what is a decent overhead these days?

[icekid]

Date: 2/5/2010 1:06:34 PM
Author: Harriet
Crasru,


I am sorry that you feel you overpaid for your alexandrite. I too hate overpaying. Now, if I understand what you have said correctly, you are looking for fine fine gems. As that could mean a substantial outlay, I would do a lot of homework first. Unfortunately, one buying guide is insufficient. Prices may have changed by the time the book was published, for instance. Where are you located? Try to see as many stones as possible and talk to different vendors to get a sense of the market for a particular stone. Go to museums and gem shows. Alternatively, as a wise man taught me, if you don''t know what you''re buying, know who you''re buying from. It will take time and luck to find a dealer whom you trust. Also, you may have to pay for his expertise. But, it is worth it. Incidentally, the Guide is a trade only publication that gives a range of prices for different categories of different stones. And, no, it is not easy to obtain. I have never been able to look at one. Good luck!

Well said, K! There is no big secret here. The important things are research, knowing what you want, and knowing your seller.

 

[Arkteia]

Harriet, LD, Chrona, and other experts,

Thank you for participating and sharing your expertise with me.

I do not believe I made a "horrible" mistake with the first stone. Fot two reasons:

a) Perhaps, these are the going prices for the stones
b) at least, it is a well-cut, very bright and UNHEATED (I re-tested it with the GIA) stone

With the ALEX, the biggest mistake was made from the beginning, because I showed too much interest in the stone.
I did do some homework, went to different vendors, compared prices and knew the range. The biggest mistake was me calling the jeweler several times, expressing interest.

Another thing - it is probably a good stone because it is 100% color shift and the color does vary from red to raspberry-red to pavao to green. But just because it has a window and is very clean it reflects light from the surface which doesn't help at all. LD told me that it is very hard to find a good cut with stones like alexes. I just think I could have made him do it.

From now on, I am going to discuss everything from the beginning. And have everything in writing. And, probably, not show excessive interest in a specific stone. And it seems more sense to buy from cutters who buy their own rough - less chance of fakes. They also seem to be decent in pricing - at least everything is on their websites.
And not buy from other countries where return could be difficult. I think there are some which have very favorable trade agreements with the USA (Australia?) - perhaps they are safer - I'd like to know your opinion about it. I also suspect Germany is safe - just because everything is so organized there.

And possibly, make photographs and post it here. I have lousy photography skills but bad stones are bad stones and you can give me definite advices on what not to buy.

And not fall for too attractive bargains - if a good stone does not move there should be a reason for it. I doubt someone could sell a stone for 1/10 of a price because of "bad vibes". But usually these bargains are not my biggest issue.
What else?

 

[LD]

Date: 2/5/2010 3:31:05 PM
Author: crasru
Harriet, LD, Chrona, and other ''experts'',

Thank you for participating and sharing your expertise with me.

I do not believe I made a ''horrible'' mistake with the first stone. Fot two reasons:

a) Perhaps, these are the going prices for the stones
b) at least, it is a well-cut, very bright and UNHEATED (I re-tested it with the GIA) stone

With the ALEX, the biggest mistake was made from the beginning, because I showed too much interest in the stone.
I did do some homework, went to different vendors, compared prices and knew the range. The biggest mistake was me calling the jeweler several times, expressing interest.

Another thing - it is probably a very good stone because it is 100% color shift and the color does vary from red to raspberry-red to pavao to green. But just because it has a window and is very clean it reflects light from the surface which doesn''t help at all. LD told me that it is very hard to find a good cut with stones like alexes. I just think I could have made him do it.

From now on, I am going to discuss everything from the beginning. And have everything in writing. And, probably, not show excessive interest in a specific stone. And it seems more sense to buy from cutters who buy their own rough - less chance of fakes. They also seem to be decent in pricing - at least everything is on their websites.
And not buy from other countries where return could be difficult. I think there are some which have very favorable trade agreements with the USA - perhaps they are safer - I''d like to know your opinion about it. I also suspect Germany is safe - just because everything is so organized there.
And possibly, make photographs and post it here. I have lousy photography skills but bad stones are bad stones and you can give me definite advices on what not to buy.
And not fall for too attractive bargains - if a good stone does not move there should be a reason for it. I doubt someone could sell a stone for 1/10 of a price because of ''bad vibes''.
What else?

With "rarer" stones this is impossible because your local supplier WILL NOT have a range that will truly depict what you can buy. I know you''ve decided to cast your net wider now in terms of supplier, which is great news, but remember, the rarer the stone, the longer it will typically take you to buy and IF you limit your buying to the US you are narrowing your market considerably.

I buy from all over the world and my very best purchases have been from outside the US. Many vendors cannot or will not send additional photos so you sometimes have to take a risk. Just make sure they have a good return policy and all you''ll lose is the shipping.

By the way, in 2 years time come back and tell me that you could have got a better cut Alex with all your other parameters! I bet you won''t find one in an affordable range!

 

[chrono]

I find that local places cannot get very fine quality, especially the less common variety. Even a garnet other than in red seems to be stretching it for vendors local to me. In addition, many precision cutters are not able to get truly rare stones (top colour) in very large sizes. To lessen the risk, especially with a new contact, I make sure to ask very specific questions together with specific pictures. I’m not too worried about return shipping to Asia as much as to Africa!

 

[Harriet]

Crasru,
You''re most welcome. Here''s another thing to think about: How important is cut to you? Chrono''s observation about the rough available to custom cutters is correct. I''ve found that mine owners tend to cut their own rough, in order to preserve margin. In addition, certain countries (e.g. Sri Lanka) does not allow the export of rough. Lastly, some gems are simply mined out. For what it''s worth, all but 2 pieces I own are ''native cut.''

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All.
Nobody wants to over pay for gems. I would like to add a step when buying fine gems. I think you should be able to send it to a lab (I know you did on one gem, before or after purchase?) and then to an appraiser. I have wondered whether Harriet & Chrono and LD and TL do send their gemstones to a lab. Harriets collection is amazing, I think investment grade,(just my opinion) and would like to know if you verify what the trusted dealer says.

I remember a nice fellow who bought a ruby as an engagement ring. He paid 10,000 a carat. I believe the stone was a little over a carat. After making the ring he went to an appraiser who told him the ring was worth $5,000.00. I don''t believe he came back to the forum to say what the outcome was. My figures are approximations. I have always felt bad for him.

You need experts to check on other so-called experts. The jewelry business is not the most honest in my opinion. I don''t mean to offend the hard working people who are honest, but they will take what the market will bear.

I have had an experience similar to yours with several jewelers. Each time I come back to them, they charge me more. When you talk about your items they seem to sense your ability to pay. I even like this new jeweler but its always more money.
Thanks

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/5/2010 5:07:11 PM
Author: smitcompton


Hi All.

Nobody wants to over pay for gems. I would like to add a step when buying fine gems. I think you should be able to send it to a lab (I know you did on one gem, before or after purchase?) and then to an appraiser. I have wondered whether Harriet & Chrono and LD and TL do send their gemstones to a lab. Harriets collection is amazing, I think investment grade,(just my opinion) and would like to know if you verify what the trusted dealer says.


I remember a nice fellow who bought a ruby as an engagement ring. He paid 10,000 a carat. I believe the stone was a little over a carat. After making the ring he went to an appraiser who told him the ring was worth $5,000.00. I don''t believe he came back to the forum to say what the outcome was. My figures are approximations. I have always felt bad for him.


You need experts to check on other so-called experts. The jewelry business is not the most honest in my opinion. I don''t mean to offend the hard working people who are honest, but they will take what the market will bear.


I have had an experience similar to yours with several jewelers. Each time I come back to them, they charge me more. When you talk about your items they seem to sense your ability to pay. I even like this new jeweler but its always more money.

Thanks

Sorry I use Firefox and do not know how to highlight with it. I just wanted to comment on, "every time I come back to them". That is what I, too, have noticed. The first time you buy, they need to show you that they are WORTHY of your time and money. So the first stone is usually good.

When you become a regular (and not too informed) customer, they tend to charge you more. And they do sense your ability to pay. They usually know your job, you have bought something from them. I would not call jewelry business dishonest, IT IS JUST A BIG BAZAAR, and jewelers are MERCHANTS, and you need to know how to negotiate. I always hated bazaars, from early childhood, and tried to avoid them and go to places where prices were "regular" (stores) even if the quality was not so good so I did not develop bargaining skills.

But since I am a poor "barganer" (negotiator won''t fit - I am very flexible in other areas) I am now trying to do otherwise and tell them directly what I don''t like and what has to be changed if they want to keep me as a client. Because one has already lost me for pure avarice and the other one has not but I need to be sure that next time he sources out better stones.

Have you noticed how many jewelry stores are going out of business? How many designers are having problems? It is crisis. There are beautiful homes in our development, and many CEO''s living in them have lost jobs. And they can not sell these houses. Some lawyers I know have lost jobs (unthinkable for this country!). So I started thinking that if someone abuses my wallet and makes $ 5,000.00 - 10,000.00 more than he expects to make today, he is cutting the branch at which he is sitting because I am not going to come back, shopping for more, or refer people I know to him (which is worse because I know many people who could make good customers). Unless he, too, is afraid of going out of business and is trying to make as much as he can today.

Sending gems to the lab is not a problem. I tend to recheck everything. Too bad AGTA''s lab has closed.

I wish I could take my husband with me. He bought his last car below MFR price, and when he were shopping for mattresses...well, he negotiated such a deal that the store owner, who came from a country which traditionally had very strong negotiating skills, told my husband he''d hire him on the spot! Unfortunately, when my husband sees a higher price tag, he sways my opinion in favor of stock market.

 

[LD]

Date: 2/5/2010 5:07:11 PM
Author: smitcompton

Hi All.
Nobody wants to over pay for gems. I would like to add a step when buying fine gems. I think you should be able to send it to a lab (I know you did on one gem, before or after purchase?) and then to an appraiser. I have wondered whether Harriet & Chrono and LD and TL do send their gemstones to a lab. Harriets collection is amazing, I think investment grade,(just my opinion) and would like to know if you verify what the trusted dealer says.

I remember a nice fellow who bought a ruby as an engagement ring. He paid 10,000 a carat. I believe the stone was a little over a carat. After making the ring he went to an appraiser who told him the ring was worth $5,000.00. I don't believe he came back to the forum to say what the outcome was. My figures are approximations. I have always felt bad for him.

You need experts to check on other so-called experts. The jewelry business is not the most honest in my opinion. I don't mean to offend the hard working people who are honest, but they will take what the market will bear.

I have had an experience similar to yours with several jewelers. Each time I come back to them, they charge me more. When you talk about your items they seem to sense your ability to pay. I even like this new jeweler but its always more money.
Thanks

Yes, for what I consider to be important gemstone purchases of course I do. Although I have the ability to test gemstones, I would never rely on my own ability to be able to diagnose with 100% certainty. It's impossible to get every gemstone certified as it's simply too costly. There are some labs that can test (for example) for BE diffusion and others that can't so depending on the stone depends on the lab I use. I also have nearly all of my gemstones and jewellery appraised. However, if a gemstone comes from a trusted dealer and is not particularly expensive, I don't as it's simply not cost effective.

 

[T L]

Date: 2/5/2010 5:07:11 PM
Author: smitcompton

Hi All.
Nobody wants to over pay for gems. I would like to add a step when buying fine gems. I think you should be able to send it to a lab (I know you did on one gem, before or after purchase?) and then to an appraiser. I have wondered whether Harriet & Chrono and LD and TL do send their gemstones to a lab. Harriets collection is amazing, I think investment grade,(just my opinion) and would like to know if you verify what the trusted dealer says.

I remember a nice fellow who bought a ruby as an engagement ring. He paid 10,000 a carat. I believe the stone was a little over a carat. After making the ring he went to an appraiser who told him the ring was worth $5,000.00. I don''t believe he came back to the forum to say what the outcome was. My figures are approximations. I have always felt bad for him.

You need experts to check on other so-called experts. The jewelry business is not the most honest in my opinion. I don''t mean to offend the hard working people who are honest, but they will take what the market will bear.

I have had an experience similar to yours with several jewelers. Each time I come back to them, they charge me more. When you talk about your items they seem to sense your ability to pay. I even like this new jeweler but its always more money.
Thanks

Yes, I will if the stone is
1) rare and important and I don''t know the seller that well.
2) if it''s a commonly treated or synthesized stone
3) to denote an untreated stone if I''m paying a premium for that, or even origin.

 

[Harriet]

Smitcompton,

Thank you for your kind words. I have never had a stone tested. Of my collection, my most prized ones are the red spinel (from Pala), the spessartite and tsavorites (from someone close to the source and whom I''d trust with my life), and the demantoid (from a jeweller with an impeccable eye for gems). I would have had the demantoid tested for origin and heat treatment, but the jeweller had already done so.

 

[Harriet]

Crasru,

Again, I''m sorry for your bad experience. I''m not sure that you have to hide your interest, though. My demantoid was bought by the jeweller to set as stock. But, because he was so taken (amused?) by my passion for gems, he offered it to me. Also, if you show signs of being a repeat and high-ticket customer, it is not in the vendor''s interest to cut you a bad deal at any point. My main dealer won''t even sell some of his gems to me. Lastly, it doesn''t hurt to ask if the price is negotiable. I don''t bargain anymore because I know that the few people I buy from give me the lowest prices that they can afford to give. I hope you have better luck going forward!

 

[Harriet]

One more thing: If you know what you''re talking about, I''ll wager that you won''t be taken advantage of.

 

[chrono]

Date: 2/5/2010 5:07:11 PM
Author: smitcompton

Hi All.
Nobody wants to over pay for gems. I would like to add a step when buying fine gems. I think you should be able to send it to a lab (I know you did on one gem, before or after purchase?) and then to an appraiser. I have wondered whether Harriet & Chrono and LD and TL do send their gemstones to a lab. Harriets collection is amazing, I think investment grade,(just my opinion) and would like to know if you verify what the trusted dealer says.

I remember a nice fellow who bought a ruby as an engagement ring. He paid 10,000 a carat. I believe the stone was a little over a carat. After making the ring he went to an appraiser who told him the ring was worth $5,000.00. I don't believe he came back to the forum to say what the outcome was. My figures are approximations. I have always felt bad for him.

You need experts to check on other so-called experts. The jewelry business is not the most honest in my opinion. I don't mean to offend the hard working people who are honest, but they will take what the market will bear.

I have had an experience similar to yours with several jewelers. Each time I come back to them, they charge me more. When you talk about your items they seem to sense your ability to pay. I even like this new jeweler but its always more money.
Thanks

Yes, I have. Not all but certain ones only. Like TL, there are a few criteria for deciding if the stone should be sent to a lab or not. I always have the stones sent to the lab as the final condition of purchase.
1. Rare and high value item.
2. Stone known to be commonly treated or have convincing fakes/substitutes.

It is strange but my experience that the jeweller/vendor gives me better selection and pricing as a repeat customer.

 

[Arkteia]

"One more thing: If you know what you're talking about, I'll wager that you won't be taken advantage of."

So true! I should order a plaque with your words etched on it. I'd say it applies to every life situation, not only to jewelry.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 2/5/2010 10:52:39 PM
Author: crasru


''One more thing: If you know what you''re talking about, I''ll wager that you won''t be taken advantage of.''


So true! I should order a plaque with your words etched on it. I''d say it applies to every life situation, not only to jewelry.

Or: If you seem like you know what you''re talking about, I''ll wager that you won''t be taken advantage of.

 

[Arkteia]

Even better! Thank you, Harriet!

 

[Harriet]

Do I get a plaque too?

 

[PrecisionGem]

This is an interesting thread. It seems that the idea that a retailer paid a wholesale price for a stone, and then marked it up to a retail price is somehow cheating the customer. Yet this happens in everything else you buy, why not jewelry and stones? And then what is the wholesale price? Do you mean the price of the rough from the guy who mined it or found it? Or the price a retail store paid for it? When I was going to college, I worked part time in a shoe store. The store marked every shoe up 2x. The store sold name brand higher end shoes. A few times a year, the sales reps for various brands would come in, and allow the sales people to buy shoes at what I guess was factory cost. Now this was 30 years ago, but I could buy a shoe for $18 from the rep, that the store would normally pay $45 for, and would sell for $90. So what was the wholesale price? I would think most people would think $45.

The same type of thing happens with stones, except they often change hands more times. It''s very rare that any miner cuts a stone, much less cuts it at the mine. Most stones mined in Africa are cut in Asia. Large cutting houses make deals with mine owners to purchase entire mine runs, buying all the good material, and all the crap. They have beads made from the crap, cabs cut from the better material and facet the best grades. Then there are miners who bring the stones they find into places like Arusha, and deal with rough gem dealers. These dealers then will sell the rough to cutting houses, are rough dealers that travel to Africa. They may then end up at gem shows such as Tucson, or rough dealers in other parts of the world. The stones may end up getting cut in Asia, and then sold to a dealer who exports them to the US to another dealer. This dealer may then sell the to a retailer. So along the way there were many "wholesale" prices. It all depends on where you are along the food chain.

When I was in Arusha this summer, I saw cut tanzanite for one price in the city with the dealers, then for about 1.75x the price it could be purchased at the airport in shops in the terminal, and this price was about 50% less than what it see it being sold for on JTV. I would think that JTV is 20 to 50% less than what you would be paying retail at a B&M store.

As a side note: For individual cutters, it''s difficult to get ruby, blue sapphire and emerald. Not that these are cut at the mines, but they are more controlled since they are the big three and much easier to sell. Some countries producing these stones do not allow any rough to be exported, as they want to create work and revenue at home. Other stones, with some effort can be purchased in very fine quality, however top stones are not cheap even at the source. I have bargained with Africans coming out of a mud hut. If they have something good, they know it, and want what it''s worth. I think the reason you don''t see a lot of cutters here selling $30,000 stones is they don''t want or have the funds to buy the rough. And then the typical markets they sell to won''t pay the price either. I was offered a very large ruby in Arusha that would have cut a spectacular stone. The guy wanted $30,000 for it. I just couldn''t afford to buy it, and if I did, I''d still be sitting on it.

 

[Arkteia]

This is interesting perspective. But taken your approach, you close to the beginning of the chain, and with you, it is easier. I can see what you sell is on your website, decide if I have money to buy, snatch fast if I think it is very good, think twice if am marginally interested.

When I talk to a jeweler and discuss the upper limit of the price, he may increase it later.

I am sorry you could not buy that ruby.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/4/2010 3:47:41 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All,

I have always heard the markup on diamonds is 2x the wholesale price, which I regard as the point of sale to the retailer.

On colored gemstones I have been told that the mark=up is 4x the price paid by the retailer. Of course a fine stone will be sold for more.

It seems on this site many people are discussing fine gems. I think the average Person is just looking for a pretty gemstone in a color that they like. E-bay is a place where you can find a nice stone for not too much money. I have purchased several stones on ebay which are not first class stones but are acceptable as pretty gemstones. When I mentioned this (several yrs ago the experts said they couldn''t be good. I was unsure of myself, as your are, and so put them aside.

I finally had some stones set and asked the jeweler about the questionable stones. He told me I would be crazy to not set them. People would kill for the color of these. But they are included and there is an inclusion on the top of the table.
It looks beautiful in a ring.
I gave one of these as a gift. The woman had it appraised(in a ring) for over $1000.00 I won''t even say what I pd for these stones because i would get the same response. Couldn''t be good. They are not good but are nice.

Getting back to your question. I think Ed Bristle who comes on here and sells on ebay. always say, ''You make your money when you buy''. I think this is true.

Thanks

WOW! In my dreams I wish for profits like that. I would have retired after only a few years work and just bought gems for my own pleasure. Even if there were once margins like that, the Internet has forever reduced margins and increased volume. This is actually a good thing, as it allows me to compete and to sell gems and jewelry all over the world.

There is a saying in the south that goes something like this, "Pigs get fat, but Hogs get slaughtered." I think in today''s world any one working on nice gems who tried to get a 4x profit would get slaughtered in the market and end up getting very skinny indeed. As for the diamond market, maybe Tiffany''s and a few of the big names still get 2x, but most of us are working on tiny margins. It is one of the reasons that Tiffany does not use AGS or GIA papers on their diamonds, it would make it too easy for people to know how high their markups still are.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/5/2010 7:40:54 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Ok - a key mistake you made is to tell a retailer how much you were willing to pay for the stone. You should have asked him what he thought you might have to pay. If you give somebody a top budget, they will then NEARLY ALWAYS go up to that limit and beyond - even if the stone isn''t worth it. For them this is a great sale! It also shows (if the amount you have stated is too high) that you don''t actually know much about it which is a dangerous position for you to be in. Now, I must stress that a decent vendor wouldn''t do this. They would say something like ''OK, but for that money I can get you the best the world has to offer, how about if I look for something around the $x mark for you?''. So on that basis, I most certainly wouldn''t use that particular jeweller again.

When you''re next looking for a gemstone, do some online shopping. Use the vendors listed in this forum and compare their prices. This will give you a general ''feel'' for what is the expected amount. There will always be one that has a top of the range gemstone so you can see what a fine specimen will command. Even if they don''t have a stone in they can always source one for you and they''re much more likely to give you an indication of cost as well.

Also, if you get somebody to source in stones for you DON''T BUY UNLESS YOU LOVE IT. Most of our online vendors will source a stone for you and let you see it and accept refunds if the stone isn''t for you. The way you''re buying at the moment is much more risky for you (and limiting).

I was going to take umbrage with this comment as a condemnation of a lot of good people, but then you "saved" the post with your next comment about a good jeweler not taking advantage of a client. You go on to give excellent advice, and since I liked that I had to go back and reread the entire post without the flash of white hot irritation at your first comment

Did you know by the way, that a client is someone whom the provider protects? If we have a vendor client relationship, then it is my job to protect you from harm in our transactions. I should profit from them obviously, but for that profit I must provide reasonable service and product.

I agree with you that for me to ask you your budget is to do you a disservice, not because I will take advantage of that information, but because it limits what I might normally show you. You may well want a $10,000 gem but think you only want to spend $5,000. If I ask you your budget, I would likely never show you your perfect $10,000 gem and you could well leave unsatisfied, possibly even thinking I could not get you what you wanted. (Which of course, if you want a $10,000 gem for $5,000, is true.) It may be that when you see the gem you want, you will decide that you really want it enough to spend the higher price, or you may decide to pass on a stone that makes you less than happy until you can afford the one you want.

Also, if I show you that gem that you want but can not afford, and if you still want to buy a gem now, then we know the parameters of what you want, and can begin a search for something similar that will still satisfy. Do we go heat treated instead of natural color, do we use a color a shade darker/lighter that is so much less expensive while still being extraordinary in appearance, etc?

Knowing what to look for after you have seen what you want, not what you thought you wanted, has enabled me to help many of my clients find gems they might never have found had I merely asked them for a budget and a rough idea of what they wanted. Especially since so few people really know what they want until they see it.

I once had a beautiful gem custom cut by Richard Homer, a very nice Smokey Quartz because that is what my client told me she wanted as a gift for her mother. When she came in with her sister to see the gem and pick it up, the were both dazzled by the gem and very happy. Since they loved his cutting so much I offered to share some others of his work that I had in the office.

They fell in love with another gem that was about four times their original budget, and a completely different color than what they "wanted". I allowed them to "trade" in their custom cut gem towards the new gem. They left happy, the final recipient was ecstatic when the gift was received, and I sold the original gem within a couple of months, as it truly was spectacular. ( I know, spectacular and Smokey Quartz are rarely used in the same sentence, but hey, it was a Richard Homer!)

The point is, if I had only shown them what they wanted and said they could afford, they would never have seen what they truly wanted. What they truly wanted was an item they did not even know existed until they saw it. I mean, how many people come into a jewelry store looking for a concave faceted Paprika Spessartite? Not very darn many, I will guarantee you that!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/5/2010 2:12:58 PM
Author: Chrono
To add to Harriet’s advice, even knowing the guide isn’t helpful if one is unable to categorize the stone in hand to the rating in the Guide. How does a layperson know if it falls into the average, fine, very fine quality range? How does a layperson know if the stone is yG5/3, syG5/4, G4/4 and all the little nuances in between in order to use the Guide correctly?

Chrono, I was going to comment on your last excellent post about not keeping any gem you are not happy with, but I must say, this post is

Simply BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed! Sadly, most jewelers would not be able to look at your proper use of color nomenclature above and translate the terms. Both the appearance and the price of a yellowish-Green, medium tone, very slightly grayish intensity stone versus a slightly yellowish-Green, medium tone, moderately strong intensity stone would be dramatically different. Visually the difference between the syG5/4 and the G4/4 might be much less with the tone being very slightly less but the color not having the very slightly yellowish overtone, but the pricing could still be dramatically disparate, depending on many factors, including the species of the gem, the size of the gem and the clarity of the gem. It will not matter much for minor differences in color if the gem is so included that pieces of it flake off sitting in the jewelry box.

THIS CAN NOT BE LEARNED IN A BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brilliant! Simply brilliant!

Wink

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/5/2010 3:43:51 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 2/5/2010 3:31:05 PM
Author: crasru
Harriet, LD, Chrona, and other ''experts'',

Thank you for participating and sharing your expertise with me.

I do not believe I made a ''horrible'' mistake with the first stone. Fot two reasons:

a) Perhaps, these are the going prices for the stones
b) at least, it is a well-cut, very bright and UNHEATED (I re-tested it with the GIA) stone

With the ALEX, the biggest mistake was made from the beginning, because I showed too much interest in the stone.
I did do some homework, went to different vendors, compared prices and knew the range. The biggest mistake was me calling the jeweler several times, expressing interest.

Another thing - it is probably a very good stone because it is 100% color shift and the color does vary from red to raspberry-red to pavao to green. But just because it has a window and is very clean it reflects light from the surface which doesn''t help at all. LD told me that it is very hard to find a good cut with stones like alexes. I just think I could have made him do it.

From now on, I am going to discuss everything from the beginning. And have everything in writing. And, probably, not show excessive interest in a specific stone. And it seems more sense to buy from cutters who buy their own rough - less chance of fakes. They also seem to be decent in pricing - at least everything is on their websites.
And not buy from other countries where return could be difficult. I think there are some which have very favorable trade agreements with the USA - perhaps they are safer - I''d like to know your opinion about it. I also suspect Germany is safe - just because everything is so organized there.
And possibly, make photographs and post it here. I have lousy photography skills but bad stones are bad stones and you can give me definite advices on what not to buy.
And not fall for too attractive bargains - if a good stone does not move there should be a reason for it. I doubt someone could sell a stone for 1/10 of a price because of ''bad vibes''.
What else?

With ''rarer'' stones this is impossible because your local supplier WILL NOT have a range that will truly depict what you can buy. I know you''ve decided to cast your net wider now in terms of supplier, which is great news, but remember, the rarer the stone, the longer it will typically take you to buy and IF you limit your buying to the US you are narrowing your market considerably.

I buy from all over the world and my very best purchases have been from outside the US. Many vendors cannot or will not send additional photos so you sometimes have to take a risk. Just make sure they have a good return policy and all you''ll lose is the shipping.

By the way, in 2 years time come back and tell me that you could have got a better cut Alex with all your other parameters! I bet you won''t find one in an affordable range!

Well, obviously, Tanzania is difficult return-wise, or so I was told. But I see multicolor is in Thailand, and you had experience with it. Is it possible to ship stones back to them.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/5/2010 11:32:53 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
This is an interesting thread. It seems that the idea that a retailer paid a wholesale price for a stone, and then marked it up to a retail price is somehow cheating the customer. Yet this happens in everything else you buy, why not jewelry and stones? And then what is the wholesale price? Do you mean the price of the rough from the guy who mined it or found it? Or the price a retail store paid for it? When I was going to college, I worked part time in a shoe store. The store marked every shoe up 2x. The store sold name brand higher end shoes. A few times a year, the sales reps for various brands would come in, and allow the sales people to buy shoes at what I guess was factory cost. Now this was 30 years ago, but I could buy a shoe for $18 from the rep, that the store would normally pay $45 for, and would sell for $90. So what was the wholesale price? I would think most people would think $45.

The same type of thing happens with stones, except they often change hands more times. It''s very rare that any miner cuts a stone, much less cuts it at the mine. Most stones mined in Africa are cut in Asia. Large cutting houses make deals with mine owners to purchase entire mine runs, buying all the good material, and all the crap. They have beads made from the crap, cabs cut from the better material and facet the best grades. Then there are miners who bring the stones they find into places like Arusha, and deal with rough gem dealers. These dealers then will sell the rough to cutting houses, are rough dealers that travel to Africa. They may then end up at gem shows such as Tucson, or rough dealers in other parts of the world. The stones may end up getting cut in Asia, and then sold to a dealer who exports them to the US to another dealer. This dealer may then sell the to a retailer. So along the way there were many ''wholesale'' prices. It all depends on where you are along the food chain.

When I was in Arusha this summer, I saw cut tanzanite for one price in the city with the dealers, then for about 1.75x the price it could be purchased at the airport in shops in the terminal, and this price was about 50% less than what it see it being sold for on JTV. I would think that JTV is 20 to 50% less than what you would be paying retail at a B&M store.

As a side note: For individual cutters, it''s difficult to get ruby, blue sapphire and emerald. Not that these are cut at the mines, but they are more controlled since they are the big three and much easier to sell. Some countries producing these stones do not allow any rough to be exported, as they want to create work and revenue at home. Other stones, with some effort can be purchased in very fine quality, however top stones are not cheap even at the source. I have bargained with Africans coming out of a mud hut. If they have something good, they know it, and want what it''s worth. I think the reason you don''t see a lot of cutters here selling $30,000 stones is they don''t want or have the funds to buy the rough. And then the typical markets they sell to won''t pay the price either. I was offered a very large ruby in Arusha that would have cut a spectacular stone. The guy wanted $30,000 for it. I just couldn''t afford to buy it, and if I did, I''d still be sitting on it.

I was thinking about your posting today. I am not sure you are right in your statement about the ruby. Of course, the guy may not have accepted a credit card or a check and very few people carry $ 30,000.00 in their pocket. So you may cut let''s say, a 100 or a 1000 cheaper stones instead and make the same profit as for one ruby. But it takes less time to cut a large ruby! So it would have been very profitable considering your time. I suspect you spent a lot of time cutting me that small ruby out of difficult material. Maybe the same amount that you might have spent cutting this spectacular ruby. And not all of stones you cut move immediately as well.

And I am not sure you''d still be sitting on it. The reason I tend to buy pricier stones is because I do not consider myself a collerctor. Rather a "wearer". So if I paid a lot for my alex but I am wearing it daily it is worth the price paid. You just have to divide the price by 365, then 365 x 2. You get an idea. I bought a diamond which is pretty good, an ideal cut, etc. but I don''t like it and almost never wear it. It was cheaper than the alex but it doesn''t "work" for its price because it is sitting in my box or wherever I keep it. So if you bought the stone, brought it here, spent some time cutting and offered a decent markup, it is very likely that I could buy it from you, went through my jewelry "box", made careful inverntory and donated some other stones, including my other ruby and my diamond ring. That would have partially covered the price. I see Wunza rubies moving on other, pricier, websites.

Of course I don''t know what it costs taking it out of the country.

Some other collectors may be thinking along the same lines.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/6/2010 10:20:31 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 2/5/2010 7:40:54 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Ok - a key mistake you made is to tell a retailer how much you were willing to pay for the stone. You should have asked him what he thought you might have to pay. If you give somebody a top budget, they will then NEARLY ALWAYS go up to that limit and beyond - even if the stone isn''t worth it. For them this is a great sale! It also shows (if the amount you have stated is too high) that you don''t actually know much about it which is a dangerous position for you to be in. Now, I must stress that a decent vendor wouldn''t do this. They would say something like ''OK, but for that money I can get you the best the world has to offer, how about if I look for something around the $x mark for you?''. So on that basis, I most certainly wouldn''t use that particular jeweller again.

When you''re next looking for a gemstone, do some online shopping. Use the vendors listed in this forum and compare their prices. This will give you a general ''feel'' for what is the expected amount. There will always be one that has a top of the range gemstone so you can see what a fine specimen will command. Even if they don''t have a stone in they can always source one for you and they''re much more likely to give you an indication of cost as well.

Also, if you get somebody to source in stones for you DON''T BUY UNLESS YOU LOVE IT. Most of our online vendors will source a stone for you and let you see it and accept refunds if the stone isn''t for you. The way you''re buying at the moment is much more risky for you (and limiting).

I was going to take umbrage with this comment as a condemnation of a lot of good people, but then you ''saved'' the post with your next comment about a good jeweler not taking advantage of a client. You go on to give excellent advice, and since I liked that I had to go back and reread the entire post without the flash of white hot irritation at your first comment

Did you know by the way, that a client is someone whom the provider protects? If we have a vendor client relationship, then it is my job to protect you from harm in our transactions. I should profit from them obviously, but for that profit I must provide reasonable service and product.

I agree with you that for me to ask you your budget is to do you a disservice, not because I will take advantage of that information, but because it limits what I might normally show you. You may well want a $10,000 gem but think you only want to spend $5,000. If I ask you your budget, I would likely never show you your perfect $10,000 gem and you could well leave unsatisfied, possibly even thinking I could not get you what you wanted. (Which of course, if you want a $10,000 gem for $5,000, is true.) It may be that when you see the gem you want, you will decide that you really want it enough to spend the higher price, or you may decide to pass on a stone that makes you less than happy until you can afford the one you want.

Also, if I show you that gem that you want but can not afford, and if you still want to buy a gem now, then we know the parameters of what you want, and can begin a search for something similar that will still satisfy. Do we go heat treated instead of natural color, do we use a color a shade darker/lighter that is so much less expensive while still being extraordinary in appearance, etc?

Knowing what to look for after you have seen what you want, not what you thought you wanted, has enabled me to help many of my clients find gems they might never have found had I merely asked them for a budget and a rough idea of what they wanted. Especially since so few people really know what they want until they see it.

I once had a beautiful gem custom cut by Richard Homer, a very nice Smokey Quartz because that is what my client told me she wanted as a gift for her mother. When she came in with her sister to see the gem and pick it up, the were both dazzled by the gem and very happy. Since they loved his cutting so much I offered to share some others of his work that I had in the office.

They fell in love with another gem that was about four times their original budget, and a completely different color than what they ''wanted''. I allowed them to ''trade'' in their custom cut gem towards the new gem. They left happy, the final recipient was ecstatic when the gift was received, and I sold the original gem within a couple of months, as it truly was spectacular. ( I know, spectacular and Smokey Quartz are rarely used in the same sentence, but hey, it was a Richard Homer!)

The point is, if I had only shown them what they wanted and said they could afford, they would never have seen what they truly wanted. What they truly wanted was an item they did not even know existed until they saw it. I mean, how many people come into a jewelry store looking for a concave faceted Paprika Spessartite? Not very darn many, I will guarantee you that!

Wink

OK but if no one has recommended this particular customer to you and you do not know her at all, and she is looking for a Paraiba, how do you know if she is thinking of an $ 500.00 or an $ 100 K? You have to ask for the expected budget. And even clothes are deceptive, because when I am abroad, I wear most comfy clothes including very old, ugly walking shoes.