use of the term "wholesale"

[imback]

if you sell a diamond that is priced at or below the price that wholesalers commonly sell comparable diamonds to other trade members, then it is not incorrect to refer to the price as being comparable to wholesale prices, regardless of who you are selling it to. it might not be a wholesale TRANSACTION, but it IS a wholesale PRICE.

as for the legalities of the term "wholesale", that depends on the jurisdiction. in many jurisdiction, perhaps even in most, there is no law specifically preventing truthful use of the term when offering diamonds for sale to the public.

i am not advocating one way or the other, nor i''m i denying the common abuse of the term. i''m only noting that the propriety and legality regarding the use of the term is far from being as black and white as some have claimed.

 

[Rhino]

It''s use is of course relative. For example certain branded H&A''s sell at X% at or over list to their distributors which are marked up from there. (HoF for example). There are sellers here offering identical quality goods (if not better) to the public at the same prices which these wholesalers are selling to their distributors. So in this sense one could say they are getting an H&A at a wholesale cost but then again ... its all relative.

By definition any vendor, person, website, B&M store, or even someone who claims to be a wholesaler ... if they are selling to the public IT IS RETAIL.

 

[imback]

Date: 6/18/2005 3:20:21 PM
Author: Rhino
... if they are selling to the public IT IS RETAIL.

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"retail" what???? transaction or price? it is a retail TRANSACTION, but if the price is the same as wholesale prices, then it is TRUE to refer the the price as a wholesale price.

 

[Mara]

definition of wholesale:

whole·sale ( P ) (hlsl)

n.
The sale of goods in large quantities, as for resale by a retailer.


So technically if someone sells ONE stone to ONE customer, is not technically a wholesale transaction, it's a retail transaction.

'Below wholesale' or 'wholesale pricing' is just terminology. It makes you feel like you are getting some great special deal, the seller is still making a profit from the sale. I have seen 'wholesale' prices on diamond websites that are more than some of the PS vendors here for similar goods. One says wholesale, one does not. Misuse of the term to try to drive traffic and get sales is just confusing consumers.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 6/18/2005 3:33:24 PM
Author: imback

Date: 6/18/2005 3:20:21 PM
Author: Rhino
... if they are selling to the public IT IS RETAIL.

-------------

''retail'' what???? transaction or price? it is a retail TRANSACTION, but if the price is the same as wholesale prices, then it is TRUE to refer the the price as a wholesale price.

Both retail price and retail transaction. If the sale is being made to the end consumer and NOT for resales purposes it is retail no matter which way you slice it.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 6/18/2005 4:15:28 PM
Author: Mara
definition of wholesale:

whole·sale ( P ) (hlsl)

n.
The sale of goods in large quantities, as for resale by a retailer.


So technically if someone sells ONE stone to ONE customer, is not technically a wholesale transaction, it''s a retail transaction.

''Below wholesale'' or ''wholesale pricing'' is just terminology. It makes you feel like you are getting some great special deal, the seller is still making a profit from the sale. I have seen ''wholesale'' prices on diamond websites that are more than some of the PS vendors here for similar goods. One says wholesale, one does not. Misuse of the term to try to drive traffic and get sales is just confusing consumers.

Now that''s hitting the nail on the head.

 

[RockDoc]

One might read the court''s opinion relevant to Sam''s Wholesale Club.


Notice it isn''t called that anymore..... It''s "Sam''s Club"


Generally the disctinction legally between wholesale and retail is based on the use of the purchaser.

It doesn''t have anything to do with purchasing in volume.


An END USER or sometimes called the "Utlimate Consumer" is one that will by for the purpose of using the item himself ( or herself).

If the item is purchased for the intended use of reselling the item, then it is wholesale.

In a particular instance ( depending on the statute and case law of the state of jurisdiction) saying you are selling at the same price as is commonly charged to a reseller is most likely an acceptable practice.

Terms like "Wholesale to the Public" is essentially misleading, so if your local state attorney or the FTC asks, you should have a "ton" of support for making such a claim.

Some trade organization forbid their members from misrepresenting their position in the marketplace. AGS is one of these organizations, and intently monitors its members advertising practices, and does follow up when a consumer complains about a member.

Percentage Off Discounting has been argued in many states. There are some federal guidelines for this.
For those more interested - I believe a lot is posted about this on the FTC site.


Rockdoc

 

[denverappraiser]

Welcome back,

“Wholesale Price” is simply not a valid term. Every transaction has elements other than price that are important to the deal and transactions between dealers for resale are no exception. They are not all conducted at the same price, even for the exact same stone. It’s wildly inappropriate to view the price of the deal in isolation and it is flatly deceptive to tell consumers that ‘wholesale price’ is some sort of fixed value that is independent of the marketplace.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[imback]

all of you are either missing the point, or deliberately avoiding it. if a diamond is priced to a retail customer at the same price as it is priced to a wholesale customer, it is TRUE that it is a wholesale price. if the wholesale price is $4000 for instance, and it is sold to a retail customer for $4000, then it is sold for a wholesale price. period. if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. this is an immutable fact of logic. it is what it is.

now, if you want to say that since a retail customer paid $4000 it is ALSO a retail price, fine. but that does not refute the fact that is is also a WHOLESALE PRICE. if the wholesale price is $4000, and it is sold for $4000, then it is sold for a wholesale price, REGARDLESS of who it was sold to. the price is the price. $4000 is $4000. if the wholesale price is $4000, and the diamond is sold for $4000, then it was sold for a wholesale price...period.

again, this is not to say that it is not also a retail price, only that if the wholesale and retail price are the same, it is therefore true to say that the price is wholesale.

and also again, this is NOT to be confused with the FALSE claim regarding price. if the price is NOT equal to the wholesale price, in otherwords, if the wholesale price is actually only $3000 , and it is being sold for $4000, then the price is clearly NOT wholesale. that is a whole different thing.

 

[JohnQuixote]

So in order to offer a 'wholesale price' somone would have to source it upstream, then sell it to the end-user at no profit.

For instance - I go to the cutting factory, bang on the door and buy a diamond at 'wholesale.' I then sell it to the public for the identical amount - no markups whatsoever. This is the 'wholesale price.'

Or perhaps I'm not getting it either.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 6/18/2005 5:55:47 PM
Author: imback
all of you are either missing the point, or deliberately avoiding it. if a diamond is priced to a retail customer at the same price as it is priced to a wholesale customer, it is TRUE that it is a wholesale price. if the wholesale price is $4000 for instance, and it is sold to a retail customer for $4000, then it is sold for a wholesale price. period. if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. this is an immutable fact of logic. it is what it is.

now, if you want to say that since a retail customer paid $4000 it is ALSO a retail price, fine. but that does not refute the fact that is is also a WHOLESALE PRICE. if the wholesale price is $4000, and it is sold for $4000, then it is sold for a wholesale price, REGARDLESS of who it was sold to. the price is the price. $4000 is $4000. if the wholesale price is $4000, and the diamond is sold for $4000, then it was sold for a wholesale price...period.

again, this is not to say that it is not also a retail price, only that if the wholesale and retail price are the same, it is therefore true to say that the price is wholesale.

and also again, this is NOT to be confused with the FALSE claim regarding price. if the price is NOT equal to the wholesale price, in otherwords, if the wholesale price is actually only $3000 , and it is being sold for $4000, then the price is clearly NOT wholesale. that is a whole different thing.

And who is the one who determines that it is indeed a *true* wholesale price? THE SELLER?!?! Virtually every single diamond I''ve ever appraised and the consumer told me they got the stone for "wholesale" was pure bunk.

You see ... this is entering a game of semantics which is primarily designed to make a retail client feel good. According to your definition I am a wholesaler however I would NEVER in a million years advertise myself as such since that would be *false advertising*. Integrity is important to me and the folks who participate here so we avoid any appearance or insinuation of lying. I''m not saying you''re lying but I think you may be mislead in your thinking ... probably by a dealer who is leading you to believe that you are paying wholesale when this in fact is probably not the case.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/18/2005 8:34:29 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 6/18/2005 5:55:47 PM
Author: imback
all of you are either missing the point, or deliberately avoiding it. if a diamond is priced to a retail customer at the same price as it is priced to a wholesale customer, it is TRUE that it is a wholesale price. if the wholesale price is $4000 for instance, and it is sold to a retail customer for $4000, then it is sold for a wholesale price. period. if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. this is an immutable fact of logic. it is what it is.

now, if you want to say that since a retail customer paid $4000 it is ALSO a retail price, fine. but that does not refute the fact that is is also a WHOLESALE PRICE. if the wholesale price is $4000, and it is sold for $4000, then it is sold for a wholesale price, REGARDLESS of who it was sold to. the price is the price. $4000 is $4000. if the wholesale price is $4000, and the diamond is sold for $4000, then it was sold for a wholesale price...period.

again, this is not to say that it is not also a retail price, only that if the wholesale and retail price are the same, it is therefore true to say that the price is wholesale.

and also again, this is NOT to be confused with the FALSE claim regarding price. if the price is NOT equal to the wholesale price, in otherwords, if the wholesale price is actually only $3000 , and it is being sold for $4000, then the price is clearly NOT wholesale. that is a whole different thing.

And who is the one who determines that it is indeed a *true* wholesale price? THE SELLER?!?! Virtually every single diamond I''ve ever appraised and the consumer told me they got the stone for ''wholesale'' was pure bunk.

You see ... this is entering a game of semantics which is primarily designed to make a retail client feel good. According to your definition I am a wholesaler however I would NEVER in a million years advertise myself as such since that would be *false advertising*. Integrity is important to me and the folks who participate here so we avoid any appearance or insinuation of lying. I''m not saying you''re lying but I think you may be mislead in your thinking ... probably by a dealer who is leading you to believe that you are paying wholesale when this in fact is probably not the case.

Rhino
I think this is actually the case with imback. I would never expect to be able to buy from the manufacturer at wholesale price if I am only buying one stone. Now, if I am buying $500K+ worth, that may be a different story. These days, with the profit margin already so low, it''s pretty hard to beat e-vendor prices for the same kind of quality cut stone. I don''t believe in a friend of a friend or a friend of a uncle kind of story who''s in the diamond wholesale business . they''re the ones that usually charge higher price.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/18/2005 5:55:47 PM
Author: imback
... if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. this is an immutable fact of logic. it is what it is.

''A'' is not a fixed number. ''Wholesale'' is not a specific price. The numbers listed in Rappaport and similar sheets are not prices. Read the fine print. The price for any single diamond will vary considerably based on the conditions under which it is sold, who it is sold to, where it is sold and under what terms it''s sold. ''Wholesale price'' is no more a valid number than ''blue book'' is with used cars.

Your logic fails in the first step.

God is love.
Love is blind.
Jose Felliciano is blind.
Therefore, Jose Felliciano is God.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

As far as cheap prices go, wouldn''t you offer better prices to better customeres? Customers who buy in the $200k per year margain are obviously going to get the best deals. Cutters don''t sell one by one. People in the trade don''t always buy that cheaply either. You have to comnpare apples with apples.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/18/2005 3:33:24 PM
Author: imback

Date: 6/18/2005 3:20:21 PM
Author: Rhino
... if they are selling to the public IT IS RETAIL.

-------------

'retail' what???? transaction or price? it is a retail TRANSACTION, but if the price is the same as wholesale prices, then it is TRUE to refer the the price as a wholesale price.

imback
there is no such thing as WHOLESALE price at the consumer level, if we only buy one stone at a time. look at it this way....why would a maufacturer like Intel sell me (1) Pentium chip for the same price as they would to companys like HP or Dell? who buys 20,000 units at a time.Intel wouldn't even talk to me or you.

 

[imback]

Date: 6/18/2005 6:48:56 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
So in order to offer a ''wholesale price'' somone would have to source it upstream, then sell it to the end-user at no profit.


For instance - I go to the cutting factory, bang on the door and buy a diamond at ''wholesale.'' I then sell it to the public for the identical amount - no markups whatsoever. This is the ''wholesale price.''


Or perhaps I''m not getting it either.

--------------

excellent! by switching to a different point, the above remark at least seems to indicate acceptance of the fact that IF the retail customer pays the same amount as a wholesale customer, then the price paid by the retail customer is also a wholesale price.

now, lets look at the diferent point made above. instead of contradicting my point, John questions the POSSIBILITY of selling to a retail customer at a wholesale price. it does not contradict the fact that IF it was done, then it would be true to refer to the price as a wholesale price.

again, this is a very different point than what i made. BUT, let''s address it.

it is most certainly, and not at all surprisingly, quite possible to sell to a retail customer at the same price as a wholesale customer. AND it is NOT uncommon! AND it can be done at a profit! AND many times businesses sell items at no profit, or even below cost!

quite simply, John''s remark that " in order to offer a ''wholesale price'' somone would have to source it upstream, then sell it to the end-user at no profit" is incorrect, and unsupported by fact or reasoning.

but again, in any case, it does not contradict my original point, and even seems to acknowledge the correctness of my original point.

my main purpose of starting the thread was to counter the mistaken and/or misleading claims others have made about the use of the term "wholesale". although the term is abused, it only further hurts the consumer to make mistaken or misleading claims about the use of the term. the abuse of the term is best fought by fact and reason. simplistic and fallacious remarks move the effort backward instead of forward.

as i stated in my original post, i am not advocating use of the term one way or the other, nor i''m i denying the common abuse of the term. i''m only noting that the propriety and legality regarding the use of the term is far from being as black and white as some have claimed.

 

[AZDiamondGuy]

Bottom line - unless you are reselling you cannot use the term wholesale.

 

[imback]

"... According to your definition I am a wholesaler ...... " Rhino

---------------------


i made NO such assertion! i made NO such "definition". please try to NOT distort my point. this is a common tactic when one cannot or is unwilling to take the effort to offer fact or reason to contradict the actual point. it hurts debate. it degrades the discussion.

 

[imback]

"....... I'm not saying you're lying but I think you may be mislead in your thinking ... probably by a dealer who is leading you to believe that you are paying wholesale when this in fact is probably not the case....." Rhino

---------------

"not lying"?????????? well thank you very much for saying that you're not saying i'm lying!!!! since you're being so nice to say that you're not saying i'm lying, i'm also saying that i'm not saying YOU'RE lying!!

by the way...what is it that you are you saying that you are not saying i'm lying about????? and wouldn't it be easier just to not say that i'm lying, rather than to say that you are not saying that i'm lying??

and again, why not stick to the point, rather than starting this whole personal aside about your suspicions about what you say you're not saying i'm lying about??

 

[imback]

"''A'' is not a fixed number. ''Wholesale'' is not a specific price. The numbers listed in Rappaport and similar sheets are not prices. Read the fine print. The price for any single diamond will vary considerably based on the conditions under which it is sold, who it is sold to, where it is sold and under what terms it''s sold. ''Wholesale price'' is no more a valid number than ''blue book'' is with used cars."

-----------------

btw, the above "points" have nothing to do with anything i said. stick to the actual points unless your purpose is to degrade rather than to contribute.

 

[imback]

"....why would a maufacturer like Intel sell me (1) Pentium chip for the same price as they would to companys like HP or Dell? who buys 20,000 units at a time.Intel wouldn''t even talk to me or you...."

---------------

i''m sorry, i didn''t realize i was referring to buying one intel chip instead of 20,000.

i thought i was referring to selling a diamond, not a chip, and i thought i was comparing the sale of one diamond to the sale of one diamond, not the sale of one diamond to the sale of 20,000 diamonds.

but what ever suits you...

 

[AZDiamondGuy]

It''s actually very black and white. Retail means "to sell to the end user". Wholesale means "for resale". That''s it. Period.

There is just a lot of confusion because everyone says "wholesale prices to the public".

 

[imback]

Date: 6/19/2005 9:54:02 AM
Author: Feydakin

What is it exactly that you want to hear??

-----------------

i just reread my original post. i couldn''t find anything about wanting "to hear" something.

 

[RockDoc]

This thread is really ridiculous.


Anyhow since no one really bothered to find what the proper legal definition is and the LAW about it - here it is.

http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Mar/1/128505.html

There is more than what is on that link, and to be through one should review the entire FTC "rules" and also any related case law, that has been published on the subject.

There is a lot of opinion and decision about this.

Imback - regardless of whether you agree, this is the LAW.

End of story.


ROCKDOC

 

[perry]

imback:

I will accept that it is possible for someone to sell an item at the same cost, or even below the cost, that they paid for the item.

While you may apply the term "Wholesale" price to someone who sells it to you at their cost I do not understand why that would normally happen.

The two situations that I am aware where it could happen are:

1) The business is selling you an entire package of items and/or services and they are selling one of them at "Wholesale" to make the customer feel good - but making profit on the other items and or services (overall the entire package is not at wholesale cost).

2) The business is clearing their inventory for whatever cash they can get. Most common in clearance sales on items that did not sell or in going out of business sales (I will note that I attended an "diamond clearance sale" from a local jeweler going out of business: and they were not actually willing to sell any diamonds below their cost becasue they could return them).

I would like to point out that selling you an item at the "price" that is charged another vendor is not necessarily "wholesale" pricing.

The truth of business is that there are many ways that companies and businesses structure their sales cost and profits.

Two common stratagies are:

A) that a person buying a large quantity (per order, per quarter, per year, etc) gets a better price than a person buying a smaller quantity.

B) volume rebates based on the total volumn of items or services moved in a period.

There are many variations on these, and even combinations of them.

Hence, I run a business selling, for example, energy drinks. I can sell you the items for exactly the same "price" that I pay for them myself (and in fact I have customers that I do that with); but what you may or may not know is that I get an additional payment based on the volumn of energy drinks, etc, that moved through my business (most know, but they know that I have to make a profit on the products in order to be in business). Now were you getting "wholesale" pricing because you pay what I pay; or were you not? Furhter complicating if you wish to include the effect of the volumn bonus is that the volumn bounus changes based on the total volumn involved. Thus someone selling the same product may not get any volumn bonus, and another gets considerable volumn bonus. What is the true wholesale price: Is it based on someone getting a 0%, 27%, or something in the middle, volumn bounus? What about other boneses the business makes? The reality is that each situation is different, and I would not even want to guess at how you would really approach this.

By far the most common use of the term is as a sales tactic - and actual "wholesale" pricing is rare indeed (except for legitimate clearance sales).

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/19/2005 10:30:12 AM
Author: RockDoc

This thread is really ridiculous.

That sums it up nicely

 

[Lord Summerisle]

I buy stuff from a cash n carry wholeseller... i then sell em on starting at the wholesale price on eBay in the hope it''ll go higher.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/19/2005 9:55:14 AM
Author: imback
''....why would a maufacturer like Intel sell me (1) Pentium chip for the same price as they would to companys like HP or Dell? who buys 20,000 units at a time.Intel wouldn''t even talk to me or you....''

---------------

i''m sorry, i didn''t realize i was referring to buying one intel chip instead of 20,000.

i thought i was referring to selling a diamond, not a chip, and i thought i was comparing the sale of one diamond to the sale of one diamond, not the sale of one diamond to the sale of 20,000 diamonds.

but what ever suits you...

no difference. my point is a diamond maufacturer wouldn''t even talk to me about selling me one diamond at wholesale price.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/19/2005 9:59:09 AM
Author: MrGG
It''s actually very black and white. Retail means ''to sell to the end user''. Wholesale means ''for resale''. That''s it. Period.

There is just a lot of confusion because everyone says ''wholesale prices to the public''.

no such thing.when i see those newspaper ads,i know is BS.nobody stays in business by selling (at cost) a 10k diamond for 10k.unless they can replace the stone for under 10k.