What''s the difference between Super Ideal & Ideal?

[Lord Summerisle]

when i first started looking and found this board, and was going through the tutorial... i was reading about the BICs and TIC and FICs.. and talking with Caroline, we felt that it would be great to have a really firey diamond... tho all the time i was looking i didnt come accross one that fell in that range, so settled on finding one that fell to that side of the TIC - but then i feel for one that came slap bang in the center of the AGS0 cut box - go figure.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/12/2005 6:43:44 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Hey Storm - FIC''s are hard to find only for 1 reason - labs slap a warning comment - Crown angle over 35

or over 36 etc.


I have yet to meet a cutter who would not like the option to cut them when the rough screams for it.

The yields on some makeables can be so much higher they more than double their profits - if the stones were not discounted to -48 back (like one on its way to me now)

Interesting.
The very few that have been posted here over the years didnt have that kind of discount attached at the consumer level.

 

[Regular Guy]

Just to go with this recent theme...since there''s such sensitivity for crown and pavilion measurements, such that down to the 10th of a degree, the difference can matter substantially...wouldn''t there by any way for either the cutter, or the diamond seeker, to identify those diamonds...even with today''s systems...where the crown is specifically between 35.5 and 35.9? My accidental find at 35.8 does not have the GIA warning, but does come in as an FIC.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/12/2005 11:31:10 AM
Author: Regular Guy

...since there''s such sensitivity for crown and pavilion measurements, such that down to the 10th of a degree, the difference can matter substantially...

Are you sure ?

 

[Regular Guy]

I don''t know. What do you think?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/12/2005 11:53:31 AM
Author: Regular Guy
I don''t know. What do you think?

On the thread down your link there''s a post of mine agreeing that 1 degree is relevant: I am merely citing what Paul says a couple of posts above.

I don''t think I could split it any further - it sort of hurts

Interestingly, none of the cut grading systems cares to disclose their level of sensitivity. At least, not that I know of. So much for disclosure

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

good point Ira.

I believe to get the 35 warning the stone must be over 36, and to get the 36 warning it must be over 37 degree crown angle.
Sounds stoopid - but perhaps someone can confirm it for me.
The thing is GIA do not make stuff like this clear and transperent

Date: 3/12/2005 11:31:10 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Just to go with this recent theme...since there''s such sensitivity for crown and pavilion measurements, such that down to the 10th of a degree, the difference can matter substantially...wouldn''t there by any way for either the cutter, or the diamond seeker, to identify those diamonds...even with today''s systems...where the crown is specifically between 35.5 and 35.9? My accidental find at 35.8 does not have the GIA warning, but does come in as an FIC.

 

[Regular Guy]

The point may be moot, if a) the cutter''s just target the center, and b) there''s no accountable system other than...effectively...Pricescope, for searching on these things (but, I have to think when a customer goes to one of the jewelers on this board, and says, get me an FIC/diamond with crown beyond 35.5, they will have resources?, no?). Having just searched among I think all diamonds on the search by cut database here (just over 500) that are VS2/SI 1, the range in angles mostly vary by 1.6 degrees, from 33.7 - 35.3, with one at (not over) 35.5 and it''s a TIC.

Can jewelers ask their distributors for diamonds with certain angles? When they do, what does the distributor do to carry out the request?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It is indeed a sad state of affairs Ira.

It is no wonder De beers wants to rid the world of dealers and intermediataires.

As Martin Rap Dancer say's - add value, or die

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/12/2005 6:43:44 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Hey Storm - FIC''s are hard to find only for 1 reason - labs slap a warning comment - Crown angle over 35
or over 36 etc.

I have yet to meet a cutter who would not like the option to cut them when the rough screams for it.
The yields on some makeables can be so much higher they more than double their profits - if the stones were not discounted to -48 back (like one on its way to me now)

Garry
can you please post the specs on this stone when you get hold of it. still haven''t seen one yet.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/12/2005 11:31:10 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Just to go with this recent theme...since there''s such sensitivity for crown and pavilion measurements, such that down to the 10th of a degree, the difference can matter substantially...wouldn''t there by any way for either the cutter, or the diamond seeker, to identify those diamonds...even with today''s systems...where the crown is specifically between 35.5 and 35.9? My accidental find at 35.8 does not have the GIA warning, but does come in as an FIC.

RG
can you post the specs on this stone.do you like it? does it really show alot of fire?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

that one is on an airplane somewhere.

I just saw another on the same manufacuturers b2B site.
53%table 36 crown 40.3 pav

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/13/2005 1:41

3 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
that one is on an airplane somewhere.

I just saw another on the same manufacuturers b2B site.
53%table 36 crown 40.3 pav

Garry
do these FIC really shoot out more fire? compare to a TIC.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/9/2005 3:35:15 PM
Author: DiamondExpert

Thus, within the current AGS grading system, all Super-Ideal stones would all have to be AGS0''s.

Sorry if I''m hopping in here late but it''s the weekend and I have a lil time to catch up on these boards.

Gary ... while I would not argue that "super ideals" *should* fall within the parameters of "triple ideal" (I believe they should), you do have precision cut diamonds like EightStar that do not always get the triple ideal status yet are considered "super ideal" due to the perfection of their optical symmetry and light return. From the time I started dealing in these cuts "super ideals" *in my mind* consisted of 2 primary components. 1. Superior 3d or optical symmetry and 2. Superior light return. GIA Ex/Ex or AGS "0" polish & symmetry is nice but not intrinsic to the overally and key properties of a diamonds optics. ie. If I took a stone with just VG/VG polish/symmetry that *is* a precision cut H&A cut to cherry specs and put it alongside another AGS "0" that is cut bogus (according to the current grading standards), the VG/VG will be a more beautiful stone. While this example is a rarity it does happen. It is true that most of your H&A''s you''ll find among the AGS "0" and GIA Ex/Ex but even then it''s only a certain small percentage.

Regular guy... in answer to your question of *how can you tell the differences* you need to eyeball and see them all side by side. Diamonds with known killer combo''s. I''ll be the first to admit that there are some standard ideals that can hold their own in certain light conditions but if you''re looking for max performance in *all* light conditions H&A''s cut to certain specs or one of the 2nd gen Super Ideals is the way to go. We often ship 2 and sometimes 3 flavors of rounds for people to see and compare. If you''re anywhere close to the NY area you''re welcome to take a pepsi challenge and compare the various flavors of super ideals.

I''m sorry if any of these points were addressed already. I''ll read the rest of the thread before posting any more here.

Peace,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/9/2005 4:29

6 PM
Author: Regular Guy

''HCA is not for final ''selection'' because it does not grade symmetry and minor facets...''

I understood the general meaning of ''SuperIdeal'' is consistent with the constraints of the HCA,

Heh... can''t help myself. Ok ... I didn''t finish reading the thread yet but ...

Just because a diamond gets a *great* HCA score does not mean it''s a *winner*. I see many people on the forum recommend certain stones based on HCA scores and I just shake my head sometimes. I''ve seen stones with great HCA scores that I wouldn''t touch with a 10 foot pole. The HCA does not only NOT account for minor facets and optical symmetry but it also does not account for contrast. There are some stones that are rewarded with an extremely high HCA score that poop out in diffuse light conditions. So... for clarification (again sorry if someone addressed this point already), but a great HCA score does not guarantee that the stone will be *super ideal*.

I have to say ... even for myself the term has taken on new meaning. At first they were H&A''s with excellent FireScope images. Next they were H&A''s that not only had good IS/FS/LS images but also had excellent B''scope results. After learning that none of these devices accounted for appearance in diffuse light conditions my own definition began to encompass diamond appearance in diffuse light and ambient light conditions as well and there are certain combo''s of cut where you don''t have to sacrifice one metric to get the other. Of course those are gonig to be the hardest and rarest to find. So ... to this Gman a super ideal would have to emcompass the superior optical symmetry combined with superior performance in all light conditions or at leas the 3 majors (direct, diffuse and ambient).

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/10/2005 11:15:47 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
No Ira, you are not the only one reading here.

Your point is that, when AGS introduces its new system, the new AGS-0-ideals will closely match what we now try to distinguish as ''super-ideal''.

Well, you might be right, although the new AGS-0-round will leave a lot of room for personal taste. In this new system, there are possibilities of having a 0 with table sizes ranging from 47 to 61%. Although all will have incredible light performance, there is a matter of taste, that comes into play.

One of these particular tastes might be that for the H&A-pattern. Each new AGS-0-stone will probably show a pleasing contrast-pattern, but this will not always be the H&A-pattern, that we know best now.

Peter Yantzer gave a presentation on Monday in Antwerp on the new systems, and I talked to some other cutters afterwards. Genereal consensus is that cutting a new AGS-0 will clearly be more difficult, and like I said months ago, the total supply of AGS-0 will become less.

For the vendors, now specialising in ''super-ideals'', it will soon become a matter of securing their supply. Although I think that most cutters-suppliers prefer to work with retailers, who know and understand the specifics of their product. I think that the virtual list of consignment-goods with AGS-0-reports will disappear. Demand will be clearly higher than supply, I foresee, and no cutter will see the benefit of keeping goods in stock and on a virtual list.

Here is some other background-info: The first reports for rounds will be issued on June 1st. In the first months, cutters can choose whether they want the old or the new report, but within months, the old report will disappear.

For the princess-cuts, the first reports will be issued on May 1st. Our first princesses are on their way to AGS now, and we should get their result by the end of this week. Exciting times.

Live long,

That is exciting Paul. I also like the fact that the new ideals will be emcompassing a broad range of proportions. It still places the empahsis on the professoinal who can point out and demonstrate these differences to their clients, helping them get into the *flavor* they *favor* most.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/10/2005 3:29:10 PM
Author: mdx

Hi Ira
I think you will find in the final analysis that “Super Ideal Cuts” have nothing to do with AGS,

Its more as Paul suggests a personal preference in a range of dimensions within the Ideal range. Possibly a marketing clause, Like “my Ideal cut is better than yours because these dimensions are known to be good performers based on my years of experience”

But wait look what’s coming, The Super Super Ideal Cut with extra dollop

Just a laugh

Johan

Too funny Johan. One correction though ... no person can say their super ideal is *better* since *better* is subjective. I think the expression *one of the best* would be better suited terminology.

Peace,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/10/2005 7:44:45 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I use the term ''super ideal'' on my appraisals when a round brilliant cut has:

1. An AGS 0 ranking
2. Hearts & Arrows optical symmetry
3. Excellent Idealscope image
4. Excellent DiamCalc numbers

If any one of these ingredients are missing I don''t use the term ''super ideal''.

Not that I''m trying to promote any brand (especially one that I don''t carry) but would you not consider an 8* a super ideal Rich?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/11/2005 12:57:28 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
The stone should have great proportions - but again you''all seen to think these need to be Tolkowsky''ish because you all got brainwashed. If tolkowsky did not have his maths rounding errors, and choose a different starting angle, you could all have thought that 33/41.05 or 36/40.45 was theideal crown and pavilion.

How funny and also HOW TRUE!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/11/2005 6:52:10 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
but what we are doing is taking the ability to measure, beyond the ability of Human comprehension - rather like the twit that is concerned about the chip that can only be seen under 60x power.

If gem microscopes had 5000x power there woud be no satisfied customers?

LOL... not so mate. Peoplel still purchase diamonds that are not IF. While I completely understand what you''re saying mate ... you see ... it is the nature of this industry to analyze to the Nth degree. We''ve been seeing prices fluctuate TREMENDOUSLY on issues that people can''t see for decades before cutting has been analyzed to the degree it is by gemologists today. If clarity and color are seperated in value by slight nuances that can''t be detected to the eye, why should cut be any different? IMO it is cut that should be held to the highest constraints since it is cut that dictates the appearance more than anything. Having said that however I DO BELIEVE in analysis paralysis.

 

[Rhino]

The question becomes if they are all awesome diamonds does the personality of the diamond matter?
My answer is yes.
The personality of a diamond is what makes a diamond speak to someone more than another would.

Excellent summary strm. I never cease to be amazed when I see the reactions of people and their preferences when comparing 2-5 different flavors of super ideals. What''s funny is once they think they''ve settled on a certain cutting style I''ll whip out a different one ... when I hear the lady gasp I know she just changed her mind ... again!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/11/2005 11:57:41 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Remember the arrows discussion? You underestimated human comprehension there too.

Are you seriously unable to make these distinctions yourself Garry? - Or maybe you just read too much of what you write...

(Now don''t go Oz on me - I''m just ribbing you)

Nope ... it''s because Gary is enjoying too much of that Aussie wine! hehe

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/13/2005 2:40:59 AM
Author: Rhino

Date: 3/10/2005 7:44:45 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I use the term ''super ideal'' on my appraisals when a round brilliant cut has:

1. An AGS 0 ranking
2. Hearts & Arrows optical symmetry
3. Excellent Idealscope image
4. Excellent DiamCalc numbers

If any one of these ingredients are missing I don''t use the term ''super ideal''.

Not that I''m trying to promote any brand (especially one that I don''t carry) but would you not consider an 8* a super ideal Rich?

Rhino
i have seen some 8* that isn''t ex/ex on the gia cert,so would you still call these super ideal?

 

[strmrdr]

What Id like to see and have toyed with the idea of building one would be a computer controlled light box with a light meter that put controlled amounts of light on a diamond in direct, indirect, and mixed light conditions then builds a collage of 45 pictures of the diamond.
5 light positions 3 light conditions (45 total images)
That would be the ultimate tool for seeing the personality of a diamond long distance.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 3/13/2005 3:21:11 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Rhino
i have seen some 8* that isn''t ex/ex on the gia cert,so would you still call these super ideal?

I can not answer for Rhino, but I would and I do.

EightStars are cut for internal symmetry and light performance, not external. When you reach the exact balance for each facet, you must stop, regardless of whether or not perfect external symmetry has been achieved. Otherwise you end up with a great H&A stone, but NOT an EightStar.

I once had a pair of three quarters each EightStars that were within a point of each other, both F colors and both VS grades. One had Excellent Excellent the other Good, Very Good. I look at diamonds for a living, and I will be darned if I could tell the difference once they were out of their papers. I got real good at measuring the depth to tell which was which. (It was quicker than weighing them.)

I sold them in an incredibly fantastic pair of earrings, and now that they are mounted the only way I can tell one from the other is with the microscope. Personally believe that many people over analyse the numbers and fail to look at diamonds to judge them. I realize that this is largely necessary when buying sight unseen, but should not be an issue when dealing face to face.

I loved Rhino''s comment that when he pulls out a new Super Ideal and the lady gasps he knows she has changed her mind, again. I guarantee you that the change was based on the idividual personality and visual appeal of the diamond, not the numbers.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 3/13/2005 7:24:57 AM
Author: strmrdr
What Id like to see and have toyed with the idea of building one would be a computer controlled light box with a light meter that put controlled amounts of light on a diamond in direct, indirect, and mixed light conditions then builds a collage of 45 pictures of the diamond.
5 light positions 3 light conditions (45 total images)
That would be the ultimate tool for seeing the personality of a diamond long distance.

If you build it we will come!

Wink

P.S.Can I be one of your beta and delta testers?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Wink sometimes the Sarin output that GIA use grades the symmetry as bad on an 8* - it has nil to do with what we know effects beauty.

You have read the symetry article on the MSU site?

You light meter will tell you a diamond with no scintillation is better than one with some Storm. Remeber the chess board from the ideal-scope newsletters?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/13/2005 2

7:15 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

You light meter will tell you a diamond with no scintillation is better than one with some Storm. Remeber the chess board from the ideal-scope newsletters?

Yep I remember and in not going there.

In my idea the light meter would just set the light levels for repeatability not measure anything the diamond does.
The images would be the output not any kind of scale or grade.
Think overkill photo system rather than a diamond tester.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/13/2005 10:19:50 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 3/13/2005 7:24:57 AM

Author: strmrdr

What Id like to see and have toyed with the idea of building one would be a computer controlled light box with a light meter that put controlled amounts of light on a diamond in direct, indirect, and mixed light conditions then builds a collage of 45 pictures of the diamond.

5 light positions 3 light conditions (45 total images)

That would be the ultimate tool for seeing the personality of a diamond long distance.

If you build it we will come!


Wink


P.S.Can I be one of your beta and delta testers?

Yep if I ever get the time and money to build it you will be on my list of testers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

What if CZ outperformed diamond?