What Did You Think of Bibi's Speech?

[Maisie]

I don't believe there will ever be a true peace in the middle east while Israel is there. Its not about land. Its about Israel. They are hated by their neighbours. Peace agreements are fragile. I fear that a two state solution may be forced upon Israel. Can you imagine any other country accepting such a thing?

What if all countries were forced to return land obtained by force....

 

[AGBF]

I am not a fan of Hamas, missy. If I have appeared to be one, I must have seriously misstated my position. I deplore the terrorist tactics of Hamas. I also think that Israel has the right to defend itself and I support the IDF.

In addition, I believe that Israel, like the United States, should abide by the Geneva Convention. (That means that I rebuke both President Bush and President Obama for allowing the United States to torture prisoners of war.) I also believe that all Arab and other signatories (and, indeed, non-signatories) should abide by the Geneva Convention. It means that I think ISIS is beyond reproach.

AGBF

 

[missy]

I don't believe there will ever be a true peace in the middle east while Israel is there. Its not about land. Its about Israel. They are hated by their neighbours. Peace agreements are fragile. I fear that a two state solution may be forced upon Israel. Can you imagine any other country accepting such a thing?

What if all countries were forced to return land obtained by force....

Good question Maisie.

I am not a fan of Hamas, missy. If I have appeared to be one, I must have seriously misstated my position. I deplore the terrorist tactics of Hamas. I also think that Israel has the right to defend itself and I support the IDF.

In addition, I believe that Israel, like the United States, should abide by the Geneva Convention. (That means that I rebuke both President Bush and President Obama for allowing the United States to torture prisoners of war.) I also believe that all Arab and other signatories (and, indeed, non-signatories) should abide by the Geneva Convention. It means that I think ISIS is beyond reproach.

AGBF

I know that Deb. I love you and I am a good judge of character and never thought you supported Hamas. It's just until they are renounced by their people there can never be peace. They 100% no doubt want the extermination of all Jews. How can you make peace with people who hate so much? How does one reason with crazy?

 

[AGBF]

What if all countries were forced to return land obtained by force....

I started to write a long response to this on the day you posted it, Maisie, but it disappeared from my computer screen the way that things sometimes do. I believe that I was also responding to something that missy had written, but I cannot recall what!

I had wanted to point out to you that firstly, most countries that lose wars are required to return any land that they have obtained by force. It is only the winners who usually retain land that they have acquired. Therefore it is not a revolutionary concept to speak of countries being forced to return land they obtained by force! You mean it seems odd for a winning party to give back land...but it isn't. But, secondly, sometimes a country gains land that it simply cannot rule. Why do you think the British Empire fell apart? Great Britain would be ruling the United States today if trading land for peace had not been more convenient for the British! History is full of these examples.

Deb/AGBF

 

[movie zombie]

I don't believe there will ever be a true peace in the middle east while Israel is there. Its not about land. Its about Israel. They are hated by their neighbours. Peace agreements are fragile. I fear that a two state solution may be forced upon Israel. Can you imagine any other country accepting such a thing?

What if all countries were forced to return land obtained by force....[/quote]

but that is exactly what we want Russia to do re Ukraine.........

and it is the continued use of force to take land that is the issue for me re Israel.
stop it right now!
that would go a long ways in proving Israel has an interest in peace in the region.

 

[AGBF]

I don't believe there will ever be a true peace in the middle east while Israel is there. Its not about land. Its about Israel. They are hated by their neighbours. Peace agreements are fragile. I fear that a two state solution may be forced upon Israel. Can you imagine any other country accepting such a thing?

What if all countries were forced to return land obtained by force....[/quote]

but that is exactly what we want Russia to do re Ukraine.........

and it is the continued use of force to take land that is the issue for me re Israel.
stop it right now!
that would go a long ways in proving Israel has an interest in peace in the region.

Well, to be technical, the Soviet Union, which included Russia, actually returned Ukraine already. Russia simply seems to have reconsidered whether it is willing to let Ukraine and, indeed, many other former Soviet republics have the independence it once granted them. Vladimir Putin is not an advocate of a "Little Russia" if I may borrow the analogy of a Little Germany and a Big Germany.

AGBF

 

[movie zombie]

deb, one has to go back in history to understand why Ukraine and Russia as well as Crimea are intertwined and not so easily separated:

http://theweek.com/articles/449691/ukraines-fraught-relationship-russia-brief-history

 

[AGBF]

deb, one has to go back in history to understand why Ukraine and Russia as well as Crimea are intertwined and not so easily separated:

http://theweek.com/articles/449691/ukraines-fraught-relationship-russia-brief-history

Thank you for the link, MZ. The article was very informative and certainly fleshed out the situation, but I do not believe it negated my argument about the history of the Soviet Union granting Ukraine independence only to see Russia try to take it back. On the contrary, I think it reiterated it.

Ukraine was the example you gave, however. The example I offered the British Empire and its need to give up territories acquired through colonial conquests that were not convenient for it to rule. As the British were giving up many of their colonies the French were giving up theirs. Thus just as Spanish and Portuguese colonialism has waned earlier in history, so did French and British colonialism wane at approximately the same time. By the time of the Versailles Treaty, France and Britain were willing to accept mandates-for example in the Middle east (about which you have written). However, their goal was really to promote self-rule by nations. They did not want to encourage endless long-term colonialism. The end of World War I was supposed to usher in a new era of self-rule and self-determination.

Deb

 

[movie zombie]

well, to further hijack this thread, I do not believe colonization by the West meant to lead to nationalization. there was too much resistance by the French and the Brits as well. Northern Africa comes to mind and the fight by the Algerians for independence. Also, during WWii Churchill turned to the US for assistance in great part because he was using his own resources to maintain colonies.

I brought up Ukraine as an example of expansionist territory grabbing as we condemn their use of force to do so but we condone that done in Israel.

however, we've gone very far afield from the OP's post......i'm betting if we ever got together IRL we'd never quit talking re history, politics, etc....eventually we might get to jewelry!

 

[AGBF]

It's Easter morning and I should resume preparations here, but I was sneaking a little computer time between tasks. (Happy Easter to all who celebrate and Happy Passover to those who are now celebrating Passover.)

I just wanted to tell you, MZ, that I agree we would probably talk politics with history mixed in if we got together. We do not always agree on policy issues, but we certainly like to hash out history referring to the actual facts as represented by the most reliable sources we can find! It would be great fun for the two of us although perhaps boring for many other people who post on Pricescope (Around The World posters excepted, of course!).

Hugs,
Deb

 

[movie zombie]

today, April 8, Guns and Butter aired on KPFA.org this program: https://kpfa.org/episode/guns-and-butter-april-8-2015/

deb, I think you will find it interesting in light of this thread and past discussions re WWI and forces leading to what is now happening in the Middle East.....also includes references to the Treaty of Versailles, promises made with no intent of keeping them, etc.

definitely worth a listen....but I have no idea of how long it will be available but these things are usually at kpfa's website for 2 weeks.

oh, and hit the button "listen" to listen........