Understanding Clouds

[Alexander33]

Hi! First off I’m new here and I’ve learned so much by reading these threads so thank you! I‘m going to avoid listing any vender so trade members can reply.

One thing that has left me a little confused is clouds. I’m hoping to get a better understanding of this.

1. Do having clouds make it a ”Cloudy” diamond?

2. Do all grade making clouds affect transparency in some way ?

3.If a diamond is coming from a vetted vendors (in house) and its only grade maker is clouds as its only grade maker and has “additional clouds“ as well should buyers be concerned?

4. When should a person worry about clouds and not worry about them

5. Should clouds always be avoided ad grade makers?

Thank you everyone. I’m looking forward to continuing to learn from you all.

 

[tyty333]

I'll try to answer your questions (the best I* can, but hoping some Trade Members do pop on it). I dont have much experience with clouds.
This is just what I have gathered over the last 10 years or so! Hopefully, Trade Members can give us their opinions.

Hi! First off I’m new here and I’ve learned so much by reading these threads so thank you! I‘m going to avoid listing any vender so trade members can reply.

One thing that has left me a little confused is clouds. I’m hoping to get a better understanding of this.

1. Do having clouds make it a ”Cloudy” diamond?
No, not necessarily.

2. Do all grade making clouds affect transparency in some way ?
"Some way" is just not specific enough. What about a grade making cloud in a VVS1?

3.If a diamond is coming from a vetted vendors (in house) and its only grade maker is clouds as its only grade maker and has “additional clouds“ as well should buyers be concerned?
If you are talking the Super IDeal vendors that we usually talk about on Pricescope, the stone would not have made it into their inventory
if the clouds were an issue or, you would be told the stone is not eye-clean. Not that it would have a transparency issue though. More like
it may have a few clouds that you can see upon close observation. Always worth asking the vendor questions and getting more details.

4. When should a person worry about clouds and not worry about them
At lower clarities like SI1 and lower especially when the reports says something like Clarity is based on clouds not shown.

5. Should clouds always be avoided ad grade makers?
No, each stone has to be evaluated on its own particular grade and inclusion (cloud).

Thank you everyone. I’m looking forward to continuing to learn from you all.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

@tyty333 covered your questions well.

I would just add that a "cloud" is essentially a group of microscopic crystals. It can be large or small, dense or very diffuse. Location of the clouds within the diamond also has a bearing on whether it will have any appreciable effects in terms of light performance.

A lab report unfortunately does not tell the whole story about transparency and to what extent clarity characteristics of the diamond such as clouds, twinning wisps and graining, or fluourescence might have a visual impact.

This is where careful vetting by the merchant is important. Good quality photos and videos are also helpful. Merchants that buy and stock their inventory have a vested interest on the front end not to add diamonds with transparency or other issues to their inventory.

 

[Alexander33]

I'll try to answer your questions (the best I* can, but hoping some Trade Members do pop on it). I dont have much experience with clouds.
This is just what I have gathered over the last 10 years or so! Hopefully, Trade Members can give us their opinions.

Thank you @tyty333 for your response I have read a lot of your responses in threads and value your time in responding! I hope some long time members like yourself, and trade members respond in this. ( I should have clarified with the question that I’m mainly speaking to Si1 and VS2 diamonds).

Clouds are such an interesting inclusion. At first I thought that they are a preferred inclusion due to it being a cluster of pinpoints but after reading some threads I’ve heard mixed answers. it probably the only inclusion I don’t understand.

Also, yes PS recommended venders super ideal is what i was referring to. It seems speaking to those diamonds no inclusion is better then the other.. is that correct?.. as in, there is no ”preferred“ inclusion in those cases due to the fact that any of the inclusions don’t effect performance and transparency in any way or it wouldn’t be in there line up. Is that correct?


@Texas Leaguer

Thank you for your response as well. Would love your thoughts on the comments above.

Which locations of clouds are best to avoid? For example if you have a small grade making vs2 cloud on table does that mean it will effect performance or is that still case by case?

Also, when getting a grade of SI1 or VS2 Do they take in to account the density or it being very diffuse? Or more so the visibility of pinpoints.

 

[Karl_K]

In my opinion the number 1 thing about a cloud is how dense is it.
The density of the cloud will be the number one thing that determines if its a problem.
A large not dense cloud will be less of an issue than a smaller dense cloud.
The location and how deep in the stone it is can also make a differece
It comes down to mostly density.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Thank you @tyty333 for your response I have read a lot of your responses in threads and value your time in responding! I hope some long time members like yourself, and trade members respond in this. ( I should have clarified with the question that I’m mainly speaking to Si1 and VS2 diamonds).

Clouds are such an interesting inclusion. At first I thought that they are a preferred inclusion due to it being a cluster of pinpoints but after reading some threads I’ve heard mixed answers. it probably the only inclusion I don’t understand.

Also, yes PS recommended venders super ideal is what i was referring to. It seems speaking to those diamonds no inclusion is better then the other.. is that correct?.. as in, there is no ”preferred“ inclusion in those cases due to the fact that any of the inclusions don’t effect performance and transparency in any way or it wouldn’t be in there line up. Is that correct?


@Texas Leaguer

Thank you for your response as well. Would love your thoughts on the comments above.

Which locations of clouds are best to avoid? For example if you have a small grade making vs2 cloud on table does that mean it will effect performance or is that still case by case?

Also, when getting a grade of SI1 or VS2 Do they take in to account the density or it being very diffuse? Or more so the visibility of pinpoints.

I agree with @Karl_K that density is very important. And this is something you cannot fully decipher from a report.

With respect to your questions, the difference between a VS2 and S1 is how easy or difficult the inclusion is to locate and see at 10x by an experienced grader. Density can sometimes factor into visibility.

If the cloud is off to the edge and is small, even if it is dense, it is unlikely to impact transparency. If it is down in the culet area where a lot of light rays are converging, it is more likely to scatter or block some light and affect the optics, particularly if it is dense. Again, difficult to tell from a lab report how deep or shallow the feature is in 3D or how dense it might be.

Because every diamond is unique, I would definitely say it is always a case by case basis.

 

[Alexander33]

In my opion the number 1 thing about a cloud is how dense is it.
The density of the cloud will be the number one thing that determines if its a problem.
A large not dense cloud will be less of an issue than a smaller dense cloud.
The location and how deep in the stone it is can also make a differece
It comes down to mostly density.

Thanks @Karl_K. From what you have seen does AGS/GIA grade with the density of the cloud or more so the how visual size of the pinpoints?
for example ( if cloud was only grade maker) If The diamond has a small cloud thats not dense on the table but pinpoints are larger it can get a SI1 grading due to the size and visibility of the pinpoints NOT DUE to the density.

Then on another diamond same small size cloud could have smaller more dense pinpoints and can get a VS2 grading due to pinpoints being smaller even though its more dense and and can cause transparency issues.

if this is correct, is that the reason its a case by case situation and why not all cloud inclusions are consistent even if they have the same grade or lower

 

[Alexander33]

I agree with @Karl_K that density is very important. And this is something you cannot fully decipher from a report.

With respect to your questions, the difference between a VS2 and S1 is how easy or difficult the inclusion is to locate and see at 10x by an experienced grader. Density can sometimes factor into visibility.

If the cloud is off to the edge and is small, even if it is dense, it is unlikely to impact transparency. If it is down in the culet area where a lot of light rays are converging, it is more likely to scatter or block some light and affect the optics, particularly if it is dense. Again, difficult to tell from a lab report how deep or shallow the feature is in 3D or how dense it might be.

Because every diamond is unique, I would definitely say it is always a case by case basis.

I see @Texas Leaguer I responded this to Karl but if I’m understanding correctly then this example is true ( I hope it makes sense)

for example ( if cloud was only grade maker) If The diamond has a small cloud thats not dense on the table but pinpoints are larger it can get a SI1 grading due to the size and visibility of the pinpoints NOT DUE to the density.

Then on another diamond same small size cloud could have smaller more dense pinpoints and can get a VS2 grading due to pinpoints being smaller even though its more dense and and can cause transparency issues.

if this is correct, is that the reason its a case by case situation and why not all cloud inclusions are consistent even if they have the same grade or even a lower grade


Are clouds on tables ok if they are not dense?

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I see @Texas Leaguer I responded this to Karl but if I’m understanding correctly then this example is true ( I hope it makes sense)

for example ( if cloud was only grade maker) If The diamond has a small cloud thats not dense on the table but pinpoints are larger it can get a SI1 grading due to the size and visibility of the pinpoints NOT DUE to the density.

Then on another diamond same small size cloud could have smaller more dense pinpoints and can get a VS2 grading due to pinpoints being smaller even though its more dense and and can cause transparency issues.

if this is correct, is that the reason its a case by case situation and why not all cloud inclusions are consistent even if they have the same grade or even a lower grade


Are clouds on tables ok if they are not dense?

From a clarity grade standpoint the issue is essentially visibility at 10x. So size, number, location, color and density can all tie in to how noticeable it is.

Any inclusion on the table is easier to see than if it is hiding among the crown facets for instance. But a small cloud on the table is not necessarily any worse than any other inclusion in that location, particularly if it is not dense.

 

[Alexander33]

From a clarity grade standpoint the issue is essentially visibility at 10x. So size, number, location, color and density can all tie in to how noticeable it is.

Any inclusion on the table is easier to see than if it is hiding among the crown facets for instance. But a small cloud on the table is not necessarily any worse than any other inclusion in that location, particularly if it is not dense.

@Texas Leaguer Not sure if you can answer this but can one say that looking at Super ideal cuts from PS vendors it doesnt matter what the inclusion is or where its located whether its a cloud, twinning wisp, graining etc because if it effected the diamonds transparency or light performance it wouldnt make the cut? And all inclusions are pretty much equal when looking at thsee diamonds and for the consumer not to get to caught up on it when looking at the branded diamond with those vendors

 

[Karl_K]

@Texas Leaguer Not sure if you can answer this but can one say that looking at Super ideal cuts from PS vendors it doesnt matter what the inclusion is or where its located whether its a cloud, twinning wisp, graining etc because if it effected the diamonds transparency or light performance it wouldnt make the cut? And all inclusions are pretty much equal when looking at thsee diamonds and for the consumer not to get to caught up on it when looking at the branded diamond with those vendors

No, being a top cut does not mean it will not have other issues.
Simple answer.
Ask them about it when your discussing the stone.
You want to know about it being eye-clean and what definition they use for eye-clean and about the transparency of the stone.

Same brands will sort out those with issues but its always good to ask.
If nothing else it keeps them on their toes.

 

[Alexander33]

No, being a top cut does not mean it will not have other issues.
Simple answer.
Ask them about it when your discussing the stone.
You want to know about it being eye-clean and what definition they use for eye-clean and about the transparency of the stone.

Same brands will sort out those with issues but its always good to ask.
If nothing else it keeps them on their toes.

.

clouds are so tricky

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Alexander33 said:
@Texas Leaguer Not sure if you can answer this but can one say that looking at Super ideal cuts from PS vendors it doesnt matter what the inclusion is or where its located whether its a cloud, twinning wisp, graining etc because if it effected the diamonds transparency or light performance it wouldnt make the cut? And all inclusions are pretty much equal when looking at thsee diamonds and for the consumer not to get to caught up on it when looking at the branded diamond with those vendors
_____

I can't speak for other vendors as I am not privy to the criteria or vetting process of other companies.

We do understand that our customers are especially interested in light performance, so questions about transparency are relevant to our customers. That is why we publish the detailed specifications and qualifications for our brand, including the vetting for transparency issues. Because they are in-house, these diamonds can be examined or photographed at any time for special concerns.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

would a diamond even make the ACA criteria if there were any issue with transparency?

Not sure if you are aware but there are rules for tradespeople on the forum, so I would refer you to the website if you want to learn the exact criteria for our brand.

 

[Alexander33]

Not sure if you are aware but there are rules for tradespeople on the forum, so I would refer you to the website if you want to learn the exact criteria for our brand.

thanks i just deleted the question

clouds are still very confusing. From what i gathered the answer is some clouds that are diffused can be a great win because its harder to see the inclusion and it can have no issue with transparency. and some can be a big issue If its dense. it doesn’t really matter on grading its a case by case situation

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi @Alexander33
I think it’s awesome, the effort you’re putting into learning.
No matter how much we discuss the aspects, there’s no other way to evaluate a specific cloud(s) based on the GIA/AGS report.
I find it totally fascinating.....the fact that each stone is completely individual. The same size cloud in the same spot in two different diamonds can have totally different effects.
I would say it’s safe to assume that a reputable vendor that’s buying diamonds for inventory will eliminate stones that suffer negative effects. This is opposed to sellers that only sell stones off lists.

 

[Alexander33]

Hi @Alexander33
I think it’s awesome, the effort you’re putting into learning.
No matter how much we discuss the aspects, there’s no other way to evaluate a specific cloud(s) based on the GIA/AGS report.
I find it totally fascinating.....the fact that each stone is completely individual. The same size cloud in the same spot in two different diamonds can have totally different effects.
I would say it’s safe to assume that a reputable vendor that’s buying diamonds for inventory will eliminate stones that suffer negative effects. This is opposed to sellers that only sell stones off lists.

Thanks so much @Rockdiamond very well said!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

If the cloud is off to the edge and is small, even if it is dense, it is unlikely to impact transparency. If it is down in the culet area where a lot of light rays are converging, it is more likely to scatter or block some light and affect the optics, particularly if it is dense. Again, difficult to tell from a lab report how deep or shallow the feature is in 3D or how dense it might be.

100%

 

[Alexander33]

100%

@Garry H (Cut Nut) what if its on table on an arrow? I’d love your thoughts on this subject of clouds as well or the questions asked above In the beginning of the thread it would be much appreciated!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

@Garry H (Cut Nut) what if its on table on an arrow? I’d love your thoughts on this subject of clouds as well or the questions asked above In the beginning of the thread it would be much appreciated!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

1. Do having clouds make it a ”Cloudy” diamond? VERY OFTEN

2. Do all grade making clouds affect transparency in some way ? NO, BUT THE LOWER THE GRADE THE MORE GIA MISSLEAD CONSUMERS AND HELP THE TRADE SELL DUDS

3.If a diamond is coming from a vetted vendors (in house) and its only grade maker is clouds as its only grade maker and has “additional clouds“ as well should buyers be concerned? I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANY OF OUR PS VENDORS MISLEADING IN THIS WAY. IF THEY DID WE WOULD ALL KNOW AND THEY WOULD BE BOOTED OUT. MANY OF OUR VENDORS HAVE BEEN WITH US +20 YEARS NOW. THEY RESPECT THE COMMUNITY (I.E. A BIT AFRAID TOO).

IT BOTHERS ME WHEN CONSUMERS RECOMMEND VENDORS WE HAVE NOT VETTED. IF THEY ARE REALLY GOOD THEN CONTACT ANDREY THE CEO AND SUGGEST WE REVIEW THEM.

4. When should a person worry about clouds and not worry about them SEE ABOVE

5. Should clouds always be avoided ad grade makers? NO, BUT I HAVE SEEN GIA FLAWLESS DIAMONDS THAT WERE DULL BECAUSE OF INTERNAL GRAINING

Thank you everyone. I’m looking forward to continuing to learn from you all.

Here is a GIA VS1 None (and lousy cut) that the manufacturer labelled as dull

 

[Alexander33]

Here is a GIA VS1 None (and lousy cut) that the manufacturer labelled as dull

Thank you soooo much! This was VERY helpful.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I will say that I have personally seen a diamond graded by GIA as VS1 that had compromised transparency.

However, it is very important to recognize that this is extremely rare. 90 plus percent of potential problems occur in the lower clarity grades.

 

[Alexander33]

I will say that I have personally seen a diamond graded by GIA as VS1 that had compromised transparency.

However, it is very important to recognize that this is extremely rare. 90 plus percent of potential problems occur in the lower clarity grades.

Does AGS ideal take into account clouds that effect transparency? I hear more issues with GIA in this area

 

[Double E]

Interesting topic~
Just got an example of grade making clouds with additional clouds not shown in a VS2. It’s a good result in this case, but really case by case. Honest vetting by vendor is essential.

 

[Alexander33]

This is also a vs2 and a grade making cloud (Only grade) and additional cloud as well. It’s vetted to have no transparency issue even though it’s on table.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Does AGS ideal take into account clouds that effect transparency? I hear more issues with GIA in this area

AGS Ideal is purely a cut quality designation. It is based upon very sophisticated ray tracing of a 3D model of the diamond. It does not factor in clarity factors that could potentially affect light performance.

Nor does the less robust GIA cut grade system factor in clarity or transparency.That is the role of the clarity grade and associated information contained on the grading report.

AGS and GIA use similar standards and techniques and are typically in agreement, but clarity grading in general and the nuances of transparency effects in particular, is still very much in the realm of human grading with some variability. Because GIA grades FAR more diamonds, outliers can be expected to be more numerous.

 

[Victor Canera]

Hi @Alexander33

A cloud setting inclusion doesn’t mean a diamond is milky. A nice VS2 with diffused clouds can be a great way to get a diamond that looks like a VS1+ clarity for a lower price point.

I think your question boils down to how you can tell whether a diamond is milky or not? The plot from a report won’t tell you that.

IF your vendor has standardizes videos, compare this stone to a couple of VS1+ clarity stones from their catalog and pull the two browser windows side by side. This way you have a control standard which is the vendors own photography or videography setup that is consistent. The only variable that changes is the product. Does this stone seem milkier than the VVS2 or do they seem to have the same level of transparency? Done


All the best,

 

[Alexander33]

Hi @Alexander33

A cloud setting inclusion doesn’t mean a diamond is milky. A nice VS2 with diffused clouds can be a great way to get a diamond that looks like a VS1+ clarity for a lower price point.

I think your question boils down to how you can tell whether a diamond is milky or not? The plot from a report won’t tell you that.

IF your vendor has standardizes videos, compare this stone to a couple of VS1+ clarity stones from their catalog and pull the two browser windows side by side. This way you have a control standard which is the vendors own photography or videography setup that is consistent. The only variable that changes is the product. Does this stone seem milkier than the VVS2 or do they seem to have the same level of transparency? Done


All the best,

great response thank you! Will defiantly test that out!

 

[Alexander33]

AGS Ideal is purely a cut quality designation. It is based upon very sophisticated ray tracing of a 3D model of the diamond. It does not factor in clarity factors that could potentially affect light performance.

Nor does the less robust GIA cut grade system factor in clarity or transparency.That is the role of the clarity grade and associated information contained on the grading report.

AGS and GIA use similar standards and techniques and are typically in agreement, but clarity grading in general and the nuances of transparency effects in particular, is still very much in the realm of human grading with some variability. Because GIA grades FAR more diamonds, outliers can be expected to be more numerous.

great info! This is very helpful! Thank you so much