What teachers really want to tell parents

[chemgirl]

Ugh, personal teaching story ahead!

I was teaching a friend's sister highschool math during the summer because she was struggling in her summer school class (second time taking the subject). She is a smart kid, she just doesn't care to try. Like seriously doesn't care to try. She didn't do any homework other than her graded assignments. There were loads of suggested problems, but if they weren't graded, she didn't do them. I did as many of them with her as I could during our tutoring sessions, but then she'd have questions like "what's a logarithm?" and I'd have a hard time not doing the face palm thing (they are part of the required learning for the previous grade). I graded all of her marked assignments before they were handed in and they were horrible. I would then show her which ones were wrong and have her try them again (and point her towards pertinent examples in the textbook). If she still had them wrong, then we'd do them together.

I was sure she was going to fail the course again. She hadn't don't three quarters of the exam review the night before the exam. I left there feeling pretty miserable.

Fast forward to last week...she passed! Sure it was a D+, but she passed! Her mom is super mad at the teacher though. How could her lovely, bright, intelligent daughter go from an A to a D+? Maybe its because her tutor helped with the graded assignments and the final exam is a true reflection of her daughter's abilities? NOPE, its the teacher. The teacher is completely to blame . The mom reported the teacher to the school because of the drastic drop and now he is being investigated by the school.

What happened to talking to the teacher and asking to see her exam?

I feel bad for the poor guy.

 

[zoebartlett]

What teachers want to tell legislators, ideologues, clueless politically motivated "magic bullet of the week school reformers" and white-flight middle and upper-middle class parents. Particularly relevant given the latest US poverty stats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/public-educations-biggest-problem-gets-worse/2011/09/13/gIQAWGz2RK_blog.html

Thanks, Ksinger. That's a good article.

For me, this sums it up:

"Making teachers entirely responsible for a student’s academic progress — regardless of whether the child eats enough or sleeps enough or gets enough medical attention — is counterproductive. Pretending that these issues can be “factored out” in some kind of mathematical formula that can assess how much “value” a teacher has added to a student’s progress is near nutty."

We all know that test scores are just one piece of the puzzle, but it's ridiculous to tie a teacher's performance "grade" to how well his/her students do on these types of tests.

 

[zoebartlett]

MC -- you have two formal conferences per year with your sons' teachers? We only have one, and that's around the first quarter, right after the first report card goes home. Of course, we can often ask for another conference with particular parents if need arises during the year. I think it makes sense to have three -- one in Nov., one in March, and one before school gets out in June.

 

[MissStepcut]

Why do there have to be conferences for teachers to communicate with parents? My 11 year old brother had one teacher who was very quick to email my parents to check in, update, answer questions, send out reminders... That worked great for all involved. Obviously this was in addition to traditional conferences.

In our district, I think the school closes after a certain time and so the time the teachers have after school is for curriculum planning.

The conferences we have are just a discussion of the report cards and how our kids are doing in each area and if there are concerns. I think part of the reason they have them is b/c some parents are working and don't have other time to talk to teachers. In my state, it's illegal for an employer to not give an employee time off for conferences so a parent may be dependent on conference.

PLUS, it's nice to have guaranteed one-on-one time w/the teacher. You get that block of time uninterupted and an email just isn't quite the same when you can get 20 minutes with a teacher and even talk about non-kid related stuff. Gives you an idea of a teacher's philosophy on life. Hearing my son's 2nd grade teacher talk about her organic garden gives me insight into as a person who is with my child ALL DAY LONG!

ETA - and yes, of course, emailing makes things easy, but I prefer to talk to the teacher in person rather than email, if possible. You know, the whole "tone" of the email type thing.

I wasn't suggesting that email replace conferences, just that there could be (and obviously sometimes is) more holistic communication.

 

[zoebartlett]

Chemgirl -- wow, I feel bad for that teacher, too. I don't understand why parents are often so quick to go to the school's administrators before or instead of talking to the teacher first.

 

[ksinger]

Ugh, personal teaching story ahead!

I was teaching a friend's sister highschool math during the summer because she was struggling in her summer school class (second time taking the subject). She is a smart kid, she just doesn't care to try. Like seriously doesn't care to try. She didn't do any homework other than her graded assignments. There were loads of suggested problems, but if they weren't graded, she didn't do them. I did as many of them with her as I could during our tutoring sessions, but then she'd have questions like "what's a logarithm?" and I'd have a hard time not doing the face palm thing (they are part of the required learning for the previous grade). I graded all of her marked assignments before they were handed in and they were horrible. I would then show her which ones were wrong and have her try them again (and point her towards pertinent examples in the textbook). If she still had them wrong, then we'd do them together.

I was sure she was going to fail the course again. She hadn't don't three quarters of the exam review the night before the exam. I left there feeling pretty miserable.

Fast forward to last week...she passed! Sure it was a D+, but she passed! Her mom is super mad at the teacher though. How could her lovely, bright, intelligent daughter go from an A to a D+? Maybe its because her tutor helped with the graded assignments and the final exam is a true reflection of her daughter's abilities? NOPE, its the teacher. The teacher is completely to blame . The mom reported the teacher to the school because of the drastic drop and now he is being investigated by the school.

What happened to talking to the teacher and asking to see her exam?

I feel bad for the poor guy.

And people wonder why teachers act defensive now and then. They are NOT the ones with the power in this equation, and right now their backs are particularly hard against the wall. Hopefully, the teacher documented out the wazoo, can easily explain the grade, AND the principal is worth his/her salt and will see that and it will come to naught.

 

[Arkteia]

My feeling, and it is very sad, is that if the teachers were paid decently, like they should be paid, at least half of what the doctors or lawyers or other high-paid professionals get, they would be treated with more respect, and consideration for the time they spent to get their degrees. Unfortunately, some people's respect is on par with the salary. And since schools are in the public sector, we can not get normal reimbursement for these people's work. And everyone thinks it is normal. Until things get changed, nothing will be changed at schools, and it will reflect heavily on the education of our kids. Sorry for being so blunt about these issues, but my feeling is, the teachers are overworked, underpaid and emotionally drawn. I do not blame the ones who leave schools for better-paying jobs. Same for colleges, by the way. Many talented college teachers move to work for private sector, I saw it happening in my son's University. Maybe it is off-topic, but this is believe where we should start, at the bottom. No one can survive on enthusiasm alone.

 

[MissStepcut]

My feeling, and it is very sad, is that if the teachers were paid decently, like they should be paid, at least half of what the doctors or lawyers or other high-paid professionals get, they would be treated with more respect, and consideration for the time they spent to get their degrees. Unfortunately, some people's respect is on par with the salary. And since schools are in the public sector, we can not get normal reimbursement for these people's work. And everyone thinks it is normal. Until things get changed, nothing will be changed at schools, and it will reflect heavily on the education of our kids. Sorry for being so blunt about these issues, but my feeling is, the teachers are overworked, underpaid and emotionally drawn. I do not blame the ones who leave schools for better-paying jobs. Same for colleges, by the way. Many talented college teachers move to work for private sector, I saw it happening in my son's University. Maybe it is off-topic, but this is believe where we should start, at the bottom. No one can survive on enthusiasm alone.

Relative to lawyers, at least, the average teacher makes around half of what the "average" lawyer does, but because lawyer salaries are heavily bimodally distributed, the average teacher makes more than many lawyers:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/07/26/business/economy/economix-26nalp/economix-26nalp-custom1.jpg

Like I said earlier in the thread, with more people getting BAs and MAs, teachers are often making a competitive wage relative to their similarly educated peers.

 

[Arkteia]

I see what you mean... I am comparing lawyers living in my town with teachers who teach in my town's schools but can not afford to live here... I know that there are public defenders and lawyers like my business lawyer and they can not be even remotely compared in salaries. Same for doctors. But teachers in this country are underpaid, and now some schools are closing so there is less job security.

 

[MissStepcut]

I disagree that they're underpaid in the U.S., based on education level, hours and benefits. Not sure where you live though?

ETA: I guess I only think that's true in the first couple years. One of the biggest drawbacks to a career in teaching, IMO, is the lack of advancement, exit options and opportunity to make more money commensurate with experience relative to other professions.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Well, my point of view as a mom: in my son's 3rd grade year, the teacher told me that my son was being a bit goofy, along with two of his friends, around one of the girls. Well, it took MONTHS before she actually sat me down and said my son was being mean!

You know why she took so long? She said because parents get mad at HER and the school and deny their kid would be like that. It really pissed me off that she didn't say anything more straight forward to me so I could sit my son down and tell him to knock it off. My son is a well behaved child, but I also know that around his friends, he's different PLUS I also know the girl and know that she also has issues. The kids were just a bad mix - and that happens. Some kids are bullies and others just have behavioral problems around specific kids.

There are the "bad" kids in the school and we all know who they are and the school doesn't do anything about it. One of my friend's son came home w/a black eye and the kid who hit him has a MASSIVE reputation for bullying and well, regardless of what he does, the school hasn't come to any resolution and the parents put him on ritalin as their solution!

The only case of strong discipline was last year a child was expelled. This was an elementary kid.

So where does that expelled child go?

I have NOOOO idea where the expelled child went. Details were not disclosed to me. The child was in my son's kindergarten class and I recall my son complaining about him all the time, but we haven't seen him since as the district changed school boundries and he switched to another school. I can't imagine what a young kid could do to be kicked out. He must have brought a weapon to school because the really bad kids (who punch/beat up peers) are still around.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

MC -- you have two formal conferences per year with your sons' teachers? We only have one, and that's around the first quarter, right after the first report card goes home. Of course, we can often ask for another conference with particular parents if need arises during the year. I think it makes sense to have three -- one in Nov., one in March, and one before school gets out in June.

Yes, and it sounds like parents are lucky at my kids' school to have two. One in the fall and one in the spring. I've also been told by teachers that I can request a final year conference. I didn't do so last year because it didn't appear to be a need, but this year, there will be because of him being in the 5/6 class and he's doing the 6th grade work (except for math) and next year it's almost if he's going to be taking 6th again so it's recommended he stay in the split or he'll be extremely bored, but it'd be nice if his final year of elementary included a class of his peers rather than only 11 other 5th graders and then the rest being 6th.

I'm also REALLY confused by what is expected of him...hopefully curriculum night clears that up or I'll be emailing the teacher every day.

 

[Aoife]

I disagree that they're underpaid in the U.S., based on education level, hours and benefits. Not sure where you live though?

ETA: I guess I only think that's true in the first couple years. One of the biggest drawbacks to a career in teaching, IMO, is the lack of advancement, exit options and opportunity to make more money commensurate with experience relative to other professions.

I don't think this is a safe blanket statement to make, because there is a huge variation in salary ranges depending on the district and area of the U. S. We lived in two states that were, at that time, at the top of the ranges for teacher salary, and in those states teachers could qualify for higher salaries based on their continuing ed and qualifications. Both those states had very strong teacher unions, and the teachers were very well-compensated. (Not as much as they deserved, but that's another whole story.) In other states the situation is much, much more grim for teachers at every level. We currently live in a state where the public educational system is in dire straits, and the hardworking teachers here are constantly dealing with over-crowded classrooms and diminishing resources.

 

[ksinger]

Well, my point of view as a mom: in my son's 3rd grade year, the teacher told me that my son was being a bit goofy, along with two of his friends, around one of the girls. Well, it took MONTHS before she actually sat me down and said my son was being mean!

You know why she took so long? She said because parents get mad at HER and the school and deny their kid would be like that. It really pissed me off that she didn't say anything more straight forward to me so I could sit my son down and tell him to knock it off. My son is a well behaved child, but I also know that around his friends, he's different PLUS I also know the girl and know that she also has issues. The kids were just a bad mix - and that happens. Some kids are bullies and others just have behavioral problems around specific kids.

There are the "bad" kids in the school and we all know who they are and the school doesn't do anything about it. One of my friend's son came home w/a black eye and the kid who hit him has a MASSIVE reputation for bullying and well, regardless of what he does, the school hasn't come to any resolution and the parents put him on ritalin as their solution!

The only case of strong discipline was last year a child was expelled. This was an elementary kid.

So where does that expelled child go?

I have NOOOO idea where the expelled child went. Details were not disclosed to me. The child was in my son's kindergarten class and I recall my son complaining about him all the time, but we haven't seen him since as the district changed school boundries and he switched to another school. I can't imagine what a young kid could do to be kicked out. He must have brought a weapon to school because the really bad kids (who punch/beat up peers) are still around.

MC, it probably was pretty bad, since expelling is rare. In fact they have (in typical 1984 fashion) changed the name to "long-term suspension", as if that changes what it is.

As for the kids who beat other kids up, well, I can assure you that the teachers would LOVE to not have to deal with that. If they don't get them out of the classroom well, they frequently aren't calling the shots. I would wager a decent sum the pressure to not get rid of these kids is from someone NOT involved in the day-to-day dealing with this kid - either admin who doesn't want their numbers ruined, some school reformer who insists that the school itself is doing something wrong or Little Johnny would be an angel, or the beleaguered parents, who either won't or can't control their own spawn, and demand that the school - usually via lawyers - socialize them for them. I know a friend of my husband's had to make a snap decision (for which he took some heat) to put a 3rd grader on the ground rather decisively, since said child was out of control and throwing chairs as fast as he could at the OTHER kids. He has also told of a security tape he saw of a kindergartener left briefly alone in a principal's office, just completely trash the entire office in about 5 minutes in a fit of rage. Then there was the 1st grader who was actually stalking a friend of mine's daughter, telling her all the graphic sexual things he was going to do to her.

Aoife - my state is one of those states in dire straits. Not surprisingly, it is also a high-poverty state. I have seen the payscales for some of the districts around here. First they play with the numbers - meaning, they count as "income", the monies they pay toward your health insurance. No job I've EVER had did that. That was not income, that was a benefit, and while it certainly has value, it was not presented to me as "Oh, your salary is 50,000....BUT...5000 of that is premiums you never see. So, taking that into account when you look at the charts...
a 20+ year teaching veteran with a PhD here, will NOT SEE OVER 59000 and change. That is tip top of the scale. You can never make more than that (unless you're a coach of course, or admin). And remember, that number includes health premiums that you really never see as income.

So given the lack of return on investment plus the ridiculous increases in cost of post-grad degrees, what real incentive is there to go higher on education in such a situation? The pitiful salary you're making makes it virtually impossible (short of a monied spouse) that you can reasonably even repay the loans incurred!

It's nuts.

 

[chemgirl]

I disagree that they're underpaid in the U.S., based on education level, hours and benefits. Not sure where you live though?

ETA: I guess I only think that's true in the first couple years. One of the biggest drawbacks to a career in teaching, IMO, is the lack of advancement, exit options and opportunity to make more money commensurate with experience relative to other professions.

I think it really depends on the state and the school district. I was looking up average starting salary for teachers by state, and many are under $30k. That seems extremely low for somebody with a graduate degree (even accounting for the fact that they have summers off).

 

[zoebartlett]

MC -- you have two formal conferences per year with your sons' teachers? We only have one, and that's around the first quarter, right after the first report card goes home. Of course, we can often ask for another conference with particular parents if need arises during the year. I think it makes sense to have three -- one in Nov., one in March, and one before school gets out in June.

Yes, and it sounds like parents are lucky at my kids' school to have two. One in the fall and one in the spring. I've also been told by teachers that I can request a final year conference. I didn't do so last year because it didn't appear to be a need, but this year, there will be because of him being in the 5/6 class and he's doing the 6th grade work (except for math) and next year it's almost if he's going to be taking 6th again so it's recommended he stay in the split or he'll be extremely bored, but it'd be nice if his final year of elementary included a class of his peers rather than only 11 other 5th graders and then the rest being 6th.

I'm also REALLY confused by what is expected of him...hopefully curriculum night clears that up or I'll be emailing the teacher every day.

I hope you get it figured out soon, MC. I usually offer the chance for parents to have a mid year and end of year conference in addition to the one we're expected to do. I'm always surprised at how many parents don't sign up for the mid year or spring conference. I guess it's probably because if I haven't reported any issues, many parents don't see the need.

 

[zoebartlett]

I disagree that they're underpaid in the U.S., based on education level, hours and benefits. Not sure where you live though?

ETA: I guess I only think that's true in the first couple years. One of the biggest drawbacks to a career in teaching, IMO, is the lack of advancement, exit options and opportunity to make more money commensurate with experience relative to other professions.

I don't think this is a safe blanket statement to make, because there is a huge variation in salary ranges depending on the district and area of the U. S. We lived in two states that were, at that time, at the top of the ranges for teacher salary, and in those states teachers could qualify for higher salaries based on their continuing ed and qualifications. Both those states had very strong teacher unions, and the teachers were very well-compensated. (Not as much as they deserved, but that's another whole story.) In other states the situation is much, much more grim for teachers at every level. We currently live in a state where the public educational system is in dire straits, and the hardworking teachers here are constantly dealing with over-crowded classrooms and diminishing resources.

I agree with Aoife.

I've taught in one state in the south where the state sets the salary, and your salary is based on how many years of experience you have. The school district you work for then kicks in some sort of additional amount (it has a name but I can't remember what they call it.)

My home state in the northeast, the one I've taught in for the longest, doesn't set our salary. Individual districts determine what they'll pay teachers. We have steps, and our particular salary is based on how many years we've taught, plus how many credits we have. For instance, a teacher who has a masters degree plus 15 credits will make more than someone with her BA or even a masters, but she'll make less than someone with a masters plus 30 credits. In my district, that's the highest you can go.

 

[Arkteia]

I disagree that they're underpaid in the U.S., based on education level, hours and benefits. Not sure where you live though?

ETA: I guess I only think that's true in the first couple years. One of the biggest drawbacks to a career in teaching, IMO, is the lack of advancement, exit options and opportunity to make more money commensurate with experience relative to other professions.

I live in an affluent suburb of Seattle with at least two of its high schools ranking in the top 100 of the nation's. Where teachers went on strike two years ago asking to raise salaries. At which point, my town started protesting, pointing out that these teachers' salaries were already higher than in other schools of our state. But, said the teachers, our town is the most expensive one. Well, said "we", you do not really need to live here, you may commute... (As if gas costs nothing).

I am not in the teaching profession but I was sitting in a room with a special ed. teacher who had worked for 20 years. Her salary was twice as low as her engineer husband's.

 

[Haven]

Salaries in my state are set by the individual school districts. I absolutely believe that teachers are underpaid, ESPECIALLY in the K-12 schools, and ESPECIALLY those who teach younger students.

Elementary school teachers tend to earn the lowest salaries, followed by middle and junior high schools, and then high school teachers tend to earn the highest salaries around here.* It is my professional opinion that your child's Kindergarten and 1st grade teachers are the most important teachers of his entire school career, so it makes no sense whatsoever that these are the worst paid teachers in the field.

I sometimes teach graduate students who are pursuing an MEd in Reading and Literacy. All of my grad students are seasoned K-12 teachers, most of them are much older and have been teaching much longer than me, yet when I taught high school I *always* earned more money than the elementary school teachers. Some of these women had been teaching for close to (or over) 20 years, and they weren't even making close to 50K a year. And I live in a pretty affluent area.

*Some districts have one salary schedule for ALL of their teachers K-12, but that is not the norm around here.

 

[zoebartlett]

Salaries in my state are set by the individual school districts. I absolutely believe that teachers are underpaid, ESPECIALLY in the K-12 schools, and ESPECIALLY those who teach younger students.

Elementary school teachers tend to earn the lowest salaries, followed by middle and junior high schools, and then high school teachers tend to earn the highest salaries around here.* It is my professional opinion that your child's Kindergarten and 1st grade teachers are the most important teachers of his entire school career, so it makes no sense whatsoever that these are the worst paid teachers in the field.

I sometimes teach graduate students who are pursuing an MEd in Reading and Literacy. All of my grad students are seasoned K-12 teachers, most of them are much older and have been teaching much longer than me, yet when I taught high school I *always* earned more money than the elementary school teachers. Some of these women had been teaching for close to (or over) 20 years, and they weren't even making close to 50K a year. And I live in a pretty affluent area.

*Some districts have one salary schedule for ALL of their teachers K-12, but that is not the norm around here.

Thanks Haven. I've never heard of a district having a different salary schedule for different grade levels.

The SAU I work for is a bit wacky. We're comprised of two towns with three elementary schools, a middle school and a high school between them. My school is in one town and all the other schools are in the other town. Teachers at my school get paid so much lower than the ones in the other town. It's not fair, considering we fall under the same SAU. One huge difference though is that my school's town has no industry and it's very small. I wish we were all paid the same but I don't see that happening.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

MC -- you have two formal conferences per year with your sons' teachers? We only have one, and that's around the first quarter, right after the first report card goes home. Of course, we can often ask for another conference with particular parents if need arises during the year. I think it makes sense to have three -- one in Nov., one in March, and one before school gets out in June.

Yes, and it sounds like parents are lucky at my kids' school to have two. One in the fall and one in the spring. I've also been told by teachers that I can request a final year conference. I didn't do so last year because it didn't appear to be a need, but this year, there will be because of him being in the 5/6 class and he's doing the 6th grade work (except for math) and next year it's almost if he's going to be taking 6th again so it's recommended he stay in the split or he'll be extremely bored, but it'd be nice if his final year of elementary included a class of his peers rather than only 11 other 5th graders and then the rest being 6th.

I'm also REALLY confused by what is expected of him...hopefully curriculum night clears that up or I'll be emailing the teacher every day.

I hope you get it figured out soon, MC. I usually offer the chance for parents to have a mid year and end of year conference in addition to the one we're expected to do. I'm always surprised at how many parents don't sign up for the mid year or spring conference. I guess it's probably because if I haven't reported any issues, many parents don't see the need.

Zoe - this thread prompted me to go in and talk to my son's teacher after school today. I pretty much heard what I expected. That he's doing fine acedemically, but the 5/6 split is not a good social mix for him. Having none of his friends in class has created a bit of isolation. His teacher told me the worst thing I can do is switch him to one of the standard 5th grade classes w/a friend b/c that will prevent him from preparing for middle school where he will often find none of his friends in his class, so we should keep him as is.

It was an okay conversation, but a bit of tension b/c I know that the teacher has only been at this school for two years and when teaching a split, parents are especially picky and concerned and she felt a bit defensive - very lightly, though. I think his teacher will do a good job, it's just difficult when I know my son and KNOW he doesn't like to make new friends (at school - he's fine in our neighborhood - it's just he has his clique at school) and it's not her job to create friends for him. She gave me the names of two kids whom she felt would mesh with my son and my son said no to both

I really have to VENT about how parents aren't consulted when their kids are placed in a split! Shouldn't we have a say?

 

[mrscushion]

Elementary school teachers tend to earn the lowest salaries, followed by middle and junior high schools, and then high school teachers tend to earn the highest salaries around here.* It is my professional opinion that your child's Kindergarten and 1st grade teachers are the most important teachers of his entire school career, so it makes no sense whatsoever that these are the worst paid teachers in the field.

It's like this where I live, too. Also, elementary school teachers have fewer educational requirements than high school teachers and kindergarten teachers don't go to college at all, they learn by apprenticeship. I think that's completely wrong.

 

[zoebartlett]

Elementary school teachers tend to earn the lowest salaries, followed by middle and junior high schools, and then high school teachers tend to earn the highest salaries around here.* It is my professional opinion that your child's Kindergarten and 1st grade teachers are the most important teachers of his entire school career, so it makes no sense whatsoever that these are the worst paid teachers in the field.

It's like this where I live, too. Also, elementary school teachers have fewer educational requirements than high school teachers and kindergarten teachers don't go to college at all, they learn by apprenticeship. I think that's completely wrong.

I don't understand why it's like that in your state, mscushion. Teachers need to be certified, either through traditional degrees or through alternative ways (alt. 4 comes to mind). How is it possible that kindergarten teachers don't need college degrees?

 

[mrscushion]

Elementary school teachers tend to earn the lowest salaries, followed by middle and junior high schools, and then high school teachers tend to earn the highest salaries around here.* It is my professional opinion that your child's Kindergarten and 1st grade teachers are the most important teachers of his entire school career, so it makes no sense whatsoever that these are the worst paid teachers in the field.

It's like this where I live, too. Also, elementary school teachers have fewer educational requirements than high school teachers and kindergarten teachers don't go to college at all, they learn by apprenticeship. I think that's completely wrong.

I don't understand why it's like that in your state, mscushion. Teachers need to be certified, either through traditional degrees or through alternative ways (alt. 4 comes to mind). How is it possible that kindergarten teachers don't need college degrees?

Because I live in Germany...

In any case, they are certified alright; it's just that they didn't go to university. Given how important early childhood education is, and how much research there is in the field, I think a university education would be good.

People don't go to college as much here, period -- only about a third. It's a different system, with technical training and apprenticeships. I used to think it's a better system, because people don't need to be academics, they can receive on-the-job-training and have solid careers thereafter. However, apparently because its aging population, the country will shortly face a serious shortage of university-level talent, so I guess we do need to up the number of young people going to university.

But I digress.

 

[ksinger]

MC -- you have two formal conferences per year with your sons' teachers? We only have one, and that's around the first quarter, right after the first report card goes home. Of course, we can often ask for another conference with particular parents if need arises during the year. I think it makes sense to have three -- one in Nov., one in March, and one before school gets out in June.

Yes, and it sounds like parents are lucky at my kids' school to have two. One in the fall and one in the spring. I've also been told by teachers that I can request a final year conference. I didn't do so last year because it didn't appear to be a need, but this year, there will be because of him being in the 5/6 class and he's doing the 6th grade work (except for math) and next year it's almost if he's going to be taking 6th again so it's recommended he stay in the split or he'll be extremely bored, but it'd be nice if his final year of elementary included a class of his peers rather than only 11 other 5th graders and then the rest being 6th.

I'm also REALLY confused by what is expected of him...hopefully curriculum night clears that up or I'll be emailing the teacher every day.

I hope you get it figured out soon, MC. I usually offer the chance for parents to have a mid year and end of year conference in addition to the one we're expected to do. I'm always surprised at how many parents don't sign up for the mid year or spring conference. I guess it's probably because if I haven't reported any issues, many parents don't see the need.

Zoe - this thread prompted me to go in and talk to my son's teacher after school today. I pretty much heard what I expected. That he's doing fine acedemically, but the 5/6 split is not a good social mix for him. Having none of his friends in class has created a bit of isolation. His teacher told me the worst thing I can do is switch him to one of the standard 5th grade classes w/a friend b/c that will prevent him from preparing for middle school where he will often find none of his friends in his class, so we should keep him as is.

It was an okay conversation, but a bit of tension b/c I know that the teacher has only been at this school for two years and when teaching a split, parents are especially picky and concerned and she felt a bit defensive - very lightly, though. I think his teacher will do a good job, it's just difficult when I know my son and KNOW he doesn't like to make new friends (at school - he's fine in our neighborhood - it's just he has his clique at school) and it's not her job to create friends for him. She gave me the names of two kids whom she felt would mesh with my son and my son said no to both

I really have to VENT about how parents aren't consulted when their kids are placed in a split! Shouldn't we have a say?

MC, my husband agrees with you son's teacher. I ran this scenario by him, if for no other reason than I was unsure what a 5/6 split was. He is not an elementary teacher, and of course you're in another state, but he's assuming that your son is doing 6th grade work with 6th graders, at least part of the time? Anyway, my husband has taught middleschool and highschool, so is experienced at both, so here goes....here is a REAL "what the teacher wants to tell the parent"

He points out, less gently alas, than your son's teacher, that your son's unwillingness to make new friends is really not the school's concern, beyond of course making sure he isn't showing signs of being suicidal or something like that. They are there, primarily, to teach your child, not to worry 24/7 about his emotional state of the day.

His school years - and life - is not going to get any easier as he goes along is it? Your concern for your son's happiness is the real issue here, and happiness is not what the schools are for. (As I recall from my own experience, I was totally miserable in 7th grade. The whole year. Isolated. Out of sorts. My mom didn't swoop in and try to save me from the fact that I had a hard time dealing. I just lived through it.) What could easily amount to a fleeting discomfort with a new situation could drive YOU to push for what in the end, might be detrimental to your son's academic success. Are you handicapping him by making his life too easy? You say he's doing well, don't you want that over how he feels today?

I would bet some money that if your son was happy as a clam in strictly 5th grade classes, you'd be upset that he wasn't being given challenging enough course work. You're asking too much, especially of the public schools -to provide both academic rigor AND make sure that your son is happy. It sounds like your school system is at least acknowledging that your son is beyond his grade, and offering him the chance to do coursework beyond his grade. Sounds like they're doing a pretty good job to me.

Bottom line, excellence is often uncomfortable. It is unconcerned with happiness. It requires work, work that has nothing to do with how you feel about it at a single moment in time. Muscles, both physical and mental, are developed by doing hard work, tearing, and healing. YOU need to decide - do you want academic rigor and excellence or perpetual happiness for your child, because you can't have both. Period.

Like it or loathe it, the public school system is this country is based on the industrial model - it is geared to averages - and teaching ALL children. If you want personalized attention to the level that your seem to, you need to add it yourself. Either add the extra material at home so your son can stay happy in 5th grade, or pay for a tutor who will do exactly as you direct.

 

[zoebartlett]

Oops, I thought you were in the US, mscushion! Sorry about that. It's interesting to learn about the education system in other parts of the world.

MC -- When you say "5/6 split," I take that to mean that your son is in a multi-age classroom with both 5th and 6th graders. I've worked in a school where we had a lot of multi-age classes, as well as looping classrooms (the teacher stayed with her class for two years and then went back down to the lower of the two grades for another 'cycle') and traditional classrooms. The multi-age classes are very interesting because there's so much going on at any given time. I think there's a different level of learning in these classrooms than there is in traditional classrooms.

If you don't mind me saying so, I can see where your son's teacher is coming from. It sounds like she's trying to foster/encourage additional friendships between your son and his classmates besides the friendships he already has. I don't see anything wrong with that. He might get to know some of his classmates in a different way, and he'd at least interact with others he might not usually interact with. I read your comments and I thought it could be a good thing to try to broaden his horizons. That's just my take on it anyway. I'm sorry you were frustrated.

Ksinger -- That's interesting that your husband feels that it's not a teacher's responsibility to worry about their students' emotional state and happiness. I think that's a really important part of teaching. Not worrying so much as just being there and helping kids express themselves in all ways and helping them feel safe and that it's okay to take risks. To me, taking a child's emotional state into account when thinking about classroom dynamics is very important. I'm not talking about coddling. That happens far too often I think, and I think it just looks silly when you're talking about an older child especially. By the way, MC, I'm not saying that I think you're coddling your son. I'm actually thinking of parents I know who step in and try to fix everything for their child without letting him/her do things independently and figure things out on their own.

 

[Haven]

Elementary school teachers tend to earn the lowest salaries, followed by middle and junior high schools, and then high school teachers tend to earn the highest salaries around here.* It is my professional opinion that your child's Kindergarten and 1st grade teachers are the most important teachers of his entire school career, so it makes no sense whatsoever that these are the worst paid teachers in the field.

It's like this where I live, too. Also, elementary school teachers have fewer educational requirements than high school teachers and kindergarten teachers don't go to college at all, they learn by apprenticeship. I think that's completely wrong.

THAT'S something I've never heard before! That's pretty crazy, actually.

You have to do a lot of work to become a teacher in Illinois.

Okay, I'm going to share details about my state's certification requirements because I think it's really interesting, and might shed some light on how much it actually takes to become and remain a teacher here.

In Illinois all K-12 teachers must first meet minimum certification reqs for an initial teaching cert.
The Initial teaching cert is for teachers with less than four years of teaching service. They must also:
- Complete an approved teacher preparation program (usually a BA or BS for those without a college degree, and a MS or MA or MEd for those with a BA or BS.)
- Pass the required state exams (Basic Skills, APT test, and then age- and content-specific test/s, varies based on certificate)

The Standard teaching cert is for teachers with four or more years of teaching service. These are valid for five years. In order to renew, teachers must complete required professional development service and submit proof to the ROE, and pay the renewal fees. (Every five years)

The Master teaching cert is for teachers who earned the National Board for Prof. Teaching Standards certification. This is valid for ten years.

Professional Development options are:
- Complete an advanced degree,
- Meet Illinois criteria for becoming highly qualified in another teaching area,
- Complete National Board for Professional Teaching Standards (NBPTS) certification process,
- Earn eight semester hours of college coursework in an education-related program,
- Earn a subsequent Illinois certificate or endorsement,
- Complete four semester hours of graduate coursework preapproved for this purpose in either Self-Assessment of Teaching Performance or NBPTS preparation, or
- Earn 120 Continuing Professional Development Units (CPDUs) in activities listed in the legislation as creditable.

So, when I decided to become a HS English teacher a few years after I earned my BA in English and American lit, I:
- Went back to school to earn a master's in secondary English ed
- Took the following state exams: basic skills test, the 6-12 APT test, the English content area exam, theatre content area exam
- Completed my field work (100 hours of observation, one semester of student teaching)
- Applied for endorsements in every area I wanted to be able to teach (for me: Drama/theatre arts, English language arts)
- Applied for NCLB Highly Qualified Status in every area I planned to teach (for me: Drama/theatre arts, English, ESL, journalism, language arts, speech)

THEN, when I wanted to teach reading I had to earn my Type 10 Initial Special Teaching Certificate, I:
- Went back to school to earn a master's in reading and literacy
- Took the following state exams: The K-12 APT test and the reading specialist exam
- Completed my field work (100 hours of practicum work outside of my own classroom)
- Applied for the cert only after I completed two years of consecutive full-time teaching in an Illinois high school
- Applied for NCLB Highly Qualified Status in my new content areas (for me: Reading, reading specialist, Title I remedial reading)

THEN, in order to maintain my certificates I have to renew my initial every four years, or apply for a standard cert when eligible and renew that every five years. Renewal involves proving that I've achieved the minimum PD requirements for each cert. EACH cert.

Of course, I left the K-12 system to teach community college two years ago and now I don't have to do any of this. I keep my certs up-to-date just in case, because I don't want to have to redo all of the work I did in order to earn them should I ever want to return to the K-12 classroom. But it is nice that I never have to do any of this anymore!

 

[Haven]

Ksinger -- That's interesting that your husband feels that it's not a teacher's responsibility to worry about their students' emotional state and happiness. I think that's a really important part of teaching. Not worrying so much as just being there and helping kids express themselves in all ways and helping them feel safe and that it's okay to take risks. To me, taking a child's emotional state into account when thinking about classroom dynamics is very important. I'm not talking about coddling. That happens far too often I think, and I think it just looks silly when you're talking about an older child especially. By the way, MC, I'm not saying that I think you're coddling your son. I'm actually thinking of parents I know who step in and try to fix everything for their child without letting him/her do things independently and figure things out on their own.

My state has been adding "Social/Emotional Teaching Standards" to the curriculum for years.
I agree with Ksinger that it's asking too much of the school to attend to your child's learning AND social and emotional growth. (Not to mention: AND sexual education, AND physical education, AND . . . well, you get the point. There was once a time when the school's were able to focus entirely on academic learning, and the parents took care of teaching their children things like morals and healthy lifestyles and how to drive. But, I digress.)

I will say that the most successful children are those who belong to families that take it upon themselves to teach their children how to be . . . human beings, and don't rely on the schools to parent for them.

 

[zoebartlett]

Oh I definitely don't think families should rely on schools to parent for them. I just know that so much of what we do in elementary school is helping kids with their social and emotional growth, as well as academic growth. I've spent many, many parent conferences discussing academic AND social/emotional issues.

 

[Haven]

Oh I definitely don't think families should rely on schools to parent for them. I just know that so much of what we do in elementary school is helping kids with their social and emotional growth, as well as academic growth. I've spent many, many parent conferences discussing academic AND social/emotional issues.

I agree with you on this one, Zoe. I think there's a line, though, and for some reason a lot of parents seem to think that it is the sole responsibility of the school to teach certain things, where I believe that is just a recipe for failure.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the parent who blames the school when her teenage daughter gets pregnant. I'm not exaggerating, this happens! Or the parent who blames the teacher that her son is behind in math, when really it is the joint responsibility of the school and the parents to make sure a student learns what he needs to learn. Kids don't just magically fall behind because of one bad teacher, it's a mixture of a mediocre teacher, plus mediocre support at home, (or neither of these but other sources of problems) etc. We can only give them the tools for learning, they have to be used and reinforced outside of the classroom if any learning is to happen. And if the parents aren't giving the support, the schools TRY THEIR BEST to make up for it, just as if the school isn't satisfying a parent's desires for her child, the parents must TRY THEIR BEST to make up for that, as well. If everyone expects someone else to get it done, nobody is going to end up doing it.

Sorry if I sounded like I was disagreeing with you, Zoe. I wasn't. I do think the social/emotional learning standards go a bit far, especially at the high school level, and they're symptomatic of a societal belief that the school should provide parenting in addition to an education. Some of these things are par for the course, such as certain social and emotional skills and experiences for elementary school students, but some of them are just plain ridiculous.