Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusive)

[London]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

If you would like to call it internally flawless clarity, that's your right. You can buy a dog and call it a cat, that is also your right.
This is a form primarily about diamonds, although I understand this section is about colored stones.
It seems to me that the entire site is designed to give consumers accurate information. To that end, I think getting the terms right is crucial.
Given the fact that neither GIA, or a AGL issues clarity grades for sapphires, combined with the fact that some sellers are using these terms to misinform consumers, I think subject is an important.

Pyramid is also expressing my point. The fact that a certain type of inclusion does not exist is not mean that no inclusions exist.
As far as discussions with GIA employees, they are worth very little besides whatever impression you might take away from it.
Put another way I can swear all day long that a diamond is internally flawless because someone from GA told me so. However without the corresponding report it means nothing

ETA- endless Summer is correct is no offense intended. I hope you don't take it that way.

I have seen sapphires described as IF or VVS and so on and then on GIA report it says transparent and as a novice fist time sapphire buyer I find it very confusing. I agree that vendors should not describe sapphires in this manner and I will automatically discard the possibility of working with them because of it. To me it seems somewhat dishonest and as you said potentially uninformed.

 

[endless_summer]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

If you would like to call it internally flawless clarity, that's your right. You can buy a dog and call it a cat, that is also your right.
This is a form primarily about diamonds, although I understand this section is about colored stones.
It seems to me that the entire site is designed to give consumers accurate information. To that end, I think getting the terms right is crucial.
Given the fact that neither GIA, or a AGL issues clarity grades for sapphires, combined with the fact that some sellers are using these terms to misinform consumers, I think subject is an important.

Pyramid is also expressing my point. The fact that a certain type of inclusion does not exist is not mean that no inclusions exist.
As far as discussions with GIA employees, they are worth very little besides whatever impression you might take away from it.
Put another way I can swear all day long that a diamond is internally flawless because someone from GA told me so. However without the corresponding report it means nothing

ETA- endless Summer is correct is no offense intended. I hope you don't take it that way.

I have seen sapphires described as IF or VVS and so on and then on GIA report it says transparent and as a novice fist time sapphire buyer I find it very confusing. I agree that vendors should not describe sapphires in this manner and I will automatically discard the possibility of working with them because of it. To me it seems somewhat dishonest and as you said potentially uninformed.

Rockdiamond provided good educational points. But, that doesn't mean that someone that who assigns a clarity grade is necessarily doing it to be dishonest. To be fair, there are a few very reputable cutters who do label their stones as VVS and so on, but they also provide definitions of what they mean. One very well regarded cutter assigned clarity grades, among others, on a scale of 1-10, but again, he defines how he grades aspects of his stones. It would be great if everyone used the same standard, but in some instances (not necessarily all), I have to believe it's not meant to misinform but rather to help folks. This is all just to say that I wouldn't categorically decide to not purchase from someone who labels stones in these ways, as you could miss out on working with someone that could find you your perfect stone.

 

[London]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

If you would like to call it internally flawless clarity, that's your right. You can buy a dog and call it a cat, that is also your right.
This is a form primarily about diamonds, although I understand this section is about colored stones.
It seems to me that the entire site is designed to give consumers accurate information. To that end, I think getting the terms right is crucial.
Given the fact that neither GIA, or a AGL issues clarity grades for sapphires, combined with the fact that some sellers are using these terms to misinform consumers, I think subject is an important.

Pyramid is also expressing my point. The fact that a certain type of inclusion does not exist is not mean that no inclusions exist.
As far as discussions with GIA employees, they are worth very little besides whatever impression you might take away from it.
Put another way I can swear all day long that a diamond is internally flawless because someone from GA told me so. However without the corresponding report it means nothing

ETA- endless Summer is correct is no offense intended. I hope you don't take it that way.

I have seen sapphires described as IF or VVS and so on and then on GIA report it says transparent and as a novice fist time sapphire buyer I find it very confusing. I agree that vendors should not describe sapphires in this manner and I will automatically discard the possibility of working with them because of it. To me it seems somewhat dishonest and as you said potentially uninformed.

Rockdiamond provided good educational points. But, that doesn't mean that someone that who assigns a clarity grade is necessarily doing it to be dishonest. To be fair, there are a few very reputable cutters who do label their stones as VVS and so on, but they also provide definitions of what they mean. One very well regarded cutter assigned clarity grades, among others, on a scale of 1-10, but again, he defines how he grades aspects of his stones. It would be great if everyone used the same standard, but in some instances (not necessarily all), I have to believe it's not meant to misinform but rather to help folks. This is all just to say that I wouldn't categorically decide to not purchase from someone who labels stones in these ways, as you could miss out on working with someone that could find you your perfect stone.

Yes agreed, you are probably right. Perhaps I shouldn't discard working with someone for this reason. I just don't want to fall into any traps as I have in the past and am being possible overly cautions!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

It seems to me that describing clarity of the sapphire using some other scale besides a diamond scale makes a lot of sense. Call me a skeptic, but it also seems to me that if someone is involved in this trade, and is using diamond terms to describe sapphires, they're doing it to confuse shoppers.

 

[LimitedGems]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

I cant acutally understand how this would be deceiving or confusing at all. A dishonest seller will always be a dishonest seller and a good seller will always be a good one no matter how they choose to describe the clarity of their gemstones.

I mean, IF-I are describing clarity in words, Interally Flawless, Very Very Slightly Included, Slightly Included, (heavily) Included 1/2/3. As long as they follow the GIA 5c's it cant be deceiving no matter what material the gemstone are. A clarity will always be a clarity if following the guidelines.

The more confusing part are when a seller will only tell you the gemstone are "Transparent". Heavily included Transparent, slightly included Transparent, flawless Transparancy? Saying a legit seller cant describe any of their gemstones with grades from the GIA Diamond Scale will mean a seller can not tell a customer which type of inclusions the gemstone got. Because if describing the types of inclusions they will automatically fall back at the IF-I grade no matter what. Why? IF-I are describing clarity in words, Interally Flawless, Very Very Slightly Included, Slightly Included, (heavily) Included 1/2/3.

A seller that are only willing to tell you the gemstone are Transparent, I would call that seller a deceiving one because they wont give you the neccessary information regarding good or bad quality at all. A bottle of Coke are Transparent and so are a glass window. Would anyone like to look outside their house through a window made of Coke bottles? I really dont think so ....

 

[Michael_E]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

Here's a link to the GIA's Colored Stone Clarity Grading guidelines: http://www.gem-appraisals.com/pdf/ColoredGemstoneGrading.pdf

Sapphire is a Type 1 gem and so the terminology that the GIA uses should follow these. I think that they've changed "Eye clean" to transparent in order to avoid the obvious question of, "To whose eye is this clean?". They also have a chart somewhere showing the "type" that a gem falls under. For instance a rubellite tourmaline or an emerald are type 3 gems and so obvious inclusions can still net the gem the grade of "Slightly included". Eye clean is always eye clean however. More food for thought.

 

[LimitedGems]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

Here's a link to the GIA's Colored Stone Clarity Grading guidelines: http://www.gem-appraisals.com/pdf/ColoredGemstoneGrading.pdf

Sapphire is a Type 1 gem and so the terminology that the GIA uses should follow these. I think that they've changed "Eye clean" to transparent in order to avoid the obvious question of, "To whose eye is this clean?". They also have a chart somewhere showing the "type" that a gem falls under. For instance a rubellite tourmaline or an emerald are type 3 gems and so obvious inclusions can still net the gem the grade of "Slightly included". Eye clean is always eye clean however. More food for thought.

I find that information quite interesting!

But why didn't GIA specify this on my Report? Actually, I haven't noticed this until now .. They usually specify "Source Type" .. uhm .. Maybe because I requested an Origin Report?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

I cant acutally understand how this would be deceiving or confusing at all. A dishonest seller will always be a dishonest seller and a good seller will always be a good one no matter how they choose to describe the clarity of their gemstones.

I mean, IF-I are describing clarity in words, Interally Flawless, Very Very Slightly Included, Slightly Included, (heavily) Included 1/2/3. As long as they follow the GIA 5c's it cant be deceiving no matter what material the gemstone are. A clarity will always be a clarity if following the guidelines.

The more confusing part are when a seller will only tell you the gemstone are "Transparent". Heavily included Transparent, slightly included Transparent, flawless Transparancy? Saying a legit seller cant describe any of their gemstones with grades from the GIA Diamond Scale will mean a seller can not tell a customer which type of inclusions the gemstone got. Because if describing the types of inclusions they will automatically fall back at the IF-I grade no matter what. Why? IF-I are describing clarity in words, Interally Flawless, Very Very Slightly Included, Slightly Included, (heavily) Included 1/2/3.

A seller that are only willing to tell you the gemstone are Transparent, I would call that seller a deceiving one because they wont give you the neccessary information regarding good or bad quality at all. A bottle of Coke are Transparent and so are a glass window. Would anyone like to look outside their house through a window made of Coke bottles? I really dont think so ....

To me, this is comparable to sellers that advertise EGL grades that they know are incorrect.
The excellent link that Michael E posted shows the GA does not use the same terminology for sapphires, and diamonds.
It's all about sellers using accurate information to sell diamonds and gemstones.
By all means, the seller needs to convey aspects of the sapphire's transparency- or clarity.
But the very fact that you thought you were buying a "flawless" sapphire goes to the fact that there's a lot of misinformation out there.

 

[mohsin95]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

Holy heck, can please provide GIA report numbers. It would really help us to better understand your situation.

 

[chrono]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

To me, this is comparable to sellers that advertise EGL grades that they know are incorrect. The excellent link that Michael E posted shows the GA does not use the same terminology for sapphires, and diamonds. It's all about sellers using accurate information to sell diamonds and gemstones. By all means, the seller needs to convey aspects of the sapphire's transparency- or clarity. But the very fact that you thought you were buying a "flawless" sapphire goes to the fact that there's a lot of misinformation out there.

Ditto David again. Those coming in from the diamond world, think that Flawless or IF makes a coloured stone extremely valuable and rare but that isn't the case. The clarity standard is very different for coloured stones and eye clean is the standard. Within each gem family or type, the expectation is also very different.
http://www.awesomegems.com/gemfacts.html

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Unheated Internally Flawless Sapphire (Origin Inconclusi

Thank you Chrono.
apologies for getting even further off topic....
I actually feel that the characteristics we associate with "clarity" in diamonds is really not how we judge colored stones in the first place-

Many of the finest sapphires actually get their color from "silk" - which would be a horrendous clarity characteristic in a diamond, other than a brown diamond.
Interestingly enough, brown diamonds and sapphires share this unusual aspect
You can look at certain brow diamonds, and sapphires through the pavilion and not see half the color you'll see coming through the table.
I'm sure others can speak more technically about this- but it has to do with using natural grain in the stone to amplify color.