. Most of my stones dont have certs, because none were more than $1500 (all but 1 was under 750USD) and I only purchase from vendors I trust. But for a higher price item I would want a cert. But I trust @Bron357 and therefore wouldn't have any issue purchasing from her (or any other well known PSer).
 
I'm on a pretty steep learning curve, and part of that involves asking the question of to cert or not to cert and the pros and cons of each.

No disrespect intended toward any vendor or PSer who sells (or buys) with or without certs. I'm a believer in being an informed consumer, and I asked questions of those who are in a position to teach me. Thank you all for taking the time to answer and give me candid feedback. It is truly appreciated from this colored stone newbie!
 
@Begonia - you're using PS in the best way! Learning more is how you'll find what you're comfortable with. Some people want and need top shelf, some don't; some people want certs, some don't. I'm thankful for all of those on PS who are willing to share their expertise and experiences.
 
eapj said:
@Begonia - you're using PS in the best way! Learning more is how you'll find what you're comfortable with. Some people want and need top shelf, some don't; some people want certs, some don't. I'm thankful for all of those on PS who are willing to share their expertise and experiences.
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Thank you for responding eapj (and again, absolutely all of you!). Everything I read about colored stones is a first for me. Truly, I am so green. So my questions are just that. Questions. Also I'm a big researcher. It just drives me, so I ask a lot of questions. Thank you for being my teachers!
 
I’m, uh...pretty bad. I have several uncerted stones, but from people I trust. There are still at least two (one is a garnet, @T L , you remember the days when certain garnets were cheap ;) ) that I have thought about sending in when they look so good, I get paranoid. Lol I’ve historically used AGL and GIA, though, which is a PITA when there are borders involved. I will say that there were two stones with surprises, both sapphires. One turned out to be BE treated, much to the embarrassment of the vendor (from a supplier they had been using for years). The other was sold to me as heated, but turned out to be unheated according to the lab.
 
Yes, here in Australia certified stones (other than diamonds and the $$$$) are “beg pardon”. We have one guy in Sydney who is recognised as reputable which is fine for buyers here but international buyers wouldn’t know his name or reputation and are less likely to trust his opinion. We don’t have a GIA or a AGS here. We can send our gems overseas for certification but the risk is that upon reimportation as an ordinary person, not a business, the parcel gets hit with GST and Import tax. It is reclaimable back of course but you still have to pay up front. I have 2 sapphires and 2 rubies I want “recognised” certification for. The gems might be worth $50,000 plus. 15% of $50,000 is $7,500 (and that’s before 2 x registered insured shipping plus 4 x certification fees) and I have to pay that upfront. I don’t have a spare $9,000 sitting around unfortunately.
So I’m going to take them overseas and have a holiday at the same time BUT with my daughter doing her final year of schooling last year and my father being Terminally ill and just hanging on, I’m not in a position to take such a trip at this time.
 
Yes, absolutely require a cert for anything over USD1000. I can understand why something newly mined doesn't have a cert right off the bat-- mine didn't-- but in that case, I require the vendor to provide a cert of my choice and the right to return & be refunded if the cert proves the seller's claims to be false e.g. untreated vs. treated. If the cert doesn't certify a gem as say, a padparadscha or cornflower color, I might not return if I like it, but I'd negotiate a discount.
 
Need report from a reputable lab for diamond, corundum, alexandrite, emerald, Paraiba, spinel. Not sure I would bother for anything else. A report is not an appraisal and many official-looking reports are garbage. There are at least a half-dozen excellent labs that I would accept and for a lower-end stone like chrysoberyl, I have accepted a lab in Colombo. Everything I buy has a report. If you're buying hundred-dollar eBay stones, no one will do that for you, of course. But the risk is minimal. OTOH, I'm not sure who would spend hundreds or thousands to set a hundred-dollar stone to begin with?
 
I should add to my previous answer that I haven’t actually sent many stones in for a report, but I do like having the reassurance that if I do, the seller will stand behind what they sold me. I’ve also found that most sellers won’t advertise that they will do this, but if you ask they will agree to those terms, which are fair in my opinion.
 
T L said:
Expensive sapphire, ruby, emerald, alexandrite, spinel, or other very expensive highly synthesized and/or treated gems, no way. It must have a reputable lab report. Labs don’t “certify” by the way. They provide an unbiased gemological report.

As for garnets, tourmaline, and regular chrysoberyl, and other inexpensive gems, I don’t need a lab report if they’re from a reputable vendor.
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Mostly this but it also depends on who - if it’s a vendor I’ve bought several stones from that had all tested ok, I may buy without a cert first. But I still prefer to recert my stones locally unless there is already a cert from a really well regarded lab. Plus I don’t like how loose some labs are around giving trade preferred color names.

I also go to jewellery shows so I may also buy uncerted stones if it’s a really good deal.

Actually I almost never bother to certify stuff like tourmalines, no matter the price. Is that really bad? Oops.
 
icy_jade said:
Mostly this but it also depends on who - if it’s a vendor I’ve bought several stones from that had all tested ok, I may buy without a cert first. But I still prefer to recert my stones locally unless there is already a cert from a really well regarded lab. Plus I don’t like how loose some labs are around giving trade preferred color names.

I also go to jewellery shows so I may also buy uncerted stones if it’s a really good deal.

Actually I almost never bother to certify stuff like tourmalines, no matter the price. Is that really bad? Oops.
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Tourmaline thus far has not been synthesized in the lab, and most treatment is not detectable. The only time I will bother to get a lab report for a tourmaline is if it were a very e expensive paraiba and you needed to know if it was from Brazil and or if it was clarity enhanced.

Gem and jewelry shows are a huge consumer traps, and I personally never ever buy expensive risky gems at a gem show without a reputable lab report, no matter the deal. I learned this the hard way.
 
T L said:
Tourmaline thus far has not been synthesized in the lab, and most treatment is not detectable. The only time I will bother to get a lab report for a tourmaline is if it were a very e expensive paraiba and you needed to know if it was from Brazil and or if it was clarity enhanced.

Gem and jewelry shows are a huge consumer traps, and I personally never ever buy expensive risky gems at a gem show without a reputable lab report, no matter the deal. I learned this the hard way.
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Thanks @T L

Yeah I haven’t gotten anything really risky at Jewellery shows except a spinel (which turned out fine thank goodness) and jadeite. The rest are like tourmalines (not paraiba) or pearls which are fine I think...

Oh ya, and a preloved star sapphire and a Mexican opal which was fine too.

I’ve learnt not to buy any jadeite that’s uncertified the hard way.
 
First, labs don't certify anything. They give you a report of their findings. In the US many people use the AGL for colored stones.

The least expensive report is what they call a GemBrief. These are $70 plus shipping, and AGL will always use registered mail, so you can add on another $30, plus what ever it cost you to ship the stone to them. These are only available for certain size stones, so if you have 3 carat ruby, you can not get a GemBrief.

The next report is a Prestige Report. The price varies depending on the size going from $230 to $720. Plus shipping.

So you need to ask yourself do you want to spend this much additional on a stone.

About 10 years ago, I thought I would give this a try and sent a bunch of stones out for GemBriefs. Of course this added to the price of the stone, and I found they were actually harder to sell because of the increase in price.

The only stones were untreated add a premium are ruby and sapphire, so for these if the stone is a higher value then it makes sense, but if you are buying a $300 Umba sapphire, and they don't respond well to heat anyway, does it make sense to turn it into a $410 stone?

Now if you have a blue sapphire, where the price for an unheated stone is say $2100 and the same stone if heated were $1250 per ct, then a report makes sense.
 
Twice I have had vendors assure me that sapphires were heat only, and each time GIA confirmed more invasive treatments - i.e., Be treated. It appears the two colors most often diffused are the bright, intensely saturated blue, and bright orange and padparadscha. Since value drops steeply from heat only to those more invasively treated, this is where I would be most concerned: unless I have a lab report stating heat only, I won't buy (unless it's someone like Roger Dery, who has sourced and cut the rough himself).
 
minousbijoux said:
Twice I have had vendors assure me that sapphires were heat only, and each time GIA confirmed more invasive treatments - i.e., Be treated. It appears the two colors most often diffused are the bright, intensely saturated blue, and bright orange and padparadscha. Since value drops steeply from heat only to those more invasively treated, this is where I would be most concerned: unless I have a lab report stating heat only, I won't buy (unless it's someone like Roger Dery, who has sourced and cut the rough himself).
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Sourcing and cutting yourself is not really enough. I have seen plenty of fakes being offered as natural rough while in Arusha Tanzania. Unless you dig it yourself, which is not legal in Tanzania, you can not be sure the rough you are being shown is what is stated.
 
minousbijoux said:
Twice I have had vendors assure me that sapphires were heat only, and each time GIA confirmed more invasive treatments - i.e., Be treated. It appears the two colors most often diffused are the bright, intensely saturated blue, and bright orange and padparadscha. Since value drops steeply from heat only to those more invasively treated, this is where I would be most concerned: unless I have a lab report stating heat only, I won't buy (unless it's someone like Roger Dery, who has sourced and cut the rough himself).
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Corundum probably undergoes more invasive kinds of treatment, as well as synthesis, than any other gem I can think of. I once paid more for a lab report than I did for a whole stone (sapphire), and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. My stone was undervalued by the vendor, but I wanted peace of mind.

You have to remember that most labs around the world have the ability to test for heat, but not necessarily for all kinds of chemical enhancement. I had to pay an extra $100 for that, Therefore it’s not even good enough to buy corundum with the lab report, it has to come from a highly reputable lab that has the ability to do these tests.
 
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