Unscrupulous?! Scandalous?! Status Quo?!

[VapidLapid]

Any company that depends on the public that provides a market for the product that it publicly offers is tried and judged everyday in the court of public opinion.
It predates my being here in PS but I have now read that fox woman''s thread. I actually think she was a nut job who was relentless in looking for trouble regardless of how much she protested that. Thinly veiled legal threats of the sort like I am in law school and my dad is a lawyer and we''d hate to have to take them to court... are as disingenuous as Michael from NSC''s responses were then and are today. She came in swinging and looking to slur him IMO. He did not handle that one well, but at least he is consistent!
I find it disturbing today because we make up a large part of his potential client pool with not only our own purchases but our recommendations and word of mouth, or fingers.
This thread was viewed over fifteen hundred times in 20 hours! I am still sitting on the fence about buying from them. I had already talked myself into not holding it against the stone I like that most of their stones are poorly cut not really any better than the native cuts the come to them as. Now I''d like not to go back to my search but I''m not so comfortable plunking down $4k with them not because I fear the stone may not be what they say but because I dont like to reward his bad behavior and smarmy business practice and his blatant contempt for this abstract public us. Business must be good!

 

[Indylady]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:05:36 PM
Author: Helen@NSC

I hope you won’t privilege an internet thread where emotions are running high over almost ¾ of a century of good business, and I invite you to check us out for yourselves, one-on-one.

Of course I wouldn''t base an opinion on a thread, but I would certainly base an opinion on a conversation with the president of NSC.

How do you propose we check out the NSC?

I tried that earlier, and it didn''t sound like the NSC wanted to be "checked out".

 

[Maisie]

I have never been a customer of the NSC, or even requested a quote from them. I don''t feel emotional over this thread.

I doubt I would contact them after this, I really don''t like the idea of a rude or obnoxious sales person and I would worry about whether the photographs are of the actual item. I live too far away to be sending things back and forward if they weren''t as described.

 

[vinkalmann]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:19:54 PM
Author: VapidLapid
Any company that depends on the public that provides a market for the product that it publicly offers is tried and judged everyday in the court of public opinion.

It predates my being here in PS but I have now read that fox woman''s thread. I actually think she was a nut job who was relentless in looking for trouble regardless of how much she protested that. Thinly veiled legal threats of the sort like I am in law school and my dad is a lawyer and we''d hate to have to take them to court... are as disingenuous as Michael from NSC''s responses were then and are today. She came in swinging and looking to slur him IMO. He did not handle that one well, but at least he is consistent!

I find it disturbing today because we make up a large part of his potential client pool with not only our own purchases but our recommendations and word of mouth, or fingers.

This thread was viewed over fifteen hundred times in 20 hours! I am still sitting on the fence about buying from them. I had already talked myself into not holding it against the stone I like that most of their stones are poorly cut not really any better than the native cuts the come to them as. Now I''d like not to go back to my search but I''m not so comfortable plunking down $4k with them not because I fear the stone may not be what they say but because I dont like to reward his bad behavior and smarmy business practice and his blatant contempt for this abstract public us. Business must be good!

I totally hear where you''re coming from, but I would offer this up at the same time. The people that have helped me at the NSC have been nothing short of stellar. Prompt communication, accurate descriptions and a fair amount of hand holding when I was getting my fiance''s ring together. That wasn''t an isolated incident; I got the same treatment when I returned for a pair of earrings for a Christmas present. I originally chalked the good treatment up to the fact that I was buying a fairly expensive engagement ring stone, but the I got the same good service for the earrings which weren''t nearly as expensive.

NSC DOES stand behind their products. My fiance broke one of the studs on her earrings with a hula hoop, completely her fault. I asked NSC how much it would be to fix and they did it free of charge. A big +1 for me.

I don''t think duping pictures is ok, but NSC does a lot of things right at the same time.

 

[VapidLapid]

Thanks Vinklemann,

I like that you have had good experiences with them to balance things, and I rather doubt there was real malfeasance to their photographic policy, since ultimately any buyer would actually see what they would actually be getting. I am getting the distinct impression though that Michael''s only qualification to run this company, one with such an emotional product, is genetics.

 

[E B]

Helen,

Given all of this new information, you may want to 'alter' this guarantee:

10. Our Media Imaging Guarantee

We are a third generation family business. Since 1939 we have been trading in the finest sapphires available. We pride ourselves on offering a truly rare and valuable product to all of our customers.

It is certainly understandable to be concerned with the accuracy of the color and clarity of an item when shopping online. We use very advanced photography to capture a stone’s true color properties. What you see online is extremely accurate imaging. Our photography, video and scanning technology is never altered to falsely show the true properties of an item.

Some of your photos are of clearly different stones, while others have been mirrored/altered. Even your president admitted that if one of stones is a slightly different shade, you alter it to match. And while I don't buy his explanation for a second, if you're going to stand by it, you need to clearly state this on your website. Under each mirrored pair, in fact. It's only fair to the customer, esp. since s/he's on the hook for return shipping if s/he isn't pleased with the pair.

 

[RockHugger]

Good find EB!!!

 

[stepcutgirl]

Ya know with all the shilling that happened here a few months ago and the fact that what the NSC sells is so overpriced I never really considered them for my sapphire purchase but I was looking a pair of set earrings they had. Then add this and my desire to go with them dropped pretty low....but then you chew out one of us for trying to get both sides of the story before she formed an opinion?! Now not only will I never buy from them but I will strongly warn others against it as well!

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

My problem with NSC''s photographs is that it seems awfully paternalistic to me. As in, "They''re pretty much the same, so we decided that you don''t need to see pictures of BOTH stones...and trust us, we know." And excuse me, but I don''t deal well with paternalism. If I''M the consumer then I want to make the most well-informed decision based on ALL the information - and not just information the company decides to pick and choose for me to see. In a scenario like this, NSC isn''t a monopoly, and they don''t have all the bargaining power. As a consumer who can turn to other sources for sapphires, I have a certain amount of bargaining power too, and I don''t like to be treated as though I don''t, if that makes sense.

And btw, Indy, that was super inappropriate of NSC (the way they treated you). NO company has the right to be so rude to potential customers. Trust me, even if they resolve their photographic issues in the future and actually put pictures of both stones up, I will STILL remember that they treated a potential customer rudely.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 9:13:41 PM
Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl
My problem with NSC''s photographs is that it seems awfully paternalistic to me. As in, ''They''re pretty much the same, so we decided that you don''t need to see pictures of BOTH stones...and trust us, we know.'' And excuse me, but I don''t deal well with paternalism. If I''M the consumer then I want to make the most well-informed decision based on ALL the information - and not just information the company decides to pick and choose for me to see. In a scenario like this, NSC isn''t a monopoly, and they don''t have all the bargaining power. As a consumer who can turn to other sources for sapphires, I have a certain amount of bargaining power too, and I don''t like to be treated as though I don''t, if that makes sense.

And btw, Indy, that was super inappropriate of NSC (the way they treated you). NO company has the right to be so rude to potential customers. Trust me, even if they resolve their photographic issues in the future and actually put pictures of both stones up, I will STILL remember that they treated a potential customer rudely.

Sure they have the right. And we have the right not to deal with them if we don''t like it.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Date: 3/3/2010 9:15:35 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/3/2010 9:13:41 PM

Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl

My problem with NSC''s photographs is that it seems awfully paternalistic to me. As in, ''They''re pretty much the same, so we decided that you don''t need to see pictures of BOTH stones...and trust us, we know.'' And excuse me, but I don''t deal well with paternalism. If I''M the consumer then I want to make the most well-informed decision based on ALL the information - and not just information the company decides to pick and choose for me to see. In a scenario like this, NSC isn''t a monopoly, and they don''t have all the bargaining power. As a consumer who can turn to other sources for sapphires, I have a certain amount of bargaining power too, and I don''t like to be treated as though I don''t, if that makes sense.


And btw, Indy, that was super inappropriate of NSC (the way they treated you). NO company has the right to be so rude to potential customers. Trust me, even if they resolve their photographic issues in the future and actually put pictures of both stones up, I will STILL remember that they treated a potential customer rudely.

Sure they have the right. And we have the right not to deal with them if we don''t like it.

Hmm...maybe more like, they have no excuse for treating customers so badly? You''re right, they have the right....but I guess to me, it''s one of those "Why would you ever shoot yourself in the foot like that??" moves (being rude that is!). And hey, if it''s someone like Leon, who has undisputed talent, I''ll deal with it, but if it''s a company who carries products that I easily find elsewhere (and for better quality, to distinguish this from the Leon comparison) then I find it very...inexcusable.

 

[princesss]

Wow. They must not think very highly of their customers'' intellect to admit that they edit the photos, and then say they don''t alter the photos.

I buy gems from people who take photos that are an accurate representation of the stone I am buying. Part of what draws me to a stone is the faceting - if the pictures are duplicated, how can I see if the faceting appeals to me?

I am not buying the excuses NSC is providing, and I will stop suggesting them as a potential vendor to my friends who are in the market for a sapphire.

 

[FrekeChild]

I have no words. I''ll be back when I have something coherent to say.

 

[Chrometsav]

As a recent member to this forum I never really 'got it' when looking at the threads and the number of times they are recommended. As others have said their pricing is on the moon so do you really expect to end up with a bad stone or two?

You could hardly be accused of cutting corners to potentially get a bargain or be punting on a hunch from a guy in Somalia with a web listing and ending up with egg on your face could you?

I cringe at some of the prices that the niche cutters list for certain stones (especially Tanzanite) but at least they can fall back on spectacular designer cuts, colours and on the whole high quality abstract material.

NSC appears to offer same old same old to me just not treated as their only angle to be unique from others. Hardly a new concept is it.


Never have, never would even consider them. Not at all surprised they're up to this, it's the gem trade after all!

To each their own I guess!

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:19:03 PM
Author: StonieGrl
NSC: You can sprinkle all the powdered sugar you have over this ''situation'' and that still won''t make it a donut.


To the NSC Head Rudester: YOUR company came here to shill and cozy up to US, we don''t ''need'' you. We have fantastic stone sources you could not dream of, they cut for QUALITY not carat size first. And by being that rude to one of us, you just lost a nice bit of biz and anyone googling your company prior to a buy will easily be able to see this thread.


Bottom Line: We don''t need YOU but you need clients. Good Luck with that, you''re going to require it!

DITTO 110%.

I was never a fan of NSC, especially after all the BS schilling in recent times.

If you''re going to offer native cut stones at exorbitant prices, you have to be holding something pretty great in the other hand - right now, it looks like NSC are again left holding doo-doo

I for one have permanently scratched them, and will be directing future PS''ers to these and other questionable threads.


Who wants to bet me a precison - cut sapphire that 3 or 4 more schill threads start showing up in coming weeks/months..?

 

[redfaerythinker]

"after 71 years, we’re adapting to a lot of new technology through a process of trial-and-error."

I have refrained from posting in this thread but this made me pipe up. It's just too funny. So Helen, your basically saying that your business is just adapting to the "new technology"? Unless I am vastly mistaken, gemstone faceting and the art of photography aren't exactly new. So that can't be what you're talking about... and the internet in it's current state has been around for over a decade... so that can't be it either. Photoshop has been around for about the same amount of time... so that can't be it either. So barring complete ineptitude on your part, the only thing you're "trying out" is laziness and deception just to further your bottom line. I would be extremely interested to see the evidence of the other companies of your size that use this "technology". I'm sorry... but in this day and age, people's money is precious. I would never spend my hard earned money at a company like yours. I value integrity, and good customer service, and it seems you have neither.

PS. I'm glad to see that your efforts to become a part of the community here have been going so well, frankly I have a stapler that would be a less self serving and more active member.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:05:36 PM
Author: Helen@NSC

Pretty much every other company of our size out there uses stock photos as a matter of course. Comparatively speaking, our pieces are individually photographed and listed with a lot of information for the purpose of full disclosure, and the presentation of our pairs for the effect that they will have under normal viewing circumstances was a decision that we didn’t foresee causing this sort of concern. We apologize for any confusion.

Respectfully snipped.

Helen, I appreciate you were directed to make this post. I just wanted to tell you that I have over 100 gem sites bookmarked that I look at on a regular basis. I see stock changing, along with corresponding photographs on all bar a few. I am going to go back over each of them to see if anybody has adopted your pairs policy. I''ll report back.

As to the blue pair that I posted that you say specifically were not photoshopped, I''m no expert, so I will refrain from offering further opinion. But you can be sure that there are Photoshop experts out there. I''m sure someone will chime in at some point.

 

[redfaerythinker]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:56:06 PM
Author: E B
Helen,


Given all of this new information, you may want to ''alter'' this guarantee:


10. Our Media Imaging Guarantee


We are a third generation family business. Since 1939 we have been trading in the finest sapphires available. We pride ourselves on offering a truly rare and valuable product to all of our customers.


It is certainly understandable to be concerned with the accuracy of the color and clarity of an item when shopping online. We use very advanced photography to capture a stone’s true color properties. What you see online is extremely accurate imaging. Our photography, video and scanning technology is never altered to falsely show the true properties of an item.


Some of your photos are of clearly different stones, while others have been mirrored/altered. Even your president admitted that if one of stones is a slightly different shade, you alter it to match. And while I don''t buy his explanation for a second, if you''re going to stand by it, you need to clearly state this on your website. Under each mirrored pair, in fact. It''s only fair to the customer, esp. since s/he''s on the hook for return shipping if s/he isn''t pleased with the pair.

I was almost feeling bad for the snarkiness of my previous post... but then I saw this...

Now I don''t feel so bad.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 3/4/2010 12:09:51 AM
Author: redfaerythinker
''after 71 years, we’re adapting to a lot of new technology through a process of trial-and-error.''

I have refrained from posting in this thread but this made me pipe up. It''s just too funny. So Helen, your basically saying that your business is just adapting to the ''new technology''? Unless I am vastly mistaken, gemstone faceting and the art of photography aren''t exactly new. So that can''t be what you''re talking about... and the internet in it''s current state has been around for over a decade... so that can''t be it either. Photoshop has been around for about the same amount of time... so that can''t be it either. So barring complete ineptitude on your part, the only thing you''re ''trying out'' is laziness and deception just to further your bottom line. I would be extremely interested to see the evidence of the other companies of your size that use this ''technology''. I''m sorry... but in this day and age, people''s money is precious. I would never spend my hard earned money at a company like yours. I value integrity, and good customer service, and it seems you have neither.

PS. I''m glad to see that your efforts to become a part of the community here have been going so well, frankly I have a stapler that would be a less self serving and more active member.

Um. She said how I feel PERFECTLY. Only if I weren''t on PS, it would have a LOT more expletives. HUZZAH RFT!

 

[mariedtiger]

I'm disappointed reading this thread.

Indy big hugs to you, I respect you for what you did, giving the company a chance to respond

I personally think you were very brave as well

 

[Ella]

I know everyone is frustrated by the situation, but please stick to the facts and do not post personal attacks on anyone, including gem vendors.

 

[ma re]

To answer the question of "why would they bother altering photos to make them look like two different stones?" - well, that tells you there''s a good chance these stones look like even less of a matched pair without the photo alteration. My only question to them at this point would be: would it be so time-consuming to type a simple, one sentence, note about the possible photo alteration on some photos of pairs (for reasons specified/justified by them) and placing it where ever necessary? I can type it, click "copy" and then click "paste" a hundred times, and all together it wouldn''t take me more than two minutes to do it. But then, that would probably confuse and chase away some customers, so it''s better to just do what ever you like and hope no one will ever notice. So basically, they don''t have the time to individually photograph thousand of dollars (each worth of gemstones (which I don''t even know why would it be necessary since we''re talking about pairs), but somehow they do manage to find the time to photoshop, change tones of colors, mirror/rotate/whatnot the images...

I''m not that dumb, and I''m pretty sure our members here aren''t either.

Good thing NSC isn''t a child adoption service. By their logic, in case of identical twins, it would be enough for you to see only the photo of one of them, cause they''re basically the same.

P. S. I know it would be against the rules (hope we can make some exceptions here), but it would be interesting to see a pair of perfectly matched, most precisely cut pair of colorless diamonds available on the market. I''m pretty sure you could even spot differences in such a case.

 

[chrono]

Date: 3/4/2010 7:00:22 AM
Author: ma re
To answer the question of ''why would they bother altering photos to make them look like two different stones?'' - well, that tells you there''s a good chance these stones look like even less of a matched pair without the photo alteration. My only question to them at this point would be: would it be so time-consuming to type a simple, one sentence, note about the possible photo alteration on some photos of pairs (for reasons specified/justified by them) and placing it where ever necessary? I can type it, click ''copy'' and then click ''paste'' a hundred times, and all together it wouldn''t take me more than two minutes to do it. But then, that would probably confuse and chase away some customers, so it''s better to just do what ever you like and hope no one will ever notice. So basically, they don''t have the time to individually photograph thousand of dollars (each worth of gemstones (which I don''t even know why would it be necessary since we''re talking about pairs), but somehow they do manage to find the time to photoshop, change tones of colors, mirror/rotate/whatnot the images...

I''m not that dumb, and I''m pretty sure our members here aren''t either.

Good thing NSC isn''t a child adoption service. By their logic, in case of identical twins, it would be enough for you to see only the photo of one of them, cause they''re basically the same.

P. S. I know it would be against the rules (hope we can make some exceptions here), but it would be interesting to see a pair of perfectly matched, most precisely cut pair of colorless diamonds available on the market. I''m pretty sure you could even spot differences in such a case.

The thing that I do not understand is that NSC apparently has time to take the side view and pavilion view of the real pair of sapphires but does not have time to take the face up picture?

 

[Gailey]

Last night I looked at the pairs listed at Gem Select. I looked at every pair at their largest image size for 15 pages (150 pairs). They actually have 2,662 pairs listed in total. Of the small sample that I looked at every image showed two distinctly different but matched stones. So then I chose to look at just blue round sapphires of which they have 41 pairs not one image matched another. So no stock photography there, never mind mirrored images of one stone.

Now Helen did say that "Pretty much every other company of our size" uses stock images, so I guess Gem Select, who has long been suspected of digitally altering their images, was not necessarily a good comparison, clearly they are a far bigger organisation. So who would be a good comparable to look at? I did try Cherrypicked but there site is down again.

Maybe Helen could offer some specific examples?

 

[Arcadian]

maybe simply sapphires? they could also be quite small (I''ve never done business with them, so its a guess)


-A

 

[lelser]

Date: 3/3/2010 2:34:13 PM
Author: Chrono
Ma Re,

I am up to the challenge. It’s pretty freaky how my pair of stones look like twins in this picture and it’s not even a vendor’s picture. Perhaps it has to do with it being a Richard Homer precision cut stone?

These are a pair I cut - and long since sold so no conflict with posting them I hope. To the eye they look extremely well matched, but the camera is unforgiving. Greens and blues seem to be particularly difficult to photograph for pairs.

 

[Gailey]

At Simply Sapphires the only stock image I saw there was the one of the little trilliant that sits next to the word "Details"

But let's see what other people think.

Same stone or not people?

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I have been searching through Multicolour (another huge seller) and even their cheaper, $100 or less, pairs are individually photographed.

 

[Helen@NSC]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:17:38 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/3/2010 6:05:36 PM

Author: Helen@NSC

P.S. – A good number of the pairs listed in this thread are actually clean of photoshopping (ironically enough PR1025-B is one of them - table-size aside, they really do have very similar cuts), and no, we’ve never engaged in shilling. I’m a big fan of the mea culpa when necessary, and there’d be no point to my defending the practice just to turn around and deny its application. I’m just saying that perhaps you might be willing to consider that after 71 years, we’re adapting to a lot of new technology through a process of trial-and-error. We’re not perfect, but we do everything we can to make our clients happy IRL. I hope you won’t privilege an internet thread where emotions are running high over almost ¾ of a century of good business, and I invite you to check us out for yourselves, one-on-one.

Seriously?


Emotions running high? You''re kidding me, right? Do you mean because we''re passionate about representing a product correctly, that somehow we''re being emotional and therefore irrational? Hm.

TGal, the word irrational wouldn''t pass my lips - I respect the PS community really highly. "Emotions running high" is a phrase I would only use in the context of that paragraph, to reference the fact that it looks like the photoshopping issue is leading people to believe that we''d engage in chicanery like shilling, or misrepresenting the fact that our stones are natural, to name just two possible fears mentioned in this thread. We have never, and would never engage in either of those behaviors. I hope I didn''t give offense with the phrasing.

 

[Gailey]

Posts about the Natural Sapphire Company are a bit like London busses. You don''t see one for ages and then a whole pile of them arrive together.