Unscrupulous?! Scandalous?! Status Quo?!

[Lilac]

Never would have noticed this myself, but now that it''s been pointed out, it''s pretty clear!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 1:33:04 PM
Author: FrekeChild
WHAT ARE THEY ON?! (Second stone was flipped 180 degrees)

Yeah, at least be cunning about it...add some inclusions or something.

 

[FrekeChild]

It's like those pictures as a kid. What is different between these two images?

(in reference to the pads I photoshopped on the last page, WHY WOULD YOU MAKE THE WINDOW BIGGER?!)

 

[TravelingGal]

Hm, pic not uploading...

ETA, strange...nothing wrong with the pic, it can be downloaded.

 

[E B]

My favorites are the ones they didn't even bother to rotate. I guess they hoped people wouldn't look closely?

 

[Gailey]

Date: 3/3/2010 1:26:14 PM
Author: RockHugger

Date: 3/3/2010 1:22:08 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/3/2010 1:17:28 PM
Author: RockHugger
Looks like the same outside rim, but a photoshopped center...

Oh man that would suck if people have paid THOUSANDS for ''natural unheated'' or just heated Pads...and they are really BE treated. I have been thinking of a pad for a while...but not from NSC now!

I was being a bit extreme...I really don''t think they''d go that far....they''d have to be crooks to do that...

IMO, if you can tell a little lie to your customers...you can tell a big lie just as easy.

As we all know, pads fool experts.

 

[RockHugger]

I think they just think consumers are too stupid to see the photoshopping. Thats what happens when companies get too big for their britches..they get cocky.

 

[ma re]

It would be easier just to photograph the pair, but this makes it easier to justify the high prices for "perfectly matched, untreated stones".

I hope some of our cutters chime in on this thread, cause their expert opinion on the subject would be very valuable. Just to explain what degree of "matching" is realisticaly possible. I wonder.

Any of you have any kind of matched pairs of loose stones, just to show us for educational purposes, so that we can see how good of a match they are when compared to these NSC "pairs"?

 

[TravelingGal]

Well, at least the president is still the same, unless they''ve had two presidents named Michael.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Company/Office/

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 1:28:47 PM
Author: VapidLapid
Here is one of their in-house 'certs' for one of these alleged pairs, as they have it posted on their site

It's one thing to put a fraud like this up on the web as representing inventory. Perhaps that is just to entice people to make appointments for viewings, though what they would show someone who came in looking for these amazingly well matched pairs I have no idea. But what their 'certs' like this one now where they show the same stone twice and certify it as a matched pair. For me this calls into question their every claim and the veracity of any claims made on their in-house certificates. I made this discovery only because I was gearing up to buy one of their stones for a few thousand dollars and so Ive been on their website too much visiting the stone I liked and looking at absolutely everything else. Now I feel that they would have to provide me at no additional cost true independent certs (eg. GIA) for any and every thing they offer.

I've always thought their certs were worthless. Certification seems tricky to me generally, but just as it makes no sense to get an appraisal from the guy who is selling you the diamond, it makes no sense to get a cert from the company trying to sell you their stones. Independent is best.

As Gailey said, pads specifically can fool the most discerning gem dealer. Pads are tricky, and as others have mentioned, the definition of one seems like a moving target. I'm happy I worked with Richard, because he was very adamant about getting it certed through a reputable organization. I'm still impressed to this day how on the up and up he was about my entire pad process...and it really wasn't a pretty process at all.

If I still wanted more pads (and I don't...nor would I touch the stone ever with a 10 foot pole again), I would never use NSC.

 

[Gailey]

Now here''s an interesting pair of pads. I downloaded the image and then looked it with windows viewer and magnified it. It looks like someone has deliberately altered some of the facets around the outside to make it look like a different stone. Why go to all that bother when you are using the same centre?

This thread has been viewed over 700 times so far. Great advertising un-NSC!

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 3/3/2010 2:06:35 PM
Author: Gailey
Now here''s an interesting pair of pads. I downloaded the image and then looked it with windows viewer and magnified it. It looks like someone has deliberately altered some of the facets around the outside to make it look like a different stone. Why go to all that bother when you are using the same centre?

This thread has been viewed over 700 times so far. Great advertising un-NSC!

Yeah, and it''s just around the outside on that particular image. Well, the outside and a little bit in the middle.

I am so disturbed.

 

[VapidLapid]

this one is great; no mirror, no flipping, no rotation just a little dodging and burning

 

[T L]

Date: 3/3/2010 2:00:58 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/3/2010 1:28:47 PM
Author: VapidLapid
Here is one of their in-house ''certs'' for one of these alleged pairs, as they have it posted on their site

It''s one thing to put a fraud like this up on the web as representing inventory. Perhaps that is just to entice people to make appointments for viewings, though what they would show someone who came in looking for these amazingly well matched pairs I have no idea. But what their ''certs'' like this one now where they show the same stone twice and certify it as a matched pair. For me this calls into question their every claim and the veracity of any claims made on their in-house certificates. I made this discovery only because I was gearing up to buy one of their stones for a few thousand dollars and so Ive been on their website too much visiting the stone I liked and looking at absolutely everything else. Now I feel that they would have to provide me at no additional cost true independent certs (eg. GIA) for any and every thing they offer.

I''ve always thought their certs were worthless. Certification seems tricky to me generally, but just as it makes no sense to get an appraisal from the guy who is selling you the diamond, it makes no sense to get a cert from the company trying to sell you their stones. Independent is best.

As Gailey said, pads specifically can fool the most discerning gem dealer. Pads are tricky, and as others have mentioned, the definition of one seems like a moving target. I''m happy I worked with Richard, because he was very adamant about getting it certed through a reputable organization. I''m still impressed to this day how on the up and up he was about my entire pad process...and it really wasn''t a pretty process at all.

If I still wanted more pads (and I don''t...nor would I touch the stone ever with a 10 foot pole again), I would never use NSC.

There was a post here on PS, I wish I could find it now, where a customer sent her NSC padparadscha to an independent lab like the GIA, and it came back as being a pink sapphire and not a padparadscha or even an orange-pink sapphire. TGal, that was great that Richard sent your stone to an independent lab. For an expensive, and elusive gem, I wouldn''t want to work with a vendor that didn''t provide that service.

 

[E B]

Date: 3/3/2010 2:06:35 PM
Author: Gailey
Now here''s an interesting pair of pads. I downloaded the image and then looked it with windows viewer and magnified it. It looks like someone has deliberately altered some of the facets around the outside to make it look like a different stone. Why go to all that bother when you are using the same centre?

This thread has been viewed over 700 times so far. Great advertising un-NSC!

That''s the pair I described on page two. It looks like they put a lot of work into them.

Of the four pairs of pads ALONE, three (at least, I didn''t get to check the fourth) have been altered.

 

[RevolutionGems]

I will comment on matched pairs only.

Most of the pairs you see in the market are native cut. Since there isn''t really a "pattern" associated with the cut, there will always be different markers on each stone (i.e. missed meets, facet shape, stone depth). It is my understanding that, in the larger market, stones are not necessarily cut as pairs but are matched by face up color and size from larger parcels of cut stones.

That said, custom cutters like me can take two pieces of rough and cut them in the same pattern and the stones would look VERY similar, though differences could probably be detected with a close inspection.

So, it goes like this: Native stones may face up similar but will almost certainly display significant differences in cutting. Custom cut stones will be much better matched in cut and will probably be difficult to tell apart.

 

[VapidLapid]

I''m sorry. If you look only at the left stone in the blue pair above IT is mirrored left right. The left half of the stone is the mirror image of the right half!!!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 2:19:30 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 3/3/2010 2:00:58 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/3/2010 1:28:47 PM
Author: VapidLapid
Here is one of their in-house 'certs' for one of these alleged pairs, as they have it posted on their site

It's one thing to put a fraud like this up on the web as representing inventory. Perhaps that is just to entice people to make appointments for viewings, though what they would show someone who came in looking for these amazingly well matched pairs I have no idea. But what their 'certs' like this one now where they show the same stone twice and certify it as a matched pair. For me this calls into question their every claim and the veracity of any claims made on their in-house certificates. I made this discovery only because I was gearing up to buy one of their stones for a few thousand dollars and so Ive been on their website too much visiting the stone I liked and looking at absolutely everything else. Now I feel that they would have to provide me at no additional cost true independent certs (eg. GIA) for any and every thing they offer.

I've always thought their certs were worthless. Certification seems tricky to me generally, but just as it makes no sense to get an appraisal from the guy who is selling you the diamond, it makes no sense to get a cert from the company trying to sell you their stones. Independent is best.

As Gailey said, pads specifically can fool the most discerning gem dealer. Pads are tricky, and as others have mentioned, the definition of one seems like a moving target. I'm happy I worked with Richard, because he was very adamant about getting it certed through a reputable organization. I'm still impressed to this day how on the up and up he was about my entire pad process...and it really wasn't a pretty process at all.

If I still wanted more pads (and I don't...nor would I touch the stone ever with a 10 foot pole again), I would never use NSC.

There was a post here on PS, I wish I could find it now, where a customer sent her NSC padparadscha to an independent lab like the GIA, and it came back as being a pink sapphire and not a padparadscha or even an orange-pink sapphire. TGal, that was great that Richard sent your stone to an independent lab. For an expensive, and elusive gem, I wouldn't want to work with a vendor that didn't provide that service.

I remember that thread TL. I think NSC did make amends on that one though?

Not only the stone I own, but the one that threw everyone for a loop. I saw it and thought it was pretty. He could have left it at that, but said certs were needed and had me ship it directly to the lab. They met with him personally in Tuscon (I think it was) to let him know the results. Mortified, Richard went to great lengths to find me options before he called me. I think he didn't want to just call me and say "oops."

I love the stone he found for me. It's just a color I really like and it looks good in lighting conditions. But even though it's certified and I trust Richard, my experience with pads were so tricky that I sometimes look at it and think, who knows what it really is. I mean, I'm 99.9% sure it's what it's supposed to be, but pads seem so elusive and tricky that I just wonder from time to time, is all. If I hadn't bought from someone so reputable, I'd REALLY wonder about "pads" and what it means to be one.

But at the end of the day, I love the shape, color, and ring, and that's what matters I guess (especially since I know I got a great price even if it were a heated stone, which the cert says it's not.)

 

[chrono]

Ma Re,
I am up to the challenge. It’s pretty freaky how my pair of stones look like twins in this picture and it’s not even a vendor’s picture. Perhaps it has to do with it being a Richard Homer precision cut stone?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 1:54:10 PM
Author: ma re
It would be easier just to photograph the pair, but this makes it easier to justify the high prices for ''perfectly matched, untreated stones''.

I hope some of our cutters chime in on this thread, cause their expert opinion on the subject would be very valuable. Just to explain what degree of ''matching'' is realisticaly possible. I wonder.

Any of you have any kind of matched pairs of loose stones, just to show us for educational purposes, so that we can see how good of a match they are when compared to these NSC ''pairs''?

Mare, here''s Linda''s pad pair from NSC. A nice match, but obviously not exact. The faceting looks similar.

 

[VapidLapid]

Those are lovely amethysts. beautifully matched color and cut, but I wouldn''t mistake them as the same stone.

 

[RockHugger]

Date: 3/3/2010 2:34:13 PM
Author: Chrono
Ma Re,
I am up to the challenge. It’s pretty freaky how my pair of stones look like twins in this picture and it’s not even a vendor’s picture. Perhaps it has to do with it being a Richard Homer precision cut stone?

Very pretty chrono! But the difference between your stones and the NSC stones is the reflections. Your stones have different reflections (even if they have the same faceting). 2 stones side by side in the same light will have different reflections even if the photo is taken dead center.

 

[RockHugger]

Sent an e-mail to NCS regarding our descussion and asking about the photoshopping. My antagonstic line was about the NCS's word on treatment being more accurate then the pictures of the stones.

Here is the responce I recieved...


Thank you for your email.

There are 2 reasons why we occasionally duplicate a 2nd stone image in some of our pairs.

1. This is the main reason: Almost all of our pairs are in fact identical. Diamond cut gemstones with flawless clarity and exact color match do in fact look Exactly the same.

If one stone is slightly different color tone yet exactly the same faceting we will adjust one of the images colors.

There is no way to photograph a pair of gemstone in the most optimal way unless they are photographed separately and then put together in software editing.

2. In a full day’s work one full time employee they usually can properly finish photographing and editing FIVE to SIX gemstones. So in the case of pairs if the 2 stones look identical in hand, yet we still physically photo and edit each image we would be hard pressed to finish 3 pairs a day. When the stones look identical we find it useless and massively time consuming to duplicate an image that already looks exactly as the first one.

3. We have never had a complaint from anyone ordering our pairs that they were misrepresented. Our quality standards speak for themselves, we are a leader in full disclosure in this industry and proper representation of what we offer for sale.

You are more than welcome to visit our showroom in person and do an inspection for yourself if you wish. We are very confident in our quality control in what we offer for sale.

I’m sorry to read the last line of your email, it seems a bit antagonistic.

Thank you,

Michael Arnstein

The Natural Sapphire Company

 

[RockHugger]

I sent this in return.

I am sorry if it seems antagonistic, but alot of people are quite upset about it and some are now questioning your word on the sapphires treatment. Some of your stones are not only doubled, but are photoshopped to make one look like a different stone completely (by removing the center of the origional stone and pasting it into the center of another stone). That set is reference number PR1025-B. Please explain why this would be done.

 

[FrekeChild]

So this is their way of using a "stock" image. Those pink trillions are not EXACTLY IDENTICAL. That image shows them to be, well the same stone, but the others show obvious differences, AND the measurements are different.

***coughBScough***

ETA: I mean that the first image shows the mirror image, and the second and third pictures show two different stones, side by side.

 

[FrekeChild]

Here are some "screen shots" (in vista, known as snips) of what I''m talking about above.

 

[FrekeChild]

differences exist here...apparently they had enough time to take these photos...

 

[FrekeChild]

another

 

[Arcadian]

RH, thats the dumbest BS I ever heard. They are very clearly misrepresenting their product, even saying thats what they do in point number 2!


They''re already using photoshop to double the image, but then to say they''d have to have the pair manipulated in photoshop if they took a pic of the original pair together?

I smell a big heaping pile because that answer says right there, we''re not being truthful because if we were, you wouldn''t buy our product.


They do not have to worry about me being a customer based on that answer.


-A

 

[FrekeChild]

And finally, the info on the page, please note the measurements, which again, are not "identical".